Does Enor's parantage bother any of you?

[paladinofshojo]

I don't know about you, but it certainly kind of creeps me out that a dragon and an ogre could interbreed.

[Zevox]

Dragons can and do breed with anything and everything in D&D. Comes with the fact that many are able to shape-shift naturally and those that can't often still take Polymorph or similar spells as part of their sorcerer repertoire.

Zevox

[paladinofshojo]

Dragons can and do breed with anything and everything in D&D. Comes with the fact that many are able to shape-shift naturally and those that can't often still take Polymorph or similar spells as part of their sorcerer repertoire.

Zevox

Ohh didn't know that, huh I guess it makes more sense than a dragon and an ogre interbreeding

[colonelslime]

Ohh didn't know that, huh I guess it makes more sense than a dragon and an ogre interbreeding

Wizards reaallllly loves Dragons. In almost anything wizard related, it is best to think of dragons less as "Giant, flying Fire-breathing Lizard" and more as "One step below a God".

[tahu88810]

Wizards reaallllly loves Dragons. In almost anything wizard related, it is best to think of dragons less as "Giant, flying Fire-breathing Lizard" and more as "One step below a God".

Save for the fact that they're easily slain and not very strong.

[Mando Knight]

Honestly, by stats, the oldest dragons often are the closest thing many of the Monster Manuals have to a god... (though 4e's MM3 will have (does have? Lost track of the release date) Llolth, and I haven't gone through all of the 3.5 MMs but I wouldn't be surprised if they had a god or two in there as well)

That, and Humans, for all their infamous breeding abilities in D&D, come in behind dragons and gods in cross-species reproductive activity.

[Eloi]

I don't know about you, but it certainly kind of creeps me out that a dragon and an ogre could interbreed.

Well the dragon was probably the female, and again, shape-shifting.

[Luzahn]

I thought he was half dragon, half half-ogre?

[Mystic Muse]

Dragons can breed with pretty much anything that can move.

Half dragon oozes are a valid monster I believe.

[Zevox]

Half dragon oozes are a valid monster I believe.
They are. I had to fight a Half-Dragon Black Pudding in a play-by-post game once. Yeah, I didn't ask, I just killed the damn thing.

Zevox

[Fargazer]

Honestly, by stats, the oldest dragons often are the closest thing many of the Monster Manuals have to a god... (though 4e's MM3 will have (does have? Lost track of the release date) Llolth, and I haven't gone through all of the 3.5 MMs but I wouldn't be surprised if they had a god or two in there as well)

That, and Humans, for all their infamous breeding abilities in D&D, come in behind dragons and gods in cross-species reproductive activity.

Dieties and Demigods is full of Godlike stats. Of course, it is AD&D.

[John Cribati]

Half-Dragon Black Pudding

-___- What.

[factotum]

I had to fight a Half-Dragon Black Pudding in a play-by-post game once.

That sounds even better than Belkar's 1d3 dire camels in a swamp... :smallsmile:

[Procyonpi]

They are. I had to fight a Half-Dragon Black Pudding in a play-by-post game once. Yeah, I didn't ask, I just killed the damn thing.

Zevox

Wah? Don't black puddings reproduce through fission?

[Black]

A wizard did it.

[Johel]

-___- What.

Sometimes, young dragons are just that curious.
With experience, they learn not to stick it in anything warm and slimy. :smalltongue:

It probably was a black dragon.
Acid immunity helps a lot...

[The Rose Dragon]

I thought he was half dragon, half half-ogre?

No, he's a half-dragon half-ogre, which means he's an ogre with the half-dragon template. I think. The whole half-something templates could really use some clarification on their naming schemes, especially when they are applied to creatures who have their own half-something templates.

[hamishspence]

Half-ogres exist in the strip- Roy fought one which had a spiked chain.

The half-dragon template can be applied to one- which would make it a half-dragon half-ogre.

By default, when the half-dragon template is applied to an ordinary creature, it doesn't get the "half" prefix added to the non-dragon part of its name.

So you have half-dragon trolls, half-dragon elves, half-dragon orcs, and so on.

He states he is not a half-dragon ogre- he is a half dragon half ogre. This could just be him not understanding the way templates are phrased, or, it could be a statement of fact.

[Tass]

I thought he was half dragon, half half-ogre?

Two descriptions were named: Half dragon ogre, and half dragon - half ogre.

Never anything with half half ogre.


He states he is not a half-dragon ogre- he is a half dragon half ogre. This could just be him not understanding the way templates are phrased, or, it could be a statement of fact.

Yeah, Enor is the stupid one so I'll go with the last. Or rather he is the simple one, thinking "only one of my parents was an ogre so I am only half ogre". Just like Therkla understood the illogical naming conventions of the world and the orc chief didn't.

[hamishspence]

Half-ogres have the advantage of not having racial hit dice- they make much better player races than ogres.

Even with the half-dragon template, it isn't too bad.

That's why I thought half-dragon half-ogre was a bit more plausible.

The Class and Level Geekery thread also went with assuming Enor was correct, rather than stupid, in this context.

[Tass]

He is correct.

Just not D&D savvy.

[Closak]

It's true, dragons will have sex with anything that moves.

Seriously, i know of a half-dragon hydra, a half-dragon lizardman, a half-dragon ooze, a half-dragon man-eating PLANT, a half-dragon dwarf...and so on.

[derfenrirwolv]

ENOR PARANTAGE IMPLY UGLY BACK STORY

Its not nearly as disturbing as some of the combinations out there. They're both sentient and similarly sized beings with spinal cords.

[Ancalagon]

ENOR PARANTAGE IMPLY UGLY BACK STORY

You mean... as bad as Therkla's? ;)

[Niveus Candidus]

Wizards reaallllly loves Dragons. In almost anything wizard related, it is best to think of dragons less as "Giant, flying Fire-breathing Lizard" and more as "One step below a God".

Dragons are far from Godlike under 3.5 rules. They are designed in a peculiar way so as to appear to have too low of a CR, but in truth are extremely easy to defeat by knowledgeable players. As with most advancing monsters, they are harder at the low end of play than at the high end.


Honestly, by stats, the oldest dragons often are the closest thing many of the Monster Manuals have to a god

3.5 has an official source book with not only the rules for Gods, which shows that various extraplanar beings representing their alignment are far closer in nature to Godhood, but contains the stats for all of the major ones as well. Its an important book--because prior to its release we were having difficulty killing these beings and taking their stuff. Fighting a vaguely defined concept is far more difficult than something that has hit points, after all.


Dragons can breed with pretty much anything that can move.

Half-dragons are a rite of passage for characters passing through mid-levels. Besides teaching them that dragons will mate with anything, I have fought Half-Dragon oozes and Half-Dragon Chuul numerous times, they are a known way for DMs way to screw with his or her PCs. The template is easily applied and occasionally renders monsters nearly invincible ("So we have to beat the Half-Dragon troll to negative numbers and then drown it again? Is it Tuesday already?") by covering up a creature's weaknesses.


Half-ogres have the advantage of not having racial hit dice

Generally speaking, anything with a ECL over 0 is a player nerf, at upper levels of play, for any class with magic. This represents the better classes.

[Ancalagon]

Dragons are far from Godlike under 3.5 rules. They are designed in a peculiar way so as to appear to have too low of a CR, but in truth are extremely easy to defeat by knowledgeable players. As with most advancing monsters, they are harder at the low end of play than at the high end.

Well, most CHARACTERS do not have such knowledge... leaving out all the ooc-metagamge-munch-knowledge makes it much, much more tricky. There's a reason players are not really supposed to know the MM (yes, it does not work that way in the real world - but I think it's how the game is planned).


3.5 has an official source book with not only the rules for Gods, which shows that various extraplanar beings representing their alignment are far closer in nature to Godhood, but contains the stats for all of the major ones as well. Its an important book--because prior to its release we were having difficulty killing these beings and taking their stuff. Fighting a vaguely defined concept is far more difficult than something that has hit points, after all.

Doesn't that book state those stats are of no importance to mortals and only matter in the relation of gods vs. other beings with a divine mod of 0 or higher?



Generally speaking, anything with a ECL over 0 is a player nerf, at upper levels of play, for any class with magic. This represents the better classes.

Don't you mean a level adjustment or so?

[Nilan8888]

Not that it bothers me one way or the other, but could it not be possible that Enor was created rather than born?

I mean, he's clearly not a Golem, but maybe a wizard did the equivalent of gene-splicing and Enor was born in a sort of alchemy test-tube scenario?

I'm just throwing out possibilities here.

[Niveus Candidus]

Well, most CHARACTERS do not have such knowledge... leaving out all the ooc-metagamge-munch-knowledge makes it much, much more tricky. There's a reason players are not really supposed to know the MM (yes, it does not work that way in the real world - but I think it's how the game is planned).

Knowledge checks and in character experiences quickly identify Dragons, especially those of traditional colors, as easy encounters.


Doesn't that book state those stats are of no importance to mortals and only matter in the relation of gods vs. other beings with a divine mod of 0 or higher?

Which is why you ascend before you fight them. What's your character's goal?


Don't you mean a level adjustment or so?

Yep! Alternately, it can be said that anything above tier 3 with an effective character level higher than its total class levels is retarded in their goal of reshaping the world as they see fit.

[derfenrirwolv]

Knowledge checks and in character experiences quickly identify Dragons, especially those of traditional colors, as easy encounters.


It shouldn't. Any dragon other than a young white is smart enough to know its weaknesses and cover for them. Dragons cast spells, can buy, make, and use items (including rings and potions), and can use the lair to their advantage. (its hard to cast cone of cold at a red dragon swimming in lava for instance)

[WowWeird]

I mean, he's clearly not a Golem, but maybe a wizard did the equivalent of gene-splicing and Enor was born in a sort of alchemy test-tube scenario?

I'm just throwing out possibilities here.

Well, no offense, but wizards do some wacky crap from time to time.

[Phoenix Xul]

inb4rumorsofO-Chulhavingdragonparentage

[Querzis]

Knowledge checks and in character experiences quickly identify Dragons, especially those of traditional colors, as easy encounters.

Only because the DM is on your side. Any adult dragon is smart and wise enough to get rid of his weakness. You're going at this backwards, yes sure if you're a bunch of munchkins who knows all of the dragons weakness and got as much time to prepare as they want killing a dragon controlled by a DM is easy. Now take control of a dragon and try to kill a level-appropriate group of adventurers, you'll quickly find out that you dont especially need anything else then attack them before they are ready for you.

Dragon are smarter and wiser then you and have access to lots of spells, equipment and ressources. The only reason you ever killed a dragon is because the DM is nice.

[Niveus Candidus]

It shouldn't. Any dragon other than a young white is smart enough to know its weaknesses and cover for them. Dragons cast spells, can buy, make, and use items (including rings and potions), and can use the lair to their advantage. (its hard to cast cone of cold at a red dragon swimming in lava for instance)

How is this different from any other intelligent D&D monster with spells that is encountered in its lair and is prepared for party member attacks? I was not speaking about what you can do to a dragon but what a dragon is. Use enough 3.5 rules and you will have a Kobold named Pun-Pun.

Contrast a CR 26 Great Red Wyrm to a CR 26 Infernal. Perhaps even a CR 24 Stone Colossus or CR 22 Anaxim. Those are much scarier sources of XP RAW, each with far less treasure benefit attached.


Dragon are smarter and wiser then you and have access to lots of spells, equipment and ressources. The only reason you ever killed a dragon is because the DM is nice.

Dragons have mental scores in the 30s. Not smarter than level-appropriate Wizards or Clerics. They have no more access to resources than level-appropriate PCs. Less sometimes, as there are fewer ye olde magic shops willing to sell to them on the material plane and they rarely have level appropriate divine spells to craft items with.

As for my nice dungeon masters, well ... My DM's have traditionally been blood-thirsty twinks that confer with other blood-thirsty twinks on how to best sate their thirst for blood with my character's blood. Its been unfortunate for my supply of blood. I've still beaten dragons, as have many other D&D players.

[Telonius]

Shackled City has a couple other odd examples.
Draconic Fingerlings - half dragon, half kuo-toa. Basically a swarm of tadpoles with dragon heads.
Zarki Dhor - half dragon, half minotaur.

[Kish]

Use enough 3.5 rules and you will have a Kobold named Pun-Pun.
No, you'll only have a kobold named Pun-Pun if you're playing in a homebrewed campaign world with 1) sarrukhs imported from the Forgotten Realms and 2) a "no one will interfere with anything you're doing" as a house rule.

(I'm not even going to bother to address the, "The first thing my paladin does is say 'Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu.' The demon lord doesn't snicker and inform him that he doesn't get any wishes because he has never actually been any alignment but Chaotic Evil and his belief that he was a paladin was just a delusion," line of silliness. Oh, oops, I just did.)

[Niveus Candidus]

No, you'll only have a kobold named Pun-Pun if you're playing in a homebrewed campaign world with 1) sarrukhs imported from the Forgotten Realms and 2) a "no one will interfere with anything you're doing" as a house rule.

Exactly! I am glad you agree with me. :smallbiggrin:

Just because a monster can be deadly if you play with it, such as all this chatter about how dragon weaknesses being overcome through careful thought, doesn't mean the creature is inherently any deadlier than another monster of similar CR. Dragons have weaknesses that must be overcome by the DM rather than their MM entry to present a challenge--they're actually kind of over CR for this reason alone.

[Nilan8888]

Well, no offense, but wizards do some wacky crap from time to time.

It would be totally awesome if I COULD take offense to your remark, sir. Becuase that would mean I'd be a wizard, and do all kinds of wacky crap.

Unfotunately I'm stuck to this existance. And while I assure you what I do is crap, it isn't really very wacky. I blame J.K Rowling for this.

[Dr.Epic]

No more than Therkla's. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html)

[Scarlet Knight]

-___- What.

Father dragon to son: "We'll just tell your mother we ate the pudding..."

:smallredface:

[derfenrirwolv]

Contrast a CR 26 Great Red Wyrm to a CR 26 Infernal. Perhaps even a CR 24 Stone Colossus or CR 22 Anaxim. Those are much scarier sources of XP RAW, each with far less treasure benefit attached.

The Great red Wyrm functions as a 19th level sorcerer. The others do not. The others will loose or at least be an easier encounter.







Dragons have mental scores in the 30s. Not smarter than level-appropriate Wizards or Clerics. They have no more access to resources than level-appropriate PCs. Less sometimes, as there are fewer ye olde magic shops willing to sell to them on the material plane and they rarely have level appropriate divine spells to craft items with.

a Great red wyrm functions as a 19th level wizard. They can pop over to sygil for an afternoon of shopping, take in a show, and be back to their lair before the evenings BBQ. Also, the dragon qualifies for EVERY magic item making feat in the book. They don't have to outsource.



As for my nice dungeon masters, well ... My DM's have traditionally been blood-thirsty twinks that confer with other blood-thirsty twinks on how to best sate their thirst for blood with my character's blood. Its been unfortunate for my supply of blood. I've still beaten dragons, as have many other D&D players

You ARE supposed to win at the end, but it shouldn't be an EASY fight with a properly played dragon.

[Cealocanth]

As an answer to the original question, yes. Especially so that I created my avatar thinking he was a Dragonborn and used Enor as a template, and the very next day he was revealed as a half dragon half ogre. :smalleek:

But I'm the artist after all. I decided to take artistic liscense and say that he (my avatar) is an extremely strong Dragonborn with high Charisma and has no ogre in his genes whatsoever.

Now, playgrounders, return to your debate on the power of dragons. Bahamut is pleased with the supporters of their strength, very pleased...

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

The dragon was bored and demented and the ogre was...well...and ogre.

[Revlid]

A half-dragon had a baby with a half-ogre.. The result was half-human, quarter-dragon, quarter-ogre. That then bred with a dragon, resulting in a half-dragon, third-human, sixth-ogre. That then bred with an ogre, resulting in a 3/8th dragon, 3/8th ogre, with only a smattering of human. Close enough :smallamused:.

[derfenrirwolv]

D&D, where genealogy requires a degree in calculus.

[dgnslyr]

Liberal application of alcohol and polymorph, maybe?

[Scarlet Knight]

Donkey: " I don't get it! Everytime I tell Shrek I'm going out out, he laughs!"

Puss in Boots: " Say, is that not Shrek leaving your backdoor?"

:smallwink:

[paddyfool]

When this last came up, I seem to recall suggesting that if one parent was an Ogre Mage, then both parents could have been shapeshifted for extra hijinks. They might even have both thought the other was of the same species as themselves.