Redcloak vs the Order in #115

[Cisturn]

Hey Playgrounders, I was looking through the Archive and was wondering, do you think Redcloak could have beaten the Order of the Stick by himself back in 115? I understand that at the time he was only a generic goblin cleric, but with all the power we know he has now, do you think he could of won?

[RndmNumGen]

Redcloak wasn't a generic goblin cleric back then. He was already the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the highest rank in the hierarchy of the Dark One's clerics. That said, no I don't think he could have. He was(is) very powerful, and certainly could have killed a few members of the order, but all of them combined would have slain him.

Now, if MitD helped Redcloak out, then yeah, they probably could have massacred the Order, just based on MitD's strength alone. Why Redcloak did decide to retreat I don't know(other than that would have resulted in a very short webcomic), since the Gate hadn't been blown up at that point.

[Zen_Heart]

Rich hadn't thought of the whole story yet and at that point, Redcloak was meant to be a disposable mook (Redcloak), and later on he figured out the story totally. As he is now, yeah, I bet Redcloak could have killed them all and would have for the sake of the gate. Back then, he was a mook with the guy who paid his checks gone, so he ran.

[Dr.Epic]

Doubtful. The Order outnumbered him greatly and Redcloak wasn't high enough level to just stomp them.

[magic9mushroom]

We don't actually know what level RC was then. It could have been a lot lower, considering the huge amount of XP he must have racked up in Xykon's tower ridding it of all the Good monsters.

[hamishspence]

We can put lower bounds on it, from Start of Darkness- Redcloak was high enough level to cast Disintegrate, among other things.

[Ancalagon]

We know the order was level 8 to 9 ish in the Dungeon of Dorukan, maybe 10 or so at the end. Redlcoak could very well have been level 15 at that point. So yes, he could have beaten them.

Throw in a few normal goblins as order-distractions (even three or five could be enough) and the order would have a 90% to lose.

[Ceaon]

Yes, maybe Redcloak could have beaten the Order.
We didn't know that back then, but more importantly, Redcloak did not know that. He just saw one of them kill Xykon singlehandedly; he had every reason to run.
Furthermore, Redcloak might have had strict orders to protect the phylactery and take absolutely no risks at all.

[DrGonzo]

Yes, maybe Redcloak could have beaten the Order.
We didn't know that back then, but more importantly, Redcloak did not know that. He just saw one of them kill Xykon singlehandedly; he had every reason to run.
Furthermore, Redcloak might have had strict orders to protect the phylactery and take absolutely no risks at all.

I second this. Reddie would have probably kicked the crap out of the order, but protecting the phylactery comes first..

[Tass]

I've always considered this a plot hole (explained by the reasons Zen-heart pointed out), but there are actually some good justifications for his action in this thread.

Thanks.

[Procyonpi]

:elan:: Redcoak could not have defeated the order because they were wearing +20 holy plot full plate with spell resistance up to a bajizillion. How else do you think Roy beat Xykon.

On a more serious note, based soley on the rules, it's hard to tell. Yeah, the order was only around level 10 then, but Redcloak still hasn't gone epic, and probably gained a lot of XP in Xykon's tower and in the conquest of Azure City. He was probably level 14-15 then, tops. So it could be anywhere from redcloack having a slight edge to the Order crushing.

[Nilan8888]

Yes, maybe Redcloak could have beaten the Order.
We didn't know that back then, but more importantly, Redcloak did not know that. He just saw one of them kill Xykon singlehandedly; he had every reason to run.
Furthermore, Redcloak might have had strict orders to protect the phylactery and take absolutely no risks at all.

Thirded.

RedCloak's often a very cautious character and with Xykon gone he probably felt it was time to regroup. He was now in charge, but of what? Nto only was Xykon gone but these guys had taken out tons of thier guys on the way down.

He might have felt that maybe he COULD have taken on the order. But really what was the point if he could? If he did he was still stuck with a Gate they couldn't really operate. Maybe his thoughts at the time was that they'd beat a retreat now, come back later.

[derfenrirwolv]

If he had prepared spells to kill adventurers, yes. If he had been counting on xykon to deal with it and didn't, then no.

OOTsers to deal with.

V- paralyzed
Roy: weaponless.
Belkar
Haley
Elan
Durkon




Step 1: Cast Blasphemy

Roy,Durkon, Haley, and Elan are paralyzed, no save.

Step 2: Hold monster (from the law domain) on belkar. Between being a ranger and having a wisdom penalty it should drop him. If that doesn't work,

3) summon a monster that grapples.

Step 4) Slit throat

Step 5) Repeat step 4 as needed.

[Big Hungry Joe]

Thirded.

RedCloak's often a very cautious character and with Xykon gone he probably felt it was time to regroup. He was now in charge, but of what? Nto only was Xykon gone but these guys had taken out tons of thier guys on the way down.

He might have felt that maybe he COULD have taken on the order. But really what was the point if he could? If he did he was still stuck with a Gate they couldn't really operate. Maybe his thoughts at the time was that they'd beat a retreat now, come back later.

I agree with this. Even if you have a 90% chance to win, given Redcloak's much larger goals that's a 10% chance you instead lose the opportunity to fulfill the mandate of your god, and raise the Goblin people(s) out of what he sees as abusive bondage. No need to go to the mat when you have a much larger control-of-the-world goal. This is of course the point of Xykon's baseball analogy in #117. It's also possible Xykon actually told Redcloak this to get him to retreat in #115, since I assume his soul immediately swooped into the phylactery the second he blew up. Presumably Xykon wouldn't want Redcloak to risk his phylactery even if there's a good chance he would kill the adventurers instead.

[Kurald Galain]

Well...

The Order just defeated Xykon.
If Redcloak then defeats the Order, he is basically one-upping Xykon.
If there's one thing the lich can't stand...

So yeah, if Redcloak hadn't fled, he would have either been killed by the order, or he would have killed the order, and then be killed by Xykon afterwards. Not a good choice.

[derfenrirwolv]

So yeah, if Redcloak hadn't fled, he would have either been killed by the order, or he would have killed the order, and then be killed by Xykon afterwards. Not a good choice.

At that point Xykon was a disembodied soul inside redcloaks phylactery. It would have been easy for redcloak to destroy him then.

[Skyserpent]

At that point Xykon was a disembodied soul inside redcloaks phylactery. It would have been easy for redcloak to destroy him then.

True, but the thing is, Redcloak doesn't WANT to kill Xykon. He needs Xykon for the plan that he's already pretty much bet all his chips on.

(Oh hey, Ogre in the Playground. Go me.)

[Sanguine]

At that point Xykon was a disembodied soul inside redcloaks phylactery. It would have been easy for redcloak to destroy him then.

Ah but if he destroys Xykon he will have killed Right-Eye for nothing.

[Kurald Galain]

At that point Xykon was a disembodied soul inside redcloaks phylactery. It would have been easy for redcloak to destroy him then.
What Sanguine said. Also, Xykon's phylactery has the best Abjuration spells they could find on it. Since Xykon is higher level than Reddy, this would plausibly include some spells that Reddy can't deal with, or indeed doesn't even know about.

[factotum]

What Sanguine said. Also, Xykon's phylactery has the best Abjuration spells they could find on it.

It has those spells on it at the time of V's attack. We don't know that it had them earlier--in fact, Xykon's sheer terror when he realised Soon knew about his phylactery suggests to me that it DIDN'T have those protections on it at that point. It was that scare that encouraged Xykon to put the spells on it.

[Shadowleaf]

What Sanguine said. Also, Xykon's phylactery has the best Abjuration spells they could find on it. Since Xykon is higher level than Reddy, this would plausibly include some spells that Reddy can't deal with, or indeed doesn't even know about.
In #115, they were right next to a gate.

Remember Xykon's reaction to Blackwing going for the rift with the phylactery?

[Kurald Galain]

It has those spells on it at the time of V's attack. We don't know that it had them earlier--in fact, Xykon's sheer terror when he realised Soon knew about his phylactery suggests to me that it DIDN'T have those protections on it at that point. It was that scare that encouraged Xykon to put the spells on it.
While I'm sure Xykon would have put more spells on it, I find it highly unlikely that an epic lich would not have some kind of abjuration on his phylactery.


In #115, they were right next to a gate.
They were right next to a sealed gate.

[Black]

A sealed gate which destroyed evil creatures by touch. Perhaps it would have the same effect on an evil object (phylacteries do come up as evil if you detect alignment on them).

[derfenrirwolv]

What Sanguine said. Also, Xykon's phylactery has the best Abjuration spells they could find on it. Since Xykon is higher level than Reddy, this would plausibly include some spells that Reddy can't deal with, or indeed doesn't even know about.

And the gate he was standing next to had the best epic level "destroy anything that touches it" spells Durokan could come up with, and then there's always the "If Lord of the wings were d&d the book would be 1 paragraph long" solution of teleporting to mount doom and tossing the phylactery in. Even if the phylactery doesn't get destroyed, the volcano will damage his body faster than it regenerates.

[Kurald Galain]

there's always the "If Lord of the wings were d&d the book would be 1 paragraph long" solution of teleporting to mount doom and tossing the phylactery in.

Redcloak has never shown any teleportation ability. What makes you think he has any?

(edit) More importantly, Start Of Darkness explains why Redcloak is quite unwilling to destroy Xykon at that point. I'm saying that Redcloak doesn't attack the OOTS, because Xykon would kill him if he did. It does not follow, from Redcloak's perspective, that killing Xykon to prevent Xykon from killing him is a good plan. Start of Darkness, again.

[derfenrirwolv]

Redcloak has never shown any teleportation ability. What makes you think he has any?

(edit) More importantly, Start Of Darkness explains why Redcloak is quite unwilling to destroy Xykon at that point. I'm saying that Redcloak doesn't attack the OOTS, because Xykon would kill him if he did. It does not follow, from Redcloak's perspective, that killing Xykon to prevent Xykon from killing him is a good plan. Start of Darkness, again.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm

If desired by the subject, a magical wind wafts a wind walker along at up to 600 feet per round (60 mph) with poor maneuverability. Wind walkers are not invisible but rather appear misty and translucent. If fully clothed in white, they are 80% likely to be mistaken for clouds, fog, vapors, or the like.

He's within easy flying distance of someone that can teleport, even if wind walk couldn't get him there or somewhere similar on its own.

He could also put peanut butter on the phylactery and hand it to the MITD and say "here, have a cookie" , or simply cast magic weapon on a rock and bludgeon xykon to death as he reforms.. repeatedly.

the point is, Reddy is on his own free will and decision making at this point. he doesn't have a threat of xykon hanging over him because xykon ISN"T a threat.

[Nave Senrag]

the point is, Reddy is on his own free will and decision making at this point. he doesn't have a threat of xykon hanging over him because xykon ISN"T a threat.

hence his numerous jokes at Xykon's expense

[Oslecamo]

And the gate he was standing next to had the best epic level "destroy anything that touches it" spells Durokan could come up with, and then there's always the "If Lord of the wings were d&d the book would be 1 paragraph long" solution of teleporting to mount doom and tossing the phylactery in.

Actualy, RAW teleport doesn't work towards locations of great power, and if mount doom doesn't count as a location of great power, I don't know what does.

[Sir_Elderberry]

the point is, Reddy is on his own free will and decision making at this point. he doesn't have a threat of xykon hanging over him because xykon ISN"T a threat.
Redcloak doesn't listen to Xykon because of a threat hanging over him.

[derfenrirwolv]

Actualy, RAW teleport doesn't work towards locations of great power, and if mount doom doesn't count as a location of great power, I don't know what does.

Teleport 2 miles out and fly in. Seriously, this is NOT that hard, why is everyone trying to make it out to be some impossible task?

[derfenrirwolv]

I'm saying that Redcloak doesn't attack the OOTS, because Xykon would kill him if he did.

I'm a little curious as to what you think xykons motivation is... for risking the phylactery? Defeating Xykons foes when HE wants to kill them personally, For ruining their chances of getting a good aligned person to open the gates?

[Leecros]

Teleport 2 miles out and fly in. Seriously, this is NOT that hard, why is everyone trying to make it out to be some impossible task?

even if it wouldn't be that difficult, Redcloak still needs Xykon for The Plan, at that point there was no chance of Redcloak even thinking of betraying Xykon...




as for why Redcloak & Friends left instead of killing the Oots? Why wouldn't he? The Gate was destroyed there's no reason for them to stick around, and unlike Xykon who kills people for fun, Redcloak tends to only do it when necessary. At that point all Redcloak sees is the goal(up until Azure City). Since the destruction of Durokan's Gate he didn't really care what happened there anymore and proceed with moving his goals forward. Shortsighted? probably, but there it is.

[JoeSkull]

I'm a little curious as to what you think xykons motivation is... for risking the phylactery? Defeating Xykons foes when HE wants to kill them personally, For ruining their chances of getting a good aligned person to open the gates?

take your pick. Xykon kills people just becuase he gets bored, imagine the rampage he would go on if he had a reason :P

[FeanorFireHeart]

wow Leecros, before I never would consider it but your post inspired an idea. After all that has happened up to now, I think redcloak has good reason to betray Xykon. He also has a nigh unstoppable army to help with his deity's plan. Perhaps foreshadowing?

[RndmNumGen]

The Gate was destroyed there's no reason for them to stick around

Except the gate wasn't destroyed at that point.

[factotum]

And Redcloak et al. had no idea the good guys were stupid enough to hit the self-destruct rune. Mind you, that perhaps reinforces the "get away" idea--rather than risking everything to try and kill a bunch of do-gooders, get out and come back when they've gone and left the real prize behind!

[FujinAkari]

Rich hadn't thought of the whole story yet and at that point, Redcloak was meant to be a disposable mook (Redcloak), and later on he figured out the story totally. As he is now, yeah, I bet Redcloak could have killed them all and would have for the sake of the gate. Back then, he was a mook with the guy who paid his checks gone, so he ran.

Ummmm...

1) Rich said he figured out the whole story around Strip #100, so he knew who and what Redcloak was by #115.
2) No he couldn't, Reddy was maybe level 12 or 13 and the OOTS was all level 8ish. He would have killed some of them, but six 8's can take down a 12. As mentioned though, if the MitD had gotten involve it wouldn't even have been close.

[Kurald Galain]

the point is, Reddy is on his own free will and decision making at this point. he doesn't have a threat of xykon hanging over him because xykon ISN"T a threat.
This is not how the relationship between Xykon and Redcloak works at that point in the comic. Just because Reddy is afraid of how Xykon may react, it does not follow, absolutely does not follow that he will therefore be willing to attack Xykon while he's vulnerable. No, this is not the most optimal, logical, best behavior, and yes, Reddy will end up regretting this (and most likely has been regretting this for awhile). Nevertheless, this is how their relationship works, and Start of Darkness explains why.

It's psychology. Characters don't usually do what is best, most logical, and optimal for them, neither in real life, nor in a story. And Xykon is very good at certain kinds of psychology.


I'm a little curious as to what you think xykons motivation is... for risking the phylactery? Defeating Xykons foes when HE wants to kill them personally
Yes, that. I think I said so earlier in this thread: Xykon hates being upstaged, and Redcloak defeating the enemies that just defeated Xykon is precisely that.


I think redcloak has good reason to betray Xykon. He also has a nigh unstoppable army to help with his deity's plan. Perhaps foreshadowing?
An epic lich laughs at this "unstoppable" army.
The irony is that earlier, Redcloak had the ability to stop Xykon, but not the reason; now, he has a reason, but no longer has the ability. And it's all his own fault, too. Yes, it very much sucks to be Redcloak.

[derfenrirwolv]

This is not how the relationship between Xykon and Redcloak works at that point in the comic. Just because Reddy is afraid of how Xykon may react, it does not follow, absolutely does not follow that he will therefore be willing to attack Xykon while he's vulnerable.


Unless the order somehow knows about the phylactery it wouldn't be in THAT much danger/ If Redcloak lost, he'd be dead and wouldn't have to worry. If red cloak won xykon might be ticked, but then xykon would still have the gate, his lair, and be closer to the completion of the plan than they were when they ran. Xykon wouldn't be nearly as mad as he was when O chul chucked the phylactery.



No, this is not the most optimal, logical, best behavior, and yes, Reddy will end up regretting this (and most likely has been regretting this for awhile). Nevertheless, this is how their relationship works, and Start of Darkness explains why.


I have read start of darkness. I don't believe that he's acting out of fear of Xykons reaction, i said that in response to something you said above. Also

Redcloak did come back to work with Xykon because Xykon threatened to destroy the entire village. He was about to join Right eye's village before xykon came back from wherever it is he vanishes off to. Red Cloak had a chance here to make a decision free of that threat of compulsion... and didn't take it. Yes, mostly because he doesn't want to admit that he was wrong to kill right eye.



It's psychology. Characters don't usually do what is best, most logical, and optimal for them, neither in real life, nor in a story. And Xykon is very good at certain kinds of psychology.

The poster, who may or may not be familiar with D&D, was asking about the feisability of the fight. IMHO, given their apparent levels, Reddy should have been able to smackdown the order in 3 rounds, tops.




Yes, that. I think I said so earlier in this thread: Xykon hates being upstaged, and Redcloak defeating the enemies that just defeated Xykon is precisely that.

Have we ever seen xykon upstaged?

[Oslecamo]

The poster, who may or may not be familiar with D&D, was asking about the feisability of the fight. IMHO, given their apparent levels, Reddy should have been able to smackdown the order in 3 rounds, tops.


You forget the law of action economy. Despite the level advantage, the order has a lot more actions, allowing them to set up actions to disrupt his spellcasting (and redcloack doesn't seem to have that much of an AC as a naked paladin with an improvised weapon was enough to make him run away like a little girl). Add in the possibility he would've get disarmed of his holy symbol/phylactry by the experienced order of the stick, and he really doesn't want to get on the frontline.

[Doug Lampert]

You forget the law of action economy. Despite the level advantage, the order has a lot more actions, allowing them to set up actions to disrupt his spellcasting (and redcloack doesn't seem to have that much of an AC as a naked paladin with an improvised weapon was enough to make him run away like a little girl). Add in the possibility he would've get disarmed of his holy symbol/phylactry by the experienced order of the stick, and he really doesn't want to get on the frontline.

Agreed: RedCloak is NOT a CoDzilla. He doesn't melee which is a CoDzilla strongpoint, he doesn't particularly buff, we've never seen him quicken a spell or use any sort of Divine MetaMagic.

He's a Cleric whose most common combat spells are BLASTING spells followed by summon monsters.

Level 15 blasting cleric against 6 level 9 or so characters. Are those odds you want to bet the future of your race on?

Seriously. Given the way RC fights he wouldn't stand a chance. Action economy is the just the icing on the cake. And RC fighting is betting the farm that he can take the entire order with a single spell, right after one of them took X, it makes sense only if he's SURE he can win.

[derfenrirwolv]

You forget the law of action economy. Despite the level advantage, the order has a lot more actions, allowing them to set up actions to disrupt his spellcasting (and redcloack doesn't seem to have that much of an AC as a naked paladin with an improvised weapon was enough to make him run away like a little girl). Add in the possibility he would've get disarmed of his holy symbol/phylactry by the experienced order of the stick, and he really doesn't want to get on the frontline.

No, I didn't. Its pretty clear why. As i previously stated, Redcloak only needs to cast 1 spell (blasphemy) to be on even footing with the oots, with no saves allowed. No one is standing next to him, or even paying attention to him really. Roy MIGHT be able to hold a partial charge to try and interupt with 1d3+ strength damage, but even in oots redcloak should make that concentration check.

[Knaight]

But Redcloak doesn't know how tough the order is, so there is no reason to expect him to do that. He just saw them drop Xykon, so he may well assume they are beyond the point where Blasphemy is a good idea, at which point the tactics he would default to (as shown by what he does elsewhere) would get him killed. The MiTD could change that drastically, but the MiTD isn't exactly the most brilliant, and could be difficult to control even if it something as basic as "kill them".

[derfenrirwolv]

But Redcloak doesn't know how tough the order is, so there is no reason to expect him to do that. He just saw them drop Xykon, so he may well assume they are beyond the point where Blasphemy is a good idea, at which point the tactics he would default to (as shown by what he does elsewhere) would get him killed. The MiTD could change that drastically, but the MiTD isn't exactly the most brilliant, and could be difficult to control even if it something as basic as "kill them".

He's been watching the order in the crystal ball with picture in picture, and he's seen them run away from a few dozen goblins. He should have a rough idea of what he's getting into.

I can definitely see WHY he would run away. But i think if he'd stayed and he'd prepared for combat.. at all.. he could have trounced them.

[Beorn080]

There is a very simple reason for running, and I am AMAZED no one has mentioned it yet.

To use THAT gate, they need a Good aligned person to touch it. V and Belkar are out, Roy and Durkon would probably make any save that wasn't save or die and high end, Haley would have hoofed it out of there, and Elan has plot armor thicker then the Great Wall.

Given that, it made much more sense to run away, rebuild, and find a different gate that didn't have such annoying abjurations on it, especially with a half dozen decently strong adventurers in there.

Edit: I forgot to mention that he would probably need to kill them outright to be safe.

[moscatabaco]

As most people have pointed out, redcloak didn't KNOW the level of the OotS. As none have pointed out, after seeing what happened to Xykon, Roy could simply throw him into it too. Even if he had the time to cast blasphemy on him, the shoeless god of war would had that round to attemp the same.

[factotum]

There is a very simple reason for running, and I am AMAZED no one has mentioned it yet.

To use THAT gate, they need a Good aligned person to touch it. V and Belkar are out, Roy and Durkon would probably make any save that wasn't save or die and high end, Haley would have hoofed it out of there, and Elan has plot armor thicker then the Great Wall.

Given that, it made much more sense to run away, rebuild, and find a different gate that didn't have such annoying abjurations on it, especially with a half dozen decently strong adventurers in there.


Come on--you're telling me that they couldn't find some good-aligned schmo to do their dirty work? Heck, with a bit of lateral thinking they could just hire somebody Good to come and touch the seal with some story about it being for the good of the world, or something. It's not like Xykon only had goblins, ogres and other obviously Evil types to work with--he hired Nale, after all, and I'm sure a similar device could be used here.

Oh, and your description of the Order is all very well, but I doubt Redcloak and Xykon would have managed to get that much information about them in the few days' acquaintance they had--they didn't have the benefit of 700+ strips of character development to base their assessments on.

[derfenrirwolv]

There is a very simple reason for running, and I am AMAZED no one has mentioned it yet.

To use THAT gate, they need a Good aligned person to touch it. V and Belkar are out, Roy and Durkon would probably make any save that wasn't save or die and high end, Haley would have hoofed it out of there, and Elan has plot armor thicker then the Great Wall.

Given that, it made much more sense to run away, rebuild, and find a different gate that didn't have such annoying abjurations on it, especially with a half dozen decently strong adventurers in there.

Edit: I forgot to mention that he would probably need to kill them outright to be safe.

ahem

I'm a little curious as to what you think xykons motivation is... for risking the phylactery? Defeating Xykons foes when HE wants to kill them personally, For ruining their chances of getting a good aligned person to open the gates?



As most people have pointed out, redcloak didn't KNOW the level of the OotS.

And once again, he had more than enough information to eyeball it.



As none have pointed out, after seeing what happened to Xykon, Roy could simply throw him into it too. Even if he had the time to cast blasphemy on him, the shoeless god of war would had that round to attemp the same.

With a -4 to the grapple check, and probably a lower bab than redcloak, and without the brainpower to think beyond stabbing, AND after fighting the distraction to kill the other remaining goblins... none of which apply that easily to belkar at that point, and redcloak (who'd been watching him on the crystal ball) knew that.

[Ancalagon]

Come on--you're telling me that they couldn't find some good-aligned schmo to do their dirty work? Heck, with a bit of lateral thinking they could just hire somebody Good to come and touch the seal with some story about it being for the good of the world, or something.

Yes, this would be the simple solution: Kill the guardians of the sigils yourself, then post something:

"Wanted: Adventurers with a pure heart.

Evil Lich threatens The World.

Go to this Dungeon and hack your way through his evil Minions. Unlock the Sigils of Warding, that some nice Wizard put there to protect the world.

Unlock the Sigil that keeps the Gate of Evil Lich destruction closed! Foil his plan! He killed my Family, that mean guy.

High Reward!"

So, just wait in the basement until the Schmucks have unlocked the gate. Come out and laugh at them. Shoot Maximised Meteor Swarm at them. Laugh again.

Why didn't it happen? Well, duh, if it did, the story would have been over. Apart from that... wasn't it very much Xykon's plan? If it wasn't for some overly chatty teenager-goblin who overheard some overly chatty Xykon, it would have worked quite perfectly.

Now, they left to come back shortly after Xykon had regenerated and to finish what they started - with the next bunch of adventurers. But SOMEONE blew up the gate in the meantime. Who said Xykon and Redcloak would have left for good without the Dungeon being blown to pieces?

[Kurald Galain]

"Wanted: Adventurers with a pure heart.
You forgot "wink wink".

Redcloak is not a fool. Just because it is possible for him to have won the battle against the order, doesn't make it likely enough for him to try it.

Furthermore, Redcloak is a planner: before attacking, his method is careful strategizing first and ensuring he has a big advantage. Xykon is the one who charges in without thinking of the consequences.

Blasphemy is not a "win button" given the relative levels of Redcloak and the Order: dazing and weakening isn't enough to win against six adventurers, and the spell doesn't affect Belkar at all. More importantly, Redcloak doesn't know this. He doesn't know the exact level or alignment of the Order, he just knows that they've just defeated his master, who is definitely stronger than he is.

[Ancalagon]

You forgot "wink wink".

Good points. He wants the stupid ones after all. ;)

[Forealms]

2) No he couldn't, Reddy was maybe level 12 or 13 and the OOTS was all level 8ish. He would have killed some of them, but six 8's can take down a 12. As mentioned though, if the MitD had gotten involve it wouldn't even have been close.

Redcloak would have to be a minimum of level 13 to cast disintegrate (via the Destruction domain), as he is seen using in SoD. His level was likely higher, as he was implied post-Time Skip to be able to cast True Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) (explicitly says 17th level, though the OotS themselves might not be the most accurate source in this case). Apart from Xykon's tower and the Battle of Azure City (though admittedly these would be high XP situations), there have been little to no challenges to Redcloak and company. The mentioned examples are probably not worth enough to earn 4 levels of XP, probably not 3 either, and maybe 2 in a pinch. This would put Redcloak's level at approximately 14 or 15 at the time of his first fight against the Order of the Stick.

NOTE: As an aside, he was definitely at level 15 to do 15d6 points of damage with Blade Barrier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html).

According to the most recent Class and Level Geekery thread, the OotS were most likely 11th level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) at the time of facing Xykon in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

This is not really an argument for or against, just trying to make the numbers as accurate as possible :smallsmile:

I will also apologize if I seem to jump around a bit, I'm mostly just listing the evidence as I find it.

[Faceist]

Have we ever seen xykon upstaged?
Start of Darkness, the fight with Eugene's master. Insulted then smacked down by a wizard = "Please forgive me! Here..." *thump, thump, squish* It's probably safe to say he does not like being upstaged.

I still like the explanation offered earlier in the thread, that Redcloak had just seen Xykon single-handedly beaten by the OOTS leader. For all he knew, he was dealing with the successors of the Order of the Scribble; a bunch of epic-level characters spec'd specifically to take out the kind of threat he posed. That's strictly from a story perspective, though, since we know the actual fact that since Mr Burlew hadn't fully formulated the villains modus operandi by this point, Redcloak wasn't much beyond yer average mook.

[Larkspur]

Redcloak saw Xykon destroyed by what was essentially a fluke accident, not by the amazing martial prowess of Roy. So I doubt he bolted just because of that. He had to actively stop the MitD from attacking, and with the MitD, his own power and the remaining mooks it shouldn't have been too hard to take out the Order. Plus he was perfectly willing to nearly get killed trying to capture the Azure City Gate rather than call a retreat there, so however logical it might be, I don't think it's consistent for him to retreat rather than defend this Gate if he thought Team Evil risked losing it. They went to an awful lot of trouble capturing it, after all. People died.

However, he would have had no way of knowing that the Order would self-destruct the dungeon. Either a) they knew what the Gate was, in which case self-destructing the dungeon would be insane (and retreating rather than making them think they might lose the battle could actually prevent them from self-destructing the dungeon to keep the Gate out of his hands) or b) they were random adventurers on a dungeon crawl, in which case they were there to loot the dungeon and self-destructing it before they'd gone through all the rooms for treasure would be counter-productive.

Either way, why risk a fight, however good the odds, when he could just go away, wait for Xykon to regenerate, and come back and retake the dungeon with full firepower?

[Ancalagon]

We also have it on pretty good authority that Redcloak can be quite a coward in some situations. Usually, he's pretty brave and does not fear a fight - but if the situation is right, he has as much spine as a jellyfish...

[Knaight]

Redcloak saw Xykon destroyed by what was essentially a fluke accident, not by the amazing martial prowess of Roy.

Redcloak saw the sword be shattered, at which point Roy threw Xykon into the gate. Which could be interpreted as a fluke, or as the actions of someone who knew what was going to happen. Sure, he was scrying them acting unprofessional, but Scribble did the same thing, and look what they managed, both interpretations were significantly probable. Add to that Redcloak being a coward, its no surprise he bolted.

[Larkspur]

Which could be interpreted as a fluke, or as the actions of someone who knew what was going to happen. Sure, he was scrying them acting unprofessional, but Scribble did the same thing, and look what they managed, both interpretations were significantly probable.

But even Roy had known what would happen, that just proves he knew the gate was warded against evil and powerful enough to blow up Xykon. It doesn't make Roy powerful, it just means you don't want to get in touch range lest he chuck you in too. Remember, Redcloak didn't just see them acting unprofessional, he saw how often they needed to rest and heal after fighting threats of known strength. So he'd have a pretty good assessment of their level as well as their general knowledge.


Add to that Redcloak being a coward, its no surprise he bolted.

Except he's not a physical coward. He was perfectly willing to make what he thought would be a futile attack on the Sapphire Guard the day he met Xykon, he was willing to risk dying in an avalanche before the MitD suggested sending some hobgoblins instead, he was happy to duel Miko, he got in that asinine duel with the Azurite cleric just to prove a point, he ran straight into a room of ghostly paladins that were kicking Xykon's ass and never suggested a retreat, he went charging after Hinjo, and he stuck around to help Xykon against SuperV. He's normally circumspect (for a given value of circumspect that incorporates being a apocalypse-inducing revolutionary), but he's as brave as any of the characters who don't pick fights just for the hell of it- Haley or Durkon, say.

He's arguably a moral coward, but that's an argument for him not abandoning the Gate in a crisis- his great vice (if vice it is) lies in a tendency to refuse to abandon a position once he's invested time and lives in it, not in a readiness to retreat.

[Niveus Candidus]

Could he defeat them:

He was an APL+4 encounter for the party that still featured some mook/add/minion support and potentially the MitD. So yeah, he could have defeated them. Heck, some of the party was already incapacitated or severely crippled by the time of his potential entry into the fray, he could have done it without too much effort

Would he defeat them:

Unlikely with the tactics he has displayed, his lack of visible preparation and buffs as well as the short list of magic items (Does he even wear armor?) we know him to possess. Disregarding the obvious plot invincibility the protagonists had, Redcloak simply does not grasp the powers of his own class. Once he even alluded that divine magic weak. Like all OoTS characters, he is suboptimally built for the benefit of the storyline and comedy.

Why he ran:

He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day! Or, as Demosthenes is alleged to have put it: "The man who runs away may fight again." I cannot imagine why Redcloak would put himself, or the Phylactery, at risk just to kill a few player characters. None of his plans were ruined, just delayed. Likewise, he wasn't defending the gate--he didn't know the Order would cause thrice cursed thing to implode.

A tactical retreat until his master was revived was the most logical course of action. More over, we have seen that Redcloak does not age at the standard rate and is a remarkably patient villain. At worst, his view of the situation was that he had suffered a minor set back that would be corrected with time.

[King of Nowhere]

Keep also in mind that Redcloak had probably a suboptimal spell choice for the figth. He had been in a dungeon without figthing for months, and he used many of his spell slots for spells that werent't combat oriented (we've seen in one of the strips that he kept prepared a "speack with dead").
He knew the oots was coming, but he probably figured they would still take a few days to reach the final room.
Then the oots bypassed a few levels thanks to celia, and Redcloak was forced to figth without having prepared many figth-oriented spells. Maybe he could have won the figth with the rigth spells, but with a suboptimal spell selection, he was probably going to get his ass kicked.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's another point...

Redcloak and Xykon didn't need the Dungeon of Dorukan; it's mostly an irrelevant piece of underground real estate. What they needed was (1) some good guy to open the gate, and (2) to cast their big ritual. However, #1 was obviously no longer going to work because of Haley's actions, and #2 requires Xykon to be present.

So assuming Redcloak wasn't counting on Elan detonating the entire friggin' dungeon, he had nothing to lose and everything to gain by lying low for awhile waiting for Xykon to regrow.

[Math_Mage]

1) Class & Level Geekery puts OotS at level 11 at this point; Redcloak is <15, since his Blade Barrier did 15d6 dmg after all the work he did in Xykon's lair and Azure City. No way he didn't level for all that time.
2) He may have drained his spells quite a bit during the actual fight. We miss out on anything he does (except Bolster Undead), but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything.

All this discussion is moot, of course, since MitD would massacre the OotS. Which is why we return to Redcloak's psychology.

[factotum]

1) Class & Level Geekery puts OotS at level 11 at this point; Redcloak is <15, since his Blade Barrier did 15d6 dmg after all the work he did in Xykon's lair and Azure City. No way he didn't level for all that time.


Nice theory, which falls down on one crucial point: the *maximum* damage Blade Barrier can do is 15d6. All that proves is that Redcloak was at least level 15 when he cast it, not that he couldn't be higher level than that!

[calar]

I rather doubt it, but he would have given them a run for their money. At the time of the fight, the order was all around level 10-12. A party of 6 level 12 PCs should be able to take on a level ~17 cleric if they all attacked at once and had time to prepare/plan. Granted it would be very difficult, but certainly not unheard of.

[Saph]

Best estimate on the levels in this fight are, as Math Mage points out, about 11 for the OOtS and around 14 for Redcloak (we don't see him cast any 8th-level spells until well after the Dungeon of Dorukan, AFAIK).

So let's say 6 level 11s against 1 level 14. With that in mind, Redcloak would have been slaughtered due to the action economy.

Added to that is the fact that Redcloak, as mentioned, is something of a coward - he does fine when he's got other people backing him up, but when things suddenly go wrong and he's left on his own his first reaction is to run away (as demonstrated in this fight, as well as his duel with O-Chul).

[derfenrirwolv]

Granted it would be very difficult, but certainly not unheard of.

No, but it would require

Planning, coordination, dedication, and EVERYONE to adhere to group tactics instead of doing their own thing. And a wizard. The order didn't have the latter for the hypothetical Right with Redcloak, and have NEVER possessed any of the former.

For a low risk solution, reddy could have run down the hallway, and then sent summoned monsters down the hall to crush them.

[Niveus Candidus]

My thoughts once again ...

Could: Yes
Would: Probably not
Should: ... Why?

Before we examine Redcloak's psychology for running any further, I would like some insight on why he would bother putting the phylactery and himself at even a modicum of risk. Even Bony Bone McBoneson (Of the clan McBone), who is not known for his forgiving nature, didn't fault his actions.

[Doug Lampert]

No, but it would require

Planning, coordination, dedication, and EVERYONE to adhere to group tactics instead of doing their own thing. And a wizard. The order didn't have the latter for the hypothetical Right with Redcloak, and have NEVER possessed any of the former.

For a low risk solution, reddy could have run down the hallway, and then sent summoned monsters down the hall to crush them.

ASSUMING he had prepared bunches of summons spells, just which monsters off the summon monster 7 and lower lists do you expect to "crush" a level 11 or higher party of six? For that matter, which of them do you expect to seriously inconvienence such a party? For that matter, what's to stop the party from retreating themselves for a couple of rounds and watch your monsters go POOF as their whole <15 round duration gets used up?

For that matter a single Magic circle against evil is complete protection against this method of "crushing the order" since Reddy can't cast good spells and non-good summoned creatures can't enter the circle and summoned good creatures causes the summon spell to be a good spell.

Maybe they're supposed to be all die laughing? Cause that's the only threat I see here.

Say he spends 5 rounds summoning, getting off 2 SM VII and 3 SM VI and then sends the results in all at once. Just what set of monsters are you getting that you seriously expect to actually win a fight and kill the order with all those spells you've just wasted? I'll be nice and assume that no one in the order prepared protection from evil or magic circle against evil.

I'd like to hear just what monsters you think will work. Because summon monsters rarely get monsters more than a CR or two above the spell level. So you're looking at a patrol encounter more or less, better if you use lower level monsters and get groups, but then they won't all fit in your corridor and can be blocked at a chock point (like that same corridor) while the duration expires.

Summon monster is typically used more as a way to get mooks to detect traps or as a way to get a creature with a particular and useful spell-like than as a serious combat spell.

[Beorn080]

I'd like to hear just what monsters you think will work. Because summon monsters rarely get monsters more than a CR or two above the spell level. So you're looking at a patrol encounter more or less, better if you use lower level monsters and get groups, but then they won't all fit in your corridor and can be blocked at a chock point (like that same corridor) while the duration expires.


Bone Devil's. At will Wall of Ice and Dimensional Anchor. It was already shown that the order had problems dealing with Wall of Ice already. I'm fairly sure Reddy could have figured something out in 12 minutes on how to deal with them.

[Adama]

Before we examine Redcloak's psychology for running any further, I would like some insight on why he would bother putting the phylactery and himself at even a modicum of risk. Even Bony Bone McBoneson (Of the clan McBone), who is not known for his forgiving nature, didn't fault his actions.

Exactly. As far as Redcloak knows, there is NO percentage for him in sticking around at that point. Best case, the Order gets bored after clearing out the dungeon and leaves, allowing Redcloak and Xykon to return. Worst case, they stick around and occupy the place, so Redcloak has to come back later after his epic sorcerer lich boss regenerates to kill them all then. Sticking around for a less than certain fight would be not just unnecessary, but stupid if there were even a one in ten chance of losing it.

[pjackson]

Assuming Redcloak decided it was a good idea to fight, and assuming he had Blasphemy prepared, he would still have a problem. The OotS were split up. Roy, Haley and Elan were probably in range, but the others probably were not. (It was a big room and Blasphemy is 40' radius centred on the caster.) If he does cast Blasphemy immediately there would be a possibility of durkon casting silence on Belkar and Belkar then charging Redcloak. Or Durkon casting Remove Paralysis on V (having dealt with the ghouls) and V blasting Redcloak.

Redcloak could move into the centre of the room to cast blasphemy, but Belkar would be immune (which he might well know from Xykon's scrying). Getting into melee with a melee specialist who has likely been buffed up by a cleric and a wizard might seem too much of a risk to him.

The risk meant the sensible plan was for Redcloak to retreat. He had nothing much to gain and a lot to lose.

[Larkspur]

Except the MitD could have curb-stomped the Order. You guys keep talking as if Reddy would have to fight single-handed, but he wouldn't- in fact he could probably have sat on his hands and laughed while the MitD plowed through the PCs. Assuming the MitD didn't decide to make friends with them and have a tea party, but Redcloak and Xykon at least think he's capable of doing something useful despite his personality or they wouldn't be dragging him along.


Even Bony Bone McBoneson (Of the clan McBone), who is not known for his forgiving nature, didn't fault his actions.

I don't think this is actually as indicative of sound strategy as it might seem. Xykon doesn't care what happens as long as a) he's not bored and b) he doesn't risk regenerating in the belly of a sea serpent, primarily because a again) endlessly regenerating and getting endlessly dissolved by stomach acid would be boring. He doesn't really care about the ritual; it's just something to do. So he's not much bothered by major setbacks like losing a gate for no good reason (see Lirian's Gate, treants, fire; Soon's Gate, Miko, sword), because he's nearly as happy to be on another Gate quest as he is to actually hold the Gate. Xykon is about the journey, not the destination.

In fact, he was probably happier wandering around and regenerating limbs than he was lurking in Dorukan's dungeon waiting for some Good character to show up and break the Gate ward. Add to this the fact that it's more important to him to survive to LOL another day than to conduct a ritual he doesn't care about much anyway, and you could see him endorsing Redcloak's decision to bolt even if it were strategically terrible.

Which I don't think it was, but I don't rate Xykon's endorsement much.

[Saph]

Except the MitD could have curb-stomped the Order. You guys keep talking as if Reddy would have to fight single-handed, but he wouldn't- in fact he could probably have sat on his hands and laughed while the MitD plowed through the PCs. Assuming the MitD didn't decide to make friends with them and have a tea party, but Redcloak and Xykon at least think he's capable of doing something useful despite his personality or they wouldn't be dragging him along.

So far, the MitD's net contributions to Team Evil have been:

• Failing to prevent Miko from escaping
• Playing tea party with paralysed O-Chul and dead Roy
• Making O-Chul and V escape before Xykon could kill them
• Making tacos during the fight with Dorukan.

As far as we know, he hasn't meaningfully helped out Team Evil in a battle even once, and if anything he's been a liability. Redcloak would have to be pretty stupid to count on him for backup.

That makes it one ~14th level character against a full party of ~11ths. The 11ths will win pretty much every time due to action advantage.

[Cisturn]

not a full party exactly, V was paralyzed and Roy was without his sword

[Saph]

Eh, I'll run four 11th-level characters against a single 14th-level opponent any day and expect to win. Four standard actions to their one makes a battle pretty one-sided.

[King of Nowhere]

Except the MitD could have curb-stomped the Order. You guys keep talking as if Reddy would have to fight single-handed, but he wouldn't- in fact he could probably have sat on his hands and laughed while the MitD plowed through the PCs. Assuming the MitD didn't decide to make friends with them and have a tea party

I think you just answered yourself.
i don't think anyone can doubt the mitd could destroy the order, especially when they were still level 11 - heck, unless he's particularly weak to spells he's surely much stronger than Redcloak, and may even be a match for Xykon-, but he can go out of control and side with them too.
I think Xykon and Redcloak are unwilling to use him as a weapon unless for an extreme emergency because it will be a HUGE risk.
Which brings again to the point of "why taking that risk?", to which the answer is "no reason".

[Larkspur]

but he can go out of control and side with them too.

Eh, that was a non-risk at that point. It's a risk now only because he's buddy-buddy with O-Chul, but at that point he didn't know anyone on the good side from Adam. He's so suggestible he'll follow virtually any order from someone he knows and trusts, and he's not going to have any incentive not to hurt the people who broke into his home and murdered a ton of goblins. The fact that Xykon is not the rightful owner of the dungeon is a level of moral reasoning about six miles about the MitD's head.

Conceivably he might fail to attack because he's just not instinctively very aggressive, but Redcloak could probably trick him into it ala the demon roach with "Stomp"- remember, Redcloak knows what he is and being Redcloak has doubtless read up on all this attacks- and worst case scenario he'd at least serve as a diversion. The Order would still have to deal with whatever idiotic thing he was doing, and even if they could persuade him not to attack them, I'd say the chances of persuading him to attack Redcloak were 0.

It's more likely Team Evil just didn't want to waste the big reveal on lame opponents who were most likely going to bugger off and leave them the dungeon in five minutes anyway.

[derfenrirwolv]

ASSUMING he had prepared bunches of summons spells, just which monsters off the summon monster 7 and lower lists do you expect to "crush" a level 11 or higher party of six?

2 bone devils. V's paralyzed, Roy doesn't have a weapon, its damage reduction of 10/good will render the parties other attacks almost meaningless, Its AC of 25 will keep durkon, haley, and elan from consistantly landing blows, its fear aura should send belkar at least running away, spell resistance of 21 will stop almost half of durkons spells, and poison will quickly get haley and elan out of the fight.






For that matter, which of them do you expect to seriously inconvienence such a party? For that matter, what's to stop the party from retreating themselves for a couple of rounds and watch your monsters go POOF as their whole <15 round duration gets used up?

The fact that the only person capable of devising that strategy has been rendered paralyzed and can't speak.




Maybe they're supposed to be all die laughing? Cause that's the only threat I see here.


You're obviously unaware of the proper uses of summoning.



Say he spends 5 rounds summoning, getting off 2 SM VII and 3 SM VI and then sends the results in all at once. Just what set of monsters are you getting that you seriously expect to actually win a fight and kill the order with all those spells you've just wasted? I'll be nice and assume that no one in the order prepared protection from evil or magic circle against evil.

The only caster left is durkon, thats not that big of an assumption.

2 Bone devils, 3 large earth elementals = dead party.






Summon monster is typically used more as a way to get mooks to detect traps or as a way to get a creature with a particular and useful spell-like than as a serious combat spell.

By unimaginative players, sure. In combat, if you can trust your friends to keep your enemies off of you for the casting, they can be an amazing surgical implement to carve foes to peices by exploiting their specific weaknesses or by going around their invulnerabilities.

[This Troper]

I think that He might have been able to defeat the order but it would've been too much of a gamble to try it.

Anyway, since we're all talking about Redcloak here, I want to ask something that's been roaming through my mind for a while now.

Do you think that, after all the crap he's been having to endure from Xykon in the latest strips, he'll finally break? Redcloak is an antivillain by definition, he's got a great motivation, he's got a horribly sad backstory, and he's one of the best - if not the best in my opinion- characters in the whole comic. So what do you think would happen if, after being reminded of his failures every time he looks in the mirror, after being treated like crap by Xykon for so many years, He finally snaps?:smallconfused::smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

I think that He might have been able to defeat the order but it would've been too much of a gamble to try it.

Anyway, since we're all talking about Redcloak here, I want to ask something that's been roaming through my mind for a while now.

Do you think that, after all the crap he's been having to endure from Xykon in the latest strips, he'll finally break? Redcloak is an antivillain by definition, he's got a great motivation, he's got a horribly sad backstory, and he's one of the best - if not the best in my opinion- characters in the whole comic. So what do you think would happen if, after being reminded of his failures every time he looks in the mirror, after being treated like crap by Xykon for so many years, He finally snaps?:smallconfused::smallconfused:

I don't think he'll ever break. Redcloak is strong on that. He's willing to sacrifice everything, including his very soul, for what he perceives as the best option for the goblin people in the long run. Taking some more crap is nothing compared to what he had to endure until now. If Redcloak is going to betray Xykon, he's going to do it for something related to the goblin people and the gates.

[Larkspur]

Do you think that, after all the crap he's been having to endure from Xykon in the latest strips, he'll finally break?

Not from that.

Xykon has been a fairly successful strategy for Redcloak- they captured one Gate even if they couldn't unseal it, nearly captured two more, sacked Azure City, disbanded the genocidal Sapphire Guard, and founded a goblin nation. Redcloak couldn't have done any of that without Xykon's firepower behind him. They haven't managed to pull off the ritual yet, but barring that he's gotten everything he wanted out of their partnership.

Granted the eye thing was nasty, but Redcloak and Xykon have a deal and Redcloak broke it by stalling them in Azure City rather than going after the next gate. Technically Xykon's in the right on that one. Add to that Redcloak's sunk cost issues, the resigned forbearance and/or exasperated indulgence with which he's put up with all Xykon's crap thus far, and Team Evil's general state of overwhelming success, and I think he's extremely unlikely to protest Xykon's treatment of him.

If it becomes obvious Xykon's trying to replace him with Tsukiko, if Xykon comes back from his trip, learns about how Goblin Independence Day interrupted the phylactery search and pitches a genocidal fit, or if the Resistance are taking back the city and Xykon forces Team Evil to leave in the middle of the battle, then I think Redcloak might get upset. But he's not going to stand up to Xykon over something as trivial as his own mistreatment.