Why don't the Jedi go Sylar?

[Ichneumon]

I'm just rewatching the 6 Star Wars films, and something bugs me...

All the Jedi have these awesome force telekinetic powers that would be very handy in combat. However, you only see them use their powers rarely. Occasionally they choose to instead of destroying an enemy with their lightswords they knock them out against a wall or something, however they use it so sparingly that I'm even thinking it is used just enough time to remind us that they are able of doing other things then just wielding swords. Why don't they use it more often? Why doesn't Obi-Wan try to knock Darth Maul over the edge with the force? Why doesn't any of the Jedi try to knock their opponent off any of the 90000 bridges? Why don't they use these powers during combat more often?

Honestly, how unrealistic is it that anyone with telekinetic powers wouldn't use their powers ALL the time. Just look at Sylar (from the television series Heroes), he uses his powers for everything.

[Mordar]

Honestly, how unrealistic is it that anyone with telekinetic powers wouldn't use their powers ALL the time. Just look at Sylar (from the television series Heroes), he uses his powers for everything.

I'm not arguing that the combat in the SW movies was wondrous or realistic or anything of that fashion...but you do realize that you're asking why the Jedi (supposed paragons of virtue and honor in the Star Wars universe) don't act more like the Big Bad Evil Villian of the Heroes francishe, right?

- M

[doliest]

I'm guessing.....nope no reason they don't. Especially considering most of their opponent can't stop such an attack.

[Eorran]

Most of the tactics used by the Jedi in Star Wars, especially the first three films, is summed up nicely in a Spaceballs quote by Dark Helmet:

"Now, Lone Star, you see that Evil will always triumph, because Good is Dumb."

[npc revolution]

From a writing perspective, I guess someone just thought lightsword fights would look cooler than stuff flying round.

To give an in-universe explanation, I guess it just requires a whole lot of concentration and is really difficult to do.

[Force]

Couple reasons:

Using the Force requires concentration. Hard to do when you're in a fight.

Most Force-users can also block telekinesis. Lightsaber battles are as much a battle of mind as blade as the two opponents struggle against eachother.

[WalkingTarget]

Well, those of us who grew up with the original series as the only Star Wars stuff available remember something Yoda said: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack." Even seeing Jedi push guys around during a fight in the prequels seemed a bit shady to me.

[Flickerdart]

Well, those of us who grew up with the original series as the only Star Wars stuff available remember something Yoda said: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack." Even seeing Jedi push guys around during a fight in the prequels seemed a bit shady to me.
In Return of the Jedi, Luke takes out a bunch of Jabba's guards with the Force, and he wasn't even that good at things.

[Makensha]

In Return of the Jedi, Luke takes out a bunch of Jabba's guards with the Force, and he wasn't even that good at things.

Luke isn't the perfect Jedi. He really only had guidance for a short period of time before being left to his own devices.

[Mando Knight]

I thought the point of Luke showing up and doing things in RotJ was to show off that he really is a Jedi.

[Superglucose]

In Return of the Jedi, Luke takes out a bunch of Jabba's guards with the Force, and he wasn't even that good at things.
By Return of the Jedi he was pretty good at what he did.

And also there's the force resistance thing to be aware of. If I can use "force push" on you, why can't you use "force push" to counteract it by pushing behind you? Or concentrating and negating my attack? To me the most obvious reason why the fights come down to blade on blade is in the Dooku vs Yoda fight: Dooku tries to make it about the force, but he can't get anywhere because Yoda can just counter it all.

So let me counter your question with another question: why can't this supernatural style of attack have an equally supernatural style of counter? Why can't the counter be easier to use than the attack itself, meaning that in a battle between relatively skilled force users, using the force to attack is useless? And most importantly, why can't Team Good have a moral objection to hurling people off cliffs willy nilly using the force? Just because you have nuclear weapons doesn't mean you use them in every battle.

[Texas_Ben]

Well, those of us who grew up with the original series as the only Star Wars stuff available remember something Yoda said: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack." Even seeing Jedi push guys around during a fight in the prequels seemed a bit shady to me.
I am quoting this because it is a good thing to have said and is exactly what I was going to say.


In Return of the Jedi, Luke takes out a bunch of Jabba's guards with the Force, and he wasn't even that good at things.
He doesn't "take them out", he chokes them while he walks by. It wasn't exactly an "attack", nor was it really an offensive use of the force. It was a distraction so he could get past them. I'm assuming he opted to choke them precisely because he was still relatively inexperienced. A more veteran force user would have presumably gotten by with more subtle manipulations.

[Mercenary Pen]

I thought the point of Luke showing up and doing things in RotJ was to show off that he really is a Jedi.

Except that, per the EU, he took a half-step towards the dark side during Ep6, spending years on the borderline between the light and the dark (indeed, during the Dark Empire graphic novels he stepped over it)- and his instruction of other jedi was tainted by that...

[darkblade]

See the original Clone Wars cartoon and the Force Unleashed video game. In both examples the telekinetic aspects of the force are used extensively and often times are shown to be more impressive than lightsabres.

[TheThan]

There’s another thing that always bothers me about the force. Force users are supposed to be capable of doing so much more than just flinging things around. Yet all we ever really see (or read) them doing is flinging things around. I guess this is why my favorite Jedi can’t or don’t rely on telekinesis, because that makes things more interesting.

It seems like many of the Jedi you see in the prequels and EU use the force as a crutch, to make up for their inabilities in other areas.

[Mercenary Pen]

There’s another thing that always bothers me about the force. Force users are supposed to be capable of doing so much more than just flinging things around. Yet all we ever really see (or read) them doing is flinging things around. I guess this is why my favorite Jedi can’t or don’t rely on telekinesis, because that makes things more interesting.

It seems like many of the Jedi you see in the prequels and EU use the force as a crutch, to make up for their inabilities in other areas.

Corran Horn on that list?

[TheThan]

Corran Horn on that list?

of course he is.

[hamishspence]

His inability is telekinesis (but he has unusual aptitude at illusions to compensate).

That said, quite a few of his strengths have nothing to do with being a Jedi- cop skills, piloting skills.

[Mystic Muse]

you do realize that you're asking why the Jedi (supposed paragons of virtue and honor in the Star Wars universe) don't act more like the Big Bad Evil Villian of the Heroes francishe, right?

- M

This is a very good point. As other have said though, using the force takes concentration and it's hard to concentrate in the middle of battle. Especially when what you're fighting with can cut off limbs just by making contact with you. Even then, we don't know how easy it is to counter something like that as others have pointed out.

[Sholos]

See the original Clone Wars cartoon and the Force Unleashed video game. In both examples the telekinetic aspects of the force are used extensively and often times are shown to be more impressive than lightsabres.

As well, in the game, try using your offensive force powers against enemy Jedi. It rarely works.

[Samurai Jill]

So let me counter your question with another question: why can't this supernatural style of attack have an equally supernatural style of counter? Why can't the counter be easier to use than the attack itself...
Force lightning worked just fine on Yoda and Windu, the best the 'light side' had to offer.

...why can't Team Good have a moral objection to hurling people off cliffs willy nilly using the force? Just because you have nuclear weapons doesn't mean you use them in every battle.
Yes, because bisecting them with a blade of liquid plasma is so much more humane.

I don't know why the Jedi don't just carry guns. The usual explanation is that they can use their super-fast reflexes and unerring aim to parry blaster-shots, but if both opponents have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, the guy with a gun still has a huge advantage. (Besides, if you have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, you could shoot five or six of your opponents before they even drew their weapons. A good offence is often the best defence.)

...Oh no! Star Wars doesn't make sense! *slaps hands on cheeks*

[Mystic Muse]

Force lightning worked just fine on Yoda and Windu, the best the 'light side' had to offer.

Yes, because bisecting them with a blade of liquid plasma is so much more humane.


I'd rather be bisected by a blade of liquid plasma than fall off a cliff to my (maybe) death personally. Much quicker.

[Leecros]

See the original Clone Wars cartoon and the Force Unleashed video game. In both examples the telekinetic aspects of the force are used extensively and often times are shown to be more impressive than lightsabres.

i've never seen the Clone Wars cartoon(well...some of it, but not enough to gauge anything on), but you do realize that in Force Unleashed they try to set-up Galen Marek as one of the most powerful Force Users ever...in fact it even says that on the wiki
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galen_Marek#Force_abilities

[Ravens_cry]

I have only seen one, but Obi exploded a crazy worm creature from the inside out, Men in Black style, apparently with his force abilities alone.

[The J Pizzel]

It is explained rather nicely in the Darth Bane book. Force users, while in combat, wrap themselves in a low powerful telekinetic bubble. This is to block simple TK attacks such as the other user force pushing you off balance, or even more simple things like using TK to knock the lightsaber out your hand. It is not very powerful, but it blocks simple things while not taking too much concentration at the same time.

As to why they're not Force Pushing each other, the answer is simple. The force allows a user to sense upcoming attack (which is explained in several books and the movies), so a user knows when his opponent is about to use such an attack, and he would use a defensive technique. Which would include evasion or blocking. Blocking would result in what happened to Obi and Anakin when they were fighting on Mustafar.

Hope this clears it up.

[Mordar]

Yes, because bisecting them with a blade of liquid plasma is so much more humane.

I don't know why the Jedi don't just carry guns. The usual explanation is that they can use their super-fast reflexes and unerring aim to parry blaster-shots, but if both opponents have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, the guy with a gun still has a huge advantage. (Besides, if you have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, you could shoot five or six of your opponents before they even drew their weapons. A good offence is often the best defence.)

...Oh no! Star Wars doesn't make sense! *slaps hands on cheeks*

(Okay, I'm about to be snarky, but it isn't personal...I promise!)

If only there were some real-world reference I could use to point out the reason that Jedi eschewed the use of blasters...perhaps someone's name could trigger the thought.

Oh wait! I got it...Samurai! The use of gunpowder was the antithesis of the Samurai way when it came to weapons...untrained peasants could use them to kill indesciminately, so they were not honorable. Blasters and Jedi run the same way, I suspect...particularly given the Hidden Fortress influences on Lucas and that movie about a few samurai that somebody made famous... :smallwink:

It's not about a more humane way to kill, but a more honorable way to kill. (But don't ask about Ben disarming the scum in Mos Eisley...)

- M

[Dr.Epic]

I'm just rewatching the 6 Star Wars films, and something bugs me...

All the Jedi have these awesome force telekinetic powers that would be very handy in combat. However, you only see them use their powers rarely. Occasionally they choose to instead of destroying an enemy with their lightswords they knock them out against a wall or something, however they use it so sparingly that I'm even thinking it is used just enough time to remind us that they are able of doing other things then just wielding swords. Why don't they use it more often? Why doesn't Obi-Wan try to knock Darth Maul over the edge with the force? Why doesn't any of the Jedi try to knock their opponent off any of the 90000 bridges? Why don't they use these powers during combat more often?

Honestly, how unrealistic is it that anyone with telekinetic powers wouldn't use their powers ALL the time. Just look at Sylar (from the television series Heroes), he uses his powers for everything.

At the end of Revenge of the Sith, there was a moment where Obiwan and Anikin both used the force to try to push each other back. It was one of the stupidest things I saw in the entire prequel trilogy. It amounted to the two just standing there with arms extended for a few seconds. Imagine two people both saying "Talk to the hand." and then getting hurled across the room.

[Samurai Jill]

(Okay, I'm about to be snarky, but it isn't personal...I promise!)
Don't worry 'bout it. :smallamused:

If only there were some real-world reference I could use to point out the reason that Jedi eschewed the use of blasters...perhaps someone's name could trigger the thought.

Oh wait! I got it...Samurai! The use of gunpowder was the antithesis of the Samurai way when it came to weapons...untrained peasants could use them to kill indesciminately, so they were not honorable.
Well, strictly speaking I should mention that real Samurai only starting paying major attention to Bushido once they became irrelevant in a military capacity, (in much the same way that the overwhelming majority of actual medieval knights barely paid lip service to Chivalry.)

It's not as if Jedi are particularly hung up on other fine points of 'honourable conduct'- they'll lie, use mind control, cheat at dice, hide in the smuggling compartments rather than fight, etc. etc. etc. Honour is all well and good, but effectiveness counts for a lot.

[factotum]

The thing is, the lightsabre is a Jedi's signature weapon--they use them so people will know who they are (you don't see non-Jedi with lightsabres, apart from General Grievous). A Jedi with a blaster would not be a Jedi.

[Samurai Jill]

It is explained rather nicely in the Darth Bane book. Force users, while in combat, wrap themselves in a low powerful telekinetic bubble. This is to block simple TK attacks such as the other user force pushing you off balance, or even more simple things like using TK to knock the lightsaber out your hand. It is not very powerful, but it blocks simple things while not taking too much concentration at the same time.

As to why they're not Force Pushing each other, the answer is simple. The force allows a user to sense upcoming attack (which is explained in several books and the movies), so a user knows when his opponent is about to use such an attack, and he would use a defensive technique. Which would include evasion or blocking.
Yes, but equally, Jedi should be capable of sensing an opponent's lightsabre moves (which should be trivial compared with intuiting blaster shots blindfold,) but it doesn't appear that every lightsabre duel results in a stalemate.

One might suppose that Force techniques, by their nature, are easier to see coming, but the real reason is simple: lightsabre fighting looks cool, trench warfare is boring, and duels based on pure force powers would seem completely arbitrary unless you delved deeply enough into the precise 'mechanics' of the Force that it loses all mystique. The Force is there to act as a semi-intelligent mystical plot device. If you make if predictable and mechanistic, you're right back at Midichlorians.

[Ravens_cry]

The thing is, the lightsabre is a Jedi's signature weapon--they use them so people will know who they are (you don't see non-Jedi with lightsabres, apart from General Grievous). A Jedi with a blaster would not be a Jedi.
Strictly speaking, lightsabre knockoffs in the form of lightfoils (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil) were used by non Force sensitives.

[Emperor Ing]

The way I see it, Jedi (and Sith by extension) use their force affinity for other effects. Lightsabers themselves can, with a few exceptions of course, only be held by force users.

Furthermore, a Jedi's concentration is put into the force guiding the movements of their body and lightsaber. As demonstrated in Episode IV, this is how Jedi are able to use lightsabers to deflect fast-moving projectiles they can't see. One thing i've noticed from the movies is that in order to manifest the force in offensive effects such as Push or Saber Throw, the force user needs a pause from combat.

[Oslecamo]

The way I see it, Jedi (and Sith by extension) use their force affinity for other effects. Lightsabers themselves can, with a few exceptions of course, only be held by force users.

Furthermore, a Jedi's concentration is put into the force guiding the movements of their body and lightsaber.

This. Swinging around a lightsaber whitout mutilating yourself is already proof that you're using the force in battle. The magnetic fields needed to keep the plasma in place make the lightsaber move by itself in an unpredictable and dangerous manner. One needs to use the force to keep it in check.

[Jayngfet]

Here's the real reason.

It costs a lot more to make it look like huge chunks of the set are moving than it does to have people move two props around.

Therefore we'll see more glowy prop swinging than force powers.

[Mauther]

This. Swinging around a lightsaber whitout mutilating yourself is already proof that you're using the force in battle. The magnetic fields needed to keep the plasma in place make the lightsaber move by itself in an unpredictable and dangerous manner. One needs to use the force to keep it in check.

So Han Solo is a Jedi when he cuts open the Tauntaun without blowing himself up in a plasma reaction? No. Its that using a sword in a gun fight without magical superpowers like precognition and super reflexes is suicide.

To see Jedi and Sith going full bore, check out the trailers for the upcoming MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic. There's one called "Deceived (http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/deceived-cinematic-trailer)" and another from E3 2010 called "Hope (http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer)" In my opinion their about 10 times better than anything in the prequels, and bring teh awesome as the kids are saying. I mean, what kind of Jedi hits a man with a tree? One who doesn't whine and fall into lava, that's what kind. Damn you Anakin!

[Ravens_cry]

Here's the real reason.

It costs a lot more to make it look like huge chunks of the set are moving than it does to have people move two props around.

Therefore we'll see more glowy prop swinging than force powers.
This, so much this. When it costs the same, or even less possibly (animating a brick flying across the room is easier then intricate swordplay), like in the cartoon, you see over the top force power use.

[Hawriel]

The way I see it, Jedi (and Sith by extension) use their force affinity for other effects. Lightsabers themselves can, with a few exceptions of course, only be held by force users.

This is not true. Totaly fals. Just silly with no support.

Han Solo is primary evidence if you must have a film reference.

There is nothing in the star wars franchise be it movie, comics, novel, or cartoon that sais only jedi can use a lightsaber. The only thing invalving the useage or creation of a lightsaber is that the force is used to refine the focus crustal. That is it. Every thing els is mundane. Coran horn built his lightsaber out of scounged parts. The handle being a swoop bike handlebar.

In the young jedi knights series there was a character who was not a force user and used a lightsaber.

The reason why most peaple do not use a lightsaber other than jedi or sith is a very simple one. It is partly the same reason why we in real life do not use swords. Every one has guns. It is a traditional weapon for the jedi and sith. Not unlike the katana is for samurai. The art of using a sword goes along with the philosophy of being attuned with yourself and seroundings. Again I point out Japans martial arts for the sword.

[Dr.Epic]

To be fair, Vader choked a few people using it.

[Kris Strife]

This. Swinging around a lightsaber whitout mutilating yourself is already proof that you're using the force in battle. The magnetic fields needed to keep the plasma in place make the lightsaber move by itself in an unpredictable and dangerous manner. One needs to use the force to keep it in check.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsabers

No where on here does it say anything about Jedi using the force to keep the blade working. Lightsabers weren't even going to be a Jedi only weapon in the original draft.

[ZeroNumerous]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsabers

No where on here does it say anything about Jedi using the force to keep the blade working. Lightsabers weren't even going to be a Jedi only weapon in the original draft.

No where does Oslecamo talk about using the Force to keep the blade working. He does, however, talk about using the Force to keep the blade from cutting you.

As for references from the very link you posted:


To wield a lightsaber was to demonstrate incredible skill and confidence, as well as masterful dexterity and attunement to the Force.


They did not require any connection to the Force to create, and were fully usable by non-Force sensitives.


Lightsaber combat was the preferred fighting method used by lightsaber wielders, many of the forms and styles being designed to compensate for the gyroscopic effect inherent in lightsabers, and take advantage of the Force-sensitivity common in most wielders.

So it's not like the idea that only Force-sensitives can use a Lightsaber effectively is alien to the setting. I disagree with his idea presented, but it's not without support.

[Kris Strife]

Except the Prequel movies have an example of a non-force sensitive who uses lightsabers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grievous

Shouldn't be any question as to if a non-force user can wield lightsabers any more, even if you don't count the already mentioned example of Han borrowing Luke's saber to cut open a Taun-Taun.

[KnightDisciple]

Except the Prequel movies have an example of a non-force sensitive who uses lightsabers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grievous

Shouldn't be any question as to if a non-force user can wield lightsabers any more, even if you don't count the already mentioned example of Han borrowing Luke's saber to cut open a Taun-Taun.Grievous is such a special case it isn't even funny. He's an 8-foot tall 4-armed ambidextrous cyborg killing machine. Of course he can use lightsabers; he was designed from the ground up as a Jedi killer.

[Dr.Epic]

Grievous is such a special case it isn't even funny. He's an 8-foot tall 4-armed ambidextrous cyborg killing machine. Of course he can use lightsabers; he was designed from the ground up as a Jedi killer.

He doesn't so much uses lightsabers as he spins them around like a whirling blades of death. He's a helicopter that can't fly.

[Kris Strife]

Grievous is such a special case it isn't even funny. He's an 8-foot tall 4-armed ambidextrous cyborg killing machine. Of course he can use lightsabers; he was designed from the ground up as a Jedi killer.


The general was trained in the art of lightsaber combat by Dooku himself, who was also a Sith Lord. Grievous was a quick study and eventually came to be recognized as one of the most skilled duelists in the galaxy.

He still had to be trained to use them. I'd imagine that anyone could be trained to use a lightsaber in combat.

[Catch]

To see Jedi and Sith going full bore, check out the trailers for the upcoming MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic. There's one called "Deceived (http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/deceived-cinematic-trailer)" and another from E3 2010 called "Hope (http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer)" In my opinion their about 10 times better than anything in the prequels, and bring teh awesome as the kids are saying.

This annoys me, so I apologize for going off in response to your post; it's not directed at you, only the argument.

That said, using the inverse power creep in Star Wars as a point of reference is asinine, and the primary reason why these discussions have no traction. Force combat grew more complex and "cooler" in direct proportion with cinema (and game) technology and production budgets. There's one clunky lightsaber fight in A New Hope, between two of the most revered Jedi in the universe, and it looks like a slap fight in the back of a middle school classroom. There is no in-universe justification for that, especially when Dark Horse comics and The Force Unleashed made Vader into a juggernaut of badass. His old master shows up, legendary general Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the two swat at each other like kids in the toy aisle of Wal-Mart. The "reason" why that duel was so simple was because Alec Guiness was 63, David Prowse had arthritis, and George Lucas was trying to make a movie on only 11 million dollars. The revisionist history of the EU has nothing to do with it.

Subsequent films had more production money (Return of the Jedi had almost triple the budget of A New Hope), more time devoted to lightsaber duels, and a younger cast, often with body doubles. Fans wanted to see lightsaber action, and the prequel trilogies and the games delivered it, fast and furious and without purpose. Notice how in the original trilogy, there's one lightsaber duel per film, and each time, it's steeped in plot exposition, at a climax in the story. The scenes are less about cartwheeling antics to shame Errol Flynn and more about clashing ideologies given expression through physical combat. The lightsaber was a physical incarnation of an idea, and when they crossed it was a battle of wills. Plotwise, telekinetic shenanigans were unnecessary, budgetwise, they were expensive. Any other reason is just retcon spin.

[Mando Knight]

Except the Prequel movies have an example of a non-force sensitive who uses lightsabers.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Grievous

Shouldn't be any question as to if a non-force user can wield lightsabers any more, even if you don't count the already mentioned example of Han borrowing Luke's saber to cut open a Taun-Taun.

As mentioned, Grievous is a special case. Han uses it for a few seconds in Empire, but in that short period it's clear he's uncomfortable with the weapon. Force Sensitivity is required to make the weapon, but after that anyone with enough guts can use it (unless it's been made to activate via a Force-trigger, as some EU examples are wont to do).

SAGA represents this by making the Lightsaber a weapon proficiency separate from even the Advanced Melee Weapons, which cover vibroblades. Only the Jedi class starts out with 'saber proficiency.

However, an Elite Trooper can amusingly make use of a lightsaber that's been modified into an exotic weapon via the weapon modification rules (making a non-exotic weapon exotic gives it an extra upgrade slot) and the Exotic Weapon Training talent (which grants effective proficiency in all exotic weapons).

[Jayngfet]

Whats this about using the lightsaber without cutting yourself in half? It's seriously the most rediculous star wars idea I've ever heard, because apparently you wind up touching yourself with the blade all the time with an actual sword. Especially since it's very rare to be fighting something that can parry and duel you, since most people use blasters or vibroweapons that can be nearly sliced in two.

I mean, it's not like anyone wielding an actual sword in real life needed the help of some great energy field.

[Revlid]

Personally, I'm still trying to work out why the Droid army didn't use chemical weapons on the generally lightly-armoured Jedi.

Hell, I'm wondering why General "Jedi-Killer" Grievous didn't have a hardpoint-mounted flamethrower/widespread shotgun. Block that with your laser sword, why don't you?

[Ravens_cry]

Personally, I'm still trying to work out why the Droid army didn't use chemical weapons on the generally lightly-armoured Jedi.

Hell, I'm wondering why General "Jedi-Killer" Grievous didn't have a hardpoint-mounted flamethrower/widespread shotgun. Block that with your laser sword, why don't you?
Because then the heroes wouldn't win. It's as simple as that.

[Jayngfet]

Because then the heroes wouldn't win. It's as simple as that.

Indeed. It's the same reason a futuristic street criminal can shoot perfectly every time but dozens of highly trained elite soldiers can't hit point blank firing all at once.

[Arakune]

I Kotor you COULD go Sylar, but it cost too much force points at the time and slashing with your lightsaber was faster. And apparently in Force Unleashed the protagonist DOES go Sylar.

[Texas_Ben]

I Kotor you COULD go Sylar, but it cost too much force points at the time and slashing with your lightsaber was faster. And apparently in Force Unleashed the protagonist DOES go Sylar.

I don't know what you mean by "going sylar", but I rarely bothered with my lightsaber in KOTOR unless it was a boss fight.

[KnightDisciple]

Frankly, people are throwing around the phrase "going Sylar" when they apparently mean "use big crude force pushes".

Remember what Sylar did in Heroes? He sliced skulls open with TK. He was as precise as a scalpel.

I don't know if there's ever been Force usage by Light or Dark that truly approaches that level of fine control and manipulation.

[The Glyphstone]

Probably some Mary Sue EU author-insert Sith could do it.

[snoopy13a]

I always understood that force users of similar abilities could counter a force push.

For example, look at the Yoda/Dooku fight in Attack of the Clones. Dooku tries to use force powers on Yoda but Yoda counters. Since their ability is roughly equal, they decide to settle it with lightsabers.

Compare that with the Luke/Darth fight in Empire Strikes Back. At one point, Vader is pummeling Luke with objects. This works because Vader is a better force user at this point. Vader didn't use this strategy in Return of the Jedi, possibly because he knew Luke had improved and it would no longer work.

[Catch]

Frankly, people are throwing around the phrase "going Sylar" when they apparently mean "use big crude force pushes".

Remember what Sylar did in Heroes? He sliced skulls open with TK. He was as precise as a scalpel.

I don't know if there's ever been Force usage by Light or Dark that truly approaches that level of fine control and manipulation.

I find your lack of faith in the EU disturbing.

Vergere (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergere) developed a technique called "Art of the Small" which allowed one to manipulate matter on the microscopic level. Cilghal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cilghal), a Jedi healer of significant renown, used the technique to help Mara Jade survive a virulent disease (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coomb_spore) by entering her bloodstream and locating and destroying each of the spores individually. It's ridiculous EU canon, but there you have it.

Edit: @V: Yeah, it was the same technique.

[KnightDisciple]

I find your lack of faith in the EU disturbing.

Vergere (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergere) developed a technique called "Art of the Small" which allowed one to manipulate matter on the microscopic level. Cilghal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cilghal), a Jedi healer of significant renown, used the technique to help Mara Jade survive a virulent disease (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coomb_spore) by entering her bloodstream and locating and destroying each of the spores individually. It's ridiculous EU canon, but there you have it.I remember Cilghal curing Mon Mothma of some sort of nano-virus. It took hours, and incredible concentration. A big feat, but for the greatest Jedi healer of the time, not a crazy one.

Vergere? Who's that? /sarcasm

[chiasaur11]

I find your lack of faith in the EU disturbing.

Vergere (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergere) developed a technique called "Art of the Small" which allowed one to manipulate matter on the microscopic level. Cilghal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cilghal), a Jedi healer of significant renown, used the technique to help Mara Jade survive a virulent disease (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coomb_spore) by entering her bloodstream and locating and destroying each of the spores individually. It's ridiculous EU canon, but there you have it.

And this is why the only EU material I accept is Tag and Blink.

Okay, maybe Kotor, the old Clone Wars cartoon, and Republic Commando, but that's it.

[Catch]

And this is why the only EU material I accept is Tag and Blink.

Okay, maybe Kotor, the old Clone Wars cartoon, and Republic Commando, but that's it.

I decided to bail after R.A. Salvatore took a break from writing whiny-loner Drizzt novels and killed Chewbacca.

You just don't do that. It's strange to think about it, but that was ten years ago.

[Tavar]

I decided to bail after R.A. Salvatore took a break from writing whiny-loner Drizzt novels and killed Chewbacca.

You just don't do that. It's strange to think about it, but that was ten years ago.
I've never read the books where this happen, but from what I've heard about it I'm okay with it. And it's not like Salvatore decided to do it alone. Again, from what I've heard the authors collectively decided to kill a main character, and through various methods decided on the one they went with.

Oh, and he doesn't have all that much of a choice in regards to Drizzt. He tried to kill Drizzt off, but Wizards wouldn't let him, and when he the tried to leave the series, they shopped around for another author to write them.



And this is why the only EU material I accept is Tag and Blink.

Okay, maybe Kotor, the old Clone Wars cartoon, and Republic Commando, but that's it.
Who? And what about the Thrawn books, or if you're okay with a bit more pulp, the X-Wing books?

[druid91]

I'd rather be bisected by a blade of liquid plasma than fall off a cliff to my (maybe) death personally. Much quicker.

Eh, I'd take the fall, better chance of survival.

[Mystic Muse]

Eh, I'd take the fall, better chance of survival.

Yeah, but I doubt I'd survive so I'm going to go with the quicker death.

[Orzel]

Force combat relies heavily on counterattacks, sneak attacks, pattern recognition, baiting, feints, and detecting weaknesses. Because jedi can see 99% of everything in combat, victory requires the attack to unseen or unblockable/undodgable.

Slow flying crates are hard to hide and easy to dodge.

[Zevox]

Frankly, people are throwing around the phrase "going Sylar" when they apparently mean "use big crude force pushes".

Remember what Sylar did in Heroes? He sliced skulls open with TK. He was as precise as a scalpel.

I don't know if there's ever been Force usage by Light or Dark that truly approaches that level of fine control and manipulation.
I don't know about the fine manipulation thing (Jedi TK functions great at levitating and moving things, after all). Rather, it seems more a matter that force pushes always function as a blunt force, never a cutting one, so Jedi couldn't slice anything open with it. That's what lightsabers are for.


I decided to bail after R.A. Salvatore took a break from writing whiny-loner Drizzt novels and killed Chewbacca.

You just don't do that. It's strange to think about it, but that was ten years ago.
I don't see what the big deal with that is. As Tavar said, it wasn't his decision to do so, and in any event he got one of the most badass deaths you could ask for. Seriously, a friggin' moon fell on him, while he was shaking his fist defiantly at it. What more could you ask for?

Of course, personally, I was never a fan of Chewbacca anyway, so his death wouldn't bother me even if it was badly done.

Zevox

[Douglas]

I decided to bail after R.A. Salvatore took a break from writing whiny-loner Drizzt novels and killed Chewbacca.

You just don't do that. It's strange to think about it, but that was ten years ago.
That choice was dictated to Salvatore from on high, and it served a good purpose - stories have a lot less tension if you know from the beginning that certain characters are guaranteed to survive, and Chewbacca's death served as a notice that the list of "can't die" characters had been shortened dramatically.

[Zevox]

That choice was dictated to Salvatore from on high, and it served a good purpose - stories have a lot less tension if you know from the beginning that certain characters are guaranteed to survive, and Chewbacca's death served as a notice that the list of "can't die" characters had been shortened dramatically.
On the other hand, they seem to have the reverse problem ever since that series.
After killing off Chewie and Anakin in the NJO books the next major series featured the deaths of Mara Jade, Gilad Pellaeon, and Jacen Solo. And in the current series it looks like they're going to kill off Tahiri (though in full honesty she hasn't been particularly interesting, or even consistently portrayed, since the NJO books anyway, and I can't help but feel that she deserves to be found guilty in her trial personally, so I'm not bothered by that), and I've been expecting since book 1 of the current series that they're prepping to kill Luke Skywalker by the end of it, and frankly the evidence making me think that has just been mounting as it goes along. They're getting predictable in this I'd say, perhaps even falling into the trap of thinking that they have to "outdo" the deaths of the previous major series with each new big one.

Plus they really can't kill off Jaina now, since if she doesn't make it to old age the story of the Solo family will have become entirely too depressing, and with Mara gone Ben has similar immunity at least until he has a child of his own since the Skywalker line has to continue given they've featured future descendants of it in other EU material. Which adds to the predictability. As far as major characters go, they're going to be down to just Luke, Han, and Leia as options soon, and as I said I think they're going for Luke in the current series.
Zevox

[Moglorosh]

Whats this about using the lightsaber without cutting yourself in half? It's seriously the most rediculous star wars idea I've ever heard, because apparently you wind up touching yourself with the blade all the time with an actual sword. Especially since it's very rare to be fighting something that can parry and duel you, since most people use blasters or vibroweapons that can be nearly sliced in two.

I mean, it's not like anyone wielding an actual sword in real life needed the help of some great energy field.

Actual swords aren't composed primarily of an extremely powerful magnetic field either.

There's also the problem of weight: sword blades have it, lightsaber blades don't. A closer analog would be swinging a flashlight around without allowing the beam to illuminate you.

[Fenrazer]

Force lightning worked just fine on Yoda and Windu, the best the 'light side' had to offer.

Yes, because bisecting them with a blade of liquid plasma is so much more humane.

I don't know why the Jedi don't just carry guns. The usual explanation is that they can use their super-fast reflexes and unerring aim to parry blaster-shots, but if both opponents have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, the guy with a gun still has a huge advantage. (Besides, if you have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, you could shoot five or six of your opponents before they even drew their weapons. A good offence is often the best defence.)

...Oh no! Star Wars doesn't make sense! *slaps hands on cheeks*


Which is what Anakin Solo does. Its very VERY pretty.

[Catch]

That choice was dictated to Salvatore from on high, and it served a good purpose - stories have a lot less tension if you know from the beginning that certain characters are guaranteed to survive, and Chewbacca's death served as a notice that the list of "can't die" characters had been shortened dramatically.

That's exactly my qualm here. The NJO series - especially during and after the Vong Invasion - tried to make EU into "serious" fiction, from source material that is, essentially, a science fiction folktale. Star Wars has always had camp, polarized morality, and generally high-spirited storylines. Around the release of the prequel trilogies and subsequent to them, EU writers seem to have decided that Star Wars fiction ought to grow up from its PG roots, and the best way to do so was a generous helping of genocide. Burn out a few planets, ravage the galaxy with a horrible alien menace even the Jedi can't stop and kill off an iconic-but-disposable original character, and suddenly Star Wars is serious'd to all hell. Oh wait, and turn one of the Solo twins into the new Sith lord. That'll show all the fairweather fans who laughed at Jar-Jar.

It's a tired metaphor, but I see the current trends of the EU as adolescent rebellion, acting tough and dressing in black because it pisses off Dad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_lucas). I won't argue that the writing is all terrible, because it's not, but with the advent of stories attempting to be heavily dramatic, the Star Wars universe has become terribly inconsistent (and not just in Force power levels, which is worth a whole 'nother thread). I cut my teeth on Stackpole's X-Wing novels, and to me, this whole family-murdering morally-relativistic series of escapades is a bit of an identity crisis for the Star Wars universe.

It isn't "wrong" per se, but it changes the rules of the game (especially, as Zevox pointed out in response to your post, since EU writers seem to have gotten the taste for blood). On the one hand, you have the Clone Wars animated series (both of them) as tame-for-TV Star Wars, and on the other, novels trying invalidate the constants of the universe. (Vergere's philosophy on the absence of a Dark Side of the Force was especially thought-provoking for me, especially after she was retconned to maintain the black-and-white Force.)

The problem I have, if I can be concise for once, is the contradictory nature of Star Wars fiction. The kid-stuff bumps shoulders with the grown-up books, because officially, both are canon and equally valid. How can these disharmonious stories co-exist?

[Ravens_cry]

How can these disharmonious stories co-exist?
I can answer that with one symbol on my keyboard:$

[Yulian]

Force lightning worked just fine on Yoda and Windu, the best the 'light side' had to offer.


Palpatine was supposed to be exceptionally powerful, and fueled by the "quicker, easier" Dark Side. He was pretty much the baddest Sith to have come along in a good long while. Note that Windu, while accomplished, was killed. Yoda survived.



I don't know why the Jedi don't just carry guns. The usual explanation is that they can use their super-fast reflexes and unerring aim to parry blaster-shots, but if both opponents have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, the guy with a gun still has a huge advantage. (Besides, if you have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, you could shoot five or six of your opponents before they even drew their weapons. A good offence is often the best defence.)


The movies all but outright stated it was a direct and conscious choice by the Jedi. You know, "A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age.".

Also, it does make sure that when Jedi make a choice to kill a being, they normally have to look them in the eyes when they do it. It makes every act of violence by a Jedi very personal, makes them consider that action moreso than shooting someone from a distance.

For Sith, it's like the Joker said in The Dark Knight about why he uses knives. Sith are normally sick and enjoy killing up-close and personal.

I will note Obi-Wan had no problems zapping the hell out of General Grevious though.

In Empire, Vader had to pause the swinging while he threw the inside of a room at Luke. That implied some level of concentration was required. He only took a few half-hearted swings at Luke during all that.

Also, and this is just my reasoning at work here, it makes a statement. Some being whips out a lightsaber in the middle of a fight and starts blocking blaster shots with it, you know, immediately, this person is a Force-user. That goes a long way towards creating instant respect/fear/etc..



On the one hand, you have the Clone Wars animated series (both of them) as tame-for-TV Star Wars, and on the other, novels trying invalidate the constants of the universe. (Vergere's philosophy on the absence of a Dark Side of the Force was especially thought-provoking for me, especially after she was retconned to maintain the black-and-white Force.)

The problem I have, if I can be concise for once, is the contradictory nature of Star Wars fiction. The kid-stuff bumps shoulders with the grown-up books, because officially, both are canon and equally valid. How can these disharmonious stories co-exist?

Vergere's argument made absolute, perfect sense. She took it to an extreme, since intent does actually matter, but the defining line should be blurry. Her "predatory animal" questioning was great, but she deliberately dodged even mentioning sadistic, purposeless injury and killing.

But the kid wasn't smart enough to ask "So, what about sadistically torturing a sentient being for nothing but your own pleasure? Is that the Dark Side?"

- Yulian

[Zevox]

Vergere's argument made absolute, perfect sense.
That it did. A shame they went and reestablished the whole bland light/dark side thing afterwards - Star Wars is much more interesting when using the version of the Force she articulated.


But the kid wasn't smart enough to ask "So, what about sadistically torturing a sentient being for nothing but your own pleasure? Is that the Dark Side?"
Er, under Vergere's explanation of the Force, no. That's you being a sadistic, messed-up bastard. That was the point of her explanations - there are no "sides" to the Force, there is only your own actions, and the aspects of you which cause you to take them.

Zevox

[Eddums]

Palpatine was supposed to be exceptionally powerful, and fueled by the "quicker, easier" Dark Side. He was pretty much the baddest Sith to have come along in a good long while. Note that Windu, while accomplished, was killed. Yoda survived.

Also note that Windu was winning, until he suffered the minor distraction of having his hand forcefully seperated from the rest of him. :smalltongue:

[ZeroNumerous]

Who? And what about the Thrawn books, or if you're okay with a bit more pulp, the X-Wing books?


the Thrawn books



Thrawn

F*** Thrawn.


Also note that Windu was winning, until he suffered the minor distraction of having his hand forcefully seperated from the rest of him. :smalltongue:

To be fair: Palpatine may or may not have been allowing him to win. Particularly since he did not use the Force prior to their duel.

EDIT:


Eh, I'd take the fall, better chance of survival.

Except, you know, you won't. Even if you somehow survive the fall, you are now laying at the bottom of a pit bleeding out from the multiple points where your bones have shattered and punctured your skin/internal organs. You will die. It will be slow, messy and painful. This is why Jedi neatly bisect people with superhot blades of plasma that burn out nerves and are almost always instantaneously lethal.

[Tavar]

F*** Thrawn.

So. I guess someone isn't a fan?

[ZeroNumerous]

So. I guess someone isn't a fan?

In the sense that the sun is hot or pluto is cold: Yes.

[Tavar]

Any particular reason? Hype Backlash?

[Eddums]

To be fair: Palpatine may or may not have been allowing him to win. Particularly since he did not use the Force prior to their duel.

True. However, all conjecture on who was allowing who to win is just that: conjecture.

But I conceed you make a valid point. :smallwink:

[Blayze]

If I can use "force push" on you, why can't you use "force push" to counteract it by pushing behind you?

Because you would be crushing your body and all its soft, vulnerable internal organs, your muscles and skeleton, between two Force Pushes.

[Revlid]

And this is why the only EU material I accept is Tag and Blink.
Okay, maybe Kotor, the old Clone Wars cartoon, and Republic Commando, but that's it.
Okay, I agree with you on those counts, but I include a number of the comics (Vader vs Maul in particular).
I also include the newer (inferior) Clone Wars cartoon. This is for three reasons.

1. It contains the only depiction of Jar Jar Binks in which he serves the purpose for which he was designed, i.e. good comic relief. ("Get the Jedi!")
2. Grievous already sucked in RotS, so I'm fine with just ignoring his appearances in this one, too.
3. Cad Bane and his compatriots are sex. His hat counts as a compatriot. And Lucas suggested him! The first solid design decision he's made in years.
4. Sooner or later, The Wesley is going to have to die. :belkar:

[Dr.Epic]

Because you would be crushing your body and all its soft, vulnerable internal organs, your muscles and skeleton, between two Force Pushes.

Well jumping through a window to grab onto a small floating droid and them fall a few hundred feet should result in death so stop being so thinky.

[Tavar]

Actually, in canon, you can block force push with force push. You don't place it behind you, though, you ram your push into the other push canceling the two forces out.

[Darklord Bright]

On a side note, I miss cartoon series Grievous and his unstoppable juggernaut tanking - even in the new animated series (Which takes place before he got his organs crushed by Mace Windu as he escaped with Palpatine, so he has no excuse) he's kinda lame.

Anyways, I bring it up because in that fight I vaguely recall he disarms the chick I can never remember the name of with the red skin and tentacle-head, and she blocks his next swing with the force and is sent flying. It's one of the only in-canon times this happens, but it's still cool because we don't see the Jedi do that kinda stuff often enough.

[SmartAlec]

The movies all but outright stated it was a direct and conscious choice by the Jedi. You know, "A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age.".

Also, it does make sure that when Jedi make a choice to kill a being, they normally have to look them in the eyes when they do it. It makes every act of violence by a Jedi very personal, makes them consider that action moreso than shooting someone from a distance.

For Sith, it's like the Joker said in The Dark Knight about why he uses knives. Sith are normally sick and enjoy killing up-close and personal.

"The Sith have evolved past the need for lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."
- Darth Sidious

As far as the Jedi go, there's another aspect to this lightsaber thing - lightsaber combat serves as part of their mental/physical discipline regime.


That it did. A shame they went and reestablished the whole bland light/dark side thing afterwards - Star Wars is much more interesting when using the version of the Force she articulated.

It wasn't Light/Dark in the beginning; that's a later thing. In the beginning, it's more like serenity/discord. I found that more interesting, because it meant the Jedi weren't necessarily bound by conventional good/evil morality. It was ok for them to do shady stuff like cheat at gambling (Qui-Gon) or stuff like browbeating people or even killing in the pursuit of their missions, as long as they kept a healthy amount of perspective and a serene state of mind about it.

That's the fun thing about the Jedi Code, it's based on contradiction and pragmatism. Be a pacifist, except when you have to fight. Be honest, except when you have to lie. Promote justice, but do not enforce it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Whats this about using the lightsaber without cutting yourself in half? It's seriously the most rediculous star wars idea I've ever heard, because apparently you wind up touching yourself with the blade all the time with an actual sword. Especially since it's very rare to be fighting something that can parry and duel you, since most people use blasters or vibroweapons that can be nearly sliced in two.

I mean, it's not like anyone wielding an actual sword in real life needed the help of some great energy field.

Well, there was one story of a guy cutting several inches into his arm because he tried to use a sharpened double edged European sword like a single edged katana...

A lightsaber is inherently more dangerous to use than a real sword because it has no edge and can cut equally well with every part of it.

Grievous has enhancements and computer chips to help him wield lightsabers. There are EU characters that don't, but whatever.


I don't know if there's ever been Force usage by Light or Dark that truly approaches that level of fine control and manipulation.

A self admittedly "bad at fine stuff" Jedi in the KotOR comic series manages to unscrew a section of wall by meditating for days.

[xhado123]

Whats this about using the lightsaber without cutting yourself in half? It's seriously the most rediculous star wars idea I've ever heard, because apparently you wind up touching yourself with the blade all the time with an actual sword. Especially since it's very rare to be fighting something that can parry and duel you, since most people use blasters or vibroweapons that can be nearly sliced in two.

I mean, it's not like anyone wielding an actual sword in real life needed the help of some great energy field.


True, but most swordsmen are using well made, well-balanced blades. This is not true for Lightsabers. As the name should imply, and the wookipedia article referenced above mentions, the blades are weightless. A weightless blade is really difficult to work with or even conceptualize working with. As a modern-day swordsman (Broadsword, Ken do, and Fencing (saber)) I can accept and appreciate the difficulty of using a Lightsaber. Grab a pen and fight someone with it, and pretend there is a blade protruding from the writing end. Block a few blaster shots, coming from all directions, and all angles. You need to be really, really aware in order to give the weapon enough reinforcement to parry a blow, conceptualize where your blade is to deflect blaster shots, etc, etc. The kind of concentration you can only get with the force.

[TruorTupnm]

Towards the subject of Jedi not employing the Force more often, in their fight scenes, I always wondered why they wouldn't be able to. They are said to be routinely using it for intuition, for parrying and such, and, as far as I can tell, all you need to do is concentrate to work the Force. Just dose yourself up on something to keep yourself serene and focused, then throw whatever you want at the dude. Or, even easier, just squish his brain. You don't have to be able to see it. It would be easy for pretty much any Force-user, I would think. Also, why don't Force-users employ mind-muddling powers to counteract the usual intuition thing that people use in lightsaber fights? Craziness.

Ah, and add another to the list of old school Star Wars fans. Only the original movies, and the books before the New Jedi Order.

[Mando Knight]

Grab a pen and fight someone with it, and pretend there is a blade protruding from the writing end.

Or for a closer match to the size and weight, a Wiimote.

[Darklord Bright]

To be fair: Palpatine may or may not have been allowing him to win. Particularly since he did not use the Force prior to their duel.


Actually, I believe it's stated somewhere that Mace Windu had a fight style that pretty much specialized on turning rage back at people, which is why he could deflect the force lightning back the way he did. He was completely capable of killing Palpatine right there.

[KnightDisciple]

Actually, I believe it's stated somewhere that Mace Windu had a fight style that pretty much specialized on turning rage back at people, which is why he could deflect the force lightning back the way he did. He was completely capable of killing Palpatine right there.Yeah. It was really only Little Orphan Annie who killed Windu at that point. Palpy may have had a chance if he had changed the game earlier on, but...

[chiasaur11]

Yeah. It was really only Little Orphan Annie who killed Windu at that point. Palpy may have had a chance if he had changed the game earlier on, but...

And another reason to hate Anakin Skywalker.

As if there weren't enough.

(Seriously, he's much more likable as Vader)

[Tavar]

And another reason to hate Anakin Skywalker.

As if there weren't enough.

(Seriously, he's much more likable as Vader)

Yeah. Smarter too.

"I have a vision of you dieing in childbirth!"
"Okay, let's schedule an appointment with the OB/GYN."
"Oh, okay. Cool."

[Yulian]

Getting back to lightsabers. I'd be really, really careful about fighting with a weightless beam. Heck, read any sci-fi wherein characters have access to monowire weapons. In Larry Niven's Known Space stuff (including Ringworld) variable swords (a monowire wrapped in a stasis field, able to be extended to dozens of feet) have a red ball at the tip so the user knows where it is, as the blade is essentially invisible. One little mistake turning a near-weightless object back towards yourself and you're dead. The flashlight analogy from before is perfect.

- Yulian

[SpiderMew]

I'm just rewatching the 6 Star Wars films, and something bugs me...

All the Jedi have these awesome force telekinetic powers that would be very handy in combat. However, you only see them use their powers rarely. Occasionally they choose to instead of destroying an enemy with their lightswords they knock them out against a wall or something, however they use it so sparingly that I'm even thinking it is used just enough time to remind us that they are able of doing other things then just wielding swords. Why don't they use it more often? Why doesn't Obi-Wan try to knock Darth Maul over the edge with the force? Why doesn't any of the Jedi try to knock their opponent off any of the 90000 bridges? Why don't they use these powers during combat more often?

Honestly, how unrealistic is it that anyone with telekinetic powers wouldn't use their powers ALL the time. Just look at Sylar (from the television series Heroes), he uses his powers for everything.

Not reading the other posts in this topic, im going to just answer the first post question.

Jedi dont go all Sylar and be telekentic junkies with their attacks because using the force is draning.
Ever play the star wars d20?
Using force powers drains your vitality. Bascily it sucks your HP to use it.
Now vitality and helth work a bit differntly in starwars d20 then in dnd, in starwars you get vitality and wounds.
Vitality is your bodys energy to dodge and do taxing things, and when that runs out damage goes to your wounds and you die quickly (critial hits go stright to wounds)
When you roll your hitdie every time you level it only rases your vitality, your wounds go up differntly and allt slowly, a high end character of mine only has 16 wound points, but 95 vitality. In big fights i go though vitality allot because i do like to go sylar on my enemys. See i get arround gaining darkside points by moving people by their clothing and armor or moving large objects like fallen trees into a mass of enemys. Using move person to attack is a darkside move, but using move object is light side. Most jedi dont realize that they can move the things people are wearing to cause them to be moved, like their shoes or pants are good choices. (if your going to ever fight a jedi who can think outside of the box like i do, make sure you have rip-away clothing, even your underpants, so you can force him to take darkside points or force him to re-think his strategy)

To summerize: Move person causes build up of darkside energy, and to use other things to attack people teleketicly or to move their armor and clothing causts allot of personal energy and willpower to use. You only see very high level jedi like Yoda and Mace Windu using allot of telekentic powers because they have allot of vitality to spend.

[Rama]

Yeah. It was really only Little Orphan Annie who killed Windu at that point. Palpy may have had a chance if he had changed the game earlier on, but...

Getting a little off topic, and bearing in mind my knowledge beyond the movies is sketchy, but the impression I god during RotS was that Palpatine was deliberately delaying/losing the fight to force Anakin to act against Windu. To make him fall - a calculated gamble. He planned everything else so carefully, and since he'd interacted enough with the Jedi I'd have to assume he had significant knowledge of his enemy. Beyond artistic license, doesn't seem reasonable that he wouldn't have a contingency plan against Windu if he couldn't beat him straight up.

Or is that addressed in another source?

[SpiderMew]

Palpy was totaly playing mace and anny for a chump.

the lightinging didnt even hurt his face like it looked, thats what his face really was like, the clean face was an illusion. It was his trap to bring skywalker to the darkside.

[Mando Knight]

"I have a vision of you dieing in childbirth!"
"Okay, let's schedule an appointment with the OB/GYN."

"NO! I have to have all those teenage angsty moments that are supposed to make me relatable because Obi-Wan and Yoda just have me meditate when I get moody!" :smallamused::smalltongue:

[Tavar]

Palpy was totaly playing mace and anny for a chump.

the lightinging didnt even hurt his face like it looked, thats what his face really was like, the clean face was an illusion. It was his trap to bring skywalker to the darkside.

I don't know. I've heard that Mace actually could have beaten him.

[SmartAlec]

Getting a little off topic, and bearing in mind my knowledge beyond the movies is sketchy, but the impression I god during RotS was that Palpatine was deliberately delaying/losing the fight to force Anakin to act against Windu. To make him fall - a calculated gamble. He planned everything else so carefully, and since he'd interacted enough with the Jedi I'd have to assume he had significant knowledge of his enemy. Beyond artistic license, doesn't seem reasonable that he wouldn't have a contingency plan against Windu if he couldn't beat him straight up.

Or is that addressed in another source?

Could easily have been both; that Palpatine intended to fight a delaying fight until Mace turned up, but he ended up underestimating Mace and it was only luck that Skywalker turned up when he did.

[chiasaur11]

Palpy was totaly playing mace and anny for a chump.

the lightinging didnt even hurt his face like it looked, thats what his face really was like, the clean face was an illusion. It was his trap to bring skywalker to the darkside.

That makes everyone involved even dumber.

And Anakin's whole "Mace is deflecting the lightning Palpatine is shooting away from his own face which, coincidentally, zaps Palpatine. OBVIOUSLY, Mace is being evil and sadistic rather than, you know, defending himself from psycho McMurdermuch." makes everyone but Mace look pretty dumb to start with.

[Sholos]

Jedi dont go all Sylar and be telekentic junkies with their attacks because using the force is draning.
Ever play the star wars d20?
Using force powers drains your vitality. Bascily it sucks your HP to use it.
Now vitality and helth work a bit differntly in starwars d20 then in dnd, in starwars you get vitality and wounds.
Vitality is your bodys energy to dodge and do taxing things, and when that runs out damage goes to your wounds and you die quickly (critial hits go stright to wounds)
When you roll your hitdie every time you level it only rases your vitality, your wounds go up differntly and allt slowly, a high end character of mine only has 16 wound points, but 95 vitality. In big fights i go though vitality allot because i do like to go sylar on my enemys. See i get arround gaining darkside points by moving people by their clothing and armor or moving large objects like fallen trees into a mass of enemys. Using move person to attack is a darkside move, but using move object is light side. Most jedi dont realize that they can move the things people are wearing to cause them to be moved, like their shoes or pants are good choices. (if your going to ever fight a jedi who can think outside of the box like i do, make sure you have rip-away clothing, even your underpants, so you can force him to take darkside points or force him to re-think his strategy)

I'm not sure we can apply game mechanics to the world.

Off-topic: That is an extremely rules-lawyery way of looking at those powers. You're lucky to have a GM that okays it.

[Ravens_cry]

Getting back to lightsabers. I'd be really, really careful about fighting with a weightless beam. Heck, read any sci-fi wherein characters have access to monowire weapons. In Larry Niven's Known Space stuff (including Ringworld) variable swords (a monowire wrapped in a stasis field, able to be extended to dozens of feet) have a red ball at the tip so the user knows where it is, as the blade is essentially invisible. One little mistake turning a near-weightless object back towards yourself and you're dead. The flashlight analogy from before is perfect.

- Yulian
A lightsabre isn't dozens of feet long, and is glowing some colour. While certainly a tricky blade to use, let alone master, but hardly sounds physically impossible. In Medieval times, serious training accidents with metal blades would be equally fatal.

[Texas_Ben]

A lightsabre isn't dozens of feet long, and is glowing some colour. While certainly a tricky blade to use, let alone master, but hardly sounds physically impossible. In Medieval times, serious training accidents with metal blades would be equally fatal.

It's not so much that you can't see it, as the lack of any weight or resistance to the blade means it's very difficult to judge it's position. So unless you're extremely practiced, it's going to be dangerous for your to use it.

And there's no way a metal sword is going to inflict anywhere near the same amount of damage as a lightsaber. Training accidents with swords? Concussions, wrenched joints, maybe a broken bone or two. Training accidents with lightsabers? Lopped off limbs, bisection, decapitation, etc.

[Ravens_cry]

It's not so much that you can't see it, as the lack of any weight or resistance to the blade means it's very difficult to judge it's position. So unless you're extremely practiced, it's going to be dangerous for your to use it.

And there's no way a metal sword is going to inflict anywhere near the same amount of damage as a lightsaber. Training accidents with swords? Concussions, wrenched joints, maybe a broken bone or two. Training accidents with lightsabers? Lopped off limbs, bisection, decapitation, etc.
In a world without proper medicine, infection, though taking far longer, would kill you just as dead as decapitation. With a light sabre, sure, you may lose a limb, but with bacta and other advanced medical technology, surely such things are less dangerous to actually remaining an living state?
And you don't start out with a lightsabre, a simple hologram from a projector in a handle would provide practise with a weightless blade. Now, tricks like blocking blaster bolts and such probably require superhuman Jedi reflexes, so a non Force sensitive light-sabre user is still at a disadvantage, for the same reasons blades fell out of favour compared to range weapons.
But there is at least EU evidence of non-Force users (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil) using weapons derived from lightsabres.

[SpiderMew]

I'm not sure we can apply game mechanics to the world.

Off-topic: That is an extremely rules-lawyery way of looking at those powers. You're lucky to have a GM that okays it.

Ive had use of the power ok'ed by super obsessive fan's who are the starwars equilalent of treckers.

And the whole useing your vitality thing was only ment to kind of compare to how draning uisng the force really is.


I don't know. I've heard that Mace actually could have beaten him. Mace isnt as strong as Yoda, and Yoda couldnt beet him.

[hamishspence]

Mace is closer to the dark side than Yoda- his lightsaber style requires him to make much more use of his anger than is normal for Jedi- and it gives him a certain resistance.

Thus, while Yoda is more powerful overall, Mace is slightly better in this kind of situation.

That said, the question of whether Palpatine was using Sith Alchemy or the force to mask his true appearence, isn't entirely clear.

However- Wookieepedia does suggest Sith Alchemy may have masked his appearence- and the effect of lightning on him, was both physical damage, and the destruction of the mask;

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine

So, if he was using alchemy, his own lightning both ruined the "mask" and left him with a permanently damaged face.

His "I am too weak" thing was obviously fake (shown when he blasts Mace out of the window) but losing to Mace may not have been entirely faked.

[Texas_Ben]

In a world without proper medicine, infection, though taking far longer, would kill you just as dead as decapitation. With a light sabre, sure, you may lose a limb, but with bacta and other advanced medical technology, surely such things are less dangerous to actually remaining an living state?

Exept that training inuries were rare and mostly consisting of, as I said, concussions and injured joints, which aren't life-threatening, even without modern medical care.

Everything I have seen/read have jedi training with real lightsabers.

[KnightDisciple]

Mace is closer to the dark side than Yoda- his lightsaber style requires him to make much more use of his anger than is normal for Jedi- and it gives him a certain resistance.

Thus, while Yoda is more powerful overall, Mace is slightly better in this kind of situation.

That said, the question of whether Palpatine was using Sith Alchemy or the force to mask his true appearence, isn't entirely clear.

However- Wookieepedia does suggest Sith Alchemy may have masked his appearence- and the effect of lightning on him, was both physical damage, and the destruction of the mask;

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine

So, if he was using alchemy, his own lightning both ruined the "mask" and left him with a permanently damaged face.

His "I am too weak" thing was obviously fake (shown when he blasts Mace out of the window) but losing to Mace may not have been entirely faked.Yeah, I think the middle-ground answer on the "mask" is best.

And yeah; my original point was that if Palpatine had gone into the fight with Mace with the express intent to win the conflict (rather than keeping it stalled until Little Orphan Annie got there for the bit "oh I'm so weak" ploy), it might have gone better. Might.

A lot of literature suggests that Mace's style of fighting was pretty much the best Sith-killing style out there (reference is made to a "superconducting loop"). The problem was that Mace was the only one who seemed able to use it without falling himself.

So, that all said, Mace vs. Palpy is a toss-up, in my mind. Outside interference is what won the day for sure.

[SpiderMew]

Exept that training inuries were rare and mostly consisting of, as I said, concussions and injured joints, which aren't life-threatening, even without modern medical care.

Everything I have seen/read have jedi training with real lightsabers.

Jedi train with real lightsabers, but they use ones that have a non leathal setting. Its a shock setting. When they learn not to hit themselfs then they move on to the combat sabers.

[Ravens_cry]

Exept that training inuries were rare and mostly consisting of, as I said, concussions and injured joints, which aren't life-threatening, even without modern medical care.

Everything I have seen/read have jedi training with real lightsabers.
When your training with blunt or wooden swords, yes.
Just like Jedi wiwould train with non-lethal lighsabres, as SpiderMew said. No reason a non Force user couldn't do the same thing. You may not be able to be nearly as acrobatic as a Jedi , but you will still have some skills, and you are not going to lop your own head off anymore then a knight is.

[hamishspence]

If I recall, Boba Fett (a non-force user) ends up duelling Vader with a lightsaber in some of the comics (and not ones written by Karen Traviss)

But then- it's Fett.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If I recall, Boba Fett (a non-force user) ends up duelling Vader with a lightsaber in some of the comics (and not ones written by Karen Traviss)

But then- it's Fett.

That's a dubiously canon comic and regardless, Fett is defeated easily.

Unambuously canon non-force sensitive lightsaber uses are dime a dozen however.

[Liffguard]

The reason only Jedi use lightsabers has nothing to do with non-force users being a danger to themselves if they wield them. Or rather, that's a secondary issue.

The reason is that a lightsaber is a sword. It's a good sword, very light, very fast and with a perfect edge. But it's ultimately just a sword in a world of guns. Using the force makes it a viable weapon by enabling deflection. Without the force then a blaster is far more effective. Especially since training to use a lightsaber safely would take years (and you still wouldn't be as good as a jedi) whereas training to use a blaster effectively would take days.

[horngeek]

Incidentally, my answer to the OP:

Offensive use of the force is against the Jedi creed (one of the RPG's says it's like forcing a man to cut open one of his veins, since the force comes from life- which would be why using it as a weapon against droids isn't as bad.) and cutting a man's HEAD open is an offensive use if I ever saw one.

[Yulian]

Using move person to attack is a darkside move, but using move object is light side.

Okay, I just have to mention that this "toss by clothing" thing is so stupid and requires such rules-lawyering to work, that it belongs in Murphy's Rules.

It also really highlights the utterly nonsensical hair-splitting of Light versus Dark Side. So I could sweep an enemy off a cliff with a tree, or do it by hand, but I can't directly toss him over a cliff with the Force if I'm a Jedi or risk corruption? So the tool you use matters that much regardless of an identical result?

Really? I mean, really? Hate to say it, but your obsessive friends are indeed, totally rules-lawyering without even touching any internal logic to this.

Back to topic.



Now, tricks like blocking blaster bolts and such probably require superhuman Jedi reflexes, so a non Force sensitive light-sabre user is still at a disadvantage, for the same reasons blades fell out of favour compared to range weapons.


That's a bit of the point. If you are not a Force-user, then you are subject to all those disadvantages. So learning to use a lightsaber without actually being able to parry blaster bolts wouldn't be of that much value.

Oh, and GURPS figured out a "better" way for that to work than having reflexes faster than an energy weapon. Their own version of that skill is called "Precognitive Parry". Think of it like Spider-Sense with an energy sword. Since Force-users are so big of foresight and junk, think of it as knowing where to move the blade an instant before someone fires the shot.

It's like sinanju from the Remo Williams stuff. They don't dodge bullets, they move before the trigger is squeezed.

- Yulian

[SpiderMew]

Im fine with rules lawyering when i can make it work to my advantage ingame

[Thrawn183]

Well, to return to the question posed by the OP, Zahn does a good job in the Hand of Thrawn novels of addressing the whole power usage issue. Namely that Jedi listen to the force for guidance. It's often a lot more useful to have a Jedi in just the right place at the right time rather than a Jedi wrecking people's **** in the wrong place.

Supposedly a Jedi that uses their abilities too actively instead of passively loses some of their ability to be guided by the force.

This makes the whole Sith battle meditation deal make no sense at all, but I'm ok with that :smallcool:.

[Ravens_cry]

Back to topic.



That's a bit of the point. If you are not a Force-user, then you are subject to all those disadvantages. So learning to use a lightsaber without actually being able to parry blaster bolts wouldn't be of that much value.

Oh, and GURPS figured out a "better" way for that to work than having reflexes faster than an energy weapon. Their own version of that skill is called "Precognitive Parry". Think of it like Spider-Sense with an energy sword. Since Force-users are so big of foresight and junk, think of it as knowing where to move the blade an instant before someone fires the shot.

It's like sinanju from the Remo Williams stuff. They don't dodge bullets, they move before the trigger is squeezed.

- Yulian

I am not saying it is the most practical weapon, though those blaster bolts fly pretty slowly by bullet standards, and I have seen people dodge arrows.
But I do disagree with the whole (not saying you said this) "any non-force user would chop thier own head off!" idea, any more then a knight would.

[Xondoure]

Force lightning worked just fine on Yoda and Windu, the best the 'light side' had to offer.

Yes, because bisecting them with a blade of liquid plasma is so much more humane.

I don't know why the Jedi don't just carry guns. The usual explanation is that they can use their super-fast reflexes and unerring aim to parry blaster-shots, but if both opponents have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, the guy with a gun still has a huge advantage. (Besides, if you have super-fast reflexes and unerring aim, you could shoot five or six of your opponents before they even drew their weapons. A good offence is often the best defence.)

...Oh no! Star Wars doesn't make sense! *slaps hands on cheeks*

Because a lightsaber is as much a shield as it is a sword. It's easier to use your reflexes to move a blade in front of a shot than to accurately fire at the shot.

[Yulian]

But I do disagree with the whole (not saying you said this) "any non-force user would chop thier own head off!" idea, any more then a knight would.

I wouldn't say it's a huge deal, but it could happen, as even the lightest touch with the lightsaber will burn you. Of course, the crap double-blade users pull...that would be lethal. Staffs touch the user all the time.

There's nothing stating why Han couldn't use it to cut a straight line, but I'd doubt he'd even try using one in a fight.

- Yulian

[SpiderMew]

Non force users can use lightsabers, they just dont usualy, most perfer blasters. Look at Grievous, ive read nothing that would suggest he was ever a foce user, even before his massive cybernetic upgrade.

[Emperor Ing]

But let's face it, even though some non force users can use lightsabers, they are unique weapons in more than just they are laser swords. A non force using individual who is ridiculously skilled with a vibroblade might find using a lightsaber to be difficult to even hold let alone use in battle, meanwhile a vibroblade doesn't have the benefit of being able to cut through just about every material. I also doubt many of the best duelists in the galaxy would be fast enough to block incoming blaster shots.

[thubby]

my understanding is that jedi are more conduits of the force than users. they do what the force tells them, and if it doesn't say "fling them at a wall" they don't.

the sith, well, they very often do just walk in and stark smacking people into walls.

and has been demonstrated, 2 jedi/sith getting into a force fight is rather pointless, forcing both sides into close combat.

[Oslecamo]

Non force users can use lightsabers, they just dont usualy, most perfer blasters. Look at Grievous, ive read nothing that would suggest he was ever a foce user, even before his massive cybernetic upgrade.

As already pointed out several times, Grievous is the exception, not the rule. He was literally custom-built to use lightsabers, and then extensively trained by a sith on that art. He may not be a force user, but he certainly isn't your average warrior either.

[SpiderMew]

As already pointed out several times, Grievous is the exception, not the rule. He was literally custom-built to use lightsabers, and then extensively trained by a sith on that art. He may not be a force user, but he certainly isn't your average warrior either.

Well you do have to train to not kill/hurt yourself with the weapon, but that can be said for any weapon in all of history.

[Liffguard]

Well you do have to train to not kill/hurt yourself with the weapon, but that can be said for any weapon in all of history.

But, as has been pointed out, it's exceptionally easy to hurt yourself with a lightsaber. The lack of a weighted blade means it's difficult to intuitively feel where the blade is and even the lightest touch will cut through flesh with no resistance. Sure, a non-force user could learn to use one if they were patient and careful but it hardly seems worth the bother.

[Oslecamo]

Well you do have to train to not kill/hurt yourself with the weapon, but that can be said for any weapon in all of history.

Some weapons are easier to hurt yourself than others.

A spear for example, arguably the most used weapon before gunpowder apeared. As long as you're pointing the pointy stick to the enemy it's pretty hard to mess it up.

Gunpowder weapons were pretty dangerous in the begginning, but as security measures were developed, nowadays it's much easier to kill something else with a gun than kill yourself, meaning it became the new default weapon for our armies.

A lightsaber? 90% of the weapon will cut you. There's a very small "safe" handle. And not only the lack of weight makes it very very easy to swing that dangerous zone towards yourself, the magnetic field used to keep the plasma in makes the blade move by itself in an unpredtictable manner. So yeah good luck not slicing yourself.

[Tavar]

Can you give any evidence that the magnetic field makes it unpredictable?

[Mewtarthio]

Plus, y'know, why would you want to go through all that trouble? You don't have Force precognition, so you can't deflect blaster bolts. You're basically running around with a giant knife in a gunfight. The only reason I can think of is you're learning it for use as an entertainer, which would be borderline blasphemous when the Jedi are in power and downright suicidal when the Sith are in control.

[The Big Dice]

Can you give any evidence that the magnetic field makes it unpredictable?

In the DVD commentary for Star Wars, George Lucas talks about how his original idea for lightsabers was that they weighed like, 40 pounds and were incredibly hard to control because of the amount of enegy running through one. Other stuff is simply EU supposition, and I'm inclined to think that the EU is just after your money and written by authors who just want their name in print so they can get paid and hopefully get their original material published. But I'm cynical like that.

As for the Dark/Light Side split, that's purely an EU construct. According to GL, there is only the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

[Oslecamo]

Can you give any evidence that the magnetic field makes it unpredictable?

I had first readed it on some of the extra material released for SW, but the wiki seems to support me as well:

Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

EDIT:


Plus, y'know, why would you want to go through all that trouble? You don't have Force precognition, so you can't deflect blaster bolts. You're basically running around with a giant knife in a gunfight.

Actualy, by cannon in the SW universe there were developed personal energy fields that greatly reduce the power of blaster shots, but don't do anything to stop melee weapons. So aparently bringing a knive to a gunfight is quite viable in SWverse! And if it's a laser knive able to cut trough armored doors and blaster-proof armor (like the mandalorians use) so much the better!

[Tavar]

Ah, thanks Oslecamo. Still, that isn't saying you can't use one without the force, just that you need to be trained to do so.


In the DVD commentary for Star Wars, George Lucas talks about how his original idea for lightsabers was that they weighed like, 40 pounds and were incredibly hard to control because of the amount of enegy running through one.

HIs original idea. As in, his idea before he changed his mind.

[Oslecamo]

Ah, thanks Oslecamo. Still, that isn't saying you can't use one without the force, just that you need to be trained to do so.


The line after the one I posted says the following:

However, in the hands of an expert of the Force, the lightsaber was a weapon to be greatly respected and feared. To wield a lightsaber was to demonstrate incredible skill and confidence, as well as masterful dexterity and attunement to the Force.

So, in theory a normal dude could learn how to safely wield a lightsaber... If he dedicated his whole life to it and had really good senses. From my reading, being able to use the force helps a LOT learning how to control a lightsaber.

Basically, it's like saying that a blind guy can be taught how to use a gun. Yes he can, but being able to actualy see makes it much much easier.

[Dienekes]

So, in theory a normal dude could learn how to safely wield a lightsaber... If he dedicated his whole life to it and had really good senses. From my reading, being able to use the force helps a LOT learning how to control a lightsaber.

Basically, it's like saying that a blind guy can be taught how to use a gun. Yes he can, but being able to actualy see makes it much much easier.

Unless you're Boba Fett, then you can fight Darth Vader to a standstill using lightsabers apparently.
Dienekes mumbles about crazy EU

[Oslecamo]

Unless you're Boba Fett, then you can fight Darth Vader to a standstill using lightsabers apparently.
Dienekes mumbles about crazy EU

Must have been some disguised Sith, because I remember a EU story where Fett and Vader duke it out(lightsaber vs guns), and Boba gets his ass handed to him, only escaping because they were fighting for a precious artifact, and Fett throws said artifact into a magma vein, forcing Vader to focus his concentration in recovering it whitout destroying it. And even when Vader is when his back turned and focused on something else, Boba decides trying a backshot it's not worth the risk and runs away.

[Mewtarthio]

As for the Dark/Light Side split, that's purely an EU construct. According to GL, there is only the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

*shrug* That's not so bad. The EU basically just made up the term "Light Side of the Force" to mean "the natural, uncorrupted Force."

[Dienekes]

Must have been some disguised Sith, because I remember a EU story where Fett and Vader duke it out(lightsaber vs guns), and Boba gets his ass handed to him, only escaping because they were fighting for a precious artifact, and Fett throws said artifact into a magma vein, forcing Vader to focus his concentration in recovering it whitout destroying it. And even when Vader is when his back turned and focused on something else, Boba decides trying a backshot it's not worth the risk and runs away.

Different story, different author, and the sliding scale of Boba Fett awesome.

[Ravens_cry]

Some weapons are easier to hurt yourself than others.

A spear for example, arguably the most used weapon before gunpowder apeared. As long as you're pointing the pointy stick to the enemy it's pretty hard to mess it up.

Gunpowder weapons were pretty dangerous in the begginning, but as security measures were developed, nowadays it's much easier to kill something else with a gun than kill yourself, meaning it became the new default weapon for our armies.

A lightsaber? 90% of the weapon will cut you. There's a very small "safe" handle. And not only the lack of weight makes it very very easy to swing that dangerous zone towards yourself, the magnetic field used to keep the plasma in makes the blade move by itself in an unpredtictable manner. So yeah good luck not slicing yourself.
There is a weapon called a double edged sword. It als has a very limited safe handle. A bit better then the a light sabre, there is a the flat of the blade, but cutting yourself wouldn't take much effort even still.
Also, if your really worried, there is materials in the EU that block lightsabres.
A suit woven of such materials (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik) would protect you from your own stupidity.
Yes, it's expensive, but it is doable.

[Oslecamo]

There is a weapon called a double edged sword. It als has a very limited safe handle. A bit better then the a light sabre, there is a the flat of the blade, but cutting yourself wouldn't take much effort even still.

I believe that's why they call any weapon that you're prone to cut yourself with a "double edged sword".

And even then, it's still just two edges. A lightsaber can hurt you from any side. Heck, it can probably burn you just by grazing!



Also, if your really worried, there is materials in the EU that block lightsabres.
A suit woven of such materials (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phrik) would protect you from your own stupidity.
Yes, it's expensive, but it is doable.

I was aware of that. So now I must point out both jedi and sith campaigned hard to restrict acess to all those fancy materials. Geting them would mean having an army of pre-cog zealots after your head.

[Ravens_cry]

I believe that's why they call any weapon that you're prone to cut yourself with a "double edged sword".

And even then, it's still just two edges. A lightsaber can hurt you from any side.

That jsut means you are still more careful. I am not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but it doesn't sound impossible, and there is EU refferance to such weapons been used by non force users. And I don't mean Grievous, I mean lightfoils (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil). And EU is canon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe), if secondary to the moves.

Heck, it can probably burn you just by grazing!
If it did that, then you wouldn't even be able to hold the handle, Jedi or not.


I was aware of that. So now I must point out both jedi and sith campaigned hard to restrict acess to all those fancy materials. Geting them would mean having an army of pre-cog zealots after your head.
Depending on what time in the SW universe, like the films (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Original_trilogy), you are doing this, there is hardly an army of either.

[thubby]

speaking of anti-lightsaber armor. why aren't the sith dressed head-to-toe in the stuff? or at least the bigwigs?
makes fine threaded shirts out of it or something if you have to, because it instantly screws anyone with a lightsaber!

[The Big Dice]

That jsut means you are still more careful. I am not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but it doesn't sound impossible, and there is EU refferance to such weapons been used by non force users. And I don't mean Grievous, I mean lightfoils (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil). And EU is canon (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe), if secondary to the moves.
Well, the EU is canon, apart from this by GL (from the linke page)


"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
―George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337[src]
In other words, it's canon unless GL decides to unknowingly rewrite it.

[Ravens_cry]

speaking of anti-lightsaber armor. why aren't the sith dressed head-to-toe in the stuff? or at least the bigwigs?
makes fine threaded shirts out of it or something if you have to, because it instantly screws anyone with a lightsaber!
Same reason the Storm Troopers can't hit the broad side of a space slug, dramatic imperative, the heroes must win.


Well, the EU is canon, apart from this by GL (from the linke page)


"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
―George Lucas, from an interview in Starlog #337[src]
In other words, it's canon unless GL decides to unknowingly rewrite it.
There you have it folks, lightsabre derived weapons use by people who don't use the force (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil) is canon.

[Oslecamo]

Depending on what time in the SW universe, like the films, you are doing this, there is hardly an army of either.

Well, funny thing is, Palpatine had declared lightsabers illegal so the local stormtroopers would hunt you down anyway.:smallwink:




There you have it folks, lightsabre derived weapons use by people who don't use the force (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightfoil) is canon.

Hmm, it says right there that lightfoils are weapons considerably inferior to lightsabers and that's why any dude can use them.:smallsigh:

[Ravens_cry]

Well, funny thing is, Palpatine had declared lightsabers illegal so the local stormtroopers would hunt you down anyway.:smallwink:

I am a hero, no way those guys can hit me!




Hmm, it says right there that lightfoils are weapons considerably inferior to lightsabers and that's why any dude can use them.:smallsigh:
They are weapon that can still slice from any angle with a weightless blade. It probably doesn't matter if a light brush will cut your head clean off or only 1/4 off, it's still a Not Good Thing.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Actualy, by cannon in the SW universe there were developed personal energy fields that greatly reduce the power of blaster shots, but don't do anything to stop melee weapons. So aparently bringing a knive to a gunfight is quite viable in SWverse! And if it's a laser knive able to cut trough armored doors and blaster-proof armor (like the mandalorians use) so much the better!

Except that those shields protect against lightsabers just as easily and need actual physical blades to bypass.


speaking of anti-lightsaber armor. why aren't the sith dressed head-to-toe in the stuff? or at least the bigwigs?
makes fine threaded shirts out of it or something if you have to, because it instantly screws anyone with a lightsaber!

They are.

Darth Vader's armour is stated to contain the stuff, which is a retcon for how he survives several grazing blows in the OT.

The Confederacy during the Clone Wars attempted to mass produce cortosis battle droids.

Cortosis lined swords were mass produced during the Jedi Civil War.

However, most Sith prefer not to be weighed down by armour, just like most Jedi.

[Frozen_Feet]

If it did that, then you wouldn't even be able to hold the handle, Jedi or not.


Ever held a welding torch? The handle is perfectly cool and safe to hold, even though the flame can scorch you if you point it at yourself for a second. That's how the lightsabers are, too - the heat of the plasma is directed outward, meaning the handle is cool and safe to wield. You'll still get yourself scorched if the blade touches you.

[SmartAlec]

*shrug* That's not so bad. The EU basically just made up the term "Light Side of the Force" to mean "the natural, uncorrupted Force."

Thing is, the term 'Light Side' is easy to misinterpret as a 'power of goodness' to oppose the 'darkness'. It suggests a yin-yang, a two-sided Force where the Dark Side is supposed to exist (it's not). KOTOR 1 went that route, with the Jedi responses being more Lawful-Good than anything else. Some of the EU novels also go that way. It's all a bit muddled.

As far as lightsabers go, I remember reading somewhere that they have gyroscopes built into the handles or something to help with all those twirls. That can't help make them any easier to use.

[Thrawn183]

Really I don't understand why people don't wear a shirt with particular optical properties able to be picked up by a specifically tuned camera. Just attach little mini-cameras to the lightsaber (pointing up the blade) and have the lightsaber automatically shut off when the camera detects your clothes.

[thubby]

Really I don't understand why people don't wear a shirt with particular optical properties able to be picked up by a specifically tuned camera. Just attach little mini-cameras to the lightsaber (pointing up the blade) and have the lightsaber automatically shut off when the camera detects your clothes.

considering the fidelity of cameras in the SW universe...

[chiasaur11]

I think what we all can take away from this is simple.

Boss could kick any Jedi's ass. Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

[Yulian]

Really I don't understand why people don't wear a shirt with particular optical properties able to be picked up by a specifically tuned camera. Just attach little mini-cameras to the lightsaber (pointing up the blade) and have the lightsaber automatically shut off when the camera detects your clothes.

In the EU there's a guy like this.

Lemme see...ah, this jerk: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Irek_Ismaren


To save him, his mother placed him in stasis. While in stasis, he was fitted with six lightsabers, one in each knee and elbow and also in his wrists. These lightsabers could not hurt him, because they shut off upon contact with him.

Probably power intensive or something. I dunno.

- Yulian