(3.5, BBEG) Bad, Bad Breath

[AtwasAwamps]

Okay, so, extremely weird idea for a potential “BBEG” or perhaps simply world-ruiner mechanic.

Potentially, the feat “Enlarge Breath” stacks with itself. Thus, you could technically engulf the world in flames in one action, if you were willing to abandon the use of your breath weapon for a significant portion of time.

I want to create a BBEG is that is Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon, driven mad by (Something). He no longer is in tune with reality and seeks only to destroy. In this manner, he flies through space, pell-mell, crashing back and forth till he finds a world he wants to destroy, upon which point he perches and waits…years, if necessary…until the moment his breath weapon recharges. Then he lifts up, unleashes a torrent of flame that envelops the entire world with a slew of metabreath feats, and proceeds to tumble away into the nothingness of space once more, till his mindless destruction finds a target once more.

Look, I basically want to make Dragon Galactus. Or Dragon Unicron.

What do I need beyond “Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon with lots of Metabreath”? Any random ideas you guys think are cool? How about plot hooks? I just created the concept about a minute ago, but I think a party of adventurers desperately trying to stop a dragon from opening its mouth would be absolutely hilarious. This is obviously not a BBEG for an epic optimized storyline, but it could be an interesting one. Or perhaps the dragon itself is not the BBEG, but a means to an end for another BBEG, who has learned how to control the creature’s power or alter the timing it uses to unleash its assault.

Any neat ideas? I just felt like getting the ball rolling for funsies.

[Quirp]

Now you could make the dragon like an asteroit in real life. Scientists (wizards) tell you when the dragon will reach your world and since you are the only group with the ability to stop him you must try it. Actually you could start a big tournament organized by the local NPC foundation to find the one group that can distract the dragon so he spares your world (or just kill it). The tournament has the additional benefit of allowing the players to level and it might fit in many different campaigns.

[Ilmryn]

Well, once it gets known that the dragon will attack, you could hook the players into it by having them find lots of Protection from Fire items, and then have multiple desperate gangs try to rob them. In a world where Protection from Fire exist, there would logically be a despereate battle for any and all scrolls/wands/potions of it when it becomes known that ther world will be scorched. The players could get hooked up in this, and eventually sent to stop the dragon.

[Morph Bark]

Well there are 14400 rounds in a single day... you could use 14396 of those to stuff into metabreath feats and use that breath weapon once per day to do some wreckage. But with enough stackage... you could certainly make it so that he'd lie in wait for ages like that. Would probably put some pressure on whomever would be chosen (or feel chosen) to stop him within a certain time limit (i.e. until his breath would be recharged).

Cue endgame music. Anyone thinking "One-Winged Dragon"?

[Choco]

Well, once it gets known that the dragon will attack, you could hook the players into it by having them find lots of Protection from Fire items, and then have multiple desperate gangs try to rob them. In a world where Protection from Fire exist, there would logically be a despereate battle for any and all scrolls/wands/potions of it when it becomes known that ther world will be scorched. The players could get hooked up in this, and eventually sent to stop the dragon.

That would be awesome, if the whole world knew about it. The PC's can fight epic baddies all day long, but soon as they gotta do something more challenging, like dealing with a panicking mob of (now) irrational people most of them are at a loss. That is when it pays off to be evil, just kill them all then the dragon too to save yourself.

[Morph Bark]

It certainly would be... your planet would be scorched with few to remain standing, the oceans likely would have partly evaporated too.

However, to really be able to cover as much ground as possible, the dragon would have to go into space and breathe down on the earth from there, plus only half the planet would be targeted in this manner, though the breath would probably set light to many flammable things that could spread the fire to the other side of the planet.

A normal red dragon can't go into outer space though... too cold and no air. You could give it the Half-Air Elemental Template and something that gives it cold immunity. Or give it a destiny of destroying world after world and say that it was bred in the deepest depths of Pandemonium by the most vile and most powerful of the demodands, trying to prove themselves to not be the least of the fiend races. This has granted the dragon the Half-Air Elemental, Half-White Dragon and Half-Fiend templates, though of course it isn't really half-this half-that half-some and then half-more, it was just bred from pure insanity and vileness. (Unless you rule that half of a half is as powerful as half and it is a quarter of each?)

[Keld Denar]

Needs moar Strafing Breath (Dragonlance Campaign Setting).

Turns your cone into a line, with a thickness of your cone and a length of your fly speed + thickness of your cone.

Then, just amp up your Fly speed (Shadow template, Quick trait, Swift Expenditious Retreat, and I think there is an item in Draconomicon that doubles your fly speed).

I'm sure you could burn a swath of a couple square miles at least once a day to the point where nothing could possibly survive sans a couple of REALLY lucky rogues and monks.

[PId6]

Some calculations because I felt like it:

Colossal Dragon Breath Weapon: 70 ft cone, 1d4 rounds recharge
Enlarge Breath: +35 ft per +1 round recharge
Earth average radius: 20,902,231 ft
Earth average diameter: 41,804,462 ft

(41,804,462 - 70) / 35 ~= 1,194,414 rounds
1,194,414 / 10 / 24 / 365 ~= 13.6 years recharge

However, you need a bit of distance between you and the earth before breathing or else the breath weapon won't cover the entire surface of one side. That's about half again as much distance, which corresponds about linearly with the recharge, meaning it'll take about 20.4 years for the breath weapon to recharge assuming he starts ~20,902,231 ft away.

[AtwasAwamps]

Some calculations because I felt like it:

Colossal Dragon Breath Weapon: 70 ft cone, 1d4 rounds recharge
Enlarge Breath: +35 ft per +1 round recharge
Earth average radius: 20,902,231 ft
Earth average diameter: 41,804,462 ft

(41,804,462 - 70) / 35 ~= 1,194,414 rounds
1,194,414 / 10 / 24 / 365 ~= 13.6 years recharge

However, you need a bit of distance between you and the earth before breathing or else the breath weapon won't cover the entire surface of one side. That's about half again as much distance, which corresponds about linearly with the recharge, meaning it'll take about 20.4 years for the breath weapon to recharge assuming he starts ~20,902,231 ft away.

You are the best person ever.

[Amphetryon]

Some calculations because I felt like it:

Colossal Dragon Breath Weapon: 70 ft cone, 1d4 rounds recharge
Enlarge Breath: +35 ft per +1 round recharge
Earth average radius: 20,902,231 ft
Earth average diameter: 41,804,462 ft

(41,804,462 - 70) / 35 ~= 1,194,414 rounds
1,194,414 / 10 / 24 / 365 ~= 13.6 years recharge

However, you need a bit of distance between you and the earth before breathing or else the breath weapon won't cover the entire surface of one side. That's about half again as much distance, which corresponds about linearly with the recharge, meaning it'll take about 20.4 years for the breath weapon to recharge assuming he starts ~20,902,231 ft away.

Dude, you got physics in my D&D...

[Morph Bark]

Some calculations because I felt like it:

Colossal Dragon Breath Weapon: 70 ft cone, 1d4 rounds recharge
Enlarge Breath: +35 ft per +1 round recharge
Earth average radius: 20,902,231 ft
Earth average diameter: 41,804,462 ft

(41,804,462 - 70) / 35 ~= 1,194,414 rounds
1,194,414 / 10 / 24 / 365 ~= 13.6 years recharge

However, you need a bit of distance between you and the earth before breathing or else the breath weapon won't cover the entire surface of one side. That's about half again as much distance, which corresponds about linearly with the recharge, meaning it'll take about 20.4 years for the breath weapon to recharge assuming he starts ~20,902,231 ft away.

I guess we should convince someone to dare try to calculate it exactly using Pythagorean methods. :smallamused:

But at least this means that when the dragon arrives and some folks know what its up to, they'll have the time to prepare. You could even have a group of teenagers start with their adventuring when it arrives only to take it on when they're almost middle aged and the dragon is ready to play the endgame music.

Also, let's not forget to add tons of other metabreath feats. Gratuitous use of Clinging Breath and Maximize Breath will make it so that anyone without plenty of protection and hit points at least double the maximum the dragon's breath weapon deals in damage will be toast. Barring evasion and made saves of course. Add in Tempest Breath for nice effects.

On a sidenote on that many-templated idea I posted a few posts up: in combo with the Half-White Dragon stuff you could say that its half-dragon-obtained breath weapon also mixes in and deals some cold damage, perhaps causing a sort of nuclear winter (literally so) after the flames have died out. "The world shall go in fire and ice", ammirite?

[hamishspence]

I guess we should convince someone to dare try to calculate it exactly using Pythagorean methods. :smallamused:

Would a triangle, long enough to wrap all the way round the world, do it, or would it need to be a bit longer? With the dragon standing on the surface, the breath remaining exactly at ground level, and the far end of the triangle ending up where the dragon's tail is?

Or would that be not the right way to resolve a conical breath weapon?

[Closak]

You know, at first i thought this thread was about something along the lines of the Malboro enemy from the Final Fantasy series.

Mutant Malboro BBEG, "REALLY EFFING BAD BREATH!!!" = Total Party Wipeout...or even Total Planet Wipeout

What? Am i really the only one who thought about that?

[PId6]

Dude, you got physics in my D&D...
DIE CATGIRLS DIE!!!


I guess we should convince someone to dare try to calculate it exactly using Pythagorean methods. :smallamused:
Since I'm crazy like that, here (assuming earth is a sphere; close enough):

After some geometry, I found that optimally, the cone must start 2 * radius / sqrt(2) away from the center of the sphere, so it must be 2 * radius / sqrt(2) - radius away from the furthest edge of the sphere. That also means that the length of the cone must be 2 * radius / sqrt(2) + radius in order to fully engulf the earth.

Subbing 20,902,231 ft for the radius of the earth, I find that the cone must start 8,657,988 ft away from the earth and it must be 50,462,450 ft long in order to just barely catch the entire surface of the earth and cover its full volume inside the cone. That requires using the Enlarge Breath feat 1,441,783 times, which results in a recharge rate of 1,441,783 + 1d4 rounds. This means a mathematically-inclined great wyrm can regain his breath weapon in 16.9 years.

[Morph Bark]

Would a triangle, long enough to wrap all the way round the world, do it, or would it need to be a bit longer? With the dragon standing on the surface, the breath remaining exactly at ground level, and the far end of the triangle ending up where the dragon's tail is?

Or would that be not the right way to resolve a conical breath weapon?

Pardon, slight mess-up due to not having used such mathematics in years: using the trigonometric functions. To make it so the breath has no obstructions from the spherical earth itself... well, to make it absolutely no obstructions the breath would have to be very very far away. To make it easier, we could say the triangle has corners of 89, 89 and 2. Or 75, 75 and 30 if the dragon cbf to fly all the way beyond the moon and have that motherfragging thing in the way, too.


...hey, perhaps we should just say the dragon is on the moon and uses that as its base to breathe from. Up 'til then it resides on the earth as it still requires a certain measure of food (you could apply the dungeonbred template to it as well to downscale this need some) before it realizes its breath weapon has returned, upon which it goes to the moon.

Personally, I cbf myself to bother calculating anything right now, like how many times that breath would need to be enlarged and the recharge time that is tied to that.

[Morph Bark]

DIE CATGIRLS DIE!!!


Since I'm crazy like that, here (assuming earth is a sphere; close enough):

After some geometry, I found that optimally, the cone must start 2 * radius / sqrt(2) away from the center of the sphere, so it must be 2 * radius / sqrt(2) - radius away from the furthest edge of the sphere. That also means that the length of the cone must be 2 * radius / sqrt(2) + radius in order to fully engulf the earth.

Subbing 20,902,231 ft for the radius of the earth, I find that the cone must start 8,657,988 ft away from the earth and it must be 50,462,450 ft long in order to just barely catch the entire surface of the earth and cover its full volume inside the cone. That requires using the Enlarge Breath feat 1,441,783 times, which results in a recharge rate of 1,441,783 + 1d4 rounds. This means a mathematically-inclined great wyrm can regain his breath weapon in 16.9 years.

And hoooottt dayuuuuummmm.

Is that awesome? Yes that's awesome. Is that sick? Yes that's sick. Is that destructive? Well it wouldn't be if it weren't for the fact that's exactly what we're going for here!

I applaud you PId6.

1,441,783 rounds... /10 /60 /24 /365... wait, according to my calculations that's less than a year still. Are you sure you did all the divisions right?

[hamishspence]

my guess is that breaths are supposed to be rendered as 3 dimensional cones rather than 2 dimensional triangles, anyway.

3.0 dragon breaths were shaped differently from 3.5 ones- in 3.0, the width of the cone was equal to the length- in 3.5, the width is much higher, since the cone always has a 90 degree angle.

[PId6]

1,441,783 rounds... /10 /60 /24 /365... wait, according to my calculations that's less than a year still. Are you sure you did all the divisions right?
Wow, I forgot to divide by minutes.

Never mind, it's just about 100 days recharge time. That's pretty fitting actually.


3.0 dragon breaths were shaped differently from 3.5 ones- in 3.0, the width of the cone was equal to the length- in 3.5, the width is much higher, since the cone always has a 90 degree angle.
With 90 degree angle, the width = 2 * length.

[hamishspence]

The pictures show it bulging out at the end.

On page 307 of the DMG, the cone is 60 ft long, but only 80 ft wide.

And the 120 ft cone is only 160 ft wide.

If we wanted to reduce the granularity of squares, we might describe it as a section of a sphere, with an angle between the "lower" and "upper" edge of the section, of 90 degrees.

[PId6]

The pictures show it bulging out at the end.

On page 307 of the DMG, the cone is 60 ft long, but only 80 ft wide.

And the 120 ft cone is only 160 ft wide.

If we wanted to reduce the granularity of squares, we might describe it as a section of a sphere, with an angle between the "lower" and "upper" edge of the section, of 90 degrees.
Awww. Bah stupid non-euclidean hard-to-calculate cone shapes. Why can't they just be triangles??! *pouts*

Is there a way to get that into a formula?

[Jastermereel]

Some calculations because I felt like it:

Colossal Dragon Breath Weapon: 70 ft cone, 1d4 rounds recharge
Enlarge Breath: +35 ft per +1 round recharge

Enlarge breath says "The length of your breath weapon increases by
50% (round down to the nearest multiple of 5)." Isn't it also reasonable to read it as a relative increase and not simply "by 50% of your original breath range"? Now, It might be clarified somewhere else, but the way I read it, that gives you 150ft for 1d4+2, not 140ft. If that's true, wouldn't it be a mere 1d4+33 rounds to get 43,628,285 feet? So, around 3.5 minutes per world-destroying blast?

Also, the dickering over squares in the DMG cones is probably moot. Even if the fire doesn't touch every "square" of the planet, enough would be destroyed to, at best, leave a charred husk incapable of sustaining life and, quite possibly, a few traces of gravel floating in space. Even if it misses kilometers of the planet, it'll be hot and dead rock, floating without an atmosphere.

[Melayl]

That much fire would also burn off all of the atmosphere of a planet...

[PId6]

Enlarge breath says "The length of your breath weapon increases by 50% (round down to the nearest multiple of 5)." Isn't it also reasonable to read it as a relative increase and not simply "by 50% of your original breath range"?

When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).
Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)

Unfortunately, it doesn't increase quadratically.

[Morph Bark]

Perhaps I should provide a calculation for how long it takes an ordinary Great Red Wyrm to get to the necessary height too... to decide the amount of rounds a party would have to take it down while it flies up to that spot. The necessary height, hm... would that be 50,462,450 ft minus the diameter or the radius of the Earth?

[ZeroNumerous]

So then the only question remains is...

How is the party going to fight it in space?

[PId6]

Perhaps I should provide a calculation for how long it takes an ordinary Great Red Wyrm to get to the necessary height too... to decide the amount of rounds a party would have to take it down while it flies up to that spot. The necessary height, hm... would that be 50,462,450 ft minus the diameter or the radius of the Earth?
8,657,988 ft, since that's how far away from the earth you have to be.

I'd suggest sneaking Persistent Footsteps of the Divine somewhere in there.

[Morph Bark]

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)

Unfortunately, it doesn't increase quadratically.

Well, x1.5 and another x1.5 would become x2. Keep stacking that instead?

[hamishspence]

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)

Unfortunately, it doesn't increase quadratically.

So, the multiplier in this case is 1.5, and the additional multiples are 0.5 each time?

So- taking Enlarge Breath 4 times, is equivalent to multiplying the size of the breath weapon by 3?

(1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5)= 3

Makes sense. Since each extra multiple after the first one, is at -1 to what it would normally be.

[ZeroNumerous]

I'd suggest sneaking Persistent Footsteps of the Divine somewhere in there.

Greater teleport renders the entire 'distance' aspect moot.

[Frosty]

Lavos mk. II?

[Morph Bark]

That much fire would also burn off all of the atmosphere of a planet...

I don't really think it works that way precisely, though it would consume tons of oxygen. Which, combined with the many ashes left behind and the steam that rises up from the oceans to create rain, could create the perfect environment for a new era of forestation. Other areas could become caught in a nuclear winter, or turn into deserts. It would get very situational, but basically, while it would be a destroyer of worlds, unless it's breath weapon damage would be sorta vile damage in a way, it would also be a force of nature almost, to cleanse a world and ready it for rebirth.

[Keld Denar]

To calc how many rounds it would take the dragon to get to Armageddon Height, you'd take the movement speed of the dragon, multiply it by 2 for a double move (since you can't run while flying), then divide by 2 because dargons don't have perfect manevuerability and thus climb on a 2-1 basis. Thats assuming the dragon has at least Average manevuerability or the Hover feat.

If manevuerability is lower, you need a certain amount of forward momentum to remain aloft, meaning that height gain each round would be the vertical leg of a right triangle who's horizontal leg is that minimum forward space and the hypontinus would be the dragons movement speed for a double move (see above).

Yay, geometry AND trig! Now we just need to figure out how to get calculus and differential equations in here!

[Jastermereel]

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)

Unfortunately, it doesn't increase quadratically.

That's certainly one reading of it, though one could split semantic hairs over multipliers versus additive increases expressed as percentages :smallbiggrin: Though I'd lose that argument when Draconomicon explicitly says "Apply
the feat’s effect to the base values for the breath weapon once for each time the feat is applied and add up the extra time the dragon must wait before breathing again."

Strangely, while the example paragraph cites Enlarge Breath explicitly ("For
example, a Small dragon with a line-shaped breath weapon could use Enlarge Breath twice on the same breath."), it goes on to say that, "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description."

Enlarge Breath does not note as such.

Clinging Breath and Lingering breath do, but Enlarge Breath does not.

[ZeroNumerous]

To calc how many rounds it would take the dragon to get to Armageddon Height, you'd take the movement speed of the dragon, multiply it by 2 for a double move (since you can't run while flying), then divide by 2 because dragons don't have perfect manevuerability and thus climb on a 2-1 basis. Thats assuming the dragon has at least Average manevuerability or the Hover feat.

If manevuerability is lower, you need a certain amount of forward momentum to remain aloft, meaning that height gain each round would be the vertical leg of a right triangle who's horizontal leg is that minimum forward space and the hypontinus would be the dragons movement speed for a double move (see above).

Yay, geometry AND trig! Now we just need to figure out how to get calculus and differential equations in here!

That's a really funny way to calculate six seconds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm), Keld.

[PId6]

Makes sense. Since each extra multiple after the first one, is at -1 to what it would normally be.
It works much better with percentages:

100% + 50% + 50% = 200%, which is x2.


Greater teleport renders the entire 'distance' aspect moot.
But that's so much less fun. :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

That's certainly one reading of it, though one could split semantic hairs over multipliers versus additive increases expressed as percentages.

50% increase is mearly a 1.5 multiplier. If you add 2 1.5 multipliers together, you get (1.5 + 0.5)=2x. If you add 3 1.5 multipliers together, you get (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5)=2.5x.

etc.



100% + 50% + 50% = 200%, which is x2.

200% is x3. 100% is a doubling, or x2 already.

[ZeroNumerous]

But that's so much less fun. :smallfrown:

Yes, but an insane world-ending dragon would probably want to end worlds quickly so it can let it's breath weapon recharge in the 19+ years it takes to find another planet with life.

[Morph Bark]

That's a really funny way to calculate six seconds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm), Keld.

Let's assume instead the dragon is a player of the Great Game and is trying to win it through throwing over the playing board like a kid with a tantrum. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Strangely, while the example paragraph cites Enlarge Breath explicitly ("For
example, a Small dragon with a line-shaped breath weapon could use Enlarge Breath twice on the same breath."), it goes on to say that, "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description."

Enlarge Breath does not note as such.

Clinging Breath and Lingering breath do, but Enlarge Breath does not.

That's odd.

It does make how the feat would work if it stacks, rather clear though- if you have a 40 ft breath, every time you apply the feat, you get an extra 20 ft.

Which probably matches the way the multipliers would work.

Test example- 40 ft breath, apply the feat 10 times- is equal to 240 ft.

Multipliers- (1.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5)= X6

40 X 6 = 240.

It works.

[Temotei]

You know, at first i thought this thread was about something along the lines of the Malboro enemy from the Final Fantasy series.

Mutant Malboro BBEG, "REALLY EFFING BAD BREATH!!!" = Total Party Wipeout...or even Total Planet Wipeout

What? Am i really the only one who thought about that?

That's what I thought.

Also, I think every catgirl in the entire universe is dead.

[Grumman]

You know, at first i thought this thread was about something along the lines of the Malboro enemy from the Final Fantasy series.
...
What? Am i really the only one who thought about that?
No. I was coming to suggest a Tendriculos Dragonfire Adept.

[Jastermereel]

50% increase is mearly a 1.5 multiplier. If you add 2 1.5 multipliers together, you get (1.5 + 0.5)=2x. If you add 3 1.5 multipliers together, you get (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5)=2.5x..

I already conceded the effect, but while I agree that, in this world, increasing by 50% is a multiplier, we're talking about a world where something that takes 10 rounds is distinct from something that takes 1 minute, so semantic nonsense like saying "increases by 50%" isn't the same as "multiply by 1.5" is perfectly legitimate (especially when both notations have been used independently).

Which is moot, mind you, if it can't stack after all.

Edited for clarity.

[Jyokage]

I think I just died and went to geek heaven! I love this idea, can you imagine the pc's trying to desperately slay a mad dragon bent on world annihilation, in space, fighting on the dragon, while it strives to attain optimal blast range?? Epic I say! EPIC!!:xykon:

[Morph Bark]

I already conceded the effect, but while I agree that, in this world, increasing by 50% is a multiplier, we're talking about a world where something that takes 10 rounds is distinct from something that takes 1 minute, so semantic nonsense like that is perfectly legitimate.

If, mind you, it can stack at all.

Hence why AtwasAwamps said in the original post that it stacks only potentially, and this thread is simply for the exploiting and expanding upon this potentiality and its potency.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but if you don't manage to slay it before it gets above terminal velocity height, you get to ride that dead flaming dragon all the way to the ground.

WWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

poof

[Morph Bark]

Yea, but if you don't manage to slay it before it gets above terminal velocity height, you get to ride that dead flaming dragon all the way to the ground.

WWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

poof

At least you will have died a good death and will have many good things happen to you in the afterlife.

Unless, y'know, some bastard cleric raises your ass. Or a blasted wizard teleports you out.

[Snake-Aes]

Will this be an epic encounter? It's also a good idea to have the dragon devise a spell(or ten) to buff his breath weapon's span. Maybe, instead of one, make it two? Twin dragons, born under a moon kissed by the goddess of the night, destined to bring back the days where dragons ruled the world and whatever else prophetic.

[hamishspence]

Twin dragons on exactly opposite sides of the world, might minimise the area needed.

A 90 degree cone, with a diameter the same as the Earth's diameter, should be able to cover one whole hemisphere.

[Jastermereel]

Twin dragons on exactly opposite sides of the world, might minimise the area needed.

A 90 degree cone, with a diameter the same as the Earth's diameter, should be able to cover one whole hemisphere.

Perhaps one cone of fire and one cone of cold? Fracture the planet with a temperature difference?

[Morph Bark]

Perhaps one cone of fire and one cone of cold? Fracture the planet with a temperature difference?

Hey now, let's not get hasty. I was already gonna use that as the premise for a magical post-apocalyptic campaign setting.

[Snake-Aes]

Can't go wrong with a zombie apocalypse that zombifies reality itself.
But back to dragons... It'd be nice to give something less..."McGuffiniy" to Dragalactus, thus I'm biased towards making it more than one dragon...and coupling something else to the standard stuff. Maybe a new age category? Dragalactus really seems to transcend time there.

[Morph Bark]

Can't go wrong with a zombie apocalypse that zombifies reality itself.
But back to dragons... It'd be nice to give something less..."McGuffiniy" to Dragalactus, thus I'm biased towards making it more than one dragon...and coupling something else to the standard stuff. Maybe a new age category? Dragalactus really seems to transcend time there.

It could be twin Dracoliches who are one another's phylactery?

[Jastermereel]

More food for thought:

Since all but a small fraction of the years of recharge would take place in advance of the campaign, the general length doesn't matter. It could be 33 years or a century or a millennium (provided the dragon doesn't die of old age).

Also, all of the recharge calculations depend on the dragon having already done this before. If it's just a one shot event (or the first of its kind), the dragon can do it on a whim and scale it to whatever size it could desire. "Fifty-four quintillion rounds of recharge? Sure! I promise I won't use the breath weapon again for another 2 trillion years!" This, admittedly, is less practical as you can have a dragon declare the apocalypse on a whim.

Enter Lingering Breath. It doesn't have a great rate of return since it costs 2 rounds of recharge for every round it lingers, but it allows for enduring effects. Sure you can toast the planet in one round with a massively enlarged breath, but why not create a thousand years of fire (or frost)?

An on that note, why not have such a thing be encountered in a campaign after the fact? It need not be a world destroying event, but a permanent blockade. Two dragons, provided they don't use their breath for anything else in the time frame, can keep an area bathed in elemental damage for all eternity if they take turns. Such a barrier is far more interesting than yet another and would make for an interesting barrier to a temple of Tiamat, no?

[Snake-Aes]

More food for thought:

Since all but a small fraction of the years of recharge would take place in advance of the campaign, the general length doesn't matter. It could be 33 years or a century or a millennium (provided the dragon doesn't die of old age).

Also, all of the recharge calculations depend on the dragon having already done this before. If it's just a one shot event (or the first of its kind), the dragon can do it on a whim and scale it to whatever size it could desire. "Fifty-four quintillion rounds of recharge? Sure! I promise I won't use the breath weapon again for another 2 trillion years!" This, admittedly, is less practical as you can have a dragon declare the apocalypse on a whim.

Enter Lingering Breath. It doesn't have a great rate of return since it costs 2 rounds of recharge for every round it lingers, but it allows for enduring effects. Sure you can toast the planet in one round with a massively enlarged breath, but why not create a thousand years of fire (or frost)?

An on that note, why not have such a thing be encountered in a campaign after the fact? It need not be a world destroying event, but a permanent blockade. Two dragons, provided they don't use their breath for anything else in the time frame, can keep an area bathed in elemental damage for all eternity if they take turns. Such a barrier is far more interesting than yet another and would make for an interesting barrier to a temple of Tiamat, no?

That's nice. With the goal of apocalypse in mind, you can make it so the dragons have a breath that is reinforced every few weeks, and each new round spreads it a little more.

[Morph Bark]

An on that note, why not have such a thing be encountered in a campaign after the fact? It need not be a world destroying event, but a permanent blockade. Two dragons, provided they don't use their breath for anything else in the time frame, can keep an area bathed in elemental damage for all eternity if they take turns. Such a barrier is far more interesting than yet another and would make for an interesting barrier to a temple of Tiamat, no?

This makes me think that Tiamat would require chromatic dragons that reach the Great Wyrm stage to come to her main temple and bathe it in a large lingering breath effect that would endure for a really long time (at the very least 5 years). Gives a good supply of such things, plus it could have multiple breaths lingering at once for various types of damage.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if I'm estimating precisely correctly, but when you place a sphere inside a cube of roughly the same size, from the 8 corners of the cube, are points where a cone of 90 degrees angle, will not intersect the planet.

Does this mean that those points, represent the minimum altitude that a dragon can fire its breath from, if it wants the breath to be potentially capable of covering the whole surface?

if so- then those points are exactly 2 planetary radii away from the centre of the planet.

A breath 3 planetary radii in length, will then engulf the whole planet.

[Morph Bark]

A breath 3 planetary radii in length, will then engulf the whole planet.

Yes, but logically speaking the other side of the planet has total cover against the breath weapon.

You simply need to have a breath where the outermost parts of it reach halfway.

...I guess we are going to need normal Pythagorean methods after all.

[hamishspence]

Does cover work that way for area effects like a breath weapon?

It certainly makes sense that it would- but some effects "lick round" so to speak.

I'm not sure if Dragon Breath is one of those though.

[blueblade]

Twinned dragons is much more plausible, not to mention thematically awesome.

With the exception of atmosphere and gravity (which might help wrap the plasma around), the issue of cover is going to protect one half of the planet. A half that will no longer have a breathable atmosphere (and some crazy weather), but still. Not cool.

Twin Dragons can also be much closer to the planet I think. Not upper atmosphere close, but closer. What about the moon? Let's do this on Ansalon! 3 moons. When two are in perfect alignment, the dragons breathe!

[hamishspence]

Dunno about much closer- the breath still has to reach one whole hemisphere.

Now that I come to think of it, a cube may not be a good parallel though.

A pyramid with a 90 degree angle between each pair of edges might be closer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure a Human Dragon Shaman 1 with two flaws can get Lingering Breath and Enlarge Breath, along with a feat from Dragon magazine that forces them to wait 1d4 rounds before breathing again so he can actually use metabreath feats. He breathes once, Enlarged, makes it Linger for an infinite duration, and every round it remains its area increases by another 50%, or something like that. A 1st level character covers the entire world in a permanent cloud of fire.

And then a Warblade steps into the breath weapon and uses Iron Heart Surge to instantly end the entire effect.

[Morph Bark]

I'm pretty sure a Human Dragon Shaman 1 with two flaws can get Lingering Breath and Enlarge Breath, along with a feat from Dragon magazine that forces them to wait 1d4 rounds before breathing again so he can actually use metabreath feats. He breathes once, Enlarged, makes it Linger for an infinite duration, and every round it remains its area increases by another 50%, or something like that. A 1st level character covers the entire world in a permanent cloud of fire.

And then a Warblade steps into the breath weapon and uses Iron Heart Surge to instantly end the entire effect.

This should be how every single evil Dragon Shaman and dragon (do Dragonfire Adepts get breath? Then them too) go out, doing this right before they die.

The party would consist of Warblades trying to save the world through Iron Heart Surging across the planet.

[hamishspence]

I've just realized something- you need three dragons.

If you had two, at near-infinite range, above each pole, you still wouldn't be able to trace line of sight to things very close to the equator. At closer range, the zone of cover becomes wider.

This is also why orbital bombardments require a minimum of 3 ships for simultaneous coverage of the whole planet, and why a minimum of 3 Geostationary satellites at equidistant points are required to cover the whole planet.

In practice 3 might still leave tiny uncovered zones above each pole (4 is the normal amount needed to eliminate this).

[Morph Bark]

I've just realized something- you need three dragons.

If you had two, at near-infinite range, above each pole, you still wouldn't be able to trace line of sight to things very close to the equator. At closer range, the zone of cover becomes wider.

This is also why orbital bombardments require a minimum of 3 ships for simultaneous coverage of the whole planet, and why a minimum of 3 Geostationary satellites at equidistant points are required to cover the whole planet.

In practice 3 might still leave tiny uncovered zones above each pole (4 is the normal amount needed to eliminate this).

One for each commonly occurring energy type?

[hamishspence]

Maybe they should all take that spell that allows them to add sonic energy to their breath weapon- if it can be used on breaths that have had metabreath feats applied.

[Snake-Aes]

So you want Two to Four dragons who singe the world with bad music?

[Heliomance]

Nothing wrong with Dragonforce >_>

[Morph Bark]

So you want Two to Four dragons who singe the world with bad music?

Or bad puns. :smalltongue: