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mobdrazhar
2010-06-23, 06:45 PM
Hi there playground,

my friend and i were challenged by our DM to build a 1 dip build each. one of us is to do a melee build and the other is to do a ranged/magic/psychic build.

what tips could you give us for this endevour? any help at all would be appreciated. we're starting at lvl 6 but if you could give up ideas on advancement after that too would be so useful. we have been allowed access to all official books.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 06:48 PM
What do you mean by 1 dip? Only 1 level from another class? Only made out of 1 levels in various classes?

Greenish
2010-06-23, 06:48 PM
What? You want a build that just dips one level to many classes?

Or do you want a x19/y1?

Private-Prinny
2010-06-23, 06:49 PM
Hi there playground,

my friend and i were challenged by our DM to build a 1 dip build each. one of us is to do a melee build and the other is to do a ranged/magic/psychic build.

what tips could you give us for this endevour? any help at all would be appreciated. we're starting at lvl 6 but if you could give up ideas on advancement after that too would be so useful. we have been allowed access to all official books.

By "1 dip build," do you mean A5/B1, with a single level as a dip, or A1/B1/C1/X1/Y1/Z1, where all 6 levels are dips?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 06:50 PM
Assuming this is a 20-class-character, and not the x 19/y 1 guess by Greenish, here's my suggestion:

Here's my answer (finally). It assumes fractional BAB, and it also assumes alignment restrictions are not in force. With alignment restrictions, you'd have to choose somewhat different +1 casting class PrCs (but there are plenty of those to go around so that's not a huge problem):
{table=head]Level|Class|Variant|Requirements|BAB|Features|Norm al Feats|Prep. Sp. Lv.|Spont. Sp. Lv.|Spellcasting of...
Human|||||Bonus Feat and Skill Points|Able Learner
1st|Abjurer|Fighter Feats, Focused Specialist||0.5|Endurance, Familiar|Precocious Apprentice|2nd||Wizard
2nd|Bard||Non-Lawful|1.25|Bardic Music, Bardic Lore, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1||2nd|1st|Bard
3rd|Crusader|||2.25|Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve|Chain Spell (or any other MM)|2nd|1st|
4th|Monk|Chaos, Illuminated|Chaotic|3|Skill Focus (Spellcraft)||2nd|1st|
5th|Warblade|||4|Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude||2nd|1st|
6th|Fighter|Bodyguard||5|Iron Will|Combat Casting|2nd|1st|
7th|Horizon Walker||Endurance|6|Desert Terrain Mastery||2nd|1st|
8th|Suel Arcanamach||+6 BAB, Iron Will, Combat Casting|7|Ignore Spell Failure 5%, Tenacious Spells||2nd|1st|Suel Arcanamach
9th|Ultimate Magus||Spont. Arc. Spells 1st, Prep. Arc. Spells 2nd, any Metamagic|7.5|Spell Power +1|Spell Focus (Abjuration)|2nd|2nd|Suel Arcanamach
10th|Abjurant Champion||+5 BAB, Combat Casting, Arc. Spells 1st|8.5|Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration||2nd|3rd|Suel Arcanamach
11th|Sublime Chord||Spont. Arc. Spells 3rd, Bardic Music|9|Bardic Music, Bardic Lore||2nd|5th|Sublime Chord
12th|Incantatrix||Arc. Spells 3rd, any Metamagic|9.5|Bonus Feat: Cooperative Spell|Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)|2nd|5th|Sublime Chord
13th|Mage of the Arcane Order||Cooperative Spell, any other Metamagic, Prep. Arc. Spells 2nd|10|Spellpool I||2nd|6th|Sublime Chord
14th|Sacred Exorcist||Good, Cast Dismissal|10.5|Exorcism, Turn Undead||2nd|6th|Sublime Chord
15th|Paragnostic Apostle||Spells 3rd|11|Holy Texts, Knowledge is Power, Lore|Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)|2nd|7th|Sublime Chord
16th|Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil||Cast five Abjurations, two Abjurations 4th level or higher, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)|11.5|Warding 1/day, Unimpeachable Abjuration, Red Veil||2nd|7th|Sublime Chord
17th|Fatespinner||Spells 4th|12|Spin Fate||2nd|8th|Sublime Chord
18th|Mindbender||Non-Good, Cast Charm Person|12.5|Telepathy|Spell Focus (Transmutation)|2nd|8th|Sublime Chord
19th|Archmage||Arc. Spells 7th, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (any school) x2|13|High Arcana||2nd|9th|Sublime Chord
20th|Wayfarer Guide||Cast Teleport|13.5|Enhanced Capacity, Improved Range||2nd|9th|Sublime Chord[/table]
With alignment restrictions, you need to choose between Sacred Exorcist and Mindbender, since they're mutually exclusive, and take some other PrC.

Sublime Chord Caster level is 16, 17 if you take the Spell Power High Arcana. You have 4th through 9th level Arcane Spellcasting from the Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard spell lists, plus 0th and 1st (2nd for Abjurations) level Wizard spells, 0th and 1st level Bard spells, and 1st through 3rd level spells of the Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation schools from the Wizard and Sorcerer spell list, and the ability to "call" 1st through 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard spells with the Spellpool ability. You need 12 Int, but that's hardly burdensome. You won't have a ton of extra skill points to throw around, but you will have some. Other than that, well, 19 Cha is necessary to cast those spells, but you'll want more than that anyway.


Without Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist, MotAO is impossible (or annoying because you have to devote two levels of what could be Sublime Chord spellcasting to Wizard, losing 9th level spells, or somehow fit Arcane Preparation into this), but without MotAO you can ditch Cooperative Spell, ditch Chain Spell, ditch Incantatrix, and do something else. It would probably free up a lot of feats. You also can't use Ultimate Magus, which is annoying, because the Spell Power bit is so nice. I'm sure there are options for this, though.

A flaw makes some of this quite easy, two makes the entire build trivial, since you could fit Arcane Preparation in there.


I think what I like best about the character is that he's not too all over the place. He definitely has some themes going on there, with the heavy abjuration and the several divine classes (Crusader, Sacred Exorcist, Paragnostic Apostle). I wanted to put Divine Oracle, too, but getting Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) wasn't going to happen. If it did, you could get Loremaster, though, which would be kind of neat, giving you four classes that give Bardic Knowledge/Lore. Might actually fit the theme better, hmm...

You're also a member of the Paragnostic Assembly, the Arcane Order, the Wayfarer's Guild, and the Sevenfold Veil. I don't believe there are any particular conflicts between these factions, though.

Hague
2010-06-23, 07:09 PM
Yeah, there is a conflict. The Head of the Paragnostic Assembly said he thinks rainbows are stupid. You can imagine how the people at the Sevenfold Veil felt about that...

mobdrazhar
2010-06-23, 07:12 PM
it's the 1 lvl dip into each class. thanks for the build DragoonWraith!!! does anyone have an idea for a melee build too?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 07:14 PM
Not really, not without homebrew. There aren't enough Tome of Battle classes, and I cannot in good conscience recommend any non-ToB melee build.

Draz74
2010-06-23, 07:16 PM
Melee shouldn't really be too hard. Many melee classes synergize well and have frontloaded abilities.

Obviously you'll want one level of each Tome of Battle base class. Obviously Fighter, Barbarian (!), Psychic Warrior ... obviously Fractional BAB will be a boon, as there's a number of good melee classes that have Medium BAB on their own, and the drain on your BAB would be annoying.

mobdrazhar
2010-06-23, 07:17 PM
Melee shouldn't really be too hard. Many melee classes synergize well and have frontloaded abilities.

Obviously you'll want one level of each Tome of Battle base class. Obviously Fighter, Barbarian (!), Psychic Warrior ... obviously Fractional BAB will be a boon, as there's a number of good melee classes that have Medium BAB on their own, and the drain on your BAB would be annoying.

any variants that would work best for fighter and barb?

Draz74
2010-06-23, 07:20 PM
any variants that would work best for fighter and barb?

Fighter, as far as I know, no. Standard is fine. The only good ACF I can think of for the first Fighter Level is the Kobold Racial Substitution, and I doubt you're a Kobold.

Barbarian, of course the standard cheesy "Lion Spirit Totem" option from Complete Champion is a feature that the other classes will all enjoy having. I'd also go Whirling Frenzy (UA) instead of Rage, personally, especially if you take your Barbarian level early (I would take it at Level 2, after taking something that gets me more skill points like Ranger for Level 1).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 07:25 PM
Barbarian, of course the standard cheesy "Lion Spirit Totem" option from Complete Champion
:headdesk:

Good god, is Lion Spirit Totem not cheesy. It's necessary. The difficulty of getting Pounce in 3.5 is preposterous, and it's obscene that it took until the printing of Complete Champion to fix that. It sucks that the only reasonable way to get it is to dip Barbarian, but you just need it.

Yes, melee tend to multiclass more easily. The reason for this is primarily because they don't get anything nice to lose.

Il_Vec
2010-06-23, 07:28 PM
I have done this before. BEHOLD! Take it as an example. Maybe you will get some nice ideas out of it.


Here goes a try at it:


28 point-buy: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Wis 12, Int 12, Cha 8
32 point-buy: Up Con and Int to 14.

Level 1: Ranger
Bab +1, Fort +2, Reflex +2, Will +0, Hp = 8
Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy
Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush.
Skills: (6 + Int + 1) x4
Jump 4 ranks, Knowledge(Nature, Geography) 4 each, Cross-class Knowledge(Religion, Arcana) 4 points for 2 ranks, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Survival 4. Know (Dungeoneering) 4 if 14 Int.

Level 2: Duskblade
Bab +2, Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +2, Hp 8 + 1d8
Armored mage(light), Arcane attunement
Skills: 2 + Int + 1
Jump +1 rank, Know(Religion) +3 ranks. Know (Geography) +1 rank if Int 14.

Level 3: Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian
Bab +3, Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2, Hp 8 + 1d8 + 1d12
Rage 1x/Day, Pounce
Feat: Dodge
Skills: 4 + Int + 1
Jump +1 rank, Know(Geography) + 1 rank (crossclass), Gather Information +1 (crossclass). Handle Animal +1 if 14 Int

Level 4: Cloistered Cleric
Bab+3, Fort + 8, Ref +2, Will + 4, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 1d8 +1d12
Lore, Knowledge Domain, War Domain(Weapon Focus: Longsword), Inquisiton Domain (Trade in for Knowledge Devotion, as Complete Champion pg 53)
Level Ability Raise: If Int 12, raise to 13; otherwise Str or Con.
Skills: 6 + Int + 1; Knowledge Devotion makes one Knowledge in-class for all levels, choose this based on campaign needs.
Jump + 1 rank (crossclass), Know (Religion) +2 Ranks, Know(Arcana, Dungeoneering, Geography, Planes) + 1 rank; Know(Local) +1 if 14 int.

Level 5: Ordained Champion
Bab +4, Fort + 10, Ref +2, Will +6, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 1d12
Bonus Domain, Combat Feats, Continued Advancement, Modified Spontainety
Trade Glory & Knowledge domains for: Endurance, Mobility
Skills: 2 + Int + 1
Jump +1 rank (crossclass), Gather Information + 1 rank(crossclass); Know(any in-class) +1 if 14 Int

Level 6: Fighter
Bab +5, Fort + 12, ref +2, Will +6, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 1d10+ 1d12
Leap Attack, Combat Expertise
Skills: 2 + Int + 1
Gather Information + 2 ranks (crossclass); Jump +1 if 14 Int

Level 7: Bloodhound
Bab +6, Fort + 14, Ref +4, Will + 6, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 2d8 + 2d10 + 1d12
Mark (1), Swift Tracker
Skills: 6 + Int + 1
Hide + 2 ranks, Move Silently + 2 ranks, Tumble + 2 (Crossclass). Knowledge (in-class) + 1 if 14 Int

Level 8: Dread Commando
Bab +7, Fort + 14, Ref + 6, Will +6, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 3d8 +2d10 + 1d12
Team Initiative Bonus, sudden strike + 1d6
Ability Raise: If Int 13, Raise to 14. Otherwise, raise the same as lv 4.
Skills: 6 + Int=2 + 1
Tumble +1(crossclass), Perform + 3(crossclass), Know (Geography) + 1.

Level 9: Dervish
Bab +8, Fort + 14, Ref + 8, Will +8, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 3d8 + 3d10 + 1d12
Ac +1, Dervish Dance 1x/Day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades.
Shock Trooper or Combat Casting > Depends on whether Martial Wizard can get Combat Casting as a Bonus Feat.
Skills: 4 + Int + 1
Know (Geography) + 1(crossclass), Tumble + 2, Jump +3.

Level 10:Horizon Walker
Bab +9, Fort + 16, Ref +8, Will +8, Hp 8 + 1d6 + 4d8 + 3d10 + 1d12
Terrain Mastery (Desert)
Skills: 4+int+1; Right now, you have all skills you need for pre-requisites on classes and feats, and can Take 10 on Jump and Tumble checks. I'd go on Knowledges, spot, listen and UMD, as needed.

Level 11: Martial Wizard
Bab +9, Fort + 16, Ref +8, Will +10, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 4d8 + 3d10 + 1d12
Combat Casting or Shock Trooper > Could move this level down to 9 and get both then.
Skills: 2 + Int + 1 > Note that all knowledges are class skills.

Level 12: Abjurant Champion
Bab +10, Fort +16, Ref + 8, Will + 12 Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 4d8 + 4d10 + 1d12
Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration +1 Wizard Spellcasting Progression
Ability Raise: Str or Con, as needed.
Iron Will
Skills: 2 + Int + 1

Level 13: Dragonslayer
Bab +11, Fort +18, Ref +8, Will +14, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 4d8 + 5d10 + 1d12
Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus, +1 Wizard Spellcasting Progression
Skills: 2 + Int + 1

Level 14: Spellsword
Bab +12, Fort +20, Ref +8, Will+16, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 5d8 + 5d10 + 1d12

Level 15: BearWarrior
Bab + 13, Fort + 22, Ref +8, Will + 16, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 5d8 + 5d10 + 2d12
Black Bear Form
Really not sure what feat to pick here, maybe Arcane Strike or Combat Reflexes.
Skills: 4 + Int + 1

Level 16: Swashbuckler < I don't like this level, but couldn't find another fit.
Bab + 14, Fort +22, Ref +10, Will +16, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 5d8 + 6d10 + 2d12
Weapon Finesse (Useless)
Ability raise: Keep on Str or Con.
Skills: 4 + Int + 1

Level 17: Unarmed Swordsage
Bab + 14, Fort +22, Ref +12, Will +18, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 6d8 + 6d10 + 2d12
Unarmed strike, Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus, IL = 9
Skills: 6 + Int + 1

Level 18: Crusader
Bab + 15, Fort +24, Ref+12, Will+18, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 6d8 + 7d10 + 2d12
Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike, IL = 9
Skills: 4 + Int + 1

Level 19: Fist of the Forest
Bab + 16, Fort +26, Ref +14, Will +18, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 6d8 + 8d10 + 2d12
Ac Bonus, Fast Movement, Feral Trance 1x/day, Primal living, Unarmed Damage
Skills: 2 + Int + 1

Level 20: Warblade
Bab + 17, Fort +28, Ref +14, Will +18, Hp 8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 6d8 + 8d10 + 3d12
Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, IL 10
Skills: 4 + Int +1



If you look the original thread, you will notice that I was not satisfied with the Swashbucler level there. But I couldnt find a good substitute.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-23, 07:30 PM
it's the 1 lvl dip into each class. thanks for the build DragoonWraith!!! does anyone have an idea for a melee build too?

Whichever of you does the melee can pull it off. The one that has to do a 'caster' is utterly, indescribably screwed, since he'll never get beyond 1st level spells (2nd with Precocious Apprentice) unless you go into the hardcore cheese (and debatably legal) Sanctum Spell+Dragonsblood Pool combo.

Il_Vec
2010-06-23, 07:42 PM
Whichever of you does the melee can pull it off. The one that has to do a 'caster' is utterly, indescribably screwed, since he'll never get beyond 1st level spells (2nd with Precocious Apprentice) unless you go into the hardcore cheese (and debatably legal) Sanctum Spell+Dragonsblood Pool combo.

That is not quite the case. It is a problem of starting to dip +1 arcane caster level classes at level 5, to have 3rd level spells at 10th and entering Sublime Chord, and keep dipping to progress Sublime Chord casting. See the previous build by greenish to see it done, and it is not the only one way.

Myou
2010-06-23, 07:45 PM
Whichever of you does the melee can pull it off. The one that has to do a 'caster' is utterly, indescribably screwed, since he'll never get beyond 1st level spells (2nd with Precocious Apprentice) unless you go into the hardcore cheese (and debatably legal) Sanctum Spell+Dragonsblood Pool combo.

He'll be fine if PrCs are allowed.
If not then even cheese won't help him.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-23, 07:46 PM
That is not quite the case. It is a problem of starting to dip +1 arcane caster level classes at level 5, to have 3rd level spells at 10th and entering Sublime Chord, and keep dipping to progress Sublime Chord casting. See the previous build by greenish to see it done, and it is not the only one way.

I don't know of any casting prestige classes that only require 1st level spells to enter though.

You've got a point on Sublime Chord though. So I amend my statement - the caster guy is utterly screwed until level 10+, at which point he begins breaking the game as normal.

Il_Vec
2010-06-23, 07:49 PM
I don't know of any casting prestige classes that only require 1st level spells to enter though.


Abjurant Champion is one. You only need one more. I am AFB, but think Dragonslayer progresses arcane casting but does not require any casting at all.

mobdrazhar
2010-06-23, 07:56 PM
thanks all for your help!!!

it is greatly appreciated!

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 07:59 PM
Whichever of you does the melee can pull it off. The one that has to do a 'caster' is utterly, indescribably screwed, since he'll never get beyond 1st level spells (2nd with Precocious Apprentice) unless you go into the hardcore cheese (and debatably legal) Sanctum Spell+Dragonsblood Pool combo.
See my build - it's rough early, but not awful, I think. You'll have decent BAB and HP for quite a bit of it, until you start getting into real spellcasting.

mobdrazhar
2010-06-23, 10:57 PM
where abouts is unarmed swordsage located... can't seem to find it.

playswithfire
2010-06-23, 11:03 PM
I don't know of any casting prestige classes that only require 1st level spells to enter though.

There are a couple that only require 'caster level 5th' so, with the Practiced Spellcaster feat and 1 level of caster, those are also an option.


where abouts is unarmed swordsage located... can't seem to find it.
There's an Adaptation section in the swordsage entry (page 20, top left). Unarmed comes right before the incomplete/poorly thought out arcane swordsage option.

Zovc
2010-06-23, 11:08 PM
Not really, not without homebrew. There aren't enough Tome of Battle classes, and I cannot in good conscience recommend any non-ToB melee build.

Would something like Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/(Cloistered) Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1 be THAT bad?

lsfreak
2010-06-23, 11:22 PM
Would something like Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/(Cloistered) Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1 be THAT bad?

The problem is getting the good melee stuff to stretch over 20 levels. Melee prestige classes tend to be harder to qualify for while being inferior in features compared to caster stuff, because a simple +1 spellcasting class is great, while d10HD and +1BAB is... not. You'll probably want to delay ToB stuff as late as possible, in order to get better stuff.

Coidzor
2010-06-24, 12:08 AM
Hmm, how's Incarnum for the melee end?

Zovc
2010-06-24, 12:17 AM
The problem is getting the good melee stuff to stretch over 20 levels. Melee prestige classes tend to be harder to qualify for while being inferior in features compared to caster stuff, because a simple +1 spellcasting class is great, while d10HD and +1BAB is... not. You'll probably want to delay ToB stuff as late as possible, in order to get better stuff.

That's a pretty good point, that build might work well enough at level 6, but might be awful in the long run... It probably wouldn't hurt to take ONE ToB class by level 6.

I'll continue to suggest taking one level in Cleric or Cloistered Cleric because domain abilities are awesome.

Glimbur
2010-06-24, 12:35 AM
Hmm, how's Incarnum for the melee end?

Soulborn is full BAB. Don't take Soulborn.

Totemist gets its signature ability at level 2. It's 3/4 BAB and the soulmelds can be nice, but...

Incarnate is 1/2 BAB and has interesting soulmelds.

Regardless of if you go Totemist or Incarnate, you'll want to spend some feats on more essentia and actually getting chakra binds. That gets expensive. But you don't have to, and the ability to get a few extra points to a skill or AC or whatever that you change each day can be useful.

tl;dr Dip Incarnate or Totemist.

Sliver
2010-06-24, 02:33 AM
Could a binder dip with the improved binding feat for 2nd level vestiges give something interesting for either of the dipper roles?

Coidzor
2010-06-24, 02:33 AM
Soulborn is full BAB. Don't take Soulborn.
tl;dr Dip Incarnate or Totemist.

The funny thing is, I'd heard of the Incarnate and Totemist before (but mostly the Totemist), and yet never have heard of anyone playing a Soulborn.

Zaq
2010-06-24, 02:48 AM
The funny thing is, I'd heard of the Incarnate and Totemist before (but mostly the Totemist), and yet never have heard of anyone playing a Soulborn.

It's a full BAB class that isn't ToB or Duskblade.

That should tell you everything you need to know about it.

thompur
2010-07-23, 06:07 PM
Could a binder dip with the improved binding feat for 2nd level vestiges give something interesting for either of the dipper roles?

Absolutely! For a character like this, Binder is a no brainer! Greatly ups the versatility!

DragoonWraith
2010-07-23, 06:22 PM
A bit old, but not necromancy.

Anyway, Incarnum is bad if you're limited to only 1 level; both Incarnate and Totemist are much better for a 2 level dip than a 1.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-07-23, 10:11 PM
Idea for the caster build: If you're a Lesser Drow or somesuch, Drow Paragon can give a first-level casting boost.

Mnemnosyne
2010-07-24, 02:18 AM
Could a binder dip with the improved binding feat for 2nd level vestiges give something interesting for either of the dipper roles?
Binder, Anima Mage, and Knight of the Sacred Seal along with the Improved Binding feat could get a person to 3rd level Vestiges that include Focalor, Karsus, and Paimon, especially.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-29, 09:25 PM
:headdesk:

Good god, is Lion Spirit Totem not cheesy. It's necessary. The difficulty of getting Pounce in 3.5 is preposterous, and it's obscene that it took until the printing of Complete Champion to fix that. It sucks that the only reasonable way to get it is to dip Barbarian, but you just need it.

Yes, melee tend to multiclass more easily. The reason for this is primarily because they don't get anything nice to lose.

I agree. As far as the physical combat classes go, I think of dipping and multiclassing as a feature.