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Ravingdork
2010-06-22, 10:35 AM
The following series of questions deal exclusively with shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, greater shadow conjuration, greater shadow evocation, and shades, and are not to be mistaken for any other form of "shadow magic."

Numbered for your convenience:

1) What does the shadow conjuration spell mean, precisely, when it says "the shadow creature's AC bonuses are just one-fifth as large?" Is it referring to the creature's entire AC value? Or do you sum up all the bonuses from natural armor, deflection, armor, etc. and just divide by 5? Or do you divide each value by 5? So that a +1 natural armor/+3 armor creature would only have +0/+1 to AC, respectively?

2) Can you cast a shadowed mage armor or similar spell upon yourself with automatic success since you know it to have real elements? Or do you have to roll percentile even then? Or is it an automatic failure since you have undeniable proof that it isn't real?

3) If I summon a shadowed flying creature to rescue a falling friend, and he has adventured with me long enough to know I utilize illusions that are only partially real, how would he interact with the summoned creature (see #2 for context)?

4) Shadow evocation says "If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur," as well as "Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect." Why the inconsistency between these two statements? Shouldn't effects that ride along with damage be automatically negated on a successful save, or else a lone effect without damage have a percentage chance of working regardless of save?

5) If I use shadow evocation to emulate a daylight spell, and 3 of the 4 people in the area believe it to be real, what happens? Does the entire effect have a chance to fail for everybody just because the 4th person saw it as an illusion? Does it only risk failing for the 4th person, leaving him in the dark and others able to see? Or does it work for everyone regardless since light is light? What if I duplicated darkness instead? Would anything change?

6) Is the shades spell limited to just sorcerer/wizard spells of the creation/summoning subschools like its predecessors? Or can it actually duplicate such things as healing and teleportation spells from other classes? Its wording has a distinct lack of similarity to its weaker cousins where class limitations and subschools are concerned.

7) I use shades to imitate the HEROIC FEAST spell for a banquet I am hosting (which is debatable to begin with, I know). My friends and I partake and some of them make their saves and some don't. Does anyone get any sustenance from the shadow food? What about the bonuses? Why or why not? Also who?

8) How would you rule in the following situation?

Say I created a "shadow wall of ice" in order to stop my enemies' advancement. Naturally, when they stop to feel it out or hack through it they all get Will saves to disbelieve.

But let's say one of them passes his save and realizes it is illusory. Rather than tell his allies (which would get them a second save with a +4 bonus) he simply charges on through.

The others clearly see him go through the wall, though they may not know how he did it.

Would you say that, that is "definitive proof" and have them all automatically pass their saves? Or would they stand around in confusion, possibly trying to hack through the wall--or attempting to simply try and run through it like their friend (only to break their noses)?

It would be hilarious if they failed the second save too (if there even is one).

"Hey guys! Over here! It looks like Joey found a passage through!"

*runs toward wall where Joey disappeared*

CRACK!

"Ack! Vye nose!"



That's all he questions I have for now, but I may post more of them if I come up with any.



Also, in order to help with question #6, I have compiled a list of all the spells that shadow magic can duplicate. Those spells with an asterisk may be debatable.

SHADOW CONJURATION
Acid arrow
Acid splash
Black tentacles
Fog cloud
Glitterdust
Grease
Mage armor
Minor creation
Mount
Obscuring mist
Phantom steed
Secure shelter
Sepia snake sigil
Sleet storm
Solid fog
Stinking cloud
Summon Monster I – IV
Summon swarm
Unseen servant
Web

GREATER SHADOW CONJURATION
(as shadow conjuration, plus…)
Acid fog
Cloudkill
Mage’s faithful hound
Major creation
Secret chest
Summon Monster V - VI
Wall of iron
Web wall of stone

SHADES
(as greater shadow conjuration, plus…)
Breath of Life*
Create food and water*
Creeping doom*
Cure light / moderate / serious / critical wounds*
Delay poison*
Dimension door*
Fire seeds*
Greater planar ally*
Greater planar binding*
Greater restoration*
Greater teleport*
Heal mount*
Heal*
Hero’s feast*
Incendiary cloud
Insect Plague*
Instant Summons
Lesser planar ally*
Lesser planar binding*
Lesser restoration*
Mage’s magnificent mansion
Mass cure light / moderate / serious / critical wounds*
Maze*
Neutralize Poison*
Phase door
Planar ally*
Planar binding*
Plane shift*
Raise dead*
Refuge*
Regenerate*
Remove blindness / deafness*
Remove disease*
Remove paralysis*
Restoration*
Resurrection*
Stabilize*
Summon instrument*
Summon Monster VII - IX
Summon Nature’s Ally I – IX
Teleport object*
Teleport*
Transport via plants*
Trap the Soul
Tree stride*
Wall of Thorns*
Word of recall*

* Not a sorcerer or wizard spell or not of the creation or summoning subschools.

SHADOW EVOCATION
Burning hands
Continual flame
Dancing lights
Darkness
Daylight
Fire shield
Fireball
Flaming sphere
Flare
Floating disk
Gust of wind
Ice storm
Light
Lightning bolt
Magic missile
Ray of frost
Resilient sphere
Scorching ray
Shatter
Shocking grasp
Shout
Tiny Hut
Wall of fire
Wall of ice
Wind wall

GREATER SHADOW EVOCATION
(as shadow evocation, plus…)
Chain lightning
Cone of cold
Contingency
Delayed blast fireball
Force cage
Forceful hand
Freezing sphere
Grasping hand
Interposing hand
Mage’s sword
Prismatic Spray
Sending
Wall of force

Ravingdork
2010-06-22, 02:27 PM
Does nobody know the answers? :smallfrown:

DarthCyberWolf
2010-06-22, 04:21 PM
Hmm…. Tricky. I’d say; Numbered for your convenience!

1) It’s probably just the bonuses, not the entire AC.

2) It might make whoever is attacking you roll their save to disbelieve it. If they make it, the spell might only have a [%] chance of actually protecting you.

3) I think this is the difference between Shadow and normal Illusion. The shadow spell is, at least partially, real. It should be able to catch the falling person.

4) I don’t know why it says that, but it probably shouldn’t just have no effect. Up to the DM I guess.

5) Up to the interpretation above. Following what it says, it would work for all but the fourth person. Personally I’d say it should work for those that failed the save, and only have a [%] chance of working for the one who made the save. But still up to the DM.

6) It’s probably just like Shadow Conjuration, but some could see it as being able to do more. It is a 9th level spell.

7) If they fail the save, they’re affected by it. If they make the save, there’s only a [%] chance they’ll get it.

8) I’d rule that it’s like a summoned creature in that they wouldn’t be able to walk through it at all, save or not. However, it would only have [%] of it’s HP making it more fragile.


But this is just my opinion. I could be completely wrong.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-22, 05:03 PM
1: Yes its a fraction of the bonus so 1/5 of +10 would be +2
2: A shadowed mage armor would provide you with a +4 AC bonus, agaisnt creatures that disbelieve the spell its 20% likely to work
3: A summoned creature is real, its there, even against someone who disbelieves the creature it still deals damage when it strikes, just much less your friend is fine. A shadow wall however he might just fall right through it.

4): there is no inconsistency it covers a variety of effects,
a spell that deals damage and has a secondary effect covers the first part, a blast of fire that also blinds you for 10 rounds, it be 20% the damage and 20% the duration

A completely non-damaging spell such as wall of force has no effect against creatures that disbelieve them.

5): Personally I'd say a shadow spell shouldn't be able to generate a light effect. It work but only for some people.

6): Yes it has the same limits it.

7):

8): No I wouldn't call it definitive proof, there are other magics to walk through walls or to put an illusion over a hole in a wall.
That being said

I agree with above having say a shadowed wall of ice or stone treated like summoned creatures[especially wall of stone] rather then as is.

Ravingdork
2010-06-22, 10:01 PM
Thank you for your responses. Anyone else care to weigh in?