PDA

View Full Version : Chess challenge



GoblinGilmartin
2010-06-23, 01:55 PM
I have a great idea for a puzzle challenge for use in any dnd game.
It involves an 8x10 room, where the top is a full scale 8x8 chessboardNear the entrance, an identical chessboard stands on a pedestal, with pieces in the exact positions of the med sized ones on the large board filling the room.
The twist: the PC's must play a chess game with an invisible npc, clearing a navigable path across the room (when you start out, the pieces are already in mid-game, blocking any way through)

suggestions and comments accepted

Optimystik
2010-06-23, 01:59 PM
If the pieces themselves are trapping the players, what is stopping them from playing for a little while, killing as many of both sides through attrition as they can, then leaving early once the way is clear without a checkmate?

arguskos
2010-06-23, 02:01 PM
If the pieces themselves are trapping the players, what is stopping them from playing for a little while, killing as many of both sides through attrition as they can, then leaving early once the way is clear without a checkmate?
Perhaps the other team cheats, and the King can resurrect their own pieces if the PCs attempt to leave without a checkmate? That'd be an awesome twist on the game, forcing a checkmate to be played out, or at least forcing the players to try and kill off the king somehow.

Totally Guy
2010-06-23, 02:09 PM
Maybe the exit is in fact a trap door beneath one of the NPC's occupied tiles. The trick would be to force the NPC to move that particular piece.

The NPC plays chess as you would but is irrationally determined not to move the piece on that tile. Even going as far as to firmly defend the square over more rational choices.

Of course if the players take the piece the npc can take theirs and the square remains occupied the whole time.

You might choose to have the tile be the wrong colour for a major clue. Or keep it a secret and have the NPC's bizarre compulsion to defend the square as the clue.

Akal Saris
2010-06-23, 02:13 PM
Sounds like a great puzzle! I might just use it myself :)

I had chess game challenges a few times before in much older D&D games, where the PCs would have to do a gauntlet with a combat, a thinking game, and a test of skill, so my players would get a bit of a nostalgia high off of it as well.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 02:13 PM
That seems to be the intention...


clearing a navigable path across the room

Well, it will only work if the figures are large and are packed together so you can't squeeze through most of the party and you can't go over...

Putting a king over the exit and the NPC not moving it unless under check and no other solution exists could make the puzzle a bit longer... What happens if the PCs fail?

nedz
2010-06-23, 02:15 PM
Another idea:
Only by forcing a checkmate can the exit be found since the mated king will then transform into a portal of some kind.
This gives two possible exits dependant upon who wins.

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 02:16 PM
I suggest playing with a chess variant, like Atomic Chess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_chess), rather than the game itself. This has 3 advantages:
1. Neither side will be extremely skilled at Atomic Chess, so it won't feel like a contest of player skill rather than character ability;
2. It won't take nearly as long;
3. Your characters will be really surprised the first time an explosion goes off. Especially if you RP it like an actual explosion.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-23, 02:17 PM
If the pieces themselves are trapping the players, what is stopping them from playing for a little while, killing as many of both sides through attrition as they can, then leaving early once the way is clear without a checkmate?

If the other side plays perfectly (and a $20 program running on an average laptop is capable of playing, by the standards of an average amateur, a near-perfect game), the PCs may find it very challenging to even survive to the endgame.

So, yes, the idea of pieces blocking the exit and the PCs needing to exchange off as many pieces as possible while postponing the loss is quite challenging against the right opposition.

And remember, the DM is perfectly justified in using a chess program, since it represents the superior intellect and skill of the NPC.

wykydtron
2010-06-23, 02:20 PM
I have a great idea for a puzzle challenge for use in any dnd game.
It involves an 8x10 room, where the top is a full scale 8x8 chessboardNear the entrance, an identical chessboard stands on a pedestal, with pieces in the exact positions of the med sized ones on the large board filling the room.
The twist: the PC's must play a chess game with an invisible npc, clearing a navigable path across the room (when you start out, the pieces are already in mid-game, blocking any way through)


I'm 90% sure this was done in some Harry Potter book or other. I'm thinking Chamber of Secrets but I could be wrong.

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 02:21 PM
If the other side plays perfectly (and a $20 program running on an average laptop is capable of playing, by the standards of an average amateur, a near-perfect game), the PCs may find it very challenging to even survive to the endgame.

If you're paying $20 for a chess engine that can dominate the average amateur, you're getting ripped off. :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-06-23, 02:22 PM
I suggest playing with a chess variant, like Atomic Chess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_chess), rather than the game itself. This has 3 advantages:
1. Neither side will be extremely skilled at Atomic Chess, so it won't feel like a contest of player skill rather than character ability;
2. It won't take nearly as long;
3. Your characters will be really surprised the first time an explosion goes off. Especially if you RP it like an actual explosion.
Bughouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bughouse_chess) atomic chess! :smallamused:

Ormagoden
2010-06-23, 02:29 PM
Can I stone shape all my pieces into queens?

Mr.Moron
2010-06-23, 02:30 PM
I always find challenges like this a bit annoying. I've got a character who is a much better sword-swinger, or song-singer than me and my own gelatinous body and horrible voice never enter the equation. However when it comes to piecing together clues, or dealing with logic puzzles suddenly that character with an INT score of 16+ is completely bound by the abilities of a player who would translate into a 9-11.

When doing something like this make sure exceptionally intelligent or wise characters at least get "Clues" in the OOC sense to represent deductions and insights that the player could never make, on account of being so much dumber than their character.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-23, 02:31 PM
Can I stone shape all my pieces into queens?Nah, they're made out of an exotic metal called ... polymerium!

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-23, 02:31 PM
1. Make all of the chess pieces golems that attack the party if they try to bypass the game.

2. Put the party in the king's position for their side. This gives them a reason to defend the king at all costs. If they fail to protect the king, they get attacked by a golem. This gives the players a chance to get through the room without having to win the game.

3. If the players are the lucky or unlucky enough to bring the game to a draw, then they should be required to fight the final golem.

Coidzor
2010-06-23, 02:31 PM
I'm 90% sure this was done in some Harry Potter book or other. I'm thinking Chamber of Secrets but I could be wrong.

The first one, actually. Sorcerer's(Philosopher's) Stone.

They were piddly little kids, so the fight it out option wasn't really on the table. As it stands, if you went the way of the chess pieces being constructs who are aware enough to obstruct the path of the characters, you'd have to have some means of discouraging them from just blasting their way through.

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 02:49 PM
Bughouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bughouse_chess) atomic chess! :smallamused:

Oh gods, have you actually put those two variants together in practice? I have no idea how you'd go about strategizing in that kind of game. :smalleek:

arguskos
2010-06-23, 02:49 PM
By the by, in Dragon #358, there are six monsters of use here: Pawn, Knight, Bishop, Rook, Queen, and King, along with some game rules for magical chess, and some alternate set ideals (a Beholder set, an Illithid set, etc).

Worth checking into if you're doing this in 3.5.

Kylarra
2010-06-23, 02:52 PM
Oh gods, have you actually put those two variants together in practice? I have no idea how you'd go about strategizing in that kind of game. :smalleek:It involves lots of pawns in strategic positions throughout ranks 3-6.

PersonMan
2010-06-23, 02:53 PM
The first one, actually. Sorcerer's(Philosopher's) Stone.

They were piddly little kids, so the fight it out option wasn't really on the table. As it stands, if you went the way of the chess pieces being constructs who are aware enough to obstruct the path of the characters, you'd have to have some means of discouraging them from just blasting their way through.

If they're low-level enough, just making them Stone Golems(or even just large Earth Elementals) would be good enough to stop them.

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 03:07 PM
Oh gods, have you actually put those two variants together in practice? I have no idea how you'd go about strategizing in that kind of game. :smalleek:

You could also add either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andernach_chess) of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capablanca_chess), maybe even on a 10x10 board (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_chess). Perhaps with a side of darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_chess)? Or worse yet... flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_chess).

Or in place of bughouse, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazyhouse). Three-checks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_checks_chess) makes it go faster too, and doesn't make it more complicated. Grasshoppers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_chess) could be included, alongside grand chess this will make for just about all chess pieces ever (besides those which are used in lame, little known variants).

Of course, you could just use Dragonchess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonchess).

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 03:12 PM
You could also add either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andernach_chess) of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capablanca_chess), maybe even on a 10x10 board (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_chess). Perhaps with a side of darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_chess)? Or worse yet... flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_chess).

Or in place of bughouse, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazyhouse). Three-checks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_checks_chess) makes it go faster too, and doesn't make it more complicated. Grasshoppers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_chess) could be included, alongside grand chess this will make for just about all chess pieces ever (besides those which are used in lame, little known variants).

Of course, you could just use Dragonchess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonchess).

d***it now I have a lot of reading to do.

RandomAction
2010-06-23, 03:21 PM
I like this idea of a chess board being used as a puzzle for characters. Now you could have that one one player can use the board/game at a time and for every piece they lose in the game, they lose an equal amount of Hp as well. Pawns being 1hp, while rooks through the king would increase gradually.
Taking pieces from your opponent restores or grants temp hp until the # of rounds pass equal to the # of moves taken by that player during the game. The damage could be non-lethal, is you want to be kind to your players, or lethal, if they have been arses about it. The game only functions once a day, to keep highly skilled players from using it as a free healing spot/potion.
If players somehow decide to touch a piece or to interrupt the game as it is playing out, then turn the offended piece into a golem of some type. Clay for pawns and again scaling upwards. If some how a player clears the board of all his opponent's pieces, the has is affected by a severely limited version of the Limited Wish spell.
Or you could treat the board as if it was a modified variotn of a Deck of Many Things. This makes me think of two characters dueling it out Yu-gi-oh style with a Deck of Illusions.

gallagher
2010-06-23, 03:21 PM
an invisible npc eh? i dont see what is to stop the party-wizard from fire-balling in random locations until he hits someone. he could also just destroy other pieces, including the king.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 03:39 PM
If there is any intellectual difference between the PCs and the players, it ruins something. There are some aspects that you won't be able to play out, such as skills and mental stats. Unless you ask your players to tie a rope and then attempt to untie it to see if your NPC can escape, or see how high they can jump... You will find yourself having to give your players clues (as if their character thought of it) in order to keep them IC...

Person_Man
2010-06-23, 03:47 PM
On the subject of Chess variants, you could always make it a game of Shogi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi). It's much more complex and interesting compared to western chess (and playing it for any length of time will render your brain incapable of playing western chess).

Siosilvar
2010-06-23, 03:55 PM
an invisible npc eh? i dont see what is to stop the party-wizard from fire-balling in random locations until he hits someone. he could also just destroy other pieces, including the king.

But if there's no king, you can't checkmate it. You just made the game unwinnable.

Alternately, constructs are magic-immune.

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-23, 04:02 PM
If there is any intellectual difference between the PCs and the players, it ruins something. There are some aspects that you won't be able to play out, such as skills and mental stats. Unless you ask your players to tie a rope and then attempt to untie it to see if your NPC can escape, or see how high they can jump... You will find yourself having to give your players clues (as if their character thought of it) in order to keep them IC...

This has always been difficult in roleplaying games period. Clever players who play dumb brutes, generally come up with ideas their characters never would have thought of. On the other hand, not so clever players, who play genius level wizards, tend to stick with standard tactics.

It is impossible for people to ever fully portray their characters. Therefore it is necessary to leave multiple solutions to any problem. The idea of having a chess game is to get the players to think out side the box and not rely on their characters stats all of the time.

Knaight
2010-06-23, 04:03 PM
Nah, they're made out of an exotic metal called ... polymerium!

Please, lets get a little more specific (http://pslc.ws/mactest/level2.htm).

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 04:06 PM
Or you could treat the board as if it was a modified variotn of a Deck of Many Things. This makes me think of two characters dueling it out Yu-gi-oh style with a Deck of Illusions.

Actually, I recently created a sort of mini-game for DnD that involves a chess or checkers board and a self made "Deck of Traps".

GoblinGilmartin
2010-06-24, 12:02 AM
Putting a king over the exit and the NPC not moving it unless under check and no other solution exists could make the puzzle a bit longer... What happens if the PCs fail?

I found rules for this race called the chaturans in Dragon magazine, which are essentially chess piece creatures from mechanus. if you fail, the big chess pieces turn into chaturan, which are only about CR 2, so it wouldn't be a huge pain to have many of them in a singular encounter, but if you fail too early it could be a bit of a setback.

arguskos
2010-06-24, 12:07 AM
I found rules for this race called the chaturans in Dragon magazine, which are essentially chess piece creatures from mechanus. if you fail, the big chess pieces turn into chaturan, which are only about CR 2, so it wouldn't be a huge pain to have many of them in a singular encounter, but if you fail too early it could be a bit of a setback.
I actually mentioned these, with an issue number (358) on page 1. :smallcool:

I approve of them, btws. The more powerful ones are pretty scary though (the King, Queen, and Rook are all pretty tough stuff).

GoblinGilmartin
2010-06-24, 12:09 AM
I actually mentioned these, with an issue number (358) on page 1. :smallcool:

I approve of them, btws. The more powerful ones are pretty scary though (the King, Queen, and Rook are all pretty tough stuff).

sorry for idea-poaching, i went and downloaded a pdf of the Dragon issue with them in it

dgnslyr
2010-06-24, 12:17 AM
Grasshopper chess? Those grasshoppers seem suspiciously like cannons from Chinese chess...

As for the pieces, you could make them earth elementals or golems at a ridiculous CR; if the PCs do something stupid, they start attacking.

Better yet, make it a Go game. No more silly stalemates. It's also too complicated for a computer to play, at least the way chess computers work... The best chess computers just plot out nearly every possible permutation; since pieces are restricted in how they move, there's relatively few possibilities, compared to the over 361! permutations of go.

arguskos
2010-06-24, 12:41 AM
sorry for idea-poaching, i went and downloaded a pdf of the Dragon issue with them in it
It's a good issue. Lots of solid material. I approve of Dragon material most of the time, since it has this tendency to be significantly better than folks think.

Kesnit
2010-06-24, 08:50 AM
I can't believe no one has asked this yet...

Why are you doing this? To me, it sounds like the waste of an entire session or more. Esp if you have players (or even just one player) who just does not like chess. Or if the players who like chess can't agree on what moves to make.

GoblinGilmartin
2010-06-24, 10:44 AM
I can't believe no one has asked this yet...

Why are you doing this? To me, it sounds like the waste of an entire session or more. Esp if you have players (or even just one player) who just does not like chess. Or if the players who like chess can't agree on what moves to make.

The pieces count as animate objects, so if you cant play, say "screw this!" and start blasting your way through, taking as much or as little time as you want. not that difficult...

GoblinGilmartin
2010-06-24, 11:24 AM
the main point of this puzzle isn't that it is a full game, but it is a puzzle that is already part way through

Shatteredtower
2010-06-25, 12:28 AM
In that case, it's best to keep the problem simple. The Babson task, for example, is not a good idea here, but a simple Excelsior theme could be perfect for this.

Another tool that could help is to make the other side's pieces on the small board illusory, moving only in response to the correct move. Players could still get themselves in trouble by losing track of their own pieces or destroying the board, so it's best to make the result of this puzzle useful, but not essential.

Alternatives to the path you suggest are a magic portal that only opens upon completion of the puzzle, whether to a shortcut or encounter appropriate treasure, or information revealed with each correct move, whether by a programmed illusion or mechanisms connected to the big pieces or floor.

I've got several other ideas, but better find out if any of these are useful first. No, two more: look into the works of noted chess composers. You might also want to check out a few joke problems.