[3.5] Most Versatile Spontaneous Caster

[Allanimal]

I'm still fairly new to 3.5, and my group has a new campaign starting soon.
I am considering taking on the arcane caster role, but I find the daily spell selection to be tedious.
Therefore, I am looking for the spontaneous caster class with the most versatility. The sorcerer has a huge selection of spells, but I feel like the number of spells known is too low.
Most WOTC books are approved by the DM (I think), however I only own a the PHB, so I can't look for myself, therefore I turn to you for help:

We're starting at 2nd level, there are some house rules regarding races, so assume it is a PHB human.
Given that, what spontaneous caster has the most spells known? Are there feats that will up the number of spells known?

Before the discussion goes there, I know the wizard and other prepared casters are more flexible with spells available. I am really interested in spontaneous.
Thanks for your help!

[gallagher]

I'm still fairly new to 3.5, and my group has a new campaign starting soon.
I am considering taking on the arcane caster role, but I find the daily spell selection to be tedious.
Therefore, I am looking for the spontaneous caster class with the most versatility. The sorcerer has a huge selection of spells, but I feel like the number of spells known is too low.
Most WOTC books are approved by the DM (I think), however I only own a the PHB, so I can't look for myself, therefore I turn to you for help:

We're starting at 2nd level, there are some house rules regarding races, so assume it is a PHB human.
Given that, what spontaneous caster has the most spells known? Are there feats that will up the number of spells known?

Before the discussion goes there, I know the wizard and other prepared casters are more flexible with spells available. I am really interested in spontaneous.
Thanks for your help!
well, there is not much more than that that we can do for you i think, unless you want to try psionics. the big thing about preparing your spells is that you dont have to memorize them, and therefore you have alot more room to wiggle.

psionics will let you get around this, because you are using your power points on a need-to-use-basis. wilders can be fun, psions are good, but i would suggest maybe a Spells for Powers Erudite, or whatever it is

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

At level 2, the Beguiler (Player's Handbook II) is likely your best bet with 14 first level spells known.

At later levels, a Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) with Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium) for extra spells known has a good amount of versatility and access to some better spells than the Beguiler.

[Vizzerdrix]

Rune Staffs, Knowstones, Feats, and Prestige Classes can all give you more spells known.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'm thinking what you probably want is Beguiler. They are a well thought out well designed class that has an extensive list of spells known. If you're willing to put in some effort illusions can be extraordinarily powerful and flexible, and they have almost all of the useful ones, and the ability to grab a few more spells know as they level up.

I also recommend you grab one level of Mindbender PrC (CArc) and the Mindsight feat (LoM pg. 126) because it's always awesome to be able to detect anyone regardless of stealth in a 100' radius, and to delay your Expanded spell selection a level so you get to use it on better spells.

[Allanimal]

Rune Staffs, Knowstones, Feats, and Prestige Classes can all give you more spells known.

Can you give some feat examples that a low-level character has access to? (and please which book...)

[Vizzerdrix]

Libris Mortis has Mother Cyst. This feat adds 11 spells, ranging from 1st level to 9th level, to your spells known list.

Races of the Dragon has draconic bloodlines. These feats each add a handful of useful spells.

One of the old editions of Dragon Magic has a feat that grants you 11 spells that are based off the Far Realm.

I think I've seen a trick or two using Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) and the Spell or magic domain to use the spell Anyspell.

I'm sure others will also list stuff too.

[Tonkarz]

I have to second knowstones. Each knowstone adds one specific spell to your spells known and takes 24 hours to attune to, but they cost the spell level squared times 1000gp. Which means even level one knowstones go for 1000gp, so they might be too expensive at lower character levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any spontaneous spellcasting class, such as Beguiler, Warmage, Sorcerer, or even Favored Soul, with a single level dip into Wizard, and the feat Versatile Spellcaster. You can Versatile Spellcaster to spontaneously cast any spell you know, including Wizard spells, even from divine spell slots. The number of Wizard spells you know is hypothetically only limited by the amount of time you spend reading them, assuming there is a library or archive of some kind which charges the standard fee (50 gp per spell level) to copy their spells. Since you're only reading them and making a spellcraft check to learn them, and not actually putting them into your book, you can bluff the keepers of the library into thinking you couldn't understand the spell, and they don't charge you for any of them. The highest level spell you can cast at a given level is the same as what a Wizard of equal level can cast, given Versatile Spellcaster. Beguiler is probably your best choice for this, but it works with any spontaneous spellcaster.

[Raging Gene Ray]

The number of Wizard spells you know is hypothetically only limited by the amount of time you spend reading them, assuming there is a library or archive of some kind which charges the standard fee (50 gp per spell level) to copy their spells.

???

I looked up Versatile Spellcaster, and that's NOT what it does. It lets you burn 2 spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. It doesn't expand your spells known.

Unless you're using a version besides Races of the Dragon...but Spontaneous Casters can't add to their spells known simply by studying scrolls. If they could, there would be no reason NOT to play them.

EDIT: I think I see what you're saying. You learn them AS A WIZARD even though you cannot cast them AS A WIZARD. You can, however, burn 2 spell slots of the level below them to cast them as a sorcerer, since they are still technically among your Spells Known...just not your SORCERER Spells Known.

That sounds good...if you can get away with it. It definitely is abusing the way the feat is worded and most DMs wouldn't allow it, I don't think.

[Tedesche]

The Extra Spell feat in Complete Arcane (p. 79) lets you add one spell of any level up to one less than the highest you can cast to your repertoire, but I'm not sure you want to be spending your hard-earned feats on that, when they could be used for more broadly applicable boons or metamagic.

The beguiler class (Player's Handbook II) is excellent, and will let you double as the party's rogue (minus sneak attacking), but has its limitations. Any enemies that are immune to mind-affecting spells and/or effects will be a problem (e.g. constructs, mindless undead, etc). That being said, illusions and enchantments are two of the most versatile spell schools in the game, and many of the spells the beguiler has access to can be insanely useful in the hands of a creative player. Furthermore, if you choose to take the shadow evocation/conjuration spells as your advanced learning picks (a class feature of the beguiler), you effectively give yourself access to every arcane conjuration/evocation spell in the game (albeit at the cost of an additional saving throw when you cast any of them).

Alternatively, there's the warmage class (Complete Arcane), which is sort of like the beguiler of evocation magic, but I think most people would agree the beguiler class is better overall. If you want to play a versatile blaster mage, the warmage might be worth considering, because it offers more offensive spell options than a straight sorcerer. However, if you're looking for true versatility—meaning spells for virtually every situation—then don't bother.

One option that strays slightly from the "arcane caster" motif, but would nonetheless offer a ton of versatility is the sorcerer/binder/anima mage class combo. Binders are a new base class from Tome of Magic that wield supernatural powers (i.e. NOT spells, and thus are not susceptible to magical dispelling) via pacts made with beings called vestiges (otherworldly spirits/entities). Pacts are typically made at the beginning of each day, last 24 hours, and grant the binder 4 or so abilities that can be used over and over again (although many of them only once every 5 rounds). High-level binders can make multiple pacts a day, and have access to every vestige of whatever level they've reached (similar to druids and clerics). A mage/binder can then go into the anima mage prestige class, which levels both binding and spellcasting abilities as well as some additional perks. A sorcerer with vestiges at his command can thus augment his spell repertoire substantially with a host of supernatural abilities that, while typically not as powerful as raw spells of equivalent level, give him "magic" to use that doesn't deplete his spell slots, and vastly broadens his available options. Certain spells (e.g. greater invisibility) need not be taken as a sorcerer when a pact with the right vestige will grant the same benefit.

Similarly, the sorcerer/warlock/eldritch theurge combo can grant several spell-like abilities that can mimic certain useful spells, and be used ad nauseum. In addition, the warlock's eldritch blast ability means you'll always have magical firepower at your fingertips (although EB pales in comparison to most mid- to high-level evocation spells). Still, if you're willing to rely on eldritch blast in combat, you can spend your sorcerer slots on spells that help in other types of situations. Bear in mind though that the eldritch theurge prestige class is really designed to combine the destructive powers of both base classes, and is thus mainly combat-oriented in the end.

Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) is a prestige class that can effectively give you access to any spell in the game if your DM permits it. You have to pay back any and all levels of spells you draw from the Order's spellpool with your own spell slots in subsequent days, but his is pittance for the unfettered additional versatility you gain. You'll definitely want to check with your DM before even thinking about taking this class though—I know plenty who disallow it, precisely because it puts every arcane splat book in the game at a mage's beck and call.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

???

I looked up Versatile Spellcaster, and that's NOT what it does. It lets you burn 2 spell slots to cast a spell 1 level higher. It doesn't expand your spells known.

Unless you're using a version besides Races of the Dragon...but Spontaneous Casters can't add to their spells known simply by studying scrolls. If they could, there would be no reason NOT to play them.

EDIT: I think I see what you're saying. You learn them AS A WIZARD even though you cannot cast them AS A WIZARD. You can, however, burn 2 spell slots of the level below them to cast them as a sorcerer, since they are still technically among your Spells Known...just not your SORCERER Spells Known.

That sounds good...if you can get away with it. It definitely is abusing the way the feat is worded and most DMs wouldn't allow it, I don't think.

Versatile Spellcaster is a staple of the Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus build, since it allows you to spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast a Wizard spell you didn't happen to prepare that day. Using a single level dip into Wizard for the sole purpose of expanding your spells known for use with Versatile Spellcaster is a bit abusive, but it sacrifices a level of spellcasting ability to do it. You could instead dip a level of Cloistered Cleric, since technically a Cleric automatically knows his entire class spell list plus domains, but that's even worse/better depending on what you're into.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Using a single level dip into Wizard for the sole purpose of expanding your spells known for use with Versatile Spellcaster is a bit abusive, but it sacrifices a level of spellcasting ability to do it.

That's still a small price to pay for what you get. It doesn't balance it at all.

It hinges on the assumption that if, say a 1st level Wizard has Wish in his spellbook, it's among his "Spells Known," even though he won't be able to cast it for another 16 levels. If I were a DM (I'm not), I would rule that unless you can cast a spell, you can't say you "know" it for purposes of casting it as other classes.

It also assumes that Versatile Spellcaster lets you use slots from your Spontaneous Casting Class to cast spells from your Prepared Casting Class. Nothing in the feat description says you can't, but the authors probably assumed it was a given.

Then again, as a player (and I am one of those), I would definitely try to get my DM to allow this.

[Gnaeus]

Most versatile Spontaneous Caster is Spirit Shaman, hands down. They can repick their spells known every day.

While it isn't Arcane, druids have a wide enough selection of spells on their list that a Spirit Shaman can fill the roles of an "arcane caster" (blasting, summoning, debuffing, buffing, battlefield control) very well. It doesn't really matter how you get your spells, only what they do.

[Aquillion]

Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) is a prestige class that can effectively give you access to any spell in the game if your DM permits it. You have to pay back any and all levels of spells you draw from the Order's spellpool with your own spell slots in subsequent days, but his is pittance for the unfettered additional versatility you gain. You'll definitely want to check with your DM before even thinking about taking this class though—I know plenty who disallow it, precisely because it puts every arcane splat book in the game at a mage's beck and call.No it doesn't. The class is actually very well designed; it doesn't specifically define the spellpool's contents, but says that it definitely contains every spell in the PHB. Anything outside of that requires DM approval.

(Of course, the core book has some of the best spells in the game, and covers most bases. But the point is, the author of MotAO was aware of the 'every new splatbook makes you stronger' problem that Druids and divine casters and such have, and worded MotAO to avoid it.)

[Mongoose87]

The Rainbow Warsnake is my favorite. Getting all of the cleric spells on your warmage list? Yes, please!

[Greenish]

The Rainbow Warsnake is my favorite. Getting all of the cleric spells on your warmage list? Yes, please!That comes to play rather late for many campaigns.

I'll second the spirit shaman for a versatile spontaneous caster, but it's probably not what OP wanted given that he finds picking the daily spells tedious (it is). Spirit Shaman picks spells known, which is a mercy.

[Jack_Simth]

Versatile Spellcaster is a staple of the Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus build, since it allows you to spend Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast a Wizard spell you didn't happen to prepare that day. Using a single level dip into Wizard for the sole purpose of expanding your spells known for use with Versatile Spellcaster is a bit abusive, but it sacrifices a level of spellcasting ability to do it. You could instead dip a level of Cloistered Cleric, since technically a Cleric automatically knows his entire class spell list plus domains, but that's even worse/better depending on what you're into.
Hmm... if it works for a Wizard dip, does it work for the Magical Training feat in the Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting, spending a feat, rather than a level?

[molten_dragon]

I know you said that there are some houserules about races, but if you can play a gnome you should think about a beguiler/shadowcraft mage. Shadowcraft mage is a cool prestige class that lets you make your illusions into real spells from the evocation and conjuration schools. It gives great versatility and is definitely worth a look if you're considering a beguiler. You can fund it in races of stone.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm still fairly new to 3.5, and my group has a new campaign starting soon.
I am considering taking on the arcane caster role, but I find the daily spell selection to be tedious.

Based on this, Beguiler, hands down. Worry about prestige classes later.

As an added bonus, the beguiler has a large amount of skill points. As a new player, just ignore the class abilities that give minor bonuses to your spells for now, and focus on the spells themselves and the skill points.

[Greenish]

Hmm... if it works for a Wizard dip, does it work for the Magical Training feat in the Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting, spending a feat, rather than a level?No, Magical Training only gives you a handful of cantrips.

[Jack_Simth]

No, Magical Training only gives you a handful of cantrips.... and a spellbook (if you take the int-based version), which was the only real reason for taking Wizard in the first place.

[Greenish]

... and a spellbook (if you take the int-based version), which was the only real reason for taking Wizard in the first place.No, it wasn't. You take wizard to get spells known. With Magical Training, you can't add spells to your spellbook. You can't even make a spellcraft check to "learn" them.

[Mongoose87]

That comes to play rather late for many campaigns.

I'll second the spirit shaman for a versatile spontaneous caster, but it's probably not what OP wanted given that he finds picking the daily spells tedious (it is). Spirit Shaman picks spells known, which is a mercy.

That's why you use Versatile Spellcaster to get in early, and enjoy the bonus domains, until you get to 10th level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, it wasn't. You take wizard to get spells known. With Magical Training, you can't add spells to your spellbook. You can't even make a spellcraft check to "learn" them.

Reading the feat, it says you have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice, and that you prepare spells as a wizard does. It doesn't say you can't add more spells to your book later on, but it doesn't say you can. A standard spellbook has 100 pages, and you would only be taking up three of them, so it would make sense that you could use the other 97 pages as well. Looking at the Wizard class, the 'Spells' class feature details how spellcasting works, that Intelligence is the governing ability score, spells/day, etc. The 'Spellbooks' class feature is where it details how a Wizard prepares his spells, and it also describes how additional spells are added to it. You could conclude that the last sentence of the Benefits section of Magical Training, "You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does," would refer to the 'Spellbooks' class feature which describes the functions of a spellbook, both in spell preparation and in adding new spells to it.

Magical Training doesn't explicitly say that you cannot add more spells to your spellbook, it just says you prepare spells from it just as a wizard does. A wizard can add additional spells to his book for later use, and it would make sense that you could do the same via this feat.

[Shadowleaf]

Reading the feat, it says you have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice, and that you prepare spells as a wizard does. It doesn't say you can't add more spells to your book later on, but it doesn't say you can. A standard spellbook has 100 pages, and you would only be taking up three of them, so it would make sense that you could use the other 97 pages as well. Looking at the Wizard class, the 'Spells' class feature details how spellcasting works, that Intelligence is the governing ability score, spells/day, etc. The 'Spellbooks' class feature is where it details how a Wizard prepares his spells, and it also describes how additional spells are added to it. You could conclude that the last sentence of the Benefits section of Magical Training, "You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does," would refer to the 'Spellbooks' class feature which describes the functions of a spellbook, both in spell preparation and in adding new spells to it.

Magical Training doesn't explicitly say that you cannot add more spells to your spellbook, it just says you prepare spells from it just as a wizard does. A wizard can add additional spells to his book for later use, and it would make sense that you could do the same via this feat.
That's the weirdest reading. Ever.
You can prepare "your spells" as a Wizard. As in, the 3 0-level spells. Not anything you add later.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's the weirdest reading. Ever.
You can prepare "your spells" as a Wizard. As in, the 3 0-level spells. Not anything you add later.

You prepare your spells just as a wizard does, from your spellbook, as per the spellbooks class feature, which also includes adding more spells which you would then be able to prepare. The whole "your spells" part is more like "your spells per day" since you don't have to prepare each of those three once, you could prepare the same spell three times, or prepare one twice and another once. The concept of "your spells" refers to spells cast by you, which is limited by your spells per day, and which must be pulled from among the spells you know. You prepare the spells you intend to cast just as a wizard does, and a wizard is capable of adding more spells to his book in order to expand the list of which spells he intends to cast. The feat gives you a 100-page spellbook containing three pages worth of spells, with no prohibition on filling the remaining pages.

[Thurbane]

I'm going to chime in with the Beguiler chorus. On top of spontaneous casting from a decent list, they cast off INT (a handier prime ability than CHA), and have 6 skill points/level (with a good selection of skills). Oh, and trap-finding.

[Rothen]

A standard spellbook has 100 pages, and you would only be taking up three of them, so it would make sense that you could use the other 97 pages as well.

A wizard can add additional spells to his book for later use, and it would make sense that you could do the same via this feat.

So you're going to read Magical Training with logic in mind, and then abuse the way Versatile Spellcaster is worded?

Sounds like something that you'll need some serious DM fiat for.

[Tedesche]

No it doesn't. The class is actually very well designed; it doesn't specifically define the spellpool's contents, but says that it definitely contains every spell in the PHB. Anything outside of that requires DM approval.

(Of course, the core book has some of the best spells in the game, and covers most bases. But the point is, the author of MotAO was aware of the 'every new splatbook makes you stronger' problem that Druids and divine casters and such have, and worded MotAO to avoid it.)

Thanks for the correction. I still think it's a bit overpowered, personally, but that certainly makes it less so.

[subject42]

If you're willing to go with a Divine caster, there's the Spirit shaman. It casts spontaneously, but can pick a new spell list every day.

[Telonius]

There are a number of PrCs that add to spells known. Exalted Arcanist, in particular (Book of Exalted Deeds), adds all of the Sanctified Spells as spells known at level 5.

[Optimystik]

I think Rainbow Warsnake does win, though Spell-to-Power Erudite comes very close.

[Allanimal]

Wow, lots of great responses here.


I have to second knowstones. Each knowstone adds one specific spell to your spells known and takes 24 hours to attune to, but they cost the spell level squared times 1000gp. Which means even level one knowstones go for 1000gp, so they might be too expensive at lower character levels.

Probably too spendy at first, but those are cool items.


Any spontaneous spellcasting class, such as Beguiler, Warmage, Sorcerer, or even Favored Soul, with a single level dip into Wizard, and the feat Versatile Spellcaster. You can Versatile Spellcaster to spontaneously cast any spell you know, including Wizard spells, even from divine spell slots.

That's really, really cool. But as the other posters have noted, it will have to be approved by my DM.


The Extra Spell feat in Complete Arcane (p. 79) ...

The beguiler class (Player's Handbook II) is excellent, and will let you double as the party's rogue (minus sneak attacking), but has its limitations.
...


Thanks for the great ideas, Tedesche, and thanks for taking the time to write all that. Great stuff that I am going to have to absorb.


I know you said that there are some houserules about races, but if you can play a gnome you should think about a beguiler/shadowcraft mage. Shadowcraft mage is a cool prestige class that lets you make your illusions into real spells from the evocation and conjuration schools. It gives great versatility and is definitely worth a look if you're considering a beguiler. You can fund it in races of stone.

That does sound cool, and it most likely will work with the house rules. BTW, the house rules about race is that they are basically just roleplaying fluff - almost all mechanical bonuses and penalties are removed (dwarves don't get +2 CON, -2 CHA). And everyone gets 2 feats. I think a racial requirement for a PrC will mean I can do it, if I say I'm a gnome and roleplay like one.


If you're willing to go with a Divine caster, there's the Spirit shaman. It casts spontaneously, but can pick a new spell list every day.

While it isn't Arcane, druids have a wide enough selection of spells on their list that a Spirit Shaman can fill the roles of an "arcane caster" (blasting, summoning, debuffing, buffing, battlefield control) very well. It doesn't really matter how you get your spells, only what they do.
Interesting. What book is Spirit Shaman in?

Thanks again everyone for the great ideas.
Beguiler sounds cool, but I may consider the Spirit Shaman too.