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DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 10:23 PM
would Force missile mage and the argent savant PRCs stack and also does anyone know where I can find a list of force spells?

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 10:27 PM
You mean damage-wise? Yes; the FMM gives you extra dice, and the AS adds an untyped bonus to each die.
The extra lost CL isn't really worth it for Argent Savant, but it's a fun combination from a fluff standpoint.

(Note though that FMM doesn't really do much for other force spells like Orb of Force)

As for spell search, this should help. (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php)

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 10:29 PM
You want to use the Force (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells&tablefilter=force)?

DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 10:38 PM
wow, theres more force spells then I thought.

I like the the argent savant's unbind force feature. trap a group of mobs in a resilient sphere then unbind it and do 4d6 damage to all the mobs.

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 10:46 PM
wow, theres more force spells then I thought.

I like the the argent savant's unbind force feature. trap a group of mobs in a resilient sphere then unbind it and do 4d6 damage to all the mobs.

If direct damage is your bag, Ice Storm is from the same school and does 5d6 damage to a much larger area, and only takes one action. Of course, Tentacles do it better. Oh the gropinggrappling and the intrusiondamage.

DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 10:58 PM
True, but the point of the PRCs is to be a "force" to be reckoned with.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-22, 11:00 PM
You shouldn't Force the pun like that.

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 11:05 PM
Sorry to Force my way back in to the conversation, but Resilient Sphere also only effects one creature.

PId6
2010-06-22, 11:06 PM
I don't think I can force myself to forget all the bad puns I've read today. :smallfrown:

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 11:08 PM
I don't think I can force myself to forget all the bad puns I've read today. :smallfrown:

Sounds like a job for Mindrape.

DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 11:08 PM
Then I guess it would be force cage. you know this might be a good set up for a sorcerer as the high CHA it would give him quite the force of personality.

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 11:12 PM
These are not the spells you're looking for.

Maybe you could forceconvince your DM to let you play a limited list caster like Warmage, except only force spells are on the list. What would you call it though?

PId6
2010-06-22, 11:17 PM
Jedi, obviously.

DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 11:19 PM
Could energy substitution turn fireball into a forceball?

PId6
2010-06-22, 11:20 PM
Could energy substitution turn fireball into a forceball?
No, only fire, cold, acid, electricity.

dextercorvia
2010-06-22, 11:21 PM
Afraid not. Energy sub only changes type to fire, cold, acid, or electricity

Edit: Rogue'd

DragonsAion
2010-06-22, 11:24 PM
Jedi, obviously.

Just give him a brilliant energy weapon and you got your self one.

Well dang, so much for adding to the spell list.

Hague
2010-06-22, 11:58 PM
Ah, but if you prepare spells from a spellbook you can take the Elven Spell Lore feat for Fireball and prepare it with any energy type you'd like. Of course, then I'd just pick up Ice Storm and use Force Storm instead. Cone of Force even. Interestingly enough, the errata doesn't correct this meaning you can make positive energy and negative energy attacks too. It also doesn't indicate that the actual descriptor of the spell changes either, but a DM would be quick to rule that into order.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 12:04 AM
so what whould a force centered caster look like? I mean feat and other spells wise.

Knaight
2010-06-23, 12:31 AM
Could energy substitution turn fireball into a forceball?

I don't think there is any way to force it to.

Hague
2010-06-23, 01:22 AM
Elf (or some other race with a martial weapon proficiency standard) / Evoker 8/ Abjurant Champion 4 / Argent Savant 3 / Bladesinger 4 / Force Missile Mage 1

Pick up Practiced Spellcaster to recover the lost caster levels from Argent Savant/Bladesinger and FMM. Extend doesn't double twice when abjuration force spells overlap, but the additional bonuses are interesting. If you pick up Mass Mage Armor, you can grant your allies +10 AC. You yourself can get the effect of greater Mage armor and shield, granting you +22 AC not including dodge bonuses from Bladesong Style. Liberally use Sword of Deception and Mordenkainen's sword in combat along with Bigby spells. Song of Celerity will let you cast volleys of quickened Magic missiles every turn and Swift Abjuration lets you do the same. Spell penetration feats aid your magic missiles while you use liberal amounts of extended abjuration to protect you from multiple threats. Pick up Elven Spell Lore for your most powerful evocations and give them the force energy type. Alternately, take Abjurer and focus on more abjuration spells.

Hendel
2010-06-23, 01:34 AM
Argent Savant is a good Prestige Class, but the caster level loss does hurt. I have a sorcerer who specializes in force Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 5/Loremaster 18 and the two spells I still use the most are Orb of Force and Wings of Force. With Arcane Thesis and a few Improved Metamagics I can use them as 4th level spells and do some massive damage. Combine these with Greater Arcane Fusion and you have some truly epic combat potential.

Wings of Force is great for crowd control if they do not have evasion. Orbs of Force are great for the one on one battles or against golems.

Wings of Cover is awesome to save you from that one strike that you do not want to take. Plus I have Imbue Familiar so I give him some Wings of Cover so that he can defend me when needed and I can still use my swift/immediate action for casting quickened spells each round.

The unbind feature of the PrC is okay but I have used it only once or twice. It is not very effective. The free extend to all of my force spells is nice, but now that I use Epic Mage Armor, I don't get that on my armor as you cannot apply metamagic (even free ones) to Epic Spells. It is still nice that all my other force effects, like shield, are still extended.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 09:58 AM
Practiced spell caster would help with that.

So what are good force support spells or are there any? Feat wise I'm looking at practiced spell caster, spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Any ideas on what the next four would be?

Oh yeah, has anyone here made a custom PRC? I'm thinking of combining the Force missile mage and the argent savant into one 10 level PRC.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-23, 10:29 AM
Practiced spell caster would help with that.

So what are good force support spells or are there any? Feat wise I'm looking at practiced spell caster, spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Any ideas on what the next four would be?

Oh yeah, has anyone here made a custom PRC? I'm thinking of combining the Force missile mage and the argent savant into one 10 level PRC.

Since the two PrCs in question are 5 levels each... what's to combine? :smallconfused: Take FMM, then take AS.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 10:38 AM
Since the two PrCs in question are 5 levels each... what's to combine? :smallconfused: Take FMM, then take AS.

Well, a 10-level combination could only lose 1 CL without being overpowered, rather than two.

One could also improve the synergy between them; the only things they have in common are a damage boost to magic missile, and that FMM's swift Shield will get a boost from the AS Force Armor ability. FMM doesn't do much for orbs or other force attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-06-23, 10:53 AM
The natural thing to do is to stack as much colorful metamagic as you can on the MMs. All of the Fell X metamagics from Libris Mortis would work, and making them Moilian would add a bit more damage. Then you just spread your missiles out across as many foes as you can and stack on negative levels, fear effects, and str penalities all around.

Another thing you could do is using FMM's ability to reflavor your MMs, you could get electric missilles then apply Born of the Three Thunders to them for a chance to stun multiple foes per round.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-23, 11:06 AM
Well, a 10-level combination could only lose 1 CL without being overpowered, rather than two.

One could also improve the synergy between them; the only things they have in common are a damage boost to magic missile, and that FMM's swift Shield will get a boost from the AS Force Armor ability. FMM doesn't do much for orbs or other force attacks.

True...

I always felt that FMM should also affect the spell "Chain Missle" at the very least.

Of course, I don't believe that the Orb of Force spell really needs all that much help... it's already the "spell of choice" for mid-level blasters.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 11:23 AM
well you could make it so that FMM class freature that lets you add fire, cold, acid, and elecectity damage to your magic missile applys to all damaging force spells. you could also do the same for the overwhelming missile and bonus missile class features.

Hendel
2010-06-23, 11:42 AM
So what are good force support spells or are there any? Feat wise I'm looking at practiced spell caster, spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Any ideas on what the next four would be?

As mentioned Fell Drain is a great complement to your Magic Missiles, especially since you can cast more with your Force Missile Mage PrC. SR is still going to be an issue, but you seem to have that worked out with Practiced Spellcaster and the Spell Penetration feats. You might also look into a Third Eye Penetrate to get an extra +2 on that as well. Pick up a Ring of Arcane Might (or two as it is an unnamed bonus), a Robe of Arcane Might (evocation), and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

Arcane Thesis in Magic Missile would further reduce the amount of additional slots needed to metamagic it, plus add an additional +2 to caster level. At 20th level you would be casting Magic Missile as a 32nd level caster when you need to bust SR. That is pretty good.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 12:06 PM
I think Argent Savant gives you a +2 to over come SR as well. I'm AFB right now.

Hendel
2010-06-23, 12:11 PM
I think Argent Savant gives you a +2 to over come SR as well. I'm AFB right now.

No, but you are correct that a Force Missile Mage does so that would be 34+1d20 to overcome SR at 20th level. Nice!

Edit: Oh yeah, for Orb of Force, take Enhance Spell as an Epic Metamagic feat and you can do 20d6 instead of 10d6.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 12:36 PM
34+1d20? Wouldn't that be 26+1d20 or am I missing something?

CL(20) + spell penetration (4) +2 (class bonus)

Keld Denar
2010-06-23, 01:19 PM
If you took the feat Acane Mastery from Complete Arcane, you could take 10 on the CL check for SR, giving you at least SR36 by level 20.

And thats not including a couple levels in Archmage to gain another couple +CL bonuses since nothing else in Archmage would really benefit this type of character. You don't need Master of Shaping or Arcane Reach to spam MMs, and FMM already gives you Master of Elements. Taking MM as a SLA would be foolish because then you couldn't pile 10 metamagic feats onto it.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 01:28 PM
I'm gonna draw this up when I get home today and post it on the board. still not sure what class would be best for this sorcerer or wizard but I'm leaning torward wizard.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 01:46 PM
I think Argent Savant gives you a +2 to over come SR as well. I'm AFB right now.

Afraid not. It does give you +4 to resist your force spells being countered or dispelled though.


I'm gonna draw this up when I get home today and post it on the board. still not sure what class would be best for this sorcerer or wizard but I'm leaning torward wizard.

Wizard is better if you have lots of force spells available, because then you can learn them all. (Howling Chain, Orb, MM and it's big brothers, Force Chest, Manyjaws etc.)

On the other hand, the one-trick pony nature of the class suits Sorcerers well. Your one spell becomes several by piling on metamagic, changing the energy type, and spamming like crazy. Because you'll primarily be working with low-level spells, the slower spell progression doesn't hurt you as much either.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 01:50 PM
I think I'll do a build for both then and then we can see who is better suited.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 01:51 PM
Also, Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry are great Sorcerer-only Force spells.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 03:04 PM
what book are those in?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 03:07 PM
They're both in Races of the Dragon

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 03:08 PM
I don't have that book so I'll have to go PDF diving.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 05:18 PM
Also, Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry are great Sorcerer-only Force spells.

Ah, I forgot those had the force descriptor. One point for sorc then.

@ DragonsAion: The PDFs are no longer available legally, so you might want to avoid mentioning them if that is truly your intent.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 06:31 PM
I already own the PDFs. I just ment looking through them.

Hendel
2010-06-23, 07:22 PM
34+1d20? Wouldn't that be 26+1d20 or am I missing something?

CL(20) + spell penetration (4) +2 (class bonus)

I was including the magic items that I mentioned in my earlier post (two rings of Arcane Might, Robe of Arcane Might: Evocation, Ioun Stone, and a Third Eye Penetrate), plus Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile.

One point, however, is that there are still much better force spells than Magic Missile for damage potential. The nice thing about Magic Missile is that it is first level so with Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic (for the dragon types), and Improved metamagic there is a lot that you can do with them.


Also, Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry are great Sorcerer-only Force spells.

That is why the "Force Sorcerer" is better than the "Force Wizard" in this case. Like I mentioned in my post, I never leave home without them.

dextercorvia
2010-06-23, 07:31 PM
That is why the "Force Sorcerer" is better than the "Force Wizard" in this case. Like I mentioned in my post, I never leave home without them.

A Wizard7/Recaster4 can get both of those spells, although he loses a caster level. This puts him about even with the Sorcerer, except he can actually learn all the other Force spells.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 07:32 PM
Sounds like a job for Mindrape.

Like every other job, in my experience. :0

dextercorvia
2010-06-23, 07:36 PM
If you have room (especially if you are getting Wings of Flurry) you could take Invisible Needle, not for the attack, but the +1CL to Force spells. Arcane Thesis is probably a good idea for WoF as well, both for the CL boost and the reduced metamagic cost.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-23, 09:56 PM
If you have room (especially if you are getting Wings of Flurry) you could take Invisible Needle, not for the attack, but the +1CL to Force spells. Arcane Thesis is probably a good idea for WoF as well, both for the CL boost and the reduced metamagic cost.

Actually, if you can spare the Feats, get all the Force Reserve Feats... the +1 CL to Force spells each one gives stack (CMage says so).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 09:58 PM
There's only two, but yeah, that's a good plan.

DragonsAion
2010-06-23, 10:32 PM
once I`m done with the build where would i test it out?

Hendel
2010-06-23, 11:15 PM
A Wizard7/Recaster4 can get both of those spells, although he loses a caster level. This puts him about even with the Sorcerer, except he can actually learn all the other Force spells.

Remember, you do not need ALL the force spells, just the important ones!


once I`m done with the build where would i test it out?

Put it up here with a spoiler tag. I for one would like to see it. Heck, I can post my build (I didn't use the Force Missile Mage) if you or anyone else is interested.

By the way, what is the level of your build?

Hague
2010-06-23, 11:22 PM
You can get Improved Floating disc to give you a 20 ft perfect flying. Not the greatest, but it's still a force spell :P

Hendel
2010-06-23, 11:31 PM
You can get Improved Floating disc to give you a 20 ft perfect flying. Not the greatest, but it's still a force spell :P

I go with Overland Flight followed by Wings of Swift Flying (force) every morning. You can fly with average maneuverability for hours at a time with a fly speed of 70ft (80ft if you are dragonblooded!). Its the only way to fly!

DragonsAion
2010-06-24, 11:04 AM
Remember, you do not need ALL the force spells, just the important ones!



Put it up here with a spoiler tag. I for one would like to see it. Heck, I can post my build (I didn't use the Force Missile Mage) if you or anyone else is interested.

By the way, what is the level of your build?

the build level will be 20th level. that way I can see the classes at thier best.

Hague
2010-06-24, 04:25 PM
Interesting tactic would be to use Greater Floating Disks as contingencies. Load one up with something heavy. Use Unbind force on it after you float it above an enemies head (only 15 feet away from you, max, though) Unbind force does 4d6 damage in 10 ft burst then they make a reflex save vs. a deadfall trap.

Alternately, you can try counterspelling any force spell to deal damage. Though, it would depend on the spell as to whether the caster was hit in the resulting explosion.

Imagine some creature pinging away with heightened magic missiles only to have one counterspelled like this and blow up in the rear of the enemy group, no doubt hitting other vulnerable enemies.

Keld Denar
2010-06-24, 05:07 PM
I go with Overland Flight followed by Wings of Swift Flying (force) every morning. You can fly with average maneuverability for hours at a time with a fly speed of 70ft (80ft if you are dragonblooded!). Its the only way to fly!

Add Heart of Air for an extra 10 feet of movement speed on top of that. Its in Complete Mage.

DragonsAion
2010-06-25, 01:09 PM
Ok, went through my books looking for force spells and found more then i thought I would and now that that is done I be working on stats.

So my question is how do you playgrounders do stats for test builds like this? right now i'm looking at 32 point buy or just rolling.

Hendel
2010-06-25, 03:53 PM
Ok, went through my books looking for force spells and found more then i thought I would and now that that is done I be working on stats.

So my question is how do you playgrounders do stats for test builds like this? right now i'm looking at 32 point buy or just rolling.

Depends on the DM. I have rolled 4d6 discard one and use those. I have done the point buy. I have done the array such as 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

The most interesting, and easiest, is when the DM says spend 85 to 90 points across six ability scores. Usually, it was with the direction of no score over 18 or below 8 until you apply racial modifiers. This makes for easy character creation and pretty powerful important stats and weak dump stats.

DragonsAion
2010-06-25, 04:13 PM
I think it's the DMG and the PHB2 that has a list of the arrays that can be used right?

Hendel
2010-06-25, 04:17 PM
I think it's the DMG and the PHB2 that has a list of the arrays that can be used right?

DMG page 169 but I always thought those ways made somewhat underpowered characters, but that is just my opinion.

DragonsAion
2010-06-25, 04:30 PM
This is just a test build so I want to use base stats to work off of.

The only reason I'm asking about the DMG arrays is because I'm AFB right now.

Bagel
2010-06-25, 06:19 PM
here is a build I've been playing with for a while, did a ton of google searches for old threads involving FMM and Metamagics.

If you want to know any of the sources just ask, most of this stuff is from the complete/races of series of books.


Silverbrow Human
Stalwart Sorcerer 6 [Metamagic Specialist]
Force Missile Mage 5
War Mage of Krynn 5 [Age of Mortals]
Argent Savant 4

Features
Sphere [+1CL Force , -2CL Sonic] – Dragon Magazine #330 Pg. 94

Flaws:
Murky Eyed - Unearthed Arcana Pg. 91
Restricted Sorcery [Necromancy, Illusion] - Dragon Magazine #327 Pg. 93


Stats 32 buy
1.Cha 18
2.Int 14
3.Dex 12
4.Wis 10
5.Con 10
6.Str 8

Feats
1 Relicguard Spell, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Combat Casting
3 Eschew Materials
6 Arcane Thesis: Magic missile
9 Fiery Spell
12 Easy Metamagic [Repeat]
13 Maximize Spell [WMoK]
15 Practical Metamagic [Twin], Empower Spell [WMoK]
18 Easy Metamagic [Twin],

Spells

Level 0
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Light
Amanuensis
Mage Hand
Stick
Caltrops
Mending
Level 1
Magic Missile
Mage Armor
Shield
True Strike
True Casting
Level 2
Blast of Force
Wings of Cover
Create Magic Tattoo
Glitterdust
Rope Trick
Level 3
Chain Missile
Unicorn Arrow
Manyjaws
Haste
Level 4
Orb of Force
Wings of Flurry
Celerity
Solid Fog
Level 5
Arcane Fusion
Greater Dimensional Door
Wall of Force
Telekinesis
Level 6
Bigby’s Forceful Hand
Greater Dispel Magic
Contingency
Level 7
Limited Wish
Arcane Spellsurge
Forcecage
Level 8
Greater Arcane Fusion
Level 9
Time Stop

Obvious turn economy breakage with spellsurge/Fusuion/twin/repeating
War Mage of Krynn + Argent Savant + FMM [fire addition] + Fiery = 7d4+42 in a normal casting of Magic Missile

yes it is setting specific[Dragonlance], but you could easily ask your DM to overule that if its a homebrew world.

Bagel
2010-06-26, 07:29 PM
hmm, i might trade out grease for true strike to help with orbs and rays to get past SR earlier.

Hendel
2010-06-27, 05:00 AM
hmm, i might trade out grease for true strike to help with orbs and rays to get past SR earlier.

A good use for Arcane Fusion is to use the 1st level slot to cast True Strike and then the 4th cast Orb of Force (if you have arcane thesis with easy metamagic, practical metamagic, or improved metamagic it can still be 4th level with some metamagic applied). I use this if my oponent has a really high touch AC.

Bagel
2010-06-28, 08:02 PM
dropped nerveskitter from spell list in favor of true casting (CM).

i can just supplement the loss with eternal wands of nerveskitter

eternal wands of level 1-2 spells are not only inexpensive but very very useful if you have multiples :)