PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Beating Regeneration



AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 09:05 AM
Assuming the DM (Me :smallbiggrin:) would to make a creature that Regenerates unless hit by Fire/Acid, then said creature is naturally immune to both Acid and Fire, how exactly would you beat it?

As gory as it sounds, if you tore the body apart while it was unconscious and stored them separate from each other, would the creature be able to regenerate new limbs without having access to the original ones, or would it basically be in a torpor until all the bits were put back together again?

Needless to say I want a monster in my game that is a hideous experiment gone wrong and is now going all Godzilla-like on the city, and somehow the players have got to deal with it rather than just hitting it until it's HP are gone.

PersonMan
2010-06-23, 09:09 AM
Just beat it until it falls unconscious, and have some people spend shifts hitting it with coup de grace attacks to keep it like that, eventually you can have someone spam SODs on it until it fails a save.

Gerrtt
2010-06-23, 09:09 AM
Trolls can regrow lost limbs in 3d6 minutes, as per the SRD. But you're the DM.

If the plot says that keeping the limbs and parts separated will do the trick then go for it.

It makes for a great plot too. A sleeper cult that secretly worships this thing might make efforts to put the pieces back together to undo reality and enter the world into a new era of life (or rather, unlife)! Dun dun dun!

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-23, 09:11 AM
Assuming the DM (Me :smallbiggrin:) would to make a creature that Regenerates unless hit by Fire/Acid, then said creature is naturally immune to both Acid and Fire, how exactly would you beat it?

You hire a psionic character to kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm) for you.

Furnok
2010-06-23, 09:12 AM
One idea could be to Plane Shift said creature to the negative energy plane. Something else off the top of my head is Hellfire, since even fire sub-type creatures take damage from Hellfire. The last idea I got is disintegrate its pretty hard to avoid disintegration.

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 09:13 AM
Trolls can regrow lost limbs in 3d6 minutes, as per the SRD. But you're the DM.

If the plot says that keeping the limbs and parts separated will do the trick then go for it.

It makes for a great plot too. A sleeper cult that secretly worships this thing might make efforts to put the pieces back together to undo reality and enter the world into a new era of life (or rather, unlife)! Dun dun dun!

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with a sleeper cult, just that what they're worshipping happens to be a smaller-scale Cthulhu, and instead of the being actually existing they're attempting to actually create one.

As for repeating SoD's and higher level spells, they're in Eberron, so there are only a handful of people of high enough level to be able to do such spells, and even then the majority of them wouldn't be interested in helping. The PCs are currently level 9 and bordering on some of the most powerful people with class levels that are of the 'good' persuasion.

pingcode20
2010-06-23, 09:16 AM
There's also a Metamagic feat in It's Hot Outside (Sandstorm) called Searing Spell. That gives you superfire that hits for at least half damage even on things that are supposed to be immune.

You can burn anything that way, including Fire Elementals!

Aracor
2010-06-23, 09:16 AM
That's easy. Gate it or plane shift it somewhere else, that makes it someone else's problem. Drown it. Imprison spell. Knock it out and then teleport it somewhere else. Give it enough negative levels to kill it regardless of hit points.

There are a myriad of ways to deal with something that can't take 'mere' damage.

PersonMan
2010-06-23, 09:17 AM
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with a sleeper cult, just that what they're worshipping happens to be a smaller-scale Cthulhu, and instead of the being actually existing they're attempting to actually create one.

As for repeating SoD's and higher level spells, they're in Eberron, so there are only a handful of people of high enough level to be able to do such spells, and even then the majority of them wouldn't be interested in helping. The PCs are currently level 9 and bordering on some of the most powerful people with class levels that are of the 'good' persuasion.

A giant monster is running around blowing stuff up. Killing it will probably result in a great reputation, big payments and the like. Why wouldn't a power Evil figure not want that? Say 'Oh, I'd love to help, but the material components for this spell cost 5,000 GP.' and come out 5,000 GP richer.

Anyways, Phantasmal Killer is a fairly low-level SOD. Even low-DC spells are fine, just tie it down/beat it forever until it fails a save.

Gerrtt
2010-06-23, 09:18 AM
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with a sleeper cult, just that what they're worshipping happens to be a smaller-scale Cthulhu, and instead of the being actually existing they're attempting to actually create one.

As for repeating SoD's and higher level spells, they're in Eberron, so there are only a handful of people of high enough level to be able to do such spells, and even then the majority of them wouldn't be interested in helping. The PCs are currently level 9 and bordering on some of the most powerful people with class levels that are of the 'good' persuasion.

Neat!

I was in a game once where something similar happened. There was some kind of deity who's avatar form was dismembered and as a result the deity couldn't manifest in avatar form anymore. Which was convenient for the world since it went on a murderous rampage when in avatar form. The PCs were trying to get the pieces first to keep the opposing team from putting this monstrosity back together and having it tear the world to pieces. It's similar in that all the gory stuff happened off camera in the past, we were just going after the body parts (there were only 5, which made it smaller scale than I think you're going for).

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-23, 09:21 AM
how exactly would you beat it?

Depends entirely on the levels involved. At level 3 or higher, Ray of Stupidity can easily render such a creature entirely harmless. At level 5 or higher one could render it immobile via a sufficiently deep pit with sufficient amount of water to cause drowning and a Major Image to convince it to attack that area. 9th level or higher could Magic Jar it, giving a PC the immortal body you've created, Plane Shift it to anywhere else, etc. Beyond 9th level I don't feel I need to point out the ways to kill it.


would the creature be able to regenerate new limbs without having access to the original ones

As per Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration): Yes. It would regenerate new limbs at the rate specified in it's Regeneration entry(or a rate made by you assuming it's homebrew).

Cyclocone
2010-06-23, 09:22 AM
Greymantle or (whatever it's called) from SpC shuts down regeneration.

...But if you want to get creative, you could wis drain it with an allip, or PaO it into an amusing mantlepiece, or planeshift it into Juiblex, or.. well, you get the picture.:smallwink:

JeminiZero
2010-06-23, 09:22 AM
Assuming the DM (Me :smallbiggrin:) would to make a creature that Regenerates unless hit by Fire/Acid, then said creature is naturally immune to both Acid and Fire, how exactly would you beat it?

Assuming this is D&D 3.5, the link in my signature might interest you.

That said, if you are just using a troll with fire/acid immunity (from I dunno, half dragon templates) then it is still vulneable to the following
1) Suffocation (e.g. drowning, if you can trap it underwater long enough)
2) Ability Damage/Drain: Con damage/drain kills it outright, the rest either paralyze or comatize it, and then you can dunk its head in a bucket of water to drown it. Sources include: Poisons, Diseases, Vicious Weapon enchantment, summoned undead, Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch.
3) Energy Drain: They die when they gain negative levels in excess of Hit Dice. Sources include: Summmoned undead, certain weapon enchantments, Evervation and Energy Drain spells.
3) Hotter than Fire damage: Divine Fire, Hell Fire and Searing Fire all deal fire damage that bypasses fire immunity.
4) Trollbane: Next hit with Slashing/Piercing Weapons coated with this poison ignore regen. They probably need many vials of the stuff to ultimately wear a monster down, but damage won't be regenerated.
5) Save or Dies: Finger of Death, Slaying weapons and the like.
6) Dominate: Doesn't kill it, but you now have a really tough troll to throw at your enemies.

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 09:23 AM
Send it to the Positive Energy Plane - it will actually die twice as quickly as its healing works against it.

Searing Spell (and Irresistible Energy for the psionics fans) will also do the trick.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 09:26 AM
Well, having a creature immune to fire whose regeneration can only stop with fire strikes to me as rather odd. An alternative can be that it doesn't take damage from the fire, but it still stops the regenerative process.

An unconscious regenerative can be killed with a coup de grace.

You can also starve/drown the creature, since it doesn't regenerate hp loss from starvation, suffocation and thirst.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 09:28 AM
An unconscious regenerative can be killed with a coup de grace.


Isn't there a rule that the coup de grace must be with something that overcomes the regeneration?

Gerrtt
2010-06-23, 09:28 AM
Out of curiousity AngelOmnipotent, just how big of a critter are we talking about? Can we squeeze a few more details out of ya?

How does it get fire/acid immunity?
What CR do you expect this thing to have?
Will it have access to items?
Will it have access to magic of any kind?
What levels do you expect the PCs to encounter it?
Do you expect the PCs to encounter it?
If they encounter it, do you expect the PCs to stop it?

Because without the details people are just going to keep telling you to use magic to kill it without doing actual damage to it. Heck, even with the details people are probably going to tell you use magic to kill it without damage, but at least we'll know what we're dealing with.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-23, 09:37 AM
Isn't there a rule that the coup de grace must be with something that overcomes the regeneration?

Yep. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)

"An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. "

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 09:45 AM
Out of curiousity AngelOmnipotent, just how big of a critter are we talking about? Can we squeeze a few more details out of ya?

How does it get fire/acid immunity?
What CR do you expect this thing to have?
Will it have access to items?
Will it have access to magic of any kind?
What levels do you expect the PCs to encounter it?
Do you expect the PCs to encounter it?
If they encounter it, do you expect the PCs to stop it?

Because without the details people are just going to keep telling you to use magic to kill it without doing actual damage to it. Heck, even with the details people are probably going to tell you use magic to kill it without damage, but at least we'll know what we're dealing with.

It'll get immunities through templates and very cheesy methods to make it all natural that can't be suppressed. I'm not always a b*tch about it, but I want to make sure my players know this is a fight to remember, and will probably need the entire city to deal with it.

CR will be close to 18-20 or so. They won't be able to take it down on their own. At the same time the monster won't particularly be interested in individuals even if they're trying to kill it. This thing is going to try and destroy a specific target (details not worked out fully yet, but it doesn't really matter what; a target is a target) and won't stop until it does.

The monster could have access to items depending on what I decide to have the cultists give to it when they try to create it. Eberron is full of mysteries and ancient artifacts, there's no reason why this monster can't be given a discovery without the people who gave it to him knowing what it really does.

As for magic itself, it will have an assortment of buff-based SLAs, and one huge "death ray" damaging SLA. Details are yet to be determined, but it's likely to be fire-based. It can have class levels also; I haven't come up with a solid creature yet, it's more of an idea-in-progress.

The PCs will be level 9 when they encounter it, and the creature is trying to Destroy Sharn, so they will have a lot of help along the way. This thing, size wise, will be Colossal. They will encounter it when travelling back to Sharn from Xen'drik, finding it's almost in ruins. I'm not expecting my PCs to stop it by themselves, but help coming up with a strategy to deal with it. They're already renowned with all the Dragonmarked houses, and they are agents of the Silver Flame who will back them through anything, and the Royalty also knows them on first-name-basis.

Any other questions?

Telonius
2010-06-23, 09:50 AM
I'm thinking Polymorph Any Object, Baleful Polymorph, Flesh to Stone, Wail of the Banshee, Phantasmal Killer...

Actually, Phantasmal Killer will probably be their best bet. As a 4th-level Wizard spell, it's one they can currently cast. (That said, the spell does get two saves and Spell Resistance, so it's by no means a sure thing).

JeminiZero
2010-06-23, 10:02 AM
It'll get immunities through templates and very cheesy methods to make it all natural that can't be suppressed. I'm not always a b*tch about it, but I want to make sure my players know this is a fight to remember, and will probably need the entire city to deal with it.

Mechanically, this will be a little hard to pull off. When you have an entire city attacking a single target at once, it either goes down quickly if it is vulnerable to any of the many many things being throw at it, or it shrugs it off entirely. Having a accompanied by a bunch of minions might be a realistic way of having a creature that is still vulnerable, but which can go toe to toe with a city. Of course you could just rule zero it.


CR will be close to 18-20 or so. They won't be able to take it down on their own. At the same time the monster won't particularly be interested in individuals even if they're trying to kill it. This thing is going to try and destroy a specific target (details not worked out fully yet, but it doesn't really matter what; a target is a target) and won't stop until it does.

There is one other spell you should watch out for. Simulacrum. Suddenly your monster is fighting an equally unkillable copy of itself.

Gerrtt
2010-06-23, 10:06 AM
The party is nowhere near able to cast that though, since they are level 9 or 10.

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-23, 10:23 AM
The monster could have access to items depending on what I decide to have the cultists give to it when they try to create it.

Give it an item of Dimensional Anchor, so it can't be Plane Shifted away.


Destroy Sharn

Everything is trying to destroy Sharn these days.

Flickerdart
2010-06-23, 10:32 AM
The party is nowhere near able to cast that though, since they are level 9 or 10.
Summon Mirror Mephit is a 2nd level spell. :smalltongue:

unre9istered
2010-06-23, 10:36 AM
Option 1: After you beat it down, coup de gras with a disintigrate (from a scroll since they aren't high enough level yet.

Option 2: After you beat it down, hit it with Phantasmal Killers until it fails the fort save. Doesn't it automatically fail the will save by being unconscious (and there for 'willing')? Or is that only for "harmless" spells.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-23, 10:38 AM
If it's totally immune to everything I can throw at it, is clearly out of my league. I'd Fly away and find somebody else more capable of handling it. No sense flailing about uselessly in its mighty shadow.

Person_Man
2010-06-23, 10:53 AM
A Binder would actually love such a creature. Beat it to a pulp, and then store it in an adamantine jar (enhancing it if necessary to get it's hardness above the point where the creature's natural weapons can't harm it) just big enough to fit the creature, but not big enough so that it can move around.

Then use Shield Self on it until it fails a Will Save. Now for as long as you carry the jar around with you, 50% of your damage goes directly to the regenerating jar of goo, and the effect is permanent until one of you dies, moves too far away from each other, or you switch it to another target.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-23, 11:11 AM
Then use Shield Self on it until it fails a Will Save. Now for as long as you carry the jar around with you, 50% of your damage goes directly to the regenerating jar of goo, and the effect is permanent until one of you dies, moves too far away from each other, or you switch it to another target.

Or your pact expires in 24 hours.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:15 AM
Searing Spell!
What fire resistance?

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 11:17 AM
If it's totally immune to everything I can throw at it, is clearly out of my league. I'd Fly away and find somebody else more capable of handling it. No sense flailing about uselessly in its mighty shadow.

The problem is that the players are one of the few people around who are remotely capable of dealing with it, so they can't just fly away and hope for the best :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:29 AM
The problem is that the players are one of the few people around who are remotely capable of dealing with it, so they can't just fly away and hope for the best :smallbiggrin:

What level are your players?

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 11:30 AM
What level are your players?

9, and they're in Eberron.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:32 AM
Hum, then the positive energy plane is inaccessible. Does this sucker breathe?

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 11:34 AM
Well it was a man turned vampire, turned back again by some new-fangled research, involved in a ritual that made it an aberration and ghastly experiments turned it into a wannabe-god-like single-minded thing. So yeah, I suppose it does breathe.

Heh, the more I think about it, just stick a plastic bag around it's head and be done with it :smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:36 AM
Beat on it till the subdual damage knocks it out, and then just put its head in a bucket of water and wait. This comes up in the test of spite a lot, though people wised up and started using things like water-breathing, so it became most effective to just try to dispel.

Alternatively, Searing Spell.

Scipio
2010-06-23, 11:38 AM
Hum, then the positive energy plane is inaccessible. Does this sucker breathe?

Irian, the Eternal Day, has the positive energy traits in Eberron, correct? I am pretty sure Irian and Mabar replace the positive and negative energy planes with all the attendent traits.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:40 AM
Irian, the Eternal Day, has the positive energy traits in Eberron, correct? I am pretty sure Irian and Mabar replace the positive and negative energy planes with all the attendent traits.

Oooh, good call. But it's rather difficult to toss someone into Irian, the way that you could just planeshift a poor critter into the Pos Plane and watch them suffer Death By Awesome.

Unrelated note: I flinched when I saw your sig. It was lulzy.

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 11:42 AM
The main reason I'm asking these kinds of things is because I want my players to have to think of a creative way to get around this guy's immunities rather than just beating it senseless, so I'm looking for ideas. I will rule that if they manage to cut him up into pieces and make sure those pieces aren't able to get back together then he'll be temporarily 'dead' until they can find a way to destroy it.

Just so far all I can think is make sure he has items that give him Death Ward and something that means he doesn't need to breathe. These can be stripped off him with some elaborate thinking since the monster doesn't seem to bother too much with individual people. He'll probably have SR around 25-30ish, DR of some weird kind and immunities to various elements. Maybe different parts of his body provide him with different immunities, and each one has its own weakness. I like creating things, but I like my players to be able to see what rules I've pulled them from rather than just plucking out of thin air.

Also it's been rolled that Lamannia is the plane currently coterminous to Eberron, so getting to Irian will be a bit tough.

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:46 AM
I think you're going a bit over-board, here.....
We'd probably consider this a tier two build in the ToS, which makes it a real nasty heavy hitter from the standpoint of most gamers. I think you should be really careful, and try throwing one without the gear at them first. You can always toss another at them later with more stuff stacked into it.

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 11:48 AM
Why? It's an end-of-campaign thing that will finish off a very cinematic game thus far. I never said they have to defeat it by themselves. There's nothing stopping them calling in fleets of airships, or getting other continents to help out. There may even be some divine intervention at a price, thus leading to the next game :smalltongue:

At the end of the day the monster may successfully destroy Sharn and go on to destroy a lot of other things before it finally falls. Dealing with the afternath is yet another adventure :smallsmile: I have very open minded players, and a very vivid imagination that is even able to come up with functional custom monsters on the fly :smallredface:

Doc Roc
2010-06-23, 11:53 AM
Just don't give him Favor of the Martyr or something.

AngelOmnipotent
2010-06-23, 12:01 PM
Hmm, rather than having all the immunities himself, have others casting it on the monster so it looks like he does. See, you're giving me even more ideas :smalltongue: and yes, Favor of the Martyr is evil, evil, evil and I love it :smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 12:09 PM
I would presume that when you got it beaten into unconsciousness and then start chopping it up and cut its heart and brains out (perhaps even its liver for good measure) that it then could no longer regenerate, or if it would, that it would then somehow turn into an undead, but those don't have regeneration.

So yeah. o.O

Keld Denar
2010-06-23, 01:26 PM
If it regens like a troll, then when you dice it up, the largest piece regens into a whole troll and the rest of it whithers and dies. If you had an adamantine box, as described above, you could hack it into millions of tiny pieces, with the largest piece being the piece you hide in the box. That way, it would have no where to regen to, assuming the admanatine box is unbreakable.

Just don't let it out of the box.

Or better yet, fly on an airship over Droam, THEN let it out of the box. Yes...that would work nicely...

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-23, 01:49 PM
I would presume that when you got it beaten into unconsciousness and then start chopping it up and cut its heart and brains out (perhaps even its liver for good measure) that it then could no longer regenerate, or if it would, that it would then somehow turn into an undead, but those don't have regeneration.

So yeah. o.O

Great idea except it won't work he'll still regenerate.


Just beat it until it falls unconscious, and have some people spend shifts hitting it with coup de grace attacks to keep it like that, eventually you can have someone spam SODs on it until it fails a save.

For some reason I think non-lethal damage can't deal a coup de grace.

Anyway If a psion is present I'd use ego whip, even if it makes every save for half eventually its charisma will go down to 0. Then smother him until he suffocates.

Actually in the climatic battle at the end of a campaign I was in the plan to beat the big bad[who had plenty of minnions] was for my psion to ego whip him. The main tank went down after a couple rounds due to a natural 1 vs a mask of death.

We couldn't take him head on he'd rip us apart. We also knew he had teleportation items so trapping him would be difficult he had magic using allies to. We had already taken out a few allies and some careful spells from the wizard managed to slow him down for a round or two while we dealt with his meeker support. Then I turned my attention towards him and the party prepared to throw themselves in front of me as I figured unless he rolled a natural 1 it take two or three rounds to ego whip him to zero.
He rolled a natural 1. Then it was a scramble to make sure his divine support didn't cast heal on him. Or protection from good on the divine support I had dominated from him who could then cast heal.

Now they probably don't have access to a psion so poison or any other ability damaging effect should do, they'd just need a lot of it.

Using assay spell resistance followed by a
Baleful polymorph is an obvious choice as if the troll turns into a turtle, no more regeneration.

Also in the running is to hit him with enervation over and over again until he has huge penalties to saves THEN something like baleful polymorph.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 02:04 PM
For some reason I think non-lethal damage can't deal a coup de grace.


It's more specific than that in that only the "this one is lethal" types of damage work for death effects like a coup de grace. I guess the easiest way is to get around the regeneration weakness and use that one attack to slice if after you drop it unconscious.

unre9istered
2010-06-23, 02:06 PM
Also in the running is to hit him with enervation over and over again until he has huge penalties to saves THEN something like baleful polymorph.

Or just do this until he has 0 HD left and dies.

lsfreak
2010-06-23, 02:08 PM
Beat him into the negatives, then cloudkill in a small room.

There's ways of getting to it easily with certain feats, and thus a number of people in the world probably have them. Level drain is probably the easiest (fell draining metamagic + any spell that deals damage over multiple rounds, optionally extended; they'll probably need multiple casters at their level to get enervation to work before the levels go away). Searing metamagic + flame blade + coup de grace should work too.

Cut him up with one obviously larger piece. Keep said piece with you, and constantly keep it from regenerating in size larger than a basketball, and constantly cut off any apparatus that grows in order for it to feed itself. It starves to death.

Mechanically, creatures with regeneration can regrow from any size of itself. However, it makes sense that it can't do that if certain things have been damaged (brain, spinal cord, the special makes-regeneration-happen-organ). Alternatively, small enough pieces simply can't regenerate fast enough to grow to the point to give itself nutrients before it simply dies - like a worm that can regrow if you cut it in half, but if you cut it into a hundred pieces, there's simply not enough left to regrow.

Whenever it comes to regeneration, though, my default is turning it into a neverending food supply.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-23, 02:12 PM
It's more specific than that in that only the "this one is lethal" types of damage work for death effects like a coup de grace. I guess the easiest way is to get around the regeneration weakness and use that one attack to slice if after you drop it unconscious.

I wouldn't allow it. A coup de grace is suppose to be like a shot to the eye, slitting their throat, impaling their heart etc. But when a regenerating creature those things grow back.

I'd say a non-lethal damage coup de grace would its self be non-lethal. Which is useful if you want to knock someone out, but not so much if they have regeneration and are already unconscious.


Or just do this until he has 0 HD left and dies.

Oh yes and then fight the undead version of him the DM comes up with.


B Mechanically, creatures with regeneration can regrow from any size of itself. However, it makes sense that it can't do that if certain things have been damaged.

Which would defeat the purpose of regeneration just call it fast healing with limb regrowth and higher negatives until dead.

The regenerating organ is its soul.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 02:17 PM
I wouldn't allow it. A coup de grace is suppose to be like a shot to the eye, slitting their throat, impaling their heart etc. But when a regenerating creature those things grow back.

I'd say a non-lethal damage coup de grace would its self be non-lethal. Which is useful if you want to knock someone out, but not so much if they have regeneration and are already unconscious.

Uhh I think you didn't quite understand what I posted there. I said "It's more specific than that in that only the "this one is lethal" types of damage work for death effects like a coup de grace.", which means you have to bypass regeneration to coup it. Beat the thing into 40 negatives and then poke it with the bypassing damage. Essentially the classic "Kill trolls, burn corpses".

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-23, 02:18 PM
Uhh I think you didn't quite understand what I posted there. I said "It's more specific than that in that only the "this one is lethal" types of damage work for death effects like a coup de grace.", which means you have to bypass regeneration to coup it. Beat the thing into 40 negatives and then poke it with the bypassing damage. Essentially the classic "Kill trolls, burn corpses".

Except due to immunities there is no bypassing the damage. If they could bypass the damage they could beat it to death.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 02:19 PM
Except due to immunities there is no bypassing the damage. If they could bypass the damage they could beat it to death.

Which relates to when I said "find a way around it". Just look at the thread. 3/4 of the scant attempts at beating the monster are "get nastier fire".

lsfreak
2010-06-23, 02:24 PM
Oh yes and then fight the undead version of him the DM comes up with.
Burn disintegrate the body first. If you want to go by strict RAW, than burning does nothing (it says nothing about destroying the body stopping it from being raised), but then again by RAW the creature just raises as a normal, humanoid wight, whether it started out at a mosquito or an ancient dragon.


Which would defeat the purpose of regeneration just call it fast healing with limb regrowth and higher negatives until dead.

The regenerating organ is its soul.
It would still require enough knowledge to know that there's a regenerating organ and which organ that would be. If you're not careful, it might come alive while you're standing in its guts trying to figure out which organ is which. Then again, this may just be my intense hatred of creatures with arbitrary limited invulnerability talking (regeneration, tarrasque's wish requirement). For this type of creature, I suppose I could see it actually being part of the creature's essence that makes it regenerate.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-23, 02:36 PM
Burn disintegrate the body first. If you want to go by strict RAW, than burning does nothing (it says nothing about destroying the body stopping it from being raised), but then again by RAW the creature just raises as a normal, humanoid wight, whether it started out at a mosquito or an ancient dragon.

By RAW?
First enervation doesn't say what undead the creature rises as. And as a DM you don't see the PC's killing the big bad with negative levels as license to bring it back stronger then ever as an undead?

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 02:39 PM
The "Energy drain" section of the DMG does though-

Spells and monster abilities that kill via inflicting negative levels, cause the victim to raise as a wight (if the ability in the monster description doesn't specify that it comes back as some other creature.)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 02:41 PM
By RAW?
First enervation doesn't say what undead the creature rises as. And as a DM you don't see the PC's killing the big bad with negative levels as license to bring it back stronger then ever as an undead?

Death by Negative Levels, by the SRD, means you either raise as a wight or as the undead who drained you dead.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-23, 02:46 PM
Death by Negative Levels, by the SRD, means you either raise as a wight or as the undead who drained you dead.

Would you let that stop you from having it rise as something else?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 02:54 PM
Would you let that stop you from having it rise as something else?

If I felt it was anticlimatic, yeah I'd have him raise as "himself, but now with a draining touch, good luck folks"...

But that is way past the original topic, and if one is to go around waving DMness, well the only thing we really can do is tell the op "Be creative, Make Sense, and describe with lots of gore"

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 03:10 PM
Great idea except it won't work he'll still regenerate.

Probably yeah. By the rules as they are it wouldn't work. The problem is that you don't know what actually causes the regeneration.

gallagher
2010-06-23, 03:13 PM
remember the mighty Belkar, who defeated a hydra by continuously cutting off heads until it ran out of blood to keep it functional.

Tar Palantir
2010-06-23, 03:22 PM
If it came back as an undead version of itself, it couldn't regenerate, as a creature must have a Constitution score to have regeneration. So you level drain it to death, then use normal means to kill it again.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 03:24 PM
Apart from the Atropal in the SRD.

That's probably because it's an Abomination, which just happens to be undead as well.

The Mentalist
2010-06-23, 03:24 PM
remember the mighty Belkar, who defeated a hydra by continuously cutting off heads until it ran out of blood to keep it functional.


Yes, but I'm pretty sure that blood regenerates too.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 03:26 PM
I think it was a case of- the blood regenerates, but only to the amount a basic healthy hydra has.

Since this unique one could grow infinite heads, once there were too many for the basic amount of blood to supply- it passed out.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 03:27 PM
Apart from the Atropal in the SRD.

That's probably because it's an Abomination, which just happens to be undead as well.

Yeah, but at least the atropal has some leeway in the fact mortals don't abort eldritch abominations.

Dr.Epic
2010-06-23, 03:29 PM
Flesh to stone. It's not living, it's not dead, it's just an inanimate chunk of rock.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 03:29 PM
Yup- I don't think its the sort of undead a mortal necromancer of any kind can make.

Even with epic magic, it seems reasonable for the DM to say "you can't make these creatures"

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-23, 03:38 PM
Yes, but I'm pretty sure that blood regenerates too.

Hydras only have Fast Healing.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-23, 06:29 PM
The main reason I'm asking these kinds of things is because I want my players to have to think of a creative way to get around this guy's immunities rather than just beating it senselessActually, beating it senseless will generally eventually work... unless it doesn't need to eat/drink. See, damage dealt by starvation and thirst is unaffected by Regeneration, per RAW. This is one way to deal with the Tarrasque without burning a Wish. It just take a LOT of damage.

Hague
2010-06-23, 06:37 PM
Your solution is dessication damage. Check out Sandstorm, it's got plenty of instances of dessication damage. Your conjurer/necromancer could summon salt mummies which deal dessication damage. Essentially, it's any of those effects that hurt plants and water elementals more than others. Dessication damage is considered damage by thirst and it bypasses regeneration. Dry 'em up and use Gust of Wind to blow the withered husk away...

Edit: Oh and you can make any creatures with Epic Magic, that's kinda from where all the crazy messed up critters are supposed to come.

JeminiZero
2010-06-23, 08:58 PM
The main reason I'm asking these kinds of things is because I want my players to have to think of a creative way to get around this guy's immunities rather than just beating it senseless, so I'm looking for ideas.

Read my sig. You don't have to follow it exactly, but it does outline what sort of immunities are needed to make monster that players have to try and kill "creatively".


Just so far all I can think is make sure he has items that give him Death Ward and something that means he doesn't need to breathe. These can be stripped off him with some elaborate thinking since the monster doesn't seem to bother too much with individual people. He'll probably have SR around 25-30ish, DR of some weird kind and immunities to various elements. Maybe different parts of his body provide him with different immunities, and each one has its own weakness. I like creating things, but I like my players to be able to see what rules I've pulled them from rather than just plucking out of thin air.

Voidmind Wartroll is probably a good starting base. Regen 9/Acid, immunity to acid, mind-affecting, ability damage/drain and energy drain, SR 10+HD (22 without other HD or class advancements), technically CR 13. For equipment, add a necklace of adaptation to provide air, and ring of sustenance to provide food. Or else give it 10 levels in renegade mastermaker to give it warforged immunities. Change one of its feats to Steadfast Determination, so that it can make its fort saves even on a 1.

For Deathward, the item you are looking for is Soulfire armor (BoED 112). I would also recommend Proof against Transmutation (CArc 142) to protect against Polymorph and Disintegrate. It still needs flight, immunity to non-lethal damage (or ferocity which does effectively the same thing), and some means of staving off trollbane.

I would caution that SR 30 while seemingly high can be effectively brought down to 10 by Assay Resistance + True Casting, so it won't provide significant protection against prepared players (or entire cities for that matter).

fryplink
2010-06-23, 09:33 PM
wall it in with Wall of Stone, fill wall of stone with water, cover top, wait a week, clean tank.

if it breaks through the wall, just set all the rubble from the city he just destroyed on top of tank, so when he breaks it, it falls in on him, getting him stuck under several tons of stone

or maybe poison it? CON damage doesn't regenerate iirc, and diseases could be productive too (i think the BOVD has info on it, and I imagine the BOEF has rules on making your own 'unique' diseases), then do something to hold it in place long enough to die from a disease, perhaps the earlier mentioned stone walls?


maybe writing off Sharn and using magic and back breaking labor to dig a really deep hole all around Sharn while the innocent peasantry is brutally being killed by beast distract said beast? containing it, then later AMF-ing (and the psionic version too) the area, shortly before lighting the entire place on fire, drenching it in acid, and maybe even introducing some undead to the area. Even if the fire doesn't kill it, it will be forever contained within Sharns ruins.

If all else fails, turn it into "sealed evil in a can", by encasing it in multiple layers of rock, burying said boulder, putting boulder into a dead magic zone, building a temple/pyramid around boulder, protecting structure with Golems and mindless undead by comanding them to kill everything, and use permanent image a few hundred times to disguise the whole thing as a mountain?

CubeB
2010-06-23, 09:43 PM
There's a substance called Trollbane. It's non magical, and allows any attack to bypass regeneration for one round. They even mention Half Black Dragon Wartroll as an example for what to use it against. Costs 90gp a Dose, full rules are in Dungeonscape.

The logical thing to do is to knock it out, then Coup De Grace it with a Trollbane coated weapon.

Arbitrarity
2010-06-23, 10:04 PM
There's a substance called Trollbane. It's non magical, and allows any attack to bypass regeneration for one round. They even mention Half Black Dragon Wartroll as an example for what to use it against. Costs 90gp a Dose, full rules are in Dungeonscape.

The logical thing to do is to knock it out, then Coup De Grace it with a Trollbane coated weapon.

Dammit, I was ABOUT to say that :D