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Balor01
2010-06-22, 02:32 AM
I myself feel monsters are way too easy to kill when PCs get high lvls (poor monsters) and like to play with improving them. I would like to know if there is somewhere a thread/sticky regarding all this, since it is an experimentation I like very much.

If not, this may actually be a starting thread.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-22, 02:56 AM
I myself feel monsters are way too easy to kill when PCs get high lvls (poor monsters) and like to play with improving them. I would like to know if there is somewhere a thread/sticky regarding all this, since it is an experimentation I like very much.

If not, this may actually be a starting thread.

Well, the problem is, How powerful a monster needs to be depends on the strength of the party. Just because four wizards can deal with an army of Balors doesn't mean four Monks can do the same.

Balor01
2010-06-22, 03:15 AM
@Kyuubi
True. But monks are not a threat. Wizards however ... are the reason I like my modifications.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-22, 03:23 AM
Even then there's a large difference between a blaster wizard and a gate/shapechange -16 level enervation incantatrix.

The problem with "Upgrading" D&D 3.5 monsters is the upgrades are pretty situational.

Thurbane
2010-06-22, 03:30 AM
The "non associated class" rules are quite abusable. A 6th level Minotaur Cleric, for example, is only CR 7.

CubeB
2010-06-22, 03:37 AM
Upgrades should be designed around the party facing them. The ideal monster is one that is memorable, provides a fair challenge, but isn't impossible for the party to defeat.

That being said, I like this book:

The Monster's Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Monsters-Handbook-Sourcebook-Creating-Customizing/dp/1589940768)

My favorite template is Dire Humanoid. My DM set us up against a Dire Draconic Kobold Sorcerer, who we mistook for a Lizardfolk at first because he was so fraggin' huge.

Also, Feats, Class Levels, and Magic items are a great way to improve monsters. Try giving them Brute Gauntlets (+2 to STR for one round 3 times a day, basically a weaker, cheaper version of Gauntlets of Ogre Power), or an Amulet of Mighty Fists (Bonus to Natural Weapon Attacks).

Runestar
2010-06-22, 03:59 AM
Tougher in what sense? Too little hp making them vulnerable to being one-shotted? Too poor AC/saves? Too little damage?

One way is to take advantage of the non-associated class rules, piling tons of extra HD on the base monster (which coupled with their good con scores, should give you tons of hp). Of course, if you go this route, this means that just about every unmodified monster in the MM will be deemed too weak for their cr. Why have a wiz15 human lich npc, when you can have a frost giant wiz15 for the same cr17? :smallwink:

Balor01
2010-06-22, 04:02 AM
I am approaching the thing from this aspect: Surely, the archenemy of monsters is lvl 20 wizard. And ... hmmm. Could I take a role of a Patron of Monsters? (he he) Anyway, here is a few tips on my idea of improving, say, tarrasque. Mr T. is a nice enough creature, but may be eaten alive by optimized lvl 14 wiz. thus, following additions:

- fly 400 ft. (good)
- spell-like ability At will— Antimagic field on self (CL20)
- Artifact seed - special organ, known as Artifact seed makes mr T. grow a small crystal-like outgrowth of metallic nature that reacts to disjunction spell similarly as an artifact. (if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.))

If Artifact seed is destroyed, a new one grows in 1d4 days.

So, after these changes Mr. T may fly, is covered in AMF and if an attempt is made to disjunct him, caster may lose his spelcassting abilities for ever. Now that is a bit better. IMHO.

Also: Epic abilities.

Runestar
2010-06-22, 04:13 AM
AMF actually hoses fighters more than spellcasters. Fighters lose all the benefits of their gear if ever caught within its radius (and they must, if they rely on melee). Say hi to being grappled and swallowed whole, or simply falling to a full-attack augmented by all-out power attack.

Wizards still have a variety of options that punch right through AMFs, not least of all the damnable orb spells, but also PAOing giant uranium balls to drop on them for millions of damage or gating in pyroclastic dragons.

A DC25 will save is negligible for spellcasters with a good will save, not that there is ever any reason to disjunct it.

So yeah, anything you want to implement to nerf casters, bear in mind that it will just as readily nerf the other classes just as much, if not more. :smalleek:

Balor01
2010-06-22, 04:29 AM
Wizards still have a variety of options that punch right through AMFs, not least of all the damnable orb spells, but also PAOing giant uranium balls to drop on them for millions of damage or gating in pyroclastic dragons.

Epic number of HD in my experience solves the orb problem. As for uranium balls ... according to my experience, this is just rulebreaking and mostly unusable if DM is precise regarding rules(making the item, transporting the item, etc.). As for summoned monsters ... even such nasties as pyroclastic may be defeated with some decent saves and AC.

As for DC 25 it is there mainly as a scare factor. Or maybe it should be changed to hmmm, 50?

Runestar
2010-06-22, 05:42 AM
As for DC 25 it is there mainly as a scare factor. Or maybe it should be changed to hmmm, 50?

Well, first you have to give me a good reason for the wizard to want to use disjunction on the tarrasque, which should not be using any magic gear, and can reactivate its AMF at-will (so there is little point to dispelling it just once).


Epic number of HD in my experience solves the orb problem. As for uranium balls ... according to my experience, this is just rulebreaking and mostly unusable if DM is precise regarding rules(making the item, transporting the item, etc.). As for summoned monsters ... even such nasties as pyroclastic may be defeated with some decent saves and AC.

Yeah, 90 damage from a maximized orb of acid doesn't seem like much when the big T has slightly under 900hp and regenerates at an insane rate, but that would still be better than a fighter effectively using masterwork gear. Basically, my point was that the more you try to revise said monster to defeat a wizard, the more you just end up screwing over the rest of the party. So it is not just the wizard who "isn't having fun".

The trick with uranium beach balls is to hover over the tarrasque, use PAO to transmute any ordinary lead ball into uranium, and let gravity do the rest (not forgetting the borked throwing damage rules in complete warrior).

The great wyrm pyroclastic dragon is cr21 (and we know how under-cr'ed dragons tend to be). It should be able to stand toe to toe with the tarrasque (remember that AMF also disables the tarrasque's dr/epic, so both are on equal footing here), or in the very least, weaken it to the extent that the rest of the party can mop up (say with a timely application of metamagicked orbs? During this time, the fighter is likely still hiding under the wizard's skirt because he is likely dead the instance he so much as comes within reach of the tarrasque. :smallamused:

Anyways, if you want to improve monsters, I believe it can be done within the rules, without making the monsters seem too ridiculous or outlandish. Refeating them is the first thing, coupled with class lvs/non-associated class rule and kitting them out with appropriate magic gear to shore up their weaknesses (of which MIC excels).

Perhaps you can suggest a base creature you would like to improve (please, no tarrasques, I think that topic has been done to death this week) and we will see what we can do with it? :smallsmile:

Runestar
2010-06-22, 06:51 PM
I also find that tome of battle classes seem to mesh nicely with high-HD monsters, assuming you rule that racial HD counts towards initiator lv. For example, an elder elemental swordsage5 would be cr16, have over 300hp and be capable of dishing out a fair amount of hurt with its maneuvers (of which it can access up to 9th lv). Take that, cornugon. :smallamused:

Here are a few general observations:

1) Monsters heavily reliant on the full-attack action are less effective if they are denied said opportunity, eg: have to move about a lot, or hit by slow.

2) Not really that much hp, making them vulnerable to a combined nova effect from the party. Which is possible even without going out of your way to optimize them.

3) Solos don't really work, because they lose out in action economy and are too vulnerable to status effects. 4e apparently faces a similar problem as well. You probably want some mooks to help soak up punishment.

4) Combat maneuvers have an unfair advantage when executed by monsters, due to their overwhelming size, str and bab advantages. All this more this encourages players to become immune to them (eg: freedom of movement vs grapple), ultimately rendering them moot.

5) Some special attacks remove a player from the game for too long a duration. Eg: mindflayer stuns for 3d4 rounds, sea hag dazes for 3 days!

More may come later as I gather my thoughts. Opinions?

Balor01
2010-06-23, 02:07 AM
So ...
1) haste (Ex) at will as free action?
2) additional 100HD?
3) Minions are good, but what kind? Maybe some spell-spamming yahoos? Hmmm. Invisible etheral, flying sea-hags?
4) Not relevant here IMHO. Point is to make that cca-150-dmg-dealing monster that ends the contest in one shot. So maneuvering is IMHo really not the crucial point here.
5) Again, contingency, celerity and alike. Question is, how to actually make sea hag hit the damnable wiz?

Oslecamo
2010-06-23, 02:43 AM
Not completed, but here's my guide for DMs to improve monsters against optimized parties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133604) wich has plenty of advice regarding HD advancement, feat and skill point changing, monster equipment, classes and Prcs and other usefull tricks.