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ninjainthedark
2010-06-23, 03:57 PM
What's your opinion, is 3.5 better, or 4.0, and why? I myself play 4.0, but I'm just wondering you all thought it was a good choice.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-23, 03:59 PM
That depends on whether you're talking about GURPS, Shadowrun, or Microsoft Windows...

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 04:01 PM
I believe he's talking about Dungeons and Dragons

personally, I prefer 3.5 because not only is it familiar, but 4E just smacks too much of WoW for me to respect it too much. Plus, the 3.5 stuff is compatible with Pathfinder

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 04:02 PM
And I believe this question is even more subjective and polemic than alignments.

Gametime
2010-06-23, 04:03 PM
Good thing I wore my flame retardant underwear!

If you're enjoying the game you're playing, that's all that really matters. The games are similar in many ways, different in many more, and appealing to different (though overlapping) groups. I wouldn't worry about a comparison - it tends to end poorly.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 04:04 PM
I'll say... blueberry.

Sorry...

The subject's been done to death, and it tends not to end well. In the end, while both games have advantages and disadvantages, neither is really objectively better or worse than the other.

The question may as well have been "What's your favourite ice cream flavour, and why?"

Umael
2010-06-23, 04:04 PM
I would like to play both.

My gaming group won't play 4th edition.

Therefore, I go with 3.5.

Simple enough?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 04:04 PM
Good thing I wore my flame retardant underwear!
I wear underpants made of black dragon scales.

huttj509
2010-06-23, 04:04 PM
Try a search for, oh, anything regarding DnD 4.0 and you'll come upon multi page threads on this subject.

Some people actually are willing to discuss the pros and cons on both sides, possible shifts in game design focus, etc.

However, on both sides there's too many loud "stop having fun guys!" folks to make a rational discussion feasible, and starting a topic is just asking for it to devolve into a flame war.

As for me, personally, what I found clunky and annoying about 3.5, 4.0 streamlined. And what 4.0 lost in the process, does not matter much to me. So for me, I'd rather play 4.0 given the choice.

I do not play 4.0, as I was asked to DM a game, and rather than take them from ADnD 2e to 4e, I DM'd in 3.5 so I'd be teaching rules I actually knew.

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 04:04 PM
Good thing I wore my flame retardant underwear!

If you're enjoying the game you're playing, that's all that really matters. The games are similar in many ways, different in many more, and appealing to different (though overlapping) groups. I wouldn't worry about a comparison - it tends to end poorly.

I agree, on all points - no matter the system if the game is enjoyable it's enjoyed. And I'm glad someone mentioned the flame war. Gives me a nice opportunity to say the following:

Please don't argue about it. We've had enough.

Eldan
2010-06-23, 04:05 PM
I assume this subject will be closed soon: it is a subject which has lead to obsessive arguments, heated discussion and insults in the past, and I don't think it should be brought up like that.

So, short version: two different editions, both have their advantages and disadvantages, some prefer one, some the other. The common argument tends to be that 4.0 is more gamist, while 3.5 is more simulationist.

Ormagoden
2010-06-23, 04:05 PM
Google is your friend (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=differences+between+3.5+and+4e&aq=1sx&aqi=g-sx3&aql=&oq=diffriences+between+3.5+and&gs_rfai=CqcUF73YiTOrvHoi6Ma3TrMEFAAAAqgQFT9CSx-E&fp=c8411ce5a7e9a208).
It helps you avoid sarcasm.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 04:06 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1259732841915.jpg

huttj509
2010-06-23, 04:07 PM
Sliver, I have not seen that pic before.

And I love it. I should photoshop him to look like a monk holding the ToB or something.

Eloi
2010-06-23, 04:08 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1259732841915.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac314/afternine/Bored-Baby-1284.jpg

lsfreak
2010-06-23, 04:12 PM
These threads do tend to end poorly...

They are fundamentally different games. It's like asking whether I would prefer to play TES:Oblivion or WoW. They play vastly differently, and the players themselves often have different mindsets about the game. Each has strengths and weaknesses, but comparing one to the other to find out which is better is hard because there are such great differences.

I like 3.5 due to complexity, how much there is to do, the different subsystems like binding and incarnum and psionics, and I like how you can make a specific character concept somewhere between 2-5 completely different ways and still have a good character. What I don't like is the complete imbalance, with trap-feats and trap-classes contrasted with god-combos buried among different books, so that the system itself rewards and even requires mastery in order to know what's good, what sucks, and what sucks in one combination and is awesome in another. Having to know exactly where your character is going in the long run and extremely poor out-of-combat rules are two other pitfalls.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 04:14 PM
Neither is "better", they're simply different. I have a lot more experience with 3.5 than 4e, but here are my impressions:

4e is very balanced, and lacks the 'traps' that 3.5 has. In theory, you can't screw up your character unless you're trying to, something 3.5 can never claim. It's also more streamlined and therefore easier to pick up for new players - every class uses more-or-less the same mechanics, gains powers at the same rates, and has relatively similar options. It also focuses much more on party roles, so that no single class can do everything and everyone in a balanced party (that is, the canonical Controller/Defender/Leader/Striker party) has an important part to play. However, all of this can lead to characters, at least of a given role, feeling very homogenized; there are many times only very limited opportunities to do anything 'different' with your character.

3.5, on the other hand, is incredibly varied, full of an unbelievable array of options that allows for very considerable customization of characters. There are tons of different subsystems which work in different ways, allowing a character to actually act very differently from another. This can be difficult to learn, and introduces a widely varying power level for different mechanics, so that certain options are simply "traps", that is, strictly inferior to other options. The rules are much less homogenous, which leads to ambiguities and unintended interactions that can greatly overpower certain builds. On the other hand, your character can be absolutely unique, and it's endlessly flexible. It also rewards rules mastery, which is generally bad (in that it punishes newbies or non-optimizers), but can be a lot of fun for people who enjoy mastering the rules (hence optimizers).


Personally, I like my options and I'll risk an unbalanced party to get them, so I prefer 3.5. On the other hand, my girlfriend has interest in learning D&D and I think I'll start her off on 4e, because it'll give her a lot less to keep track of, in my experience, and she'll appreciate that because she has zero interest in rules mastery. Different people will see different things in each edition that they like, though.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-23, 04:16 PM
Neither is objectively better. Both have their own strengths and weaknesses. They are different games.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-23, 04:17 PM
Diff'rent strokes, diff'rent folks, and all that.

tbarrie
2010-06-23, 04:19 PM
4.0 is better by 0.5.

Ormagoden
2010-06-23, 04:20 PM
What I hate about these is that it's usually a newish user, and the newish user doesn't comment on the thread ever again...

Southern Cross
2010-06-23, 04:22 PM
Actually,given a choice I'd rather play Arcana Evolved or,failing that,the Pathfinder RPG (complete with the forthcoming Advanced Player's Guide,so I can play a witch).
I personally,could barely glimpse at the Fourth Edition rules,as the designers took the opposite viewpoint from me in game design.I'd rather give the other classes more cool stuff instead of nerfing the spellcasting classes.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 04:23 PM
What I hate about these is that it's usually a newish user, and the newish user doesn't comment on the thread ever again...

You're right. Posting something and getting a long line of posts explaining why it's a bad move is kind of daunting.

At the same time, it's better than what could have happened.

ericgrau
2010-06-23, 04:24 PM
Yeah, I'm only giving a quick comment because he's obviously new. For a more detailed explanation he'll have to search the last 500 threads.

They are quite different games, for better or for worse. I think most people can agree on that at least. If you're already enjoying 4.0 then I would keep playing it and wouldn't try 3.5 any more than you would try another popular system. That said, I prefer 3.5 myself for the detail, depth and options, but not for the complication that leads to.

huttj509
2010-06-23, 04:28 PM
This thread is now about Integers versus non-integer real numbers.

True, 3.5 is more flexible, I mean, you can have 3.4, 3.6, 3.55 and still be in the same category, but it makes it harder to figure out exactly what 3.5 is. If you have 3 and a bit apples, it can be hard to get the number right, while if you have 4.0, working in Integers, there you are, no quandary.

Kallisti
2010-06-23, 04:30 PM
The question may as well have been "What's your favourite ice cream flavour, and why?"

Except that flame wars over ice cream flavors tend to end pretty fast, since once the flames melt all the ice cream people tend to go find something else to argue about.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 04:31 PM
You mean the figurative flames that aren't actually hot...

AvatarZero
2010-06-23, 04:37 PM
We've got some witty posters in this thread.

Best I can do is:

4e removed all those nasty little spells that can completely nullify an encounter, then go on to break the entire campaign setting and any plans the DM had that didn't revolve around "what the wizard feels like doing today". I miss those spells.

Umael
2010-06-23, 04:37 PM
Except that flame wars over ice cream flavors tend to end pretty fast, since once the flames melt all the ice cream people tend to go find something else to argue about.

Says you!

I optimized my asbestos strawberry ice cream to resist flame wars!

And can I just say that the shorbet supplement was totally unneccessary?

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 04:39 PM
I'm at least glad this thread hasn't devolved into an outright war by this point. us Playgrounders apparently like to be reasonable and sensible with our posts, presenting both sides in an out of proportion argument to keep it from devolving. I must say, I'm pleasantly surprised

That said, I agree very much DragoonWraith's evaluation. 3.5 brings us things like Tier 5 classes and Pun-Pun because of it's innumerable options, whereas 4.0 brings us a streamlined system. I love my options, so I'll be sticking with 3.5, but I don't think anyone should be put down for choosing one game over the other. It's all about your style and preference

Kurald Galain
2010-06-23, 04:54 PM
I must say that <game> is much better than <other game>, because it's really the only system in which you can play <archetype> in a properly <adverb> fashion. I got quickly fed up with <other game> because it is so <adjective>, and it is too <gerund> for most players, to the point where everybody who plays it is really a <noun>.

Last week I was playing <game> with my friend <name> and <anecdote> happened, and then it went <preposition> and the <conjunctive> became totally <syllogism> with <pronoun>! We were all extremely <adjective>. This shows why <game> is really the best on the market, regardless of what anyone else says.

Don't be a <noun>, buy <game> today!

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-23, 04:58 PM
You mean the figurative flames that aren't actually hot...

Hint: it's called a 'joke'.

It's a pretty common one on the Internet, too. It's basically a play on words.

Edit: The <conjunctive>? Conjunctives don't take articles.*

And what the heck is a <gerund>?!

*Unless the conjunctive is being used as a noun - i.e. referring to the word itself.

Jerthanis
2010-06-23, 04:59 PM
Oh for heaven's sake... again?

Read them each and form your own opinions. Playing a few sessions is even better.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 05:02 PM
I must say that <game> is much better than <other game>, because it's really the only system in which you can play <archetype> in a properly <adverb> fashion. I got quickly fed up with <other game> because it is so <adjective>, and it is too <gerund> for most players, to the point where everybody who plays it is really a <noun>.

Last week I was playing <game> with my friend <name> and <anecdote> happened, and then it went <preposition> and the <conjunctive> became totally <syllogism> with <pronoun>! We were all extremely <adjective>. This shows why <game> is really the best on the market, regardless of what anyone else says.

Don't be a <noun>, buy <game> today!

No, <game> <verb> because it is unable to handle <summary of test case>.

Basically, <other game> handles this perfectly well, because you have access to <noun> and <other noun>. But in <game>, because all of the <noun, plural> work differently, you can't play <test case> any more.

And because <single test case> is so important, <game> <verb> and anyone who likes it [is <adjective>|should <other verb>]

Ravens_cry
2010-06-23, 05:05 PM
Oh, <expletive>!

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 05:09 PM
<four letter abbreviation> <disparaging term implying lack of experience>!

:smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2010-06-23, 05:11 PM
<four letter abbreviation> <disparaging term implying lack of experience>!
Your <feminine ancestor> is a <disparaging term implying much experience>! just kidding.

Susano-wo
2010-06-23, 05:12 PM
I must say that <game> is much better than <other game>, because it's really the only system in which you can play <archetype> in a properly <adverb> fashion. I got quickly fed up with <other game> because it is so <adjective>, and it is too <gerund> for most players, to the point where everybody who plays it is really a <noun>.

Last week I was playing <game> with my friend <name> and <anecdote> happened, and then it went <preposition> and the <conjunctive> became totally <syllogism> with <pronoun>! We were all extremely <adjective>. This shows why <game> is really the best on the market, regardless of what anyone else says.

Don't be a <noun>, buy <game> today!

LOOOOOL :D

It is amazing that A: the thread has not been locked yet, and B: that people will pop in just to say "I don't have any interest in this thread," albeit in amusing ways :P

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-23, 05:14 PM
It is amazing that A: the thread has not been locked yet

There's nothing really against the rules here, except maybe topic drift.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 05:19 PM
There's nothing really against the rules here, except maybe topic drift.

It's completely up to Roland whether or not he wants to continue this.

The topic has got threads locked in the past, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be locked.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-23, 05:30 PM
I think Roland actually did lock the last one the instant he saw it.

Maybe he's asleep. He has to sleep some time.

lesser_minion
2010-06-23, 05:32 PM
Maybe he's asleep. He has to sleep some time.

Blasphemy! :smallbiggrin:

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 05:33 PM
Maybe he's asleep. He has to sleep some time.
Yeah, I'm with lesser_minion; your argument leaves me with doubts...

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 05:37 PM
Maybe he's asleep. He has to sleep some time.

He's not sleeping. He's merely refreshing his spells.

Octopus Jack
2010-06-23, 05:38 PM
Maybe he's asleep. He has to sleep some time.

He is watching us right now, take your blasphemous accusations about his apparent insuperiority elsewhere!

Marriclay
2010-06-23, 05:38 PM
He's not sleeping. He's merely refreshing his spells.

Ah yes, the infamous Lockdown and Bar Trolls

For Valor
2010-06-23, 05:44 PM
On Ebay, lots of people are selling 3.5e core books. However, few are selling 4e books. Therefore... oh, whatever.

3.5 has been modified by F&K so it makes sense. I choose [Tome] games.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-23, 05:46 PM
Popcorn is the best. Plus, the flames that will inevitably erupt in this thread will pre-cook it to perfection!

Roland St. Jude
2010-06-23, 05:47 PM
Sheriff: Thread seems like too general an invitation to flamewarring. You've done a nice job avoiding temptation but this thread is pretty well derailed.