[3.5] Help With a Min/Maxed Melee Scout

[Interwebs]

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to make a sorta cheesed melee scout that does crazy things with skirmish. I'm trying to min/max somewhat -- enough that he'll actually be about the best one could make him.

My current build is:
Human Scout 4/Ranger 2/Highland Stalker 6/Tempest 5/Chameleon 3

My feats are:
Lv. 1 - Weapon Finesse, Dodge(Human)
Lv. 3 - Mobility
Lv. 4 - Track(Scout Bonus)
Lv. 5 - Urban Track(Ranger Bonus, in place of track or improved track)
Lv. 6 - Two-Weapon Fighting(Ranger), Spring Attack
Lv. 9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv. 12 - Elusive Target
Lv. 15 - Bounding Assault
Lv. 18 - Close-Quarters Fighting

As always, how could this build be improved, both in class levels and feats? I've heard about Dervish being good for a melee scout, how would I work that level-wise and is it worthwhile (better than I have now)?

Is a melee scout even viable compared to a ranged (manyshot, shot on the run, etc.) scout? Or is the ranged scout just better in every way?

I'd really appreciate any feedback you might have. Thanks!

[DrGonzo]

You'll need swift hunter, that improves favored enemies, and skirmish damage.

[Greenish]

Swift Hunter with dips to Cleric for Travel Devotion and Barbarian for Pounce. Mystic Ranger and/or Wildshape Ranger and Sword of the Arcane Order are to be considered too.

[Edit]: Let's see. You'll need Scout 3 and Ranger 1 to qualify for Swift Hunter, and then you want to take ranger levels to advance favoured enemies and skirmish damage. If Precision damage transparency is in effect, you'll want Craven.

What else? You need movement to activate skirmish. Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 gives you pounce, ie. full attack while charging. Charging is fun. Cleric can get you Travel Devotion for swift action movement, and another devotion for whatever you want. If you take cloistered cleric, you'll use a point of BAB with fractional BAB and three levels of scout.

So, in the end: Scout3/barb1/cleric1/ranger15
Let's be Silverbrow human. Bonus feat and dragonblood subtype, woot.
1: Able Learner, Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings, Improved Initiative
3: Craven (if skirmish qualifies for it)
5: cleric: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Domain
6: ranger 1 & Swift Hunter - swap for knowledge devotion*
7: ranger: Two-Weapon fighting
9: Imp. Dragon Wings
11: ranger: Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting
12: EWP: Eagle's Claw**
15: Prehensile Tail***
16: Ranger: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18: Improved Critical: Eagle's Claw†

*Domains may be swapped at any time. You had all knowledges as class skills for a level, therefore the cap is increased. Able Learner means you can invest into cross-class skills for 1:1 ratio.

**Eagle's Claw is a 1d6 18-20/x2 piercing/slashing light weapon from Sandstorm. Usually, you'd just use a kukri, but that's slashing damage. I quote from the Imp. Dragon Wings: "You can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but yoy must fly a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. You can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage." Yeah, you want piercing for double damage, light weapons for TWF and a good crit range for, well, good crit range. Bonus points for thematic choice.

***Prehensile Tail gives you an extra hand. Your TWF chain changes into Multi-Weapon Fighting chain.

†Save money from enchanting both of your weapons. If you want to spend the money, pick Skill Focus: Basketweaving instead.

You can take your levels pretty much willy-nilly, this was just made for level 20.

So, you Dive at the enemy, deliver full attack via pounce, use Swift Action to fly away with Travel Devotion. Rinse and repeat.

Your attack sequence with full attack is +17/+12/+7/+2 with main hand, and +17/+12/+7 with your other hand and tail (both off hands, 1/2 Str bonus). Damage is doubled thanks to Dive. All attacks get skirmish, even against normally immune enemies if they're your favoured enemies, though the skirmish damage is not doubled. Not bad eh?

Your stats to begin with: STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 8
You don't need Dex for multiweapon fighting chain, since ranger combat styles bypass the requirements. All levelling bonuses go to strength.

[Eldariel]

If you want a min-maxed Scout, try this:

Scout 5/Mystic Ranger 9 [Dragon Magazine 336]/Cloistered Cleric 1 [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)]/Stalker of Kharesh 2 /Dragon Devotee 2 [Races of the Dragon]/Unseen Seer 1 [Complete Mage]

Feats:
Swift Hunter [Complete Scoundrel]
Sword of the Arcane Order [Champions of Valor]
Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]
Alertness (use Scout Bonus Feat on e.g. this or Improved Skirmish)
Favored of Companions [Book of Exalted Deeds]
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Skirmish [Complete Scoundrel]
Travel Devotion [Complete Champion, use Cleric Domain Switch]
Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion, use Cleric Domain Switch]
(Able Learner [Races of Destiny] if Human and wanting to pursue both, trapfinding and tracking [See if DM would accept for non-Human; if so, add to below list])
One free feat; Nemesis: Evil [BoED], Practiced Spellcaster: Mystic Ranger [CArc], Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade [ToB] or similars are all solid choices.



Total outcome:

[B]Level 12 Mystic Ranger + Arcane casting: 9 Ranger + 2 Stalker of Kharesh + 1 Unseen Seer; with Sword of the Arcane Order, you should be able to advance it - Level 5 Ranger & Arcane Spells. Caster level pumpable via. Beads of Karma, Ankh of Ascension and company.
Level 1 Cleric casting: Mostly enables various Wands (Wand of Lesser Vigor, most importantly)
Fractionally 17 BAB: 5 Scout, 2 Dragon Devotee, 1 Unseen Seer = +6 (Medium BAB), 1 Cloisted Cleric = +0.5 (Low BAB), 11 Stalker of Kharesh + Ranger (Good BAB) = +11 for a total of +17. Knowledge Devotion means +1 To Hit and Damage against everything (with 1 rank in Dungeoneering, Arcane, Nature, Local, The Planes & Religion), better with good roll so effectively +18.
+6d6/+3 Skirmish: +4d6/+3 from Ranger/Scout 14, +1 from Dragon Devotee and +1 from Unseen Seer. +8d6/+5 with Improved Skirmish.
Move as Swift Action: Travel Devotion (take Undeath-domain as your last domain; this gives you Extra Turning meaning with 8 Charisma, you can get 4 uses daily; lasts for 1 minute each), DC 40 Tumble-checks (10' steps) & Swift spells like Teleport, Slide and company. Means full attacks on command.
4 Favored Enemies: 3 from Mystic Ranger/Scout 14, Evil from Stalker of Kharesh. Can cover Plant/Construct/Elemental (or Ooze) and Evil covers Undead, most Fortifications-using Humanoids you'll fight and so on.
Good Skills: Well, rather obvious; Track, Trapfinding and good skill lists.
Other Minor Benefits: You'll get +1 Natural Armor, Scent, Battle Fortitude, Evasion, Spell Reflection (trade either Evasion you receive), Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Wild Empathy, Swift Tracker, Lore, Aura of Good


Alternatively, you can give up +1d6 Skirmish for Hide in Plain Sight by switching out Dragon Devotee for 2 more levels of Stalker of Kharesh. You'd also end up with 18 BAB that way. Also, if desired, you can trade Spell Reflection and a level 4 spell slot for Flawless Stride by taking level 6 of Scout instead.

Remember to use your spellcasting to boost your combat; stuff like Wraithstrike [Spell Compendium], Polymorph, Heroics [Spell Compendium], Rhino's Charge + Lion's Charge [Spell Compendium], Blades of Fire [Spell Compendium], Sonic Weapon [Spell Compendium], Alter Self, Foebane [Spell Compendium], etc. are all incredible.


Race choice is free though I suggest Dexterity, Int and Wis bonuses, and/or a bonus feat (Flaws would help a lot). Speed is, of course, of the essence. You can dump Str and Cha, and you don't need that much Con. You can derive your melee attacks off Dex by picking Feycraft Light Weapons [DMGII] without investing a feat in Weapon Finesse. As a Ranger/Scout with Favored of Companions, being in contact with the good Fey should be quite natural and go smoothly anyways.

You can also consider a level of Swordsage (again, taking off e.g. Dragon Devotee) to pick up the prerequisite Shadow Hand stance in order to qualify for Shadow Blade, which would increase your damage notably. Strongheart Halfling [PGtF], Human, Gray Elf, Fire Elf [SRD] and Whisper Gnome [Races of Stone] are probably the front runners with regards to your race.

[Doc Roc]

I have little to add that Eldariel didn't cover, except to mention the delicious possibility of either the Crinti Shadow Marauder, or the excellent Teflammar Shadow lord. Nothing says shadowy death like multiple full attacks combined with teleportation.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want a min-maxed Scout, try this:

Scout 5/Mystic Ranger 9 [Dragon Magazine 336]/Cloistered Cleric 1 [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)]/Stalker of Kharesh 2 [Book of Exalted Deeds]/Dragon Devotee 2 [Races of the Dragon]/Unseen Seer 1 [Complete Mage]
Just a note: you're going to pay a multiclassing XP penalty with base classes at levels 5, 9, and 1.

[Greenish]

Sword of the Arcane Order [Champions of Valor]
Bah, I mentioned it in my post, yet forgot to apply it to the build. :smallsigh:

Well, a quick juggle can fit it in.

[Eldariel]

Just a note: you're going to pay a multiclassing XP penalty with base classes at levels 5, 9, and 1.

Bleh; I suggest you ignore those rules. They suck, add nothing to the game and have no place in a game where non-casters intend to be remotely equal to casters. Though if the DM is a prick and follows them, pick Sacred Exorcist-level and Travel Devotion via. a feat; that way you'll still have a relevant number of Travel Devotion-uses without multiclass penalties (using a race with FC: Any or Ranger).

[Curmudgeon]

Bleh; I suggest you ignore those rules. They suck, add nothing to the game and have no place in a game where non-casters intend to be remotely equal to casters. Though if the DM is a prick and follows them
I don't think following the rules is any cause for name-calling.

The house rule I most commonly use here is that the multiclassing XP rule only comes into effect if you have any primary spellcasting classes -- including retroactively. That includes Cloistered Cleric.

[Chen]

Where does a DC 40 tumble check = 10' step come from? I'm not familiar with that.

[Greenish]

Where does a DC 40 tumble check = 10' step come from? I'm not familiar with that.I've seen it cited as Oriental Adventures.

[Person_Man]

Where does a DC 40 tumble check = 10' step come from? I'm not familiar with that.

Oriental Adventures.

Here's the full compilation of Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

I would also add that while I love the Scout (despite it's inherent weakness), if you're thinking about playing a build that is 4/5 not Scout, you might as well drop it all together. The bonus damage from Skirmish is pretty negligible (especially when you're spending a Feat to get most of it), and there are plenty of ways to get Skills, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion.

What exactly do you want to do, anyway? If you're just looking for mobile Skills + Kills, you might want to look at the Totemist, Psychic Rogue, Wildshape Ranger, etc.

[Eldariel]

I don't think following the rules is any cause for name-calling.

Pardons if I offended anyone. I just think it's plain wrong for a DM to follow rules to the letter even to the detriment of the game experience.


any[/U] primary spellcasting classes -- including retroactively. That includes Cloistered Cleric.

But...Tier 1 casters weaken themselves by multiclassing into other classes; shouldn't that be encouraged? I mean, the issue with multiclass penalties was always that they hurt already weaker builds while not touching the stronger ones (and empower Human even more; any Human caster can still dip whatever if he so likes without penalties).

[Harperfan7]

Tempests' 5th level ability is great for scouts if mixed with bounding assault and rapid blitz, but it doesn't really compare to a dervish's dance and thousand cuts ability.

Thing is, dervish is a 10th level class and you'll need to get your skirmish damage high from something else.

Swiftblade is a good scout class mix, it even has its own skirmish damage ability and the class's 9th level ability is great for a scout.

I'd also suggest a 1 or 2 level dip into swordsage for wis to ac and a few key maneuvers/stances. There is the stance that lets you have scent, a manuever where you can move and attack in the same action as long as you jump (i think) though you can tumble at the same time, sapphire nightmare blade (always good), and you can take martial stance to get the assassins whatever that gives you sneak attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Where does a DC 40 tumble check = 10' step come from? I'm not familiar with that.
It's in Oriental Adventures, as has been noted already. But it's never a 10' step; it always remains a 10' Tumble. That means encumbrance, ACP, and all the usual limitations apply.