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View Full Version : Is an evil extraplanar creature considered an evil outsider?



Mystic Muse
2010-06-23, 09:39 PM
I'd imagine the answer is yes, it just applies to different creatures. However, I'd like to know before it comes up in my campaign because, if what my other group tells me is true, the BBEG of the campaign is an aspect of Tiamat. I'm asking because one of the abilities my homebrew Paladin has deals twice as much damage to evil outsiders and undead.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-23, 09:39 PM
It means Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType).

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-23, 09:45 PM
Extraplanar =/= Outsider. For example, a Human in Limbo is Extraplanar.

Also, many creatures from the Outer Planes are "Extraplanar Undead", "Extraplanar Constructs", etc. Not Outsiders.

Siosilvar
2010-06-23, 09:52 PM
Squares are rectangles. Rectangles are not all squares.

Outsiders are extraplanar. Extraplanar things are not all Outsiders (although the majority of them certainly are).

Mystic Muse
2010-06-23, 09:52 PM
Okay, thank you everyone.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-24, 01:49 AM
Squares are rectangles. Rectangles are not all squares.

Outsiders are extraplanar. Extraplanar things are not all Outsiders (although the majority of them certainly are).

Not all Outsiders are extraplanar...

Native Outsiders (Tieflings, etc), for example.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-24, 02:02 AM
Outsiders are also not extraplanar when on their home plane.

Extraplanar means you're just not on the plane you originated from.

hamishspence
2010-06-24, 02:52 AM
I've been told that for the purposes of things like Outsider Bane (evil) even evil outsiders don't necessarily qualify- they have to be "Outsiders with the evil subtype".

AslanCross
2010-06-24, 04:32 AM
Extraplanar: A creature not on its home plane.
Outsider: A creature made up, partially or entirely, of the essence of its home plane.

hamishspence
2010-06-24, 05:03 AM
Does that mean rakshasas and the like are made up partly of the essence of the Material Plane?

One thing I've noticed is that Outsiders of the Inner Planes tend not to have the Extraplanar subtype or the Native subtype.

Though that seems different in the SRD. Didn't Ravids, for example, from the Positive Energy Plane, not have the Extraplanar Subtype in the 3.5 Monster Manual?

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-24, 05:41 AM
Does that mean rakshasas and the like are made up partly of the essence of the Material Plane?
Relevant text on native outsiders:

“These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#nativeSubtype)”

Since Rakshasas likely do not have mortal anscestors, then they have some sort of strong connection to the material plane. That could include partial makeup from the material.

However, in many other cases, it is possible for a native outsider to simply be progeny of some outsider and mortal rather than having the usual “made up from their own plane” thing. Them being outsiders are just a matter of inheritance at that point. Native outsiders are just special that way. :smallwink:


One thing I've noticed is that Outsiders of the Inner Planes tend not to have the Extraplanar subtype or the Native subtype.
Native generally indicates a connection to the Material Plane. In most cases, a Native Outsider was born and raised on the material plane.

If you mean you haven’t seen Native Outsiders whose heritage extends to the Inner Planes, I suggest you take a look at Janni (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#janni). Outside of Core, there are also Genasi, which are to elementals and outsididers with elemental subtypes what tieflings and aasimar are to fiends and celestials.

As to extraplanar: since the MM assumes the creatures are being encountered on the Material Plane, if its environment lists a different plane but it does not have the extraplanar subtype, then there is a typo somewhere.


Though that seems different in the SRD. Didn't Ravids, for example, from the Positive Energy Plane, not have the Extraplanar Subtype in the 3.5 Monster Manual?
No. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) And I just checked my MM, too. No on all counts; it’s not just thanks to errata.

Also: Djinni, Efreeti, Rast, and Salammander are all appropriately subtyped in my Monster Manual. Haven’t done a comprehensive check, though, so don’t assume anything because I may have left an Inner Plane Outsider off the list.

hamishspence
2010-06-24, 06:20 AM
Maybe I was thinking of something else- it's just that I remember seeing 3.5 creatures with the Outsider Type and not either the Native or Extraplanar types.

Could have been Lumi (MM3) or something like that.

PId6
2010-06-24, 08:58 AM
Maybe I was thinking of something else- it's just that I remember seeing 3.5 creatures with the Outsider Type and not either the Native or Extraplanar types.

Could have been Lumi (MM3) or something like that.
Then they probably assumed you encounter it on its home plane. If it's outside of their home plane (PEP for Lumi), then just add the Extraplanar subtype to them.

Yora
2010-06-24, 12:18 PM
Rakshasa are a case of bad monster design. Making them evil outsiders or monstrous humanoids would both have worked much better than native outsiders. Except for planetouched, native outsiders seem like an odd concept to begin with.

hamishspence
2010-06-24, 12:43 PM
Then they probably assumed you encounter it on its home plane. If it's outside of their home plane (PEP for Lumi), then just add the Extraplanar subtype to them.

It is Lumi I was thinking of. However numerous other outsiders in the book, have in their Environment description : "their home plane" and yet are extraplanar.

All the demons and devils, for example. And the Trilloch (Negative Energy Plane)

The lumi isn't the only Outsider with neither Extraplanar nor Native:

The Astral Stalker, for example- another outsider, native to the Astral Plane- with no Extraplanar subtype.

The Reikar- Outsider, native to the Nine Hells- no extraplanar subtype.

The Visilight- Outsider, native to Mechanus- no extraplanar subtype.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-24, 03:03 PM
It is Lumi I was thinking of. However numerous other outsiders in the book, have in their Environment description : "their home plane" and yet are extraplanar.

All the demons and devils, for example. And the Trilloch (Negative Energy Plane)
Well, unlike creatures native to the Material Plane, it’s assumed that you are not likely to be encountering most outsiders in their home environment. Most adventurers only ever encounter outsiders and elementals as summoned or called creatures. So the designers added the Extraplanar subtype directly to the entries in the manual in order to ease its use as an at-table reference.

Remember, the environment line is just a home environment, and not a limit on where a creture can be encountered. Even for mundane Material natives, creatures can get moved around. Maybe a storm blew it into strange lands. Maybe it’s someone’s pet. Maybe you’re visiting the Desert Sultan’s Magically-Chilled Arctic Menagerie.


The lumi isn't the only Outsider with neither Extraplanar nor Native:

The Astral Stalker, for example- another outsider, native to the Astral Plane- with no Extraplanar subtype.

The Reikar- Outsider, native to the Nine Hells- no extraplanar subtype.

The Visilight- Outsider, native to Mechanus- no extraplanar subtype.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern.
What’s the context? If these are from sources detailing planar travel, I can see the usual, “when encountered on the Prime Material” assumption being dropped, even if only unintentionally.

Another thought: If a particular Outsider race is capable of reproduction while not on their race’s home plane, it could be possible for a significant population to develop with new members keying to the Material Plane for the purposes of the extraplanar subtype. If there’s something like that for any of the above races, it would make sense.

PId6
2010-06-24, 04:27 PM
There doesn't seem to be any pattern.
There's enough inconsistencies in WotC books that I'm hardly surprised at finding one here, and this is a fairly harmless one besides. Most of the time, the Extraplanar subtype doesn't really mean much, and when it does matter, it's pretty easy to tell whether it should be there or not (just look at the environment line).

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-06-24, 04:42 PM
Ok, despite certain creatures where they forgot, if it's not from the material plane, even the transitive planes that overlaps the material like the Plane of Shadow, are Extraplanar.

A headlouse from Faerie is extraplanar.

None of this makes you an outsider.

You can also have creatures that are an integral part of their home plane so that they have the alignment subtype as well. This however does not make them an outsider either.

A good example is the Pack Fiend, evil and extraplanar magical beast.

Elysian Thrush magical beast with the extraplanar and good subtypes.

Limbo Stalker, same deal, magical beast with chaos and extraplanar.

Etc etc. See Planar Handbook.

So to answer ops question, evil and extraplanar subtypes do not make it an outsider.

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-24, 07:05 PM
The lumi isn't the only Outsider with neither Extraplanar nor Native:

The Astral Stalker, for example- another outsider, native to the Astral Plane- with no Extraplanar subtype.

The Reikar- Outsider, native to the Nine Hells- no extraplanar subtype.

The Visilight- Outsider, native to Mechanus- no extraplanar subtype.

There doesn't seem to be any pattern.

Are those from Monster Manual 2 or a similar 3.0 book? The extraplanar subtype did not exist until 3.5.

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 03:23 AM
They are from MM3.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-25, 04:01 AM
Ah. There's one other thing I forgot to bring up.

The aspect of Tiamat does not need to eat or sleep. That's another reason I thought it might be an outsider.

Thank you for answering the questions though.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 05:04 AM
The aspect of Tiamat gets "does not need to eat or sleep" from "being part of a God" rather than "being an Outsider". She's still a Dragon.

Also, nothing natively has the extraplanar subtype. It gets it automatically whenever it visits a plane it doesn't hail from. Humans outside of the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype (unless they're planar humans, in which case they'd be extraplanar on the Material Plane). All it means is "not on its home plane", which makes it susceptible to banishment. You can't banish a devil while in Hell, for instance.

Native Outsiders can still be extraplanar. All the native subtype means is that they're semi-mortal Outsiders rather than "true" Outsiders.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-25, 09:02 AM
Hopping in to point out that everyone is native to the Transitive planes (Astral, Ethereal, Shadow), meaning nobody is extraplanar while there.

deuxhero
2010-06-25, 09:07 AM
Evil Outsiders are made of evil (well, by default, Eberron likely has a separate system)

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-06-25, 09:12 AM
Hopping in to point out that everyone is native to the Transitive planes (Astral, Ethereal, Shadow), meaning nobody is extraplanar while there.
Then why are they extraplanar while on the material plane?

Example: Shadow Mastiff and Nightwing

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 09:18 AM
Then why are they extraplanar while on the material plane?

Example: Shadow Mastiff and Nightwing

Because they're native to the Transitive Planes, not the Material Plane?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-25, 10:10 AM
If nothing was considered Extraplanar on the Material Plane, then there'd pretty much be no point of having an Extraplanar subtype in the first place.

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 11:07 AM
MM3's Astral Stalker is native to the Astral plane- and doesn't have Extraplanar Subtype listed.

That might be more a quirk of MM3 than anything else, though.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-25, 11:57 AM
Rakshasa are a case of bad monster design. Making them evil outsiders or monstrous humanoids would both have worked much better than native outsiders. Except for planetouched, native outsiders seem like an odd concept to begin with.

I actually like this thing very much. They are evil spirits, so being evil outsiders fits.

Moreover, they indulge in cannibalism and other evil activities, and seem to like luxuries, goods and the like. In other words, seem very "bound" to the material plane, their evil is their inability to raise their soul above material pleasure.

And they commit atrocities to continue this behaviour. IMO fits very well.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-25, 01:08 PM
The aspect of Tiamat gets "does not need to eat or sleep" from "being part of a God" rather than "being an Outsider". She's still a Dragon.


They're actually part of Tiamat? I wasn't aware of that. I thought that only applied to Avatars. I thought Avatars were more like the equivalent of an angel. Her servants but not actually a part of her.

So, does that mean killing her aspects affects her in some way? Or does she not really notice?

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 01:17 PM
In 4E, it actually says in Draconomicon that Aspects of Tiamat are created from her own unhatched eggs, and a lot of souls from the Maggot Pit.

in 3rd ed, Aspects in general are a "living embodiment of a small portion of the deity's (or archfiend's) life force."

They don't notice anything that happens to minor aspects. However for major aspects, like in Fiendish Codex 2, the archfiend knows everything the aspect knows- and sees what the aspect sees, and so on.

I'm not sure if deities get major Aspects other than Avatars.

However- the nondivine version of Tiamat in Manual of the Planes, with no special salient divine abilities (possibly because the book predates Deities & Demigods) may qualify as a major Aspect, like the FC2 ones.

Debihuman
2010-06-25, 01:32 PM
If you'd look at the errata for MM3, you'd note that the Astral Stalker, Lumi and Lumi Crusader have been given the Extraplanar subtype.




Page 12: Astral Stalker
The astral stalker should have the extraplanar subtype.

Page 98: Lumi
The lumi and the lumi crusader both have the extraplanar subtype.
Changes to the stat block for the lumi crusader:
Special Attacks: Spells, spell-like abilities, turn undead 8/day (+1, 2d6+7, 6th)
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +4, Will +13
The lumi crusader has the following typical cleric spells prepared: 5/6/5/4. The save DC is 15 + spell level, not 13 + spell level. Give the crusader a second divine favor spell.

It's probably an oversight with other monsters as well. Just check the errata pages on the Wizard's of the Coast's website.

Debby

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 02:51 PM
They're actually part of Tiamat? I wasn't aware of that. I thought that only applied to Avatars. I thought Avatars were more like the equivalent of an angel. Her servants but not actually a part of her.

So, does that mean killing her aspects affects her in some way? Or does she not really notice?

Aspects are portions of any sufficiently powerful creature's life force - generally you need to be an Archfiend or a member of the Celestial Host, at least, to have one.

Gods get special super-powerful Aspects called Avatars, which have a portion of their divine power. Most Aspects don't have this, and gods can have the lesser versions as well.

No, Tiamat probably neither notices nor cares if someone shanks her Aspect.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-25, 02:57 PM
No, Tiamat probably neither notices nor cares if someone shanks her Aspect.

Okay, just making sure.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-25, 06:38 PM
No, Tiamat probably neither notices nor cares if someone shanks her Aspect.

Well, she probably considers it a grave insult, at least. :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2010-06-25, 06:42 PM
Well, she probably considers it a grave insult, at least. :smallwink:

Well, I think she probably considers me killing her spawn and trying to convert chromatic dragons to the cause of good an insult as well.

Oh, and I worship Bahamut. That probably doesn't help.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-25, 06:50 PM
Well, I think she probably considers me killing her spawn and trying to convert chromatic dragons to the cause of good an insult as well.

Oh, and I worship Bahamut. That probably doesn't help.

Yeah, she probably hates you by now. :smallwink:

I had this same issue when thinking about the consequences of continuing my campaign after my group finished the Red Hand of Doom adventure. Without getting too specific, the adventure concludes with the climactic dismantlement of Tiamat's grand plans for global conquest. The only reaction I can think of is that the PCs are now on Tiamat's most wanted list (as far as any mortal creatures can be important enough for Tiamat to concern herself with). I'll be rearming the remnants of the Red Hand horde with even stronger servants of Tiamat as they redirect their energies to taking Tiamat's revenge against the party, 'cuz Tiamat's just a jerk like that. :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-06-25, 06:54 PM
Yeah, she probably hates you by now. :smallwink:


Yeah, and I'm not exactly going to make her any happier as the campaign goes on.

But, she should look on the bright side. Unlike a few others I'm not trying to wipe her from existence.

I'd tell you who and what but the response is going to be either "That's stupid" or something along the lines of "You have guts"