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Ossian
2010-06-23, 03:22 AM
Dear friends, I have a bit of a challenge ahead, and very little time to overcome it.

Basically one of my player is migrating his "Monk, 2nd edition" (Master Set, or Black Boxed set) to 3.5

None of us is a huge optimization fan, but the Monk as is in 3.5 has limited capabilities to reflect the kind of monk he was in the 2nd edition. He was a level 14 (out of 36) monk and had an unarmed damage of 2d8, evasion, AC "-2" (that is, AC 22), 14d6 HP, heal self for 14 HP a day, snatch arrows, fast movement but, most importantly, had used his "Weapon Mastery" slots at levels 3,6,9 and 13 to become "grand master" with the bastard sword, which translated in a massive output damage and high to hit bonus (we waived the "no weapons" rule for the monks if he was fighting his "chosen enemy", which were outsiders)

Now, his monk was an adventurous type, but he definitely had inclinations towards a more contemplative side of things. The closest thing that come to mind i master Li Mu Bai from Hidden Dragon-Crouching Tiger.

http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/li-mu-bai.jpg

Now, with just as many levels to use (well, let's make it 15) how would you help this guy get the character of his dreams?

Parameters:

15 levels
Good (but not stellar) unarmed combat
Has a favored enemy of some kind
Really Badass with the bastard sword, almost wu-xia (no need to jump 20 meters though). Use of "ki" is ok
Evasion, Improved Grapple and Snatch Arrows highly desired

STR 14 CON 13 DEX 17 WIS 15 (+2 periapt = 17) INT 12 CHA 13

Allowed: basically ALL books save for Tome of Battle. I already had trouble forcing them to move to 3.5, maneuvers and stances are not going to go down well.

Thanks a lot!!!

Ossian

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 03:32 AM
Lack of ToB isn't going to make this easy. How does he feel about a classicalist gish build? That'd probably come pretty close. Barring that, I think you might like the Tashalatoran build, which uses the feat named Tashalatora from Secrets of Sarlona to stack many of the desirable aspects of monk with a psionic class of choice. I recommend ardent, because it has a distinctly 2e feel to it, as well as being quite powerful.

Simply put, I don't think I'd recommend a pure melee character for your purposes.

Ossian
2010-06-23, 04:54 AM
Thanks for the tip!

Ah, Psionic and Monk stacking would be SO sweet. Unfortunately, we're talking some hard core old style D&D here, hard to push for novelties.

My mind went on a rather melee heavy class medley to provide a foundation, to then drift into the more flashy Prestige Classes.

I thought: monk (to start) + ranger (1 level, planar ranger) + X + Y where X and Y could be from one of the Complete (Warrior, but also Divine) or from oriental Adventures (some kind of weapon master). Spells are really not his thing, so no classes with spells. Kensai (CW) seemed OK, but I don#t know if I am going in the right direction (especially for the über sword mastery aspect).

O.

endoperez
2010-06-23, 06:06 AM
Something like this might be useful, either as an item or as an inspiration for a custom feat or power or something.

Sword of the Planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofthePlanes)

This longsword has an enhancement bonus of +1 on the Material Plane, but on any Elemental Plane its enhancement bonus increases to +2. (The +2 enhancement bonus also applies on the Material Plane when the weapon is used against elementals.) It operates as a +3 longsword on the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane or when used against opponents native to either of those planes. On any other plane, or against any outsider, it functions as a +4 longsword.

playswithfire
2010-06-23, 06:18 AM
Two Questions:
Does he want to wield the bastard sword in one hand or both hands?
Are you planning to create a feat like Whirling Steel Strike/Serpent Strike/Double Steel Strike to let him flurry with the bastard sword?

Chiming in with another Tashalatora option, particularly if he can flurry with the sword is Kalashtar* Monk 4/Ranger 1/War Mind 10. Flurry + Sweeping Strike = fun

If he takes EWP(bastard sword), might want to dip a level in Exotic Weapon Master so he can use Stunning Fist through his sword.

*for racial substitution levels that give knowledge(psionics) as a class skill; alternatively, needs the Education feat

hamlet
2010-06-23, 07:15 AM
Only wish to add that you're talking about D&D BECMI edition, NOT 2nd edition. That error was giving me a twitch. Seriously.

paddyfool
2010-06-23, 07:30 AM
Alternatively, you could go for one of the many homebrew monk fixes. This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) seems particularly appropriate for what you want to do.

Tengu_temp
2010-06-23, 07:38 AM
There is a feat that lets you treat a longsword as a monk weapon. Let's see if I can find it.

EDIT: Here it is (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Whirling_Steel_Strike). Seeing that there are similar feats for two-bladed swords (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Steel_Strike) and longspears (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Serpent_Strike), homebrewing a feat that works that way for a bastard sword seems very easy. And if your DM disagrees, just use a longsword instead.

kamikasei
2010-06-23, 07:41 AM
Are you the DM?

I'd be inclined to just say "let him play a monk with full BAB, Favoured Enemy, and the bastard sword added to the list of monk weapons". Perhaps give him a feat that lets him add Wis to attack and damage with the sword, or something like that. Seems the simplest way to give him most of the abilities you list.

Just how badass with the sword does he have to be? Who are the other damage-dealers, what are their abilities, and should he be on par with them, ahead, or behind?

Coidzor
2010-06-23, 07:42 AM
It's from Eberron IIRC. And has Lightning in the name.

Edit: Correction, one of them is from Eberron and it requires proficiency (no real surprise there) and the weapon focus [longsword] feat :smallyuk: in addition to the flurry of blows class feature.

...As if anyone would take it who didn't have the flurry of blows class feature anyway, since all it does is allow one to flurry with a longsword.

Whirling Steel Strike
Source: Eberron Campaign Setting

Amphetryon
2010-06-23, 07:53 AM
Random aside: the original conversion recommendations in switching from 2nd to 3.X indicate you'll want to make him lower level to keep the approximate same power level. IIRC, he loses about 3 levels in the conversion. I'd ballpark it to 12th for convenience of Feats.

Eberron Campaign Setting has several Feats allowing specific weapons to be treated as Monk weapons for Flurry of Blows and such, so it should be simple enough to copy their crunch into a Bastard Sword version.

EDIT: ninja'd monk'd?

IdleMuse
2010-06-23, 08:02 AM
To be honest, you really get what you want with Monk 2/Ranger 1. Take the feats Snatch Arrows and Improved Natural Attack to up you unarmed capabilities, as well as cashing out for a Monk's Belt. Meditation of War Mastery (OA) will work well thematically if you can fit it, Exotic Weapon Master levels will give you Stunning Fist with your sword, and maybe Trip and Super-Power-Attack as well, if you so wish.

Sword-wise, you can go for a +X Bastard Sword (EWP if you want to wield it one-handed), applying the Ki Focus ability if you want to be able to use monk abilities with it, or you can refluff a Scorpion Kama (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a) which lets you use your unarmed damage.

Prestige Class wise, Tattooed monk has a lot of interesting abilities, a dip into Sanctified One should be easy to qualify for (with DM approval) for a special ability, as is Shintao Monk from OA. A 2-level dip into fighter never hurt a martial class either, and the Ferocity Barbarian variant might also be appropriate.

Coidzor
2010-06-23, 08:14 AM
EDIT: ninja'd monk'd?

We all sort swordsaged into it, I guess. 3 layers I counted when I read through the thread. x.x


The lack of ToB for a character that's already been stated to be Wuxia is kinda disheartening, I must admit.

As it stands, either grandfather him into proficiency with the bastard sword or put one of his leveling feats into the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it.

Evasion is Monk 2, so no worries there. May want to pick up Improved Grapple via a leveling feat instead of by a monk class feature, as Stunning Fist can get some nifty things (such as a blinding attack granted by the Feat: Falling Star Strike[Oriental Adventures], if I recall the name correctly)... Snatch Arrows is another feat or two if Deflect Arrows isn't taken as a monk class feature/bonus feat.

There's a feat that allows one to get a single favored enemy type with only the most basic of bonuses to it, IIRC. So, depending upon what you wanna do with favored enemy, that could be enough. Though a ranger dip would give proficiency in bastard swords as martial two-handed weapons allowing for two handed powerattacking as well as flurries, as well as the ability to trade track in for trapfinding IIRC, or just keep the ability to track.


Snap Kick is another feat to consider taking for adding another unarmed strike to a routine.

Lapak
2010-06-23, 09:11 AM
Allowed: basically ALL books save for Tome of Battle. I already had trouble forcing them to move to 3.5, maneuvers and stances are not going to go down well.
Thanks for the tip!

Ah, Psionic and Monk stacking would be SO sweet. Unfortunately, we're talking some hard core old style D&D here, hard to push for novelties. I'm... not entirely sure that moving this group to 3.5 is going to make anyone happy. To simulate what you're describing in 3.5 and be effective is going to need a build that's already going to be complex to the point of annoying your players. To wit:


My mind went on a rather melee heavy class medley to provide a foundation, to then drift into the more flashy Prestige Classes.

I thought: monk (to start) + ranger (1 level, planar ranger) + X + Y where X and Y could be from one of the Complete (Warrior, but also Divine) or from oriental Adventures (some kind of weapon master). Spells are really not his thing, so no classes with spells. Kensai (CW) seemed OK, but I don#t know if I am going in the right direction (especially for the über sword mastery aspect).

O.If you think a multi-base-class, multi-prestige-class build is going to be any more palatable to someone who likes an old-school feel than a simple monk/psionic combination, I'm afraid you're in for a disappointment. If they don't like that style of play, I'm not sure that they're going enjoy the game any more than they did the old system, and possibly less.

kamikasei
2010-06-23, 09:22 AM
If you think a multi-base-class, multi-prestige-class build is going to be any more palatable to someone who likes an old-school feel than a simple monk/psionic combination, I'm afraid you're in for a disappointment.

It might be that they're fine with build complexity, especially if the DM is the one handling it for them, but don't want too complex a set of in-play abilities such as maneuvers or powers may seem.

Lapak
2010-06-23, 09:30 AM
It might be that they're fine with build complexity, especially if the DM is the one handling it for them, but don't want too complex a set of in-play abilities such as maneuvers or powers may seem.
Hmm. Possible. I'd still field the Tash-monk first, as psionics are one of the only subsystems in 3.5 that have a pre-3rd-edition history. (Not quite back to basic, but still.) Ego Whip never goes out of style, apparently.

Person_Man
2010-06-23, 09:32 AM
Are you the DM?

I'd be inclined to just say "let him play a monk with full BAB, Favoured Enemy, and the bastard sword added to the list of monk weapons".

Agreed. I would also throw in free Exotic Weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword), make it so that he can use Stunning Fist with a bastard sword, and let him add his unarmed damage to his bastard sword damage.

You might also want to re-think your no Tome of Battle thing. Manuevers and stances are actually quite easy to learn, and ToB, Psionics, PHBII, Magic of Incarnum, and the Binder are the core of what makes 3.5 awesome and interesting for a lot of players. If you give them "easy" stuff to play with, they might just find it boring. If someone was eating ice cream for the first time, would you give them vanilla, or would you give them a chocolate fudge banana split sunday?

kamikasei
2010-06-23, 09:39 AM
Agreed. I would also throw in free Exotic Weapon proficiency (Bastard Sword),

Naturally.


make it so that he can use Stunning Fist with a bastard sword,

Couldn't remember what being a special monk weapon covered but this sounds reasonable.


and let him add his unarmed damage to his bastard sword damage.

Might be overkill but depending what expectations the DM has for damage output it could be appropriate. Spending a Stunning Fist use to power it could balance it if it's too high for continual use.

Master_Rahl22
2010-06-23, 11:03 AM
Yeah, what you really want is a Swordsage with Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw maneuvers. He can throw guys into other guys, dealing damage to both of them, he can use the power of his mind to deal extra damage or boost his saves, and with a bit of optimizing (Leap of the Heavens feat, custom item to boost Jump) can leap around the battlefield, flipping over enemies and dealing extra damage or even stunning them. You give him a Monk's unarmed damage progression in exchange for armor proficiency, and then he can fight unarmed or with his sword and do all his super cool tricks.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:10 AM
I could speak with him or her, if you like. That might be the most effective approach.

Ossian
2010-06-24, 03:16 AM
HI! Wow, overwhelming feedback, thanks so much guys :smallsmile:.
I was swamped a-la-helm'sdeep yesterday, and I could not get close to the reply button. Not much time today either, but I will go through your points as much as possible.

@All. I am the DM. (sounds ominous, come to think of it....)

@ENDOPEREZ:
The character in fact has a planar sword. It was designed a little differently, but I might just merge the two designs. It's a sa-shull (cookies for who remembers where this obscure items appears, in the shape of a +2 dagger with banana shaped blade) and has a +1 enchantment, +4 Vs outsiders as long as they are "invading", i.e. if they are on the Prime Material (it's a sword meant to guard the PM from interference). It's a "bastard sword" as much as a katana can be (I personally hate the categorization). Also a "bane" weapon of said creatures (again, IF they are on the PM) identifies them within 54 feet with a colder and brighter blade, it is also "cold burst" when it crits them.

@playswithfire +DocRoc

I do not own Secrets of Sarlona, and I am hesitant about psions. He is seeing the "chi" or "ki" thing from a different angle. I will, however, suggest him the "Devoted Hunter" feat, to stack Ranger and Monk if he accepts the ranger thing. Ranger seems more and more plausible for a 1 lvl dip because of the time he did spend hunting extraplanars and because he does have, after all, wilderness survival abilities.


@Hamlet: LOL! Sorry, my bad. It's just a bad translation. In Italian the Red-Blue-Green-Black-Immortal boxes refer to "D&D Second Edition".


@tengu temp: we did houserule a long time ago that his training would forbid him to even unsheath the sword (legacy from RBGBI edition) or use any other weapon than his body. The "monk weapons" of his style, created in a non-oriental kind of setting, are the bastard sword (but lighter and more katanesque than the European one) the composite bow, the staff and the spear, the dagger. He can flurry with all (not the bow). Nunchucks, sai and all the other Japan-China-Korea-Thai weapons are out. Speaking of monks it probably does not break the game in the slightest :smallsmile:.

@Kamikasei:
I'd be inclined to just say "let him play a monk with full BAB, Favoured Enemy, and the bastard sword added to the list of monk weapons". Perhaps give him a feat that lets him add Wis to attack and damage with the sword, or something like that. Seems the simplest way to give him most of the abilities you list. Just how badass with the sword does he have to be? Who are the other damage-dealers, what are their abilities, and should he be on par with them, ahead, or behind?

Well, in the old edition he did not have a "thac0" progression as fast as fighters or dwarves. He was in the rogues/clerics range, so I guess average BaB is ok. The damage dealer would be an Elven Duskblade with a nasty bastard sword (level 13, approx) and and a Rogue/Fighter (levels 12/2, approx) also with bastard sword. The monk, using the "Black Box" weapon mastery, had an additional +8 to hit (which we houseruled to +4, because otherwise it was ridiculous) and a base damage output of 1d10+10. Mastery of the bastard sword (one and two handed) were merged in one "mastery" alone. There do not seem too many options that increase base damage this much, so I was wondering if a WIS bonus to Damage feat would be ok. Perhaps I will just create it if it does not exist.

@idlemuse: where is the "ki Focus" ability? I have Oriental Adventures but I do not recall seeing it. I would like to use it, seems to fit just well.

@lapak+kamikasei: bingo. Basically, as long as I do the math and the number crunching, they are ok. The enjoy the idea of "more options" but do not want to have a ton to remember or to use either.

Ah! Ran out of time! More reflections later....

Doc Roc
2010-06-24, 03:50 AM
Psions in 3.x are probably the most balanced casting mechanic in the game by a fairly wide margin, a far-cry from earlier editions.

Coidzor
2010-06-24, 05:06 AM
Hmm... Cold burst might need to be tweaked if it's only for outsiders...

As they all seem to be either Resist 10 or Immune....@_@

Albonor
2010-06-24, 05:45 AM
Kof kof...

Generic Warrior from d20srd? Full BAB, the option to select and improve the bonus against a favored ennemy, possibility of taking evasion and uncanny dodge, lots of feats to go for snatch arrow.

One small thing to ask for and one big:

small: that you count as a fighter for the purposes of taking fighter-only feats. Then go crazy with PHB and PHBII to be a master of the bastard sword.

big: take the feat in ToB to improve your unarmed damage. Come on it's only ONE feat! (but it might be refused so go with improved NA and the spec route if you feel like it...)


Optimal? Not by a mile.

What you want and will keep your 3.5 reluctant friends happy? You bet.

Ossian
2010-06-24, 06:02 AM
RIGHT! Forgot superior unarmed strike. Also, Feats from ToB are ok. They are feats after all.

Any idea of what I should be looking for in PHB and PHB II for mastery of a weapon (damage wise)?

I suppose that power attack and favored power attack would be good, but I cannot recall the prerequisites.

Any tips?

O.

Albonor
2010-06-24, 06:21 AM
You want the classic weapon focus, weapon spec, greater weapon focus, improved crit, greater weapon spec, melee weapon mastery, slashing furry, weapon mastery.

Again, far far faaaar from optimal but it will make a big diff between a "normal" fighter and a master of the sword...

but a barb in a greater rage with power attack will have a similar to hit and better damage. Life huh?

Ossian
2010-06-24, 06:37 AM
I suppose most of the feats you mention are in PHBII (melee weapon mastery, slashing furry, weapon mastery). I will look into that.

There are plenty of feats, like weapon focus, weapon specialization, etc... but they are all for core Fighters. Any ways of applying them to Monks? Honestly, working my way up Fighter 12 for another +2 to damage seems a bit frustrating :(

Also, Barbarians don't know kung-fu... (enter Neo and Morpheus)

O.

IdleMuse
2010-06-24, 07:17 AM
Ki Focus is in the DMG, p225

Albonor
2010-06-24, 08:21 AM
To a monk? Someone will come up with a feat to mix fighter and monk. I was simply suggesting straight warrior (generic class). Otherwise, I don't know.

Those feats, again, are far from the best build you can manage. If your guy is using his weapon in one hand, go with a PrC like Duelist or another class.

But, you know, have fun!

Ossian
2010-06-24, 08:33 AM
To a monk? Someone will come up with a feat to mix fighter and monk. I was simply suggesting straight warrior (generic class). Otherwise, I don't know.

Those feats, again, are far from the best build you can manage. If your guy is using his weapon in one hand, go with a PrC like Duelist or another class.

But, you know, have fun!

Hmmm...ok, I see what you mean. I overlooked the fighter / warrior only aspect of your post. I am still flirting with the idea of using Power Attack and Favored Enemy in some kind of cheesy synergy. After all, he IS only going to unsheathe the planar sword against them outsidah!

Tips in that regard? Some feat or perhaps class variants that increase the effectiveness of the fav enemy/ power attack combo?

O.