(3.5 Prc) The Flashblade

[Lix Lorn]

Flashblade

Can you kill fifteen men faster than you can blink? No? Then let me get on with it.

A Flashblade is an arcane warrior who relies upon speed to strike with ultimate precision-and there’s no speed greater than instantaneous.

BECOMING A FLASHBLADE
A Flashblade tends to come about among adventurers, where fighting ability is necessary to allow magic-users to survive. Equally, it can be when a skilled warrior desires a way to close with his enemy that much faster.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Spellcasting: Ability to cast Dimension Door.
BAB: +6

Class Skills
The Flashblade’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Tumble (Dex).
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + Int Bonus

Hit Dice: d8

Flashblade


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Spells


1st

+1

+0

+2

+0
Flash Step
-


2nd

+2

+0

+3

+0
Storm of Steel
-


3rd

+3

+1

+3

+1
Flash Leap
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


4th

+4

+1

+4

+1
Flashmaster
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


5th

+5

+1

+4

+1
Blurring Speed
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


6th

+6/+1

+2

+5

+2
Improved Flash Leap
-


7th

+7/+2

+2

+5

+2
Greater Storm of Steel
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


8th

+8/+3

+2

+6

+2
Shock and Awe
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


9th

+9/+4

+3

+6

+3
Greater Flash Leap
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


10th

+10/+5

+3

+7

+3
Flashmaster
+1 level of existing spellcasting class



Weapon Proficiencies: A Flashblade gains no new weapon or armour proficiencies. In addition, armour can interfere with the somatic components of their spells.

Flash Step (Ex):
I can kill you before you fire that arrow.
A Flashblade gains the Pounce special ability. In addition, the first time in any round when she uses a spell with the teleportation descriptor to get within melee attack range, she counts as charging for all purposes. Unless a Flashblade has another ability that gives them additional actions in a round, they may not make more than one full attack in a single round.
Finally, when a Flashblade uses the spell Dimension Door to get into melee range of an enemy, they may ignore the spell's restriction on taking other actions that turn.

Storm of Steel (Ex):
Not only will I end any fight you start, I’ll end it before you finish starting it.
A 2nd level Flashblade may strike with a Storm of Steel, at the expense of some accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the Flashblade might make before her next action. When a Flashblade reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A Flashblade must use a full attack action to strike with a Storm of Steel.

Look, if we get into a fight, there’ll be blood and limbs everywhere, and I don’t want to be responsible for that.
When a Flashblade reaches 6th level, her Storm of Steel ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from Storm of Steel, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Flash Leap (Sp):
...you don’t believe me? Forty feet isn’t enough distance for you to shoot me.
A Flashblade of 3rd level can move impressive distances in an instant. Once per encounter per every three Flashblade levels she has, she may cast the Dimension Door spell, targeting only herself (and any companions/familiars etc she has), provided the target of the spell is within melee range of an enemy.

In fact, there’s very little chance you can get away.
At 6th level, a Flashblade can travel huge distances, whether for combat reasons or just for travel. She may cast the Teleport spell once per day for every three class levels she has. In addition, whenever they cast the teleportation spell, if they can see their destination, there is no chance of going off course.

Please don’t do this. If you do, I will slay you, if I have to follow you beyond the ends of the earth.
A 9th level Flashblade can cast the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift once per day per four Flashblade levels she possesses.

Flashmaster (Su):
If you’re delaying to make me calm down, then I must tell you that I don’t need notice to kill you.
A Flashblade of 4th level can, once per encounter, cast one spell with the teleportation descriptor as if they were quickened, but with no increase in level or casting time.
(As normal, you may only perform one swift action a turn)

Blurring Speed (Ex):
At this range, I don’t even need magic.
A Flashblade of 5th level gains an enhancement bonus on initiative tests equal to half her class level, and an enhancement bonus to her speed equal to ten feet per every three class levels they possess.

Shock and Awe (Ex):
When I kill you, your band will leave this place in peace.
Whenever a Flashblade of 9th level charges, all allies who can see both her start and end points gain a morale bonus, until the end of the round, to attack and damage rolls equal to +1 for every twenty feet travelled, with a maximum bonus of +5.
All enemies who can see take a penalty of equal size, although they may make a will save with DC 10+The Flashblade's class level to ignore the effect. (This is a non-magical mind affecting effect.)

In addition, the enemy charged is treated as flat footed.

Flashblade (Ex):
I see this is not going to be resolved peacefully...
(pause)
The band is dead.
A Flashblade of 10th level relies on speed and surprise to strike with phenomenal power. Whenever she charges, she gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls, for this round, equal to +1 for every twenty feet travelled that turn, with a maximum bonus equal to half her class level.

PLAYING FLASHBLADE
A Flashblade is most at home in combat. Their abilities allow them to do devastating damage in a charge, but are all but useless outside of one. Because of this, it is logical to have lots of teleportation spells available to allow you to dash in and out again.
Combat: A typical first turn might include casting Dimension Door as a move action, before performing a full attack on the largest thread, before casting Dimension Door a second time to get out of attack range. Alternatively, they might run in normally while using more offensive spells to soften their target up.
Advancement: One Flashblade could focus on offensive spells, such as Scorching Ray, while another could serve as a healer while they were not fighting. Of course, the vast majority specialise in teleportation, allowing their class abilities to be used more often. Scrying spells are also useful, allowing them to attack from long distances away.
Resources: Special resources are rare for this class, although some small organisations do exist. If they do belong to one of these rare groups, then they will likely have access to extensive archives of teleportation magic, and friendly spellcasters.

FLASHBLADES IN THE WORLD
Oh, he saved us all, he did. Just... he killed them all, every last one of them, and had sheathed his sword and stood back in the town square before they’d even fallen to the ground.

Flashblades are not easily distinguishable from most people, although the mixture of magical paraphernalia and weaponry distinguishes them from ‘normal’ magical or martial characters.
Daily Life: A Flashblade’s day is much like any other characters. She may be going on an adventure, or be hired to assassinate a noble, or be asked to aid in an assault on the neighbouring nation. What’s sure is that her notable skills are likely to be used.
Notables: The two most famous Flashblades are known as Yoruichi of the Flashcry, and Minato, the Yellow Flash. Yoruichi was an assassin, who once killed anyone she was paid to slay, with her unique brand of war. She later repented of this mindless slaughter, but her power was too great for the nations she had wronged to dare try to capture her. She taught several students, including the deadly Byakuya, and the vengeful Soifon, and, of course, Minato. Minato surpassed his teacher, aided by his lack of a dark reputation. His skills eventually led him to become the master of a small nation, and the power of the Flashblades has been known since.
Organizations: In the lands once ruled by the Yellow Flash, Flashblades are a significant military force. Able to enter a fortress simply by looking at the battlements, or scrying on their opponent and then striking, this country utilises them to their full. Any Flashblade with an eye on the military life would be hard pressed to find something better. Alternatively, many mages guilds appreciate the insight of someone with more physical combat expertise, while warrior groups enjoy the backup of someone who controls forces beyond humanity.

NPC Reaction
NPCs tend to react to Flashblades as they would to any other slightly mysterious warrior, or a combatant magic-user. However, their lightning fast combat style is rather disturbing to see. Knowing that someone could disembowel you before you had noticed them drawing their weapon is a disconcerting thought.

FLASHBLADES IN THE GAME
A Flashblade should be devastating in the initial stages of a battle, darting around. However, if the enemy can survive their initial onslaught, they will soon run out of teleportation spells to make their abilities work to the full.
Adaptation: A Flashblade could easily be adapted for psionics, simply by replacing caster levels and Spell Like Abilities with manifester levels and Psionic Like Abilities, and the need for a teleportation spell with a teleportation power.
Encounters: An assassin is popping into existence above her targets, slaying them before they can respond, and vanishing into the night. Something has to be done. You’re the one doing it.

Sent to wipe out a large group of bandits, a teleportation specialist is asked to help you... a student of the Yellow Flash.

(Some inspiration from Bleach and Naruto. :smalltongue:)

[Milskidasith]

Flash Step (Ex):
I can kill you before you fire that arrow.
A Flashblade gains the Pounce special ability. In addition, when she uses a spell with the teleportation descriptor to get within melee attack range, she counts as charging for all purposes. If she does this, treat the spell’s casting time as if it was a move action.

But... charging is a full round action (or a standard if you can only take a standard/move per round); if she counts as charging when using a teleport spell, which takes a move action to use, you wouldn't be capable of charging, only making a single attack. Furthermore, how does this interact with Dimension Door, which can't have any actions taken after it?

A better way to phrase it would probably be "After teleporting within melee range of a foe, the Flashblade may make a full attack as an *insert action* (Free or swift if they get rid of the "all teleports are move action", standard if they do.)


Storm of Steel (Ex):
Not only will I end any fight you start, I’ll end it before you finish starting it.
A 2nd level Flashblade may strike with a Storm of Steel, at the expense of some accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the Flashblade might make before her next action. When a Flashblade reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A Flashblade must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

So... they get flurry. Nothing major, but useful.


Look, if we get into a fight, there’ll be blood and limbs everywhere, and I don’t want to be responsible for that.
When a Flashblade reaches 6th level, her Storm of Steel ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from Storm of Steel, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Flurry! Woo!


Flash Leap (Sp):
...you don’t believe me? Forty feet isn’t enough distance for you to shoot me.[/b]
A Flashblade of 3rd level can move impressive distances in an instant. Once per encounter per every three Flashblade levels she has, she may cast the Dimension Door spell, targeting only herself (and any companions/familiars etc she has) as a move action, provided the target of the spell is within melee range of an enemy.

Why do you get the ability to cast a move action teleport spell when all of your spells are already automatically move actions if you use them to get next to an enemy? This ability literally does nothing but give you a few more spells per day, although since it's dimension door all it does is let you cast another spell then DDoor next to your enemy.


[i]In fact, there’s very little chance you can get away.
At 6th level, a Flashblade can travel huge distances, whether for combat reasons or just for travel. She may cast the Teleport spell once per day for every three class levels she has. In addition, whenever they cast the teleportation spell, they may cast it as a move action, and if they can see their destination, there is no chance of going off course.

Well, at least there's no limit on being next to your enemy, so sped up teleports are nice.


Please don’t do this. If you do, I will slay you, if I have to follow you beyond the ends of the earth.
A 9th level Flashblade can cast the spell Greater Teleport or Plane Shift once per day per four Flashblade levels she possesses.

Well, since it's not a move action to do this, the feature is essentially useless.


Flashmaster (Su):
If you’re delaying to make me calm down, then I must tell you that I don’t need notice to kill you.
A Flashblade of 4th level can cast spells with the teleportation descriptor as if they were quickened, but with no increase in level or casting time.
(As normal, you may only perform one swift action a turn)

OK, this makes no sense. Why do you keep giving move action teleports after all spells are auto quickened? Granted, it lets you preform more action economy abuse, and I have no clue how this interacts with your charging description, but it makes your "move action" spell thing pointless unless your intent was actually to let the Flashblade cast a spell, teleport next to an opponent, full attack them, and quickened teleport away every round, which is... very powerful; it's basically like having a Belt of Battle used every round, which is pretty absurd.


Blurring Speed (Ex):
At this range, I don’t even need magic.
A Flashblade of 5th level gains an enhancement bonus on initiative tests equal to half her class level, and an enhancement bonus to her speed equal to ten feet per every three class levels they possess.

Meh, nothing major here.


[QUOTE]Shock and Awe (Ex):
When I kill you, your band will leave this place in peace.
Whenever a Flashblade of 9th level charges, all allies who can see both her start and end points gain a morale bonus, until the end of the round, to attack and damage rolls equal to +1 for every ten feet travelled.
All enemies who can see take a penalty of equal size. (This is a non-magical mind affecting effect.)
In addition, the target is treated as flat footed.

So you automatically hit and give your enemies a penalty of -absurd, with no save, and you can still both cast and teleport out of range of the (now completely ineffectual at attacking) enemies? This is broken. Remove this feature entirely, or give it a save and cap it at a penalty of, like, -5, with the penalty being -1 for every fifty feet traveled.


Flashblade (Ex):
I see this is not going to be resolved peacefully...
(pause)
The band is dead.
A Flashblade of 10th level relies on speed and surprise to strike with phenomenal power. Whenever she charges, she gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls, for this round, equal to +1 for every ten foot travelled that turn.

They already get that from the previous class feature, unless you aren't your own ally. Since this is untyped, the class gets +2 to attack per ten feet, when this is a class that can teleport a few hundred feet, full attack, teleport back, and then cast... this is also broken and needs to be removed.


Combat: A typical first turn might include casting Dimension Door as a move action, before performing a full attack on the largest thread, before casting Dimension Door a second time to get out of attack range. Alternatively, they might run in normally while using more offensive spells to soften their target up.

Not possible; casting dimension door is the last action you can take in a round.

In short, this class is surprisingly broken; you will essentially never be in range of your enemies, yet you can cast as much as a typical spellcaster per round while making full attacks every round as well as typical melee builds, except your full attacks get +absurd to damage and to hit and your enemies will always need natural twenties to crit you for one damage if they can even get into range since you can teleport in and out.

[jiriku]

Spellcasting: I would put your second level with Shock and Awe, rather than Improved Flash Leap. IFL is non-special, while SaA is a game-changer.

Storm of Steel: Contains a copy/paste error referencing flurry of blows.

Flash Leap: Dimension door ends your turn, and you're probably wanting to convert it to a move action so you can pounce your target. Better add a note specifying that a Flash-Leap-DD doesn't end your turn.

Greater Flash Leap: Simpler just to convert the daily uses of teleport into daily uses of greater teleport/plane shift. Less bookkeeping.

Shock and Awe: Problematic. With the ability to teleport as a swift or move action and the ability to turn a teleport into a charge, the Flashblade can charge hundreds of feet every turn and claim the Shock and Awe modifiers, provided she's conspicious enough to be noticed from a distance.

Example: Wear bright colors and carry a pair of cymbals*. Clang them loudly while located out in plain sight 500' from enemy. Enemy looks at you. Roll initiative.
Round 1: Move action teleport. Pouncing charge vs. flat-footed opponents. Shock and Awe for +50/-50. Tell the survivors "be right back, gotta go pick up my cymbals." Swift action teleport back to your starting point.
Rounds 2+: Lather. Rinse. Repeat as necessary.

Flashblade: Has the same problem.


Edit: *Bonus points if you also wear a monkey suit.

[Milskidasith]

Spellcasting: I would put your second level with Shock and Awe, rather than Improved Flash Leap. IFL is non-special, while SaA is a game-changer.

Storm of Steel: Contains a copy/paste error referencing flurry of blows.

Flash Leap: Dimension door ends your turn, and you're probably wanting to convert it to a move action so you can pounce your target. Better add a note specifying that a Flash-Leap-DD doesn't end your turn.

Greater Flash Leap: Simpler just to convert the daily uses of teleport into daily uses of greater teleport/plane shift. Less bookkeeping.

Shock and Awe: Problematic. With the ability to teleport as a swift or move action and the ability to turn a teleport into a charge, the Flashblade can charge hundreds of feet every turn and claim the Shock and Awe modifiers, provided she's conspicious enough to be noticed from a distance.

Example: Wear bright colors and carry a pair of cymbals. Clang them loudly while located out in plain sight 500' from enemy. Enemy looks at you. Roll initiative.
Round 1: Move action teleport. Pouncing charge vs. flat-footed opponents. Shock and Awe for +50/-50. Tell the survivors "be right back, gotta go pick up my cymbals." Swift action teleport back to your starting point.
Rounds 2+: Lather. Rinse. Repeat as necessary.

Flashblade: Has the same problem.

As long as you aren't hiding, you are automatically visible and require no spot checks... you could teleport miles across a flat plain and not be hidden, by RAW.

Even ignoring that, it's easy enough to see *somebody* 500 or a thousand feet away, especially if they are large sized (enlarge person), without any special actions. But yeah, teleport, full attack with +/-50 or 100, then cast a spell from far away when you get back.

[Lix Lorn]

The teleport IS the charge, so if it uses a move action, you still have a standard action-or a full attack, cause of pounce.

Oops. I'll remove the move action notes on DD and Teleport.


Well, since it's not a move action to do this, the feature is essentially useless.
I was intending for that to be for conventional travel. Or was that sarcasm..?


OK, this makes no sense. Why do you keep giving move action teleports after all spells are auto quickened? Granted, it lets you preform more action economy abuse, and I have no clue how this interacts with your charging description, but it makes your "move action" spell thing pointless unless your intent was actually to let the Flashblade cast a spell, teleport next to an opponent, full attack them, and quickened teleport away every round, which is... very powerful; it's basically like having a Belt of Battle used every round, which is pretty absurd.
That WAS the intention... what if I make it once per encounter?

Shock and Awe was intended to not boost you. You recommend a will save, and a maximum penalty of -5, plus change it to per fifty feet?
For Flashblade, could I cap that at +10, and change it to per fifty foot?

I didn't realise DD banned you from taking actions. I'll give them a feature that allow them to take actions after it.

[jiriku]

Shock and Awe was intended to not boost you. You recommend a will save, and a maximum penalty of -5, plus change it to per fifty feet?
For Flashblade, could I cap that at +10, and change it to per fifty foot?

A save for Shock and Awe would be a good idea, since it affects all opponents and inflicts a large penalty.

Suggest you cap Flashblade at +5, but allow Shock and Awe to benefit the user. Results in a +10 bonus total, but phases in part of the bonus two levels earlier. Also lets you get your +10 with half the 'port distance.

I'd use a smaller distance than 50' as your scaling unit. Because really, how often will you start combat with line of sight to your foes from 500' away? That will never happen in any sort of indoor or underground setting, nor in jungles, dense forests, nor during night-time, heavy fog, driving rain, etc..

[Milskidasith]

The teleport IS the charge, so if it uses a move action, you still have a standard action-or a full attack, cause of pounce.

So you can full attack twice and still teleport away? That's even more broken than I thought.


I was intending for that to be for conventional travel. Or was that sarcasm..?

Getting access to a spell you'd have access to anyway is useless. Yeah, you can use it to travel, I suppose, but by the time you get this class feature, you could already teleport as much as possible.


That WAS the intention... what if I make it once per encounter?

Two full attacks at +absurd, or a full attack at +absurd and a spell cast, or even just a full attack at +absurd, is broken, it doesn't matter how rarely you can use it.


Shock and Awe was intended to not boost you.

You'd have to be neutral to yourself for that to not be the case.


You recommend a will save, and a maximum penalty of -5, plus change it to per fifty feet?

Yes, though fifty feet might not be necessary, but per ten feet means you'll always hit the max.


For Flashblade, could I cap that at +10, and change it to per fifty foot?

Pretty much, though again, fifty feet may be too much. Maybe twenty feet?


I didn't realise DD banned you from taking actions. I'll give them a feature that allow them to take actions after it.

Well that removes the major disadvantages of dimension door, but it's not huge, so I see no problem with this.

The problem with this is that action economy abuse is the most powerful thing in the game, and allowing you action economy abuse to double full attack or full attack + spellcast and end up 1000 feet out of the enemies range, even with the now nerfed bonuses, is very poweerful; this is definitely a +2 tier class for melee units, and pretty strong for full casters anyway since it's incredibly easy to enter, even though losing two caster levels hurts somewhat, action economy abuse keeps it powerful.

[Lix Lorn]

...how can you full attack twice? Isn't it a full round action?

Hm. If it's too weak, I need something else for level 9.

Given the huge change in the other abilities, so it's not +absurd anymore, should i still limit how often they get a swift teleport?

Good point. I'll take Jiriku's idea and make Flashmaster +5 and let them stack.

I'll change them both to twenty feet.

I still don't get how you manage a double full attack.

[Milskidasith]

...how can you full attack twice? Isn't it a full round action?

Swift action teleport.


Hm. If it's too weak, I need something else for level 9.

It's not.


Given the huge change in the other abilities, so it's not +absurd anymore, should i still limit how often they get a swift teleport?

Yes.


I still don't get how you manage a double full attack.

All teleports count as charges. Swift action teleport, full round attack, profit. You can't get out from that, but you can still double full attack every round you have a swift action teleport.

Plus, the entry requirements for this are *very* low, as an aside.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

To add to what Milskidasith said, there is a first (or 0th?) level teleportation spell with the casting time of an immediate action. So, with Flash Step, a Flashblade could open combat with that and do three full attacks on his or her turn with that spell, saving their immediate action to use it again as an interrupt.

This is a bit much.

[zenanarchist]

Don't push me cossss I'm close to the edge....I'm trying not to lose my head...

This joke may be entirely too old for some of you. ;-)

[Jota]

Full attacking after a teleportation effect is nothing new, and it's not really broken. The Telflammar Shadowlord (one of the Faerun books) does the exact same thing, and given the wizard/gish base Pouncing is subpar anyway, so I don't really think that ability is overpowered at all.

[Hyooz]

Full attacking after a teleportation effect is nothing new, and it's not really broken. The Telflammar Shadowlord (one of the Faerun books) does the exact same thing, and given the wizard/gish base Pouncing is subpar anyway, so I don't really think that ability is overpowered at all.

So because one fairly obscure setting-dependent PrC can do something similar, albeit in a much more limited way, at a much higher level than this, with much less restrictive entry requirements, you don't see the problem?

You did see the part where it allows 2-3 full attacks in a round? Some very slight cheating with Duskblade and you've got stuff dying very quickly. Even less cheating with a normal wizard lets you go crazy nuts in melee more than you already could.

Honestly, I don't care what class is getting 2-3 full attacks in a round. If an ability lets me full attack twice in a round for basically free, it's overpowered and needs to be fixed.

[zenanarchist]

So because one fairly obscure setting-dependent PrC can do something similar, albeit in a much more limited way, at a much higher level than this, with much less restrictive entry requirements, you don't see the problem?

You did see the part where it allows 2-3 full attacks in a round? Some very slight cheating with Duskblade and you've got stuff dying very quickly. Even less cheating with a normal wizard lets you go crazy nuts in melee more than you already could.

Honestly, I don't care what class is getting 2-3 full attacks in a round. If an ability lets me full attack twice in a round for basically free, it's overpowered and needs to be fixed.

Gotta agree. I have a homebrewed class that gets another move action, but it costs him 2d10 damage to himself and doesn't grant another attack.

Getting 2-3 FULL attacks in a round is a bit broken....No?

Obscure munchkin shadow classes not withstanding it's probably best to change it out for something else or allow an extra single attack at his highest BAB.

But...I don't play so don't mind me.

[Jota]

So because one fairly obscure setting-dependent PrC can do something similar, albeit in a much more limited way, at a much higher level than this, with much less restrictive entry requirements, you don't see the problem?

You did see the part where it allows 2-3 full attacks in a round? Some very slight cheating with Duskblade and you've got stuff dying very quickly. Even less cheating with a normal wizard lets you go crazy nuts in melee more than you already could.

Honestly, I don't care what class is getting 2-3 full attacks in a round. If an ability lets me full attack twice in a round for basically free, it's overpowered and needs to be fixed.

What's a full attack compared to forcecage? Prismatic spray? Acid fog? Black tentacles?

You have to consider the base before you call anything overpowered. Building on inferior options available to a wizard is not overpowered.

Even for a duskblade, I'm not sure this is so ridiculous. I've know what optimized tier 3 melee builds look like. Two or three full attacks in a round is still subject to everything that sucks about melee combat (except maybe getting inside someone's reach). From a duskblade perspective, maybe this is a little too strong. That said, it's very easy to enter from other options as well and without something more specific (such as the duskblade's channeling class feature) as a prerequisite, you cannot dismiss this as overpowered out of hand.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The problem with the multiple full attacks is that you could still use two of them and cast a standard action spell. Or use one of them via a teleport spell and cast a swift action spell and a standard action spell. Last time I looked at the Shadowlord, they had no such versatility.

The issue with it is that it's insanely good for a gish, who has kept near full casting and can still smack someone around as an immediate or move action for basically free. That's what's so strong about it. It also boosts Arcane Strike and the usual Power Attack joys significantly, which no Gish would be without due to Heroics.

[Hyooz]

What's a full attack compared to forcecage? Prismatic spray? Acid fog? Black tentacles?

You have to consider the base before you call anything overpowered. Building on inferior options available to a wizard is not overpowered.

Even for a duskblade, I'm not sure this is so ridiculous. I've know what optimized tier 3 melee builds look like. Two or three full attacks in a round is still subject to everything that sucks about melee combat (except maybe getting inside someone's reach). From a duskblade perspective, maybe this is a little too strong. That said, it's very easy to enter from other options as well and without something more specific (such as the duskblade's channeling class feature) as a prerequisite, you cannot dismiss this as overpowered out of hand.

First: No. Bad. Don't use the highest-level wizard shenanigans as a baseline for balance or power.

Second: This class still has all that stuff.

Third: This isn't "a full attack." This is two full attacks from a considerably further distance than any other melee type might be able to pull off, or at very least, one full attack, initiated from a distance and ending at a distance. A dervish with a huge move speed might be able to do something like that. MIGHT.

Fourth: It takes only low-level wizard shenanigans to be a melee monster. This only makes that so much easier.

Fifth: The first level of this class gives you more versatility than the Shadowlord's whole class. You only give up two spellcasting levels for this. For that, you get better HD, better skills, FULL BAB, and the ability to just pop around the battlefield with incredible ease stabbing people.

[Jota]

First: No. Bad. Don't use the highest-level wizard shenanigans as a baseline for balance or power.

Second: This class still has all that stuff.

Third: This isn't "a full attack." This is two full attacks from a considerably further distance than any other melee type might be able to pull off, or at very least, one full attack, initiated from a distance and ending at a distance. A dervish with a huge move speed might be able to do something like that. MIGHT.

Fourth: It takes only low-level wizard shenanigans to be a melee monster. This only makes that so much easier.

Fifth: The first level of this class gives you more versatility than the Shadowlord's whole class. You only give up two spellcasting levels for this. For that, you get better HD, better skills, FULL BAB, and the ability to just pop around the battlefield with incredible ease stabbing people.

First: Why not? Give me one legitimate reason not to, given the potential for a wizard base. Until Lix specifically comes out and says "I'm aiming for tier X" you cannot tell me something is over- or underpowered in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Second: So what? If you have a wizard level (tier one) game and your wizard tells you he'd rather pretend to be a fighter than fight in an optimized matter, this only becomes an issue if his choice is underpowered to the point it jeopardizes the rest of the party.

Third: The distance comes from the spellcasting, which is already acknowledged as being above what 'melee types' traditionally accomplish. The actual damage from two full attacks is still unlikely to be that impressive (compared to other, optimized tier three builds -- it really doesn't matter after about 400 DPR weighted against AC 40 or so), even with a duskblade base.

Fourth: See second.

Fifth: Yes, I won't deny this. I've already conceded that this would be a strict upgrade for a duskblade, but I'm still not convinced that pushes it into tier two territory, ergo unconcerned.


The problem with the multiple full attacks is that you could still use two of them and cast a standard action spell. Or use one of them via a teleport spell and cast a swift action spell and a standard action spell. Last time I looked at the Shadowlord, they had no such versatility.

The issue with it is that it's insanely good for a gish, who has kept near full casting and can still smack someone around as an immediate or move action for basically free. That's what's so strong about it. It also boosts Arcane Strike and the usual Power Attack joys significantly, which no Gish would be without due to Heroics.

This comes down to unclear wording on the Flash Step ability (the part about teleportation spells being treated as move actions when used to tele-Pounce). What you're saying is using a quickened teleport (and a Pounce), then a move-action teleport (due to the wording -- and a Pounce), then casting. However, the ability says it's treated as a move action whenever you use the ability, so would that make your swift action casting consume a move action? It that is the case, then the combination you speak of cannot work. Even this quote from Lix leaves some uncertainty, given what I just mentioned and the use of quickened teleports:


The teleport IS the charge, so if it uses a move action, you still have a standard action-or a full attack, cause of pounce.


I had assumed this provided for two pounces per turn. If it allows two and you still have a standard left, then yes, this subverts the action economy and is probably overpowered, even on a tier one basis. I'll withhold further commentary until that is clarified. A desired level of balance would be appreciated as well.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

First: Why not? Give me one legitimate reason not to, given the potential for a wizard base. Until Lix specifically comes out and says "I'm aiming for tier X" you cannot tell me something is over- or underpowered in all but the most extreme circumstances.

If you want real ultimate power, then why not just play a Lightning Warrior or Pun-Pun?


Second: So what? If you have a wizard level (tier one) game and your wizard tells you he'd rather pretend to be a fighter than fight in an optimized matter, this only becomes an issue if his choice is underpowered to the point it jeopardizes the rest of the party.

The thing is, the opportunity cost of fighting like a fighter is minimal as you retain near full wizard casting. Sure, gishes are a little weaker than straight casters, but it can be an insignificant difference due to the extra option of using pointy sticks.


Third: The distance comes from the spellcasting, which is already acknowledged as being above what 'melee types' traditionally accomplish. The actual damage from two full attacks is still unlikely to be that impressive (compared to other, optimized tier three builds -- it really doesn't matter after about 400 DPR weighted against AC 40 or so), even with a duskblade base.

Well, yeah, but then you must realize that that AC 40 will probably be less due to things like Wraithstrike.


Fifth: Yes, I won't deny this. I've already conceded that this would be a strict upgrade for a duskblade, but I'm still not convinced that pushes it into tier two territory, ergo unconcerned.

This looks pretty good for a Duskblade, which is nice, but as much as I tend to prestige class, I still like the idea of prestige classes costing you something when you take them over your base class.


This comes down to unclear wording on the Flash Step ability (the part about teleportation spells being treated as move actions when used to tele-Pounce). What you're saying is using a quickened teleport (and a Pounce), then a move-action teleport (due to the wording -- and a Pounce), then casting. However, the ability says it's treated as a move action whenever you use the ability, so would that make your swift action casting consume a move action? It that is the case, then the combination you speak of cannot work. Even this quote from Lix leaves some uncertainty, given what I just mentioned and the use of quickened teleports:

I agree with you here. The Swiftblade is considered pretty damn good for its 9th level ability netting you an extra standard action. Even on the lower end, this class does partially that at 1st level. As the creator is still around to discuss the class, we can improve the wording to minimize such potential abuses.


I had assumed this provided for two pounces per turn. If it allows two and you still have a standard left, then yes, this subverts the action economy and is probably overpowered, even on a tier one basis. I'll withhold further commentary until that is clarified. A desired level of balance would be appreciated as well.

Generally, when you're PEACHing, it's probably a good bet to shoot for either a +0 or +1 PrC, depending on the intended tier. So, if this is meant for only Duskblades, I'd throw something on it to ensure such. But, yeah, largely agreed as has been stated.

[Milskidasith]

I judge PrCs this way:

No action economy abuse, period. It's broken no matter who you get. Usages for your swift actions are cool (provided it isn't something crazy like auto quickening all spells for free), extra actions/ways to subvert the action economy so you get more of X type of action (in this case, two of what would be full round actions and a standard action) are not.

It should probably be either +0 or +1 tier for any class. +2 PrCs are not good design, period; just because the Wizard can be Pun Pun doesn't mean that warblade PrCs need to let him instagib all opponents who aren't pun pun, or hurl the sun as a weapon.

No action economy abuse. I'm repeating this.

It's entry requirements should match what it is. +0 tier PrCs probably shouldn't have too much of a feat investment (one feat or two if they're both really good for the design anyway, though no feats but some other requirement can be appropriate), a bit more for +1 PrCs (a feat or two or maybe three, and some skill points). The entry requirements should always be useful for the intended class, even if they aren't core to it (for example, a +1 enchantment based PrC could require spell focus: enchantment even if it's not an amazing feat, but requiring point blank shot would be stupid).

Basically, this class is too easy to enter, and possibly a +2 tier PrC, depending on the entry. For optimized full casters, it's not great, but for gishes it's definitely a must take (It's free and grants you great abilities and you still keep your ninths!), and for melee classes it's worth dipping arcane casting just to access it, and for gish base classes like the Duskblade it's a straight upgrade, which is what a +2 PrC means.

Note: The tier thing for the PrC is very rarely "It moves up 2 tiers on the PrC" but rather a +2 PrC "It's strictly more powerful and offers far more options the base class; compared to a non PrC'd character of the same entry, it would be noticably weaker"; and a +1 PrC is "Compared to a non PrC'd class of the same entry, it's stronger but not so much they couldn't work together and still be useful to the team."

[Lix Lorn]

I removed a caster level, made the prerequisites harder (hard enough?) Cleared up/weakened Flash Step and made Flashmaster once/encounter.

Is that enough?

[Fizban]

I only know of two classes with Shadow Pounce, but in both cases you don't progress any spellcasting, and require at least 4-5 levels of the prestige class to get the ability. So, it looks like Shadow Pounce is not an ability you should have before 10th level, and based on the requirements it is not meant for spellcasters unless you do some heavy cross class skill/feat work and give up at least 5 levels of casting.

You class requires being able to cast dimension door, and BAB+6. These together should normally mean that you don't get Shadow Pounce until 11th level, which is good (unless we involve Abjurant Champion). But a Flashblade has only lost 3 levels of casting, if not less, while a member of the other classes has lost 5-7 levels of casting. And I really don't see any reason to take levels of this class once I've got the Shadow Pounce since there are plenty of other gish PrCs that I'd rather take (Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, etc). Furthermore, the other classes require at least two non-spellcasting feats to enter, while this class requires none.

So in the end the effective caster level loss is only 1 because the only ability that you want is right there in the first level, and any other levels lost before qualifying were spent in other PrCs that either advanced casting or gave other abilities that were worth it, and that 1 caster level is the only cost to get in because there are no other requirements. The only things that are going to fix the class are to push the signature ability back and have some actual requirements.

[Lix Lorn]

Would swapping Flash Step and Storm of Steel help?

And what kind of prerequisites would you recommend? :smallconfused:

[jiriku]

Maybe the ability could be expressed a different way. For example:


Flash Step (Ex):
I can kill you before you fire that arrow.
A Flashblade gains the Pounce special ability.

In addition, whenever she uses a teleportation effect, all of her attacks for the remainder of the round gain +2 to hit and have the charge descriptor. She may not combine this benefit with Pounce to make iterative attacks when attacking with a standard action or attack of opportunity.

Finally, a Flashblade may ignore the restriction on taking actions after using a dimension door.

The theme of the ability is present; if you can teleport as a swift or move action, your attacks count as charges (hello valorous weapon) and gain the charge bonus to hit. However, you don't actually gain extra attacks unless you're using a full-round action to initiate a charge, triggering pounce. Thus, no action abuse.

[Milskidasith]

Maybe the ability could be expressed a different way. For example:


Flash Step (Ex):
I can kill you before you fire that arrow.
A Flashblade gains the Pounce special ability.

In addition, whenever she uses a teleportation effect, all of her attacks for the remainder of the round gain +2 to hit and have the charge descriptor. She may not combine this benefit with Pounce to make iterative attacks when attacking with a standard action or attack of opportunity.

Finally, a Flashblade may ignore the restriction on taking actions after using a dimension door.

The theme of the ability is present; if you can teleport as a swift or move action, your attacks count as charges (hello valorous weapon) and gain the charge bonus to hit. However, you don't actually gain extra attacks unless you're using a full-round action to initiate a charge, triggering pounce. Thus, no action abuse.

Except that means that, unless you use your swift action to teleport, you can't teleport charge at all, and your move action teleports are nigh useless (well, for the intended benefit of "teleport and attack").

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah. What Milskidasith said. The teleport=charge thing is the core point of the class and what everything is built around. :/

[jiriku]

Oh, well, in that case I guess you're pretty much hosed then. Mayhap you could rebuild it by starting with the swiftblade chassis and swapping out swiftblade abilities for the class features you have here.

[Lix Lorn]

:smallconfused:
What exactly do you mean?

[Temotei]

:smallconfused:
What exactly do you mean?

My thoughts exactly. Taking another class and giving it these features...makes it this class again, except for the class skill list, requirements, hit die, etc. but I don't really see a problem with what's down right now.

[zenanarchist]

Maybe the key thing here to remember is:

At least it's not as broken as the wizard.

:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Temotei]

At least

That's never a good thing to see. :smallsigh:

[togapika]

Takes the vow of nudity...
Can you kill fifteen men faster than you can blink by showing them your nakedness? No? Then let me get on with it.

[Milskidasith]

What I'd recommend is either limiting the swift action teleports, or only allowing the move action teleports to get a charge at the end of them; the ability to port away after a full attack isn't super powerful but it is useful, but the ability to take two full attacks every round (with a nice positive to attack and an OK damage boost) is.

Of course, you can still full attack, port away, and cast in the same round with that method. Move action teleportation is tricky that way.

[jiriku]

What I mean is, the swiftblade is the nearest analogy to this class: a gish PrC with strong casting and melee capability plus class features that are just stupid good. Yet many praise it for flavor, fun, effectiveness, and balance.

So, you know, put the swiftblade up on blocks, swap out the engine, the shocks, the intake, the exhaust, give it new tires, a new interior, a new paint job, and then take her for a spin.

[Lix Lorn]

What I'd recommend is either limiting the swift action teleports, or only allowing the move action teleports to get a charge at the end of them; the ability to port away after a full attack isn't super powerful but it is useful, but the ability to take two full attacks every round (with a nice positive to attack and an OK damage boost) is.

Of course, you can still full attack, port away, and cast in the same round with that method. Move action teleportation is tricky that way.
I put the swift action teleports to once per encounter.
And I took out the bit about move actions. (Shrug) That should make it much less overpowered... I hope. I expressely prohibit using Flash Step to attack twice in a turn-wait, I can see one way you can do it once in an encounter. If you're already in melee range, you can full attack, swift teleport full attack. You do already need to be in melee range, with no armour and nothing to AC... but I should probably close that loophole. Thoughts?

[Lix Lorn]

I hate to double post, but:
Do people think this is usable now? Is there anything else needed to fine-tune it?