Star Wars Expanded universe. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RabbitHoleLost

2010-06-24, 12:12 AM

Have you read the Republic Commando novels?
Karen Traviss gets a whole lot of crap ( mostly because she's pretty high on her horse, if you ask me- she doesn't allow fanfiction of her work, but, really, isn't she just a glorified fanfiction writer?), and she can't write a good female character to save her life, but I'm a huge, huge fan of this series. Even if she threw a huge temper tantrum and quit the fandom when they retconned Mandalorians to be a...peaceful nation in the CW series.
That's another thing that gets a lot of poo flung in its direction, when, really, its a fairly decent series. Horribly cheesey jokes, but its expands on the Clone Wars, and the clones in general, in an amusing manner.

Honestly, I haven't much broken in to the EU myself, but I'm getting ready to, since I've almost reached the end of the RC series o.o
I'm also really curious about the comics...has anyone here in the Playground read them?
And TOR. When TOR comes out, I will be scarce anywhere in life.

Tavar

2010-06-24, 12:20 AM

I'd suggest the Thrawn Series, as well as the X-Wing squadron books. Possibly I, Jedi as well, though it depends on what you think of Corran Horn from the X-Wing books.

Moff Chumley

2010-06-24, 12:44 AM

The Thrawn books, as has been mentioned, are easily the best story set in the Star Wars universe.

Tirian

2010-06-24, 12:52 AM

The Thrawn books, as has been mentioned, are easily the best story set in the Star Wars universe.

There is no Lucas only Zahn.

Platinum_Mongoose

2010-06-24, 12:52 AM

Philistine

2010-06-24, 12:58 AM

Like many other EU writers, Timothy Zahn criminally underestimates the scale and scope of a galactic civilization. Even so, the Thrawn books are generally considered to be among the better ones out there.

The Kevin J. Anderson-authored books are generally considered to be very, very bad. As in, these are not books for reading, these are books for laying down and avoiding bad.

For everything else, YMM (and probably will) V. I find Stackpole (X-Wing) to be readable enough, at least until "Jedi creep" (some EU authors seem to think that every SW series needs at least one central protagonist to be a Jedi) sets in toward the end of the third book. On the other hand, there's also quite a bit of EU stuff (notably Traviss) that I personally just avoid due to the whole Superman(dalorians) thing - I agree that the Jedi needed to be taken down a peg (see "Jedi creep"); but making Mandalorians even more "special" than the Jedi doesn't actually solve that problem IMO.

Tavar

2010-06-24, 01:04 AM

Note that at least for the Stackpole, he doesn't actually have jedi, simply force sensitives. Well, except for the book I, Jedi, but that's about someone becoming a jedi, so it's a bit different.

Platinum_Mongoose

2010-06-24, 01:05 AM

Oh, and avoid the New Jedi Order if you enjoy... y'know... sanity. Just read the summaries on Wookieepedia so you go into the Legacy comics knowing the state of the Galaxy. The Clone Wars comics are also worth reading, possibly before Legacy since they lay the groundwork for at least two characters.

Tirian

2010-06-24, 01:22 AM

I presume one can still find emulators for it because it is still so well spoken of, but TIE Fighter gets listed among the best PC games ever despite being a fifteen year-old combat sim. I agree that it really manages to be immersive without a lot of fancy video cutscenes. Also, it has you working under Thrawn's command, which is naturally cool.

While I'm talking about Star Wars games that everyone should experience, another sample that is even more obscure but even more amazing is DroidWorks. Without fear of contradiction, I will say that this is the most awesome use of an FPS engine ever devised.

Bouregard

2010-06-24, 01:29 AM

Read anything written by Timothy Zahn. Start with the Thrawn trilogy. It easily dwarfs a good part of the original movies. Then start reading anything else with Thrawn inside. Also pure gold. Oh and try to read the english books. I started with the german first... brrrhhh worst translation ever... You know if something is wrong if they translate X-Wing....

Also worth mentioning: Force Unleashed. ITs a pretty funy game

Klose_the_Sith

2010-06-24, 01:29 AM

While I'm talking about Star Wars games that everyone should experience, another sample that is even more obscure but even more amazing is DroidWorks. Without fear of contradiction, I will say that this is the most awesome use of an FPS engine ever devised.

Klose gets down on one knee and opens a small box. Inside it is a ring with the power of heart.

Will ... will you please be mine? Forever and ever and ever?

Chaelos

2010-06-24, 01:34 AM

This is going to vary wildly from person to person, but here's my two cents anyway.

My favorite SW games: KOTOR 1, Republic Commando, Battlefront I/II, Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/Jedi Outcast (if you can find working versions for newer computers), TIE Fighter/X-Wing/X-Wing Alliance, Rebellion (more of a guilty pleasure--I'm aware of the horrifying game design flaws, but I still enjoy it). If you consider LEGO Star Wars "Expanded Universe", it's a lot of fun too.

SW games I didn't like: KOTOR 2, Jedi Academy, Empire at War, Force Commander, X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, the Rogue Squadron Games, The Force Unleashed.

My favorite SW books: The Thrawn Trilogy (Timothy Zahn, whose books Allegiance and Specter of the Past/Vision of the Future are also very good, but the Thrawn Trilogy surpasses everything else in Star Wars canon except Episodes IV and V), the Wraith and Rogue Squadron books (Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston), Dark Lord: The Rise of Vader (James Luceno), Darth Bane: Path of Destruction (Drew Karpyshyn), Shadows of the Empire (Steve Perry--the game was also a lot of fun, but unless you have a Nintendo-64 lying around, it'll be hard to play), Shatterpoint (Matthew Stover, whose novelization of Episode III was also very good), Tales of the Bounty Hunters (except the IG-88 story), The Paradise Snare/The Hutt Gambit/Rebel Dawn (A.C. Crispin--these focus on a young Han Solo, and are an excellent trilogy). There are others, but these are the gems in my opinion (I recall also liking the Black Fleet Crisis, but that was many years ago). Anything by Timothy Zahn, Aaron Allston or Matthew Stover is going to be very readable.

SW books I didn't like: The New Jedi Order Series, The Crystal Star, the Legacy of the Force books, the Dark Nest Crisis, the entire Republic Commando series, The Courtship of Princess Leia, anything by Kevin J. Anderson or Karen Traviss. I also didn't like I, Jedi very much, despite liking Stackpole's other work.

Attilargh

2010-06-24, 01:46 AM

I'm also madly in love with the Legacy comics. They take all of the themes present in the films and ratchet them up to eleven.
You forgot the Skywalker angst. That's up to eleven too, and is one of the factors that makes Cade one of the least likable protagonists I've read. Another is being a general Jerkass.

You note the galaxy is lived-in and unhappy, but I'd personally describe it as downright grimy and utterly wretched. Nothing turns out well and nothing is funny, only SRS BSNS. The only times the series managed to drag itself out of this mire of GRIMDARK was when Ostrander took a short break and others got to write about the few decent people in the universe, like that one Knight with a beard or the Alliance fleet.

All in all, I found Legacy to be a very nineties (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero) take on Star Wars, which is a shame, because I like the Era a whole lot.

Platinum_Mongoose

2010-06-24, 01:58 AM

You forgot the Skywalker angst. That's up to eleven too, and is one of the factors that makes Cade one of the least likable protagonists I've read. Another is being a general Jerkass.

You note the galaxy is lived-in and unhappy, but I'd personally describe it as downright grimy and utterly wretched. Nothing turns out well and nothing is funny, only SRS BSNS.

Well... yeah. It's a much darker take on the setting, which is, in turn, a very nineties view of Star Wars. (See also my above post about Zahn best capturing the essence of Star-Wars-ness.) It only stopped being darker and edgier when Lucas took it back to kid-friendly for the (majority of the) prequels.

I don't see Cade as a Jerkass, per se. I'd rank him on par with Mal from Firefly in terms of general disillusionment and bitterness at the world around him. Except that he's Mal in a world where there's magic, and said magic is inherently tied to his moral compass. (Read: We are all doomed.) Overall, I think that a) shades of grey are a good addition to the Star Wars universe, having only been touched on previously with Luke's slight brush with the Dark Side in Return of the Jedi, and b) making the world a darker place in general raises the stakes. To me, as a devoted Star Wars fan, seeing the universe I've wanted to live in since I was 4 teeter on the brink of self-destruction really makes it feel epic on a level that's personal to me.

If you ask me, Ostrander wins at Star Wars.

Superglucose

2010-06-24, 02:15 AM

I love anything in the Old Republic... be it Tales of the Jedi, Knights 1 and 2, or even the Knights of the Old Republic comic. I love the way the Jedi are portrayed: powerful, but beatable.

I especially like, in the Knights of the Old Republic series of games, like how Revan's best qualities are not of the Force at all. He's a brilliant tactician who plays remarkably subtle games with what he does. Malachor V to kill or convert all the Jedi who followed him to the dark side of the force, careful surgical strikes during the Jedi Civil War.

(this is hinted at in KotoR 1 and fully explained in KotoR 2... Malak was a destroyer, Revan was a conquerer, but even in Knights 1 there's the fateful scene in Kashyyyk where the computer asks you that one question, and the answer to "How do you save these people?" is "let them be attacked so they are shaken from their complacency")

I really appreciate the Old Republic series for what they did with the morality of the setting. The original trilogy has every character from Vader to Yoda harping about how you are either light-side or dark-side, and you can't be aspects of both. This makes sense from an indoctrination standpoint, and I think one of the worst aspects of many EU authors is they take what Yoda was saying literally.

KotoR 1/2 does a great job of this with a few characters and fateful expressions:

Jolee Bindo quitting the order because the order accepted him back

Kreia's fateful question, "Did Revan truly fall?" After all, his war of conquest was because he forsaw a greater threat to the republic than the Mandalorians... and wanted to break the Republic of its stupor...

Kreia herself. She's not a servant of the light or a member of the darkside: she seeks the death of the force itself.

Hell, even the main character of the comic isn't really light side or dark side. He's just a guy with force powers.

Things to watch out for:

Knights 1 is made by Bioware so the story is painful if you are looking for complex characters or motivations. I mean, the summary of the character's personalities is like this: Bastilla is good at battle meditation and therefore arrogant. Carth was betrayed and therefore can't trust and whines a lot. HK-47 is an assassin droid so he's bloodthirsty. Canderous is a bounty hunter and is therefore a jerk. *yawn* Pretty much every character except Jolee is two dimensional, and while it works for some of them (HK-47!) it definitely doesn't work for all of them. It's even true for the Villains... I mean Malak kills an entire city just to try and get at Bastilla. Can you say "kicks puppies"?

Knights 2 is incomplete. This means that the story doesn't make a whole lot of sense (well, ok, it does, but only if you've seen the deleted content and go digging for the answers yourself) and a lot of the really cool and complex stuff is left out. It also doesn't have an ending, but the ending that was planned and later cut out was absolutely perfect... at least for the light side.

Examples:

One really big example of something left out that would have explained a lot of complex character interaction: Kreia is the Handmaiden's mother.

More examples: T3 locked out the astrogation on Revan's orders. Atris ordered everyone to Kataar in the first place and said she was going but didn't, hinting that she fell waaaay before the game took place. Atris was also in love with the main character, and has surrounded herself with people "blind" to the force so they couldn't sense that she was dark side. The HK-50 factory was under the Telos military base, and they were being created by G0-T0 and then hired by G0-T0.

There's so much *more* that was just cut due to time constraints that change KotoR 2 from incomplete bunch of awesome bundled together to epic game. Sad, really.

On the flipside, all of the characters are more than two-dimensional. Hell, even HK-47 gets an additional dimension added to him. And then there are some of the greatest lines ever written, from Kreia's "Watch as you see a Jedi without the force, watch as he holds a blaster and you will see nothing more than a man, a woman, a child." to Atton's, "I can't teach you how to block out force users, I can only teach you how to play pazaak." with Mira's "looks like you hooked up a power coupling" and her conversations on relationships and sex making up the meantime.

Story of Knights 1 is better, writing of Knights 2 is better. Go figure, eh?

Attilargh

2010-06-24, 03:29 AM

On the flipside, all of the characters are more than two-dimensional.
Because I'm apparently the grouchy old man of the thread, I'd like to contest this one too. :smalltongue:

Namely, the case of the titular Sith Lords. Because really, one can be summed up in "om nom nom", one in "you're pretty, I hate you" and the last... Well, I guess the last one might be alright. At least she's really deep, because I still don't understand what she was trying to do, and I've read and re-read the Wookieepedia article and had it explained to me a million times.

Also, all of the Jedi are flaming morons only there to make you not feel bad about the order's fate.

And while I'm complaining, I personally found the way the Exile's past never really gets exposited, only referenced rather jarring, the constant crashlandings hilariously silly and the difference between the first game's upbeat ending and the second's depresso-verse puzzling.

And finally, it's kinda annoying that the game tries to be all shades-of-grey, but in most cases the options are "eat babies" or "Mother Theresa", with only apathic "give me monies" in between. It just bugs me how the game rewards me mechanically for picking a Side and going overboard with it while constantly nagging at me for the very same thing via Kreia.

This has been your biannual "Arghy Haet KotOR2" post. I hope you found it enjoyable. Tune in this winter for the next episode, "You've Got Your GRIMDARK in my Star Wars".

Zevox

2010-06-24, 04:47 AM

As others have said, best place to start is the Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Takes place about 5 years after Return of the Jedi, great stuff. Other books by Zahn are generally quite good as well - the Hand of Thrawn Duology, Outbound Flight, and Survivor's Quest are the ones I recall off the top of my head.

I'll also add my recommendation to the X-Wing series of novels, if you're not just interested in the Jedi. They're among the rare novels of the EU that have practically nothing to do with the Jedi or Sith, just starfighter pilots.

I'll also recommend the three Darth Bane novels, stories which focus on the Sith who founded the Rule of Two, the strand of Sith to which Palpatine and Vader belonged.

On other novels, well, all I can say is you'll mostly have to take a look at them for yourself, as opinions will vary. I tend to read anything set after the original trilogy or long before the prequels (KotOR/Darth Bane type long before), but avoid anything set during or just prior to the prequel era, or, in most cases, those set during the original trilogy. The quality definitely varies, as does the degree to which I will criticize and complain about different books, but I generally find the stories set in the eras I do read about enjoyable.

As games go, TIE Fighter is a good space-battle sim game, but I don't know if you'll be able to find it these days. If you liked KotOR 1, you may as well try 2. It's pretty similar gameplay-wise, but the story... well, many, myself included, find it inferior to the first, and it seems incomplete near the end, but I have heard of those who preferred it to the first as well, so YMMV. In any event, even considering the story inferior and incomplete doesn't mean you won't like the game - I did.

Also, The Force Unleashed. I have it on the Wii, and while the story is crap, it's a hell of a lot of fun to play. Especially once you unlock all the alternate character skins.

Zevox

hamishspence

2010-06-24, 05:11 AM

Like many other EU writers, Timothy Zahn criminally underestimates the scale and scope of a galactic civilization. Even so, the Thrawn books are generally considered to be among the better ones out there.

I thought he was famous for being one of the only writers who didn't tend to do that- using plenty of new planets, not overusing stock locations, making it clear that the galaxy is a big place, and so on.

Even when the Empire is at its smallest (8 sectors, in Spectre of the Past) it still has a thousand worlds and 200 Star Destroyers.

Athaniar

2010-06-24, 07:06 AM

Like many others have said, read Zahn's Thrawn books: the Thrawn trilogy, the two Hand of Thrawn books, Survivor's Quest, and the prequel, Outbound Flight. I'd recommend the massive New Jedi Order series, but I haven't read nearly all of it yet. As for the games, I don't recommend KotOR 2, I didn't enjoy it at all (well, except for HK-47, he's always awesome). If you like RTS games (especially Age of Empires II), I do recommend Galactic Battlegrounds. It's quite literally Age of Empires II in the Star Wars universe.

Philistine

2010-06-24, 10:47 AM

I thought he was famous for being one of the only writers who didn't tend to do that- using plenty of new planets, not overusing stock locations, making it clear that the galaxy is a big place, and so on.

Even when the Empire is at its smallest (8 sectors, in Spectre of the Past) it still has a thousand worlds and 200 Star Destroyers.

Yes and no. Zahn does do well at getting old familiar faces (and new ones, too) out into the wider galaxy a bit instead of setting all the action on the handful of worlds seen in the movies. That's a very important consideration, since he was basically the "launch author" for the entire EU.

On the other hand, there's the whole Katana Fleet thing: 200-ish ships just... isn't very many if you're trying to swing the course of a civil war in a galaxy with a million-plus inhabited planets. 200-ish small, old, obsolete ships in desperate need of repair and refitting after ~50 years with no maintenance of any kind, at that! And as you point out, at one point the Empire is down to 1,000 worlds - and yet is still a major player in Galactic affairs and a serious threat to the 999,000 or so planets of the New Republic? Riiiiiiight. And tying this back to the Katana Fleet above: despite having the resources of 1000+ worlds to draw from, Thrawn had to resort to cloning to fill a mere 300,000 berths on the captured Katana Fleet ships - because they couldn't scrape up 300 starship crew from each planet? Seriously? I mean, these are underestimates of positively Travissian proportions we're talking about here. :smalleek:

Still, the story works. Zahn really is a good writer, even if he does fail at math forever. :smallamused:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-06-24, 10:52 AM

I'm also really curious about the comics...has anyone here in the Playground read them?

I've read a few of them. Tales of the Jedi and Legacy are okay, with Tales of the Jedi being a bit dated. Knights of the Old Republic is quite good, but I tend to find its better on a second reading.

Nothing turns out well and nothing is funny, only SRS BSNS.

:smallconfused:

There's hardly a complete lack of humour in Legacy. Just some of it fails to be funny.

The only times the series managed to drag itself out of this mire of GRIMDARK was when Ostrander took a short break and others got to write about the few decent people in the universe, like that one Knight with a beard or the Alliance fleet.

Ostrander has written every issue of Legacy, even the ones that don't focus on core characters. His co-worker/artist Jan Duursema tended not to draw those issues but I have no idea if that she had no story imput on them as well.

Hell, even the main character of the comic isn't really light side or dark side. He's just a guy with force powers.

:smallconfused: Have you read those comics? Zayne Carrick is the most lightside character in the EU. You can play the KotOR game and pick every light side option and end up as less lightside.

I thought he was famous for being one of the only writers who didn't tend to do that- using plenty of new planets, not overusing stock locations, making it clear that the galaxy is a big place, and so on.

Even when the Empire is at its smallest (8 sectors, in Spectre of the Past) it still has a thousand worlds and 200 Star Destroyers.

Zahn isn't as bad as other authors, but he's still painfully minimalistic if you're one of the people who care about such things (I'm not).

Attilargh

2010-06-24, 11:03 AM

There's hardly a complete lack of humour in Legacy. Just some of it fails to be funny.
Well, there's still a severe lack of funny, then. :smallwink: But okay, you got me. It's been far too long since I read the series. Suffice to say that if one wants funny out of your Star Wars comics, one's better off reading KotOR or something.

Ostrander has written every issue of Legacy, even the ones that don't focus on core characters.
Oh. Oops.

Tavar

2010-06-24, 11:10 AM

Really, I'm not sure it's Zahn's problem, or just the entire Star Wars verse as a whole. Still, here's how I justify it, when I feel the need:

Those numbers are significant when you consider that the Star Wars universe as a whole tends towards minimal industrialization and mobilization. Sure, making and crewing a few starfighters and small captial ships isn't hard for your average world with a shipyard. But that doesn't hold true for the Heavy capital ships, like the star destroyers or dreadnoughts. They need much more advanced shipyards, which tend to be located in only a couple systems. These are also the only real places where you can make enough support ships and fighters to fufill the demand these larger ships demand.

Now, it's easy to see that this is a horrible practice, but much of this can be blamed on the Old Republic and Early Empire practices. The former's anti-trust laws were a joke, one that large corporations could easily evade. Thus, you have the standard Oligarchy at work, with a few large organizations consolidating power for themselves. And in the early days of the Empire, this practice was even more encouraged. The Emperour wanted to consolidate power, partially so that he could make sure it was in human hands(look at the bacta situation), and partiually so that it would be easier for him to control it all. This did help him somewhat, as early rebellions lacked supplies, which made them much easier to mop up. Unfortunately, the Reble Alliance was able to work in spite of this. As he was the only real thing keeping super-corporations in check, things got even worse from an industrialization point of view. That's why 200 heavy captital ships can make a large impact on the galactic scene.

Also, while the ships undoubtably needed some refit, they were in one of the most stable storage mediums availible. Don't think the requirement was as dire as you make out.

Zevox

2010-06-24, 11:13 AM

And as you point out, at one point the Empire is down to 1,000 worlds - and yet is still a major player in Galactic affairs and a serious threat to the 999,000 or so planets of the New Republic? Riiiiiiight.
Er, no, actually. By the time the Empire was down to that, it had lost. It was just a matter of getting their stubborn-as-hell leaders to accept it and formally seek peace with the New Republic. That was kind of something that Pellaeon said right at the start of the Hand of Thrawn books.

Zevox

Bouregard

2010-06-24, 12:25 PM

On the other hand, there's the whole Katana Fleet thing: 200-ish ships just... isn't very many if you're trying to swing the course of a civil war in a galaxy with a million-plus inhabited planets. 200-ish small, old, obsolete ships in desperate need of repair and refitting after ~50 years with no maintenance of any kind, at that! And as you point out, at one point the Empire is down to 1,000 worlds - and yet is still a major player in Galactic affairs and a serious threat to the 999,000 or so planets of the New Republic? Riiiiiiight. And tying this back to the Katana Fleet above: despite having the resources of 1000+ worlds to draw from, Thrawn had to resort to cloning to fill a mere 300,000 berths on the captured Katana Fleet ships - because they couldn't scrape up 300 starship crew from each planet? Seriously? I mean, these are underestimates of positively Travissian proportions we're talking about here. :smalleek:

Still, the story works. Zahn really is a good writer, even if he does fail at math forever. :smallamused:

The Empire was reduced to its core sectors. Meaning some of the most heavily armed and armored worlds possible. Bastion was a fortressworld, Yaga Minor was also heavily defended.

About the Katana Fleet. Thats exactly the joke. For old Republic standard it was an annoying loss, but nothing really to get angry about. Same for the old Galactic Empire. But Thrawn with his near limitless
new supply of clones... he was the only one who could use them.

And they weren't in a really bad shape.The maintenance droids worked just fine

Why the Empire was still a threat is shown in the two books after the Thran Trilogy. The full might of the Republic would steamroll them, yes.
But there are 2 major points to consider:

a) A full blown assault would leave many homeworlds only marginal defended, open to pirates, aliens and vengeful neighbors.

b) While the New Republic Military itself was pretty small even weaker then those 200 Stardestroyers. To start a war they would have to unity the whole New Republic against the Empire. And it's quickly shown that most won't see the Empire as a threat.

And the big problem with the Grand Admiral was that he could easily challenge the New Republic with a few ressources... do you really want to give him more ships?

Chaelos

2010-06-24, 12:41 PM

And as you point out, at one point the Empire is down to 1,000 worlds - and yet is still a major player in Galactic affairs and a serious threat to the 999,000 or so planets of the New Republic? Riiiiiiight.

There's also the fact that the New Republic, as depicted in many of these books, is so incompetent that it couldn't find its own ass half the time, whereas the Imperial Remnant is a highly militaristic, fanatical and centrally-controlled (except during the warlord years) authoritarian regime that's dug in and desperate. And then there's the marginal cost issue: when you control 99.9% of the galaxy, do you really want to bother with the remaining .1%?

And tying this back to the Katana Fleet above: despite having the resources of 1000+ worlds to draw from, Thrawn had to resort to cloning to fill a mere 300,000 berths on the captured Katana Fleet ships - because they couldn't scrape up 300 starship crew from each planet?

Easy way to reconcile this: assume every other military asset at Thrawn's disposal (and, given that most of the Empire's power was tied up at Byss, this wasn't much) was tied up fighting the New Republic in other theaters of war. The Katana fleet, then, represents a surplus of firepower when viewed in the context of the greater equilibrium--perhaps not much of one, but perhaps just enough to give Thrawn the striking power he desperately needed.

even if he does fail at math forever. :smallamused:

Let me just point out, as an aside, that most readers are sufficiently number-illiterate that these grand "minimalism" issues are rather irrelevant to actual enjoyment of the story. The drama the human characters are faced with doesn't change if it's a grand interstellar war between thousands of ships, or if it's a grand interstellar war between billions of ships (which isn't even the upper limit I've heard claimed for what would be "realistic").

I think that's why the story works, as you say--most people really couldn't care less about the numbers.

Tangential Your Mileage May Vary comment below:
Contrast that to Traviss' work, which suffers from even worse minimalism, but features characters so flat and Mary Sueish that I can't get through more than a chapter or two before rolling my eyes and moving on to something better.

pendell

2010-06-24, 01:23 PM

And now for something completely different.

You want SW? You want GOOD SW?

Then go to your local library and read Isaac Asimov's "Foundation Trilogy", about the collapse of the Galactic Empire and it's reconstruction over a thousand year period.

It isn't star wars, but in certain very important ways they are kissing cousins. There is no Force, but there are psychic powers, political intrigue, and it will make you think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Eloi

2010-06-24, 01:29 PM

Well, you could try the original Star Wars novel, Splinter of the Mind's Eye novel, and the Shadow of the Empire novel for the Expanded Universe 'classics' beyond Zahn's work.

raitalin

2010-06-24, 01:32 PM

Eloi

2010-06-24, 01:36 PM

If you're like me, it will also bore you to sleep for most of a year.

Amen to that. Asimov's writings are rather dry.

raitalin

2010-06-24, 04:09 PM

I LOVE most of Asimov's stuff. The man might be the master of the short story, but Foundation is exactly like crossing the Sahara, except with more talking.

chiasaur11

2010-06-24, 04:15 PM

The best Star Wars stuff is Tag and Bink.

Fact.

Tavar

2010-06-24, 04:23 PM

The best Star Wars stuff is Tag and Bink.

Again, the Who? Just saying the same thing again generally isn't that helpful.

chiasaur11

2010-06-24, 04:29 PM

Again, the Who? Just saying the same thing again generally isn't that helpful.

Right.

Link. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tag_%26_Bink_Are_Dead)

It's a bit Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

Chaelos

2010-06-24, 04:32 PM

He's referring to a joke comic (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tag_%26_Bink_Are_Dead) inspired by Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosencrantz_and_Guildenstern_Are_Dead).

Edit: Ninja'd.

horngeek

2010-06-24, 04:33 PM

Hawriel

2010-06-24, 06:30 PM

the Thrawn books. Ok any thing by Timothy Zhan.

The X-Wing books. By Michael Stackpole and Aaron Alston. 9 books in all.

A.C. Crispen's Han Solo trilogy.
Its han solo's life from age 16 to there is this old guy who wants a ride.

The Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley.
These are three serial novels about Han befor the movies. AC Crispen also fits this in her books in a very nice way to keep continuety. This is also the reason why The Corporate Sector sorce book was made for WEG D6 star wars.

The Bounty Hunter Wars. By K.W. Jeter
This story stares your favorite bounty hunter after bering dragged out of the sarlac. It shows what a real bad ass Fett can be. Unlike that new auther that has been writing the mando books for the past few years.

Edit forgot one.

Dark Horse comics Tales of the Jedi. I truely enjoyed these two mini series when they came out. Most star wars comics suck, but this really had the feel for me.

Reverent-One

2010-06-24, 08:33 PM

Tangential Your Mileage May Vary comment below:
Contrast that to Traviss' work, which suffers from even worse minimalism, but features characters so flat and Mary Sueish that I can't get through more than a chapter or two before rolling my eyes and moving on to something better.

Continuing the YMMV line of thought:
Flat and Mary Sueish? I really love many of her characters, especially the clones, who are just great. This is why I don't care about her unusual idea of numbers in the clone wars, for much the same reason you mentioned in you post.

And as for Mary sueish, yes, many of her main characters are quite awesome and badass...just like most other main characters, jedi or not, in the SW EU, whether or not they're very important individuals. Look at what Rogue and Wraith squadrons pull off in the X-Wings series, they're freaking amazing, to say nothing of Wedge Antillies himself, or Talon Karrde, ect and so on. I don't see how Travis's characters are on such a higher level than the rest.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-06-25, 07:02 AM

When a new Sith Lord shows up and Luke Skywalker (confirmed dark jedi kills in the tens) and his niece think "what would Boba Fett (confirmed jedi kills: 0) do" then "Luke is also a Mary Sue" doesn't really stand as an arguement. Something is just wrong even if Boba collects lightsabers and might have killed some force users off screen.

Thrawn183

2010-06-25, 10:41 AM

I think part of the reason the numbers are kept so small in SW is so that the protagonists have an easier time really determining the outcome of what happens without just being diplomats that get a 100 capital ships to join up or something.

Who would care about a single x-wing squadron if every battle had a 1,000 capital ships in it or every major planet was defended by 10,000 fighter craft?

Mr. Scaly

2010-06-25, 10:47 AM

Death Star. For the love of God, read Death Star. :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Paladin

2010-06-25, 11:19 AM

Have you read the Republic Commando novels?
Karen Traviss gets a whole lot of crap ( mostly because she's pretty high on her horse, if you ask me- she doesn't allow fanfiction of her work, but, really, isn't she just a glorified fanfiction writer?)
Actually, it's mostly because she can't think her way out of a paper bag; she claims a war on a galactic scale was carried on by a military smaller in size than the United States Army during the Cold War and threatens people with death when they point out how ridiculous that is. :smallyuk:

Tavar

2010-06-25, 11:21 AM

Actually, it's mostly because she can't think her way out of a paper bag; she claims a war on a galactic scale was carried on by a military smaller in size than the United States Army during the Cold War and threatens people with death when they point out how ridiculous that is. :smallyuk:

This is all from hearsay, but I thought that she said the clones numbers were small. From EU work, most systems had their own militias and stuff, which would fill out the rest of the battles.

Dienekes

2010-06-25, 11:28 AM

This is all from hearsay, but I thought that she said the clones numbers were small. From EU work, most systems had their own militias and stuff, which would fill out the rest of the battles.

The way I heard it, you are almost correct. Well you are, but then for some reason she also placed a ridiculously small number on the droids that were being produced. So small that it would make sense that they'd fight the clones to a near match, and would have less than 1 per planet they were trying to attack.

Really though, I figured most people really dislike her not for the minimalist thing, that's a token of SW, just that she is so hard-headed about it. Most people would like to believe that their authors when pointed out something they wrote makes no sense would own up and say something like "I'm an author not a general, yeah I kind of took that out my arse, I hope it didn't make the story worse though." instead, she compares her opposition to the Taliban. Now that's a class act right there.

Grumman

2010-06-25, 04:18 PM

Things to read:
Everything by Zahn.

Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand from the New Jedi Order.

Things to avoid:
Everything by Kevin J. Anderson.

Everything written by Karen Traviss after the first book, because it's anti-canonical Jedi-bashing propaganda, fueled by the bottomless hatred of her black heart.

The Legacy of the Force series, which is plagued by idiot balls, squick and Karen's Jedi-bashing.

Reverent-One

2010-06-25, 06:22 PM

Everything written by Karen Traviss after the first book, because it's anti-canonical Jedi-bashing propaganda, fueled by the bottomless hatred of her black heart.

*Sigh*
What Jedi-bashing? Despite what people keep claiming, her books are not terribly anti-Jedi. Yes, if you were to ask many of the main characters, since many of them are Mando's, sure they'd not have a lot of nice things to say about the Jedi in general, and yet they seem to be able to get along with, if not somewhat like pretty much every single one, even the that was also a Kaminoian, which should have been a double mark against her.

hamishspence

2010-06-25, 06:29 PM

She manages to fit Callista into the Clone Wars era- and make her backstory make sense in the context of that period (not found till quite some way through childhood:

but by emphasising that there were Jedi who don't follow the "no marriage, must be trained from infancy" precepts- instead training Jedi even at later ages, and allowing them to marry.

This may not be consistant with the way Lucas wrote the Clone Wars era Jedi- but it is consistant with the way Children of the Jedi was written.

The whole "the clones are slaves- and the Jedi are culpable" bit has been attacked a few times- but it must be remembered that it was a Jedi, and not a renegade either, but a Master on the Council (Sifo-Dyas) who approached the Kaminoans in the first place- and this is in the Attack of the Clones movie.

Though it's also true, that Dooku murdered him and took over the project- and hired Jango- so really, the creation of the clones as they are, can be blamed on him.

My guess is, that from Traviss's point of view- the Jedi of the Tales of the Jedi comics set 5000-4000 years before, who train adults, and who allow marriage- are fine, as are the Jedi as written in the Children of the Jedi book- but the Order as of the prequels (no marriage- no training anybody over the age of one except in extreme circumstances) are a problem.

Reverent-One

2010-06-25, 06:44 PM

The whole "the clones are slaves- and the Jedi are culpable" bit has been attacked a few times- but it must be remembered that it was a Jedi, and not a renegade either, but a Master on the Council (Sifo-Dyas) who approached the Kaminoans in the first place- and this is in the Attack of the Clones movie.

Though it's also true, that Dooku murdered him and took over the project- and hired Jango- so really, the creation of the clones as they are, can be blamed on him.

While Dooku may be responsible for the clone's creation, the Jedi are responsible for their use in the war. The Kaminoian's thought the Jedi owned the clones, so they handed the clones over to them. At that point, the Jedi are responsible for what they do with them, and they let, or actively made it so that the clones became effective slaves. Just another one of George Lucas' nonsensical plot points from the prequels.

hamishspence

2010-06-25, 06:51 PM

Grumman

2010-06-25, 06:57 PM

*Sigh*
What Jedi-bashing?

Concocting the theory that the Clone Wars were a brush war exaggerated by a Jedi/Palpatine conspiracy, using numbers that are inaccurate by orders of magnitude and still wouldn't prove her point even if they weren't. Having this theory parrotted by multiple mouthpieces without shooting it down as it deserves.

Turning one of her non-Mandalorian Jedi OCs into a strawman who can't contradict the weakest of arguments thrown against them. Having the other one die during the Purge, by protecting a clonetrooper from the children trying to escape the genocide.

Excusing her favoured protagonists' genocidal actions, because the Jedi supposedly needed killing.

Turning Jaina Solo, fighter pilot, Jedi and war hero, into a damsel who can't fight a Sith unless the Mandalorians train her.

Having said Mandos constantly belittle her and utterly failing to write the response they deserved.

Accusing people of "Nazi-think" for not revolting against a fictional setting where the Jedi are good guys. She's also a hypocrite, as her accusations that her detractors feel the non-Jedi characters are subhuman Untermensch are completely unfounded, but could be accurately ascribed to her use of the Mandalorians as mouthpieces for her view that the near-genocide of the Jedi was a good thing, and references to Jaina as Boba's "pet".

Reverent-One

2010-06-25, 06:59 PM

The Kaminoans probably thought that because Dooku handled things very carefully.

And they do say "This army is for the Republic" not "this army is for the Jedi"- with the Senate debating over whether to take control of the mysterious army "Now we need that clone army" and Palpatine's emergency powers permitting its use.

Didn't they say that it was Master Sifo-Dyas who said the "army is for the republic", in answer to Obi-wan? If they think the Jedi are their employers, they're not going to care what the Jedi do with them, even if the Jedi were to seemingly change their minds. And given that Yoda goes and gathers the Clones in Episode II to begin with, it seems like the Kaminoians do consider the Jedi the owners.

As well as "what are the Jedi doing acting as the Republic's iron fist?"

This one doesn't bother me so much, the Jedi become generals under noticeable reluctance, and I can see why they would rate the Republic's survival highly enough to agree in the end.

Concocting the theory that the Clone Wars were a brush war exaggerated by a Jedi/Palpatine conspiracy, using numbers that are inaccurate by orders of magnitude and still wouldn't prove her point even if they weren't. Having this theory parrotted by multiple mouthpieces without shooting it down as it deserves.

Except that those who think the Jedi and Palpatine are together in exaggerating the war don't know how much wool Palpatine is pulling over the Jedi's eyes, hence why they think the Jedi are in on it.

Turning one of her non-Mandalorian Jedi OCs into a strawman who can't contradict the weakest of arguments thrown against them. Having the other one die during the Purge, by protecting a clonetrooper from the children trying to escape the genocide.

Travis is NOT the only author to have Jedi leave the order due to the Order's actions in the Clone wars, there have been plenty of them. And as for your second example, having a Jedi die saving something is anti-jedi now?

Excusing her favoured protagonists' genocidal actions, because the Jedi supposedly needed killing.

When have her protagonists had any real part in the Jedi hunting?

Turning Jaina Solo, fighter pilot, Jedi and war hero, into a damsel who can't fight a Sith unless the Mandalorians train her.

You mean the Sith that fought Luke Skywalker and came out alive? Anyone who can do that is freaking scary, even if he had to run or however Cadeus got out of that. The same one that has a host of techniques she knows nothing about, yet knows most everything about her?

Having said Mandos constantly belittle her and utterly failing to write the response they deserved.

Here I'll agree, somewhat. There have been a number of conversations in her books that have been one-sided in the anti-jedi side's favor, and I wish I could jump in myself to correct a few things. But then, I, and other readers, have access to information many characters in-universe don't have and on top of that, most of the time these conversations say more about those on the anti-Jedi side, who are shown to be stereotyping the Jedi unfairly, even by their actions in Travis's own books.

Accusing people of "Nazi-think" for not revolting against a fictional setting where the Jedi are good guys. She's also a hypocrite, as her accusations that her detractors feel the non-Jedi characters are subhuman Untermensch are completely unfounded, but could be accurately ascribed to her use of the Mandalorians as mouthpieces for her view that the near-genocide of the Jedi was a good thing, and references to Jaina as Boba's "pet".

And I'm not touching anything about Travis as an individual and what she says out of books.

Yulian

2010-06-25, 07:26 PM

The Thrawn Trilogy is widely loved, and rightly so. I've only read the first one, mind you, but it definitely tapped into what I see as the real essence of Star-Wars-ness.

I'm also madly in love with the Legacy comics. They take all of the themes present in the films and ratchet them up to eleven. The internal struggle of good and evil, the war-fractured, "lived in" galaxy, multi-layered family trees, space as a gunslinging, Western-style frontier... They're all there, and they all play major parts in it. The writers (or just writer, it might all be Jon Ostrander) do (or does) a remarkable job of juggling a staggering amount of characters. You've got the "core" gang of Cade, Syn, and Blue, often joined by Wolf and Shado. Then you've got the various Sith and their Imperial allies. Then you've got Roan Fel's Empire-in-exile, which includes the Princess and the Imperial Knights. Then you've got Bantha Rawk and his family. Then you've got Morrigan Corde. Then you've got Gunner Yage and Skull Squadron. Then you've got the Alliance fleet and Rogue Squadron. THEN you've got the Mandalorians. It's a big happy (er... not so happy) galaxy.

There is no part of this I don't wholeheartedly agree with. The Thrawn Trilogy is fantastic, Legacy is on my monthly comic pull list.

Legacy, to me, feels more "realistically" complex as well. Instead of the more cliche' evil empire versus plucky rebels, you have multiple factions, sometimes allied, sometimes opposed, and even allied but working towards eventual cross-purposes. Frankly, the only faction you can point to and say "they are straight-up evil" is the One Sith (currently in nominal control of one Imperial Remnant) because they're essentially a cult with possibly thousands of members now. That's also refreshing, to have Sith who are not the Big Bad and the Dragon all the time. Heck, one particular Sith of increasing importance isn't even a Darth, just an incredibly evil biologist who has gained respect due to his total disregard for life or ethics.

Oh yeah, the stakes are also portrayed a bit more realistically sometimes, too. We don't the sterile, distant actions of the Death Star. We get something more like the Holocaust on Dac.

I guess the characters also strike me as more morally grey too, which, I will admit, is a personal taste of mine. Cade? Best. Skywalker. Ever. His reactions to people harping on and on about his "fate" are about like mine would be. He tells Luke's Force Ghost to kark off on multiple occasions. He uses Dark and Light Side techniques as tools, first and foremost, and is, when you get down to the wire, "generally" a good(ish) person. This series also gives us sympathetic Hutts, like the ever-helpful and charming Queen Jool, so seems less "specist" out of the box. Heck the leader of the Republic remnant is a Duro. Jariah Syn is also a breath of fresh air. An awesome pirate a little too fond of explosives and Vong tech. To be frank, it's also nice to see a black guy front-and-center more often too. Doesn't hurt that he is made of boom and win.

Yes, Legacy is, to me, the "new Star Wars". No Lucas required or welcome. It'll probably never become a TV show, and that means the writers are a lot more free to craft good stories. Nobody's related to anybody except Cade, so it has a healthy distance from all the former stuff too. It's fresh to me. The fact that it's not "Jedi-O-Rama" doesn't hurt either, because the prequels will not stop with that. I half-expect the clone thing helps weak writers not have to do much about non-Jedi in terms of characterization. Although I can tell when some of them chafe under it and we get Republic Commando stuff.

Video games? X-Wing: Alliance is still my favourite flying sim. Yes, I like it even more than X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. The number of vehicles, the different types of missions, even the story, all of it is just great, and I usually prefer playing Empire is most games when given the option, but this one makes being a Rebel cool again.

Dark Forces, well, what more need be said? Quality stuff all around. KOTOR I, same deal, I've liked the Battlefront games and their ability to take a fight from a ship, to space, to another ship. I've been longing for that for years. The Force Unleashed is not about the story. Not at all. It is about, as Palpy said: "POWAH! UNLIMITED POWAH!!!". Go forth and annihilate.

- Yulian

Reverent-One

2010-06-25, 07:32 PM

You know, this thread is making me consider getting into Legacy for once. At first glance, the time skip made it seem sketchy to me, but perhaps it is looking into.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-06-25, 07:55 PM

I guess the characters also strike me as more morally grey too, which, I will admit, is a personal taste of mine. Cade? Best. Skywalker. Ever.

If my other choices weren't Anakin and Luke I'd disagree with you.

I wish Luke's ghost had given up 25 issues ago and Cade had vanished into obscurity like he supposedly wants to. Then we wouldn't have this "I can defy my destiny as a Skywalker but I can't really" problem.

If Cade had got better after Claws of the Dragon he'd be okay, but after 46 issues I couldn't care less. I only read issues that he's in because Jariah's in them too.

Does Nat Skywalker still count? He beats Cade pretty effectively.

I'd take Darca Nyl, Vima Sunrider and Zayne Carrick over any Skywalker though.

Heck the leader of the Republic remnant is a Duro.

Duro are hardly anything close to a "bad guy" race and Stazi isn't the first Duro admiral in the NR/GFFA. He's not that differant to Akbar. It's only really A New Hope that has humans taking the only important roles, which is probably due to budget reasons.

Grumman

2010-06-25, 07:56 PM

Except that those who think the Jedi and Palpatine are together in exaggerating the war don't know how much wool Palpatine is pulling over the Jedi's eyes, hence why they think the Jedi are in on it.
But there is no basis for the view, and the evidence they produce in favour of it doesn't make sense. So why the hell is it portrayed as prevalent and accurate?

Travis is NOT the only author to have Jedi leave the order due to the Order's actions in the Clone wars, there have been plenty of them.
I'm not talking about a Jedi who left the order, I'm talking about a Jedi General who is confronted by a bunch of clonetroopers who are going to murder him not because they are mentally conditioned to be incapable of refusing the order, but because they don't care if their orders are ethical, and he can't think of a response.

And as for your second example, having a Jedi die saving something is anti-jedi now?
It is when the person they save is murdering innocent people, then goes back to murdering innocent people afterwards. It's like writing a book set during World War II, in which the Jewish protagonist saves the death camp guard from the other Jews trying to escape.

When have her protagonists had any real part in the Jedi hunting?
When they are clonetroopers who according to Traviss carried out Order 66 willingly?

You mean the Sith that fought Luke Skywalker and came out alive? Anyone who can do that is freaking scary, even if he had to run or however Cadeus got out of that. The same one that has a host of techniques she knows nothing about, yet knows most everything about her?
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. To me, Cadeus's successes seem to come more from authorial fiat than competence. A few times Luke just owned him completely, but didn't follow through.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-06-25, 08:11 PM

One of Travis' most hated actions is:

Scout (actual name: Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy, apparently) was a character from a non-Travis book who had a story arc about her being scared she'd be kicked out of the jedi for not being powerful enough, which ended with Yoda telling her that power isn't what makes you a Jedi and she'd more than proved herself as worthy of being in the Jedi Order.

Travis then included her in one of her books, completely ignored the original story and had her show up, claiming to have been kicked out of the Jedi order after all and that now she wants to be a Mandalorian.

Well, that's an exageration and I'm probably wrong since I haven't read either book, but it did annoy a lot of people.

Fenn Shysa was an old Mandalorian character from the 70s-80s Marvel comics series who was generally portrayed as a noble person who hated Boba Fett, who had at one point betrayed him. Attack of the Clones ruined his backstory, so it had to be retconned that the Boba Fett he knew was actually a renegade clonetrooper posing as Boba. Then Travis decided that because he didn't like Boba Fett he must be a badguy and completly character assassinated him by writing that the fake Boba had been his plan to take control of the mandalorians, turning him from a noble character into a lying charlatan.

She also ignored all of Boba's previous characterisation, but she's hardly the first to do that.

Mando Knight

2010-06-25, 08:16 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. To me, Cadeus's successes seem to come more from authorial fiat than competence. A few times Luke just owned him completely, but didn't follow through.

Caedus survived several of the encounters with Luke specifically because Luke let him. It's pretty much even stated outright that Luke had a Force vision that he interpreted as that he would fall again if he killed Caedus himself, and due to his blood, skill, and experience, he would become the greatest terror the galaxy had ever known... worse than Palpatine, let alone than his wannabes Caedus and Krayt.

TheThan

2010-06-25, 08:30 PM

There is no Lucas only Zahn.

wow, that just totally made me crack up.

Reverent-One

2010-06-25, 08:34 PM

But there is no basis for the view, and the evidence they produce in favour of it doesn't make sense. So why the hell is it portrayed as prevalent and accurate?

Sure there's basis for that view, the higher up clones and their trainers are well aware of how many clones the Kaminoian's made, they were there. And the Nulls found evidence of the droids numbers being exaggerated. Sure we can say the numbers don't make sense and Travis should have gone higher, but she didn't, and you can't blame the characters who are constrained to responding to how the facts of the universe are written, not how we would like them to be.

I'm not talking about a Jedi who left the order, I'm talking about a Jedi General who is confronted by a bunch of clonetroopers who are going to murder him not because they are mentally conditioned to be incapable of refusing the order, but because they don't care if their orders are ethical, and he can't think of a response.

You're referring to Zey then? Who wasn't confronted by a bunch of normal clonetroopers but by one of the null troopers, who are A) fanatically loyal to a mandalorian and B) thought the Jedi just tried to overthrow the legitimate ruler of the republic, and an ARC trooper who disobeyed orders and went under cover with him.

It is when the person they save is murdering innocent people, then goes back to murdering innocent people afterwards. It's like writing a book set during World War II, in which the Jewish protagonist saves the death camp guard from the other Jews trying to escape.

No, I'm not going to continue that analogy due to board rules, but it doesn't fit. The clone troopers are both genetically modified and trained since "birth" to follow orders and the chain of command, and as far as they know, the Jedi have just committed treason and tried to take over the government. Yes, I know that doesn't make killing children right, but that's also besides the point. She didn't save the clone because he was "right", or to help catch the jedi, or any other anti-jedi reason, but because he reminded her of the man she loved.

When they are clonetroopers who according to Traviss carried out Order 66 willingly?

The clonetroopers as a whole are not the main protagonists of Travis's books, even if Kal Skirata's main motivation is their well-being. And again, yes they carried out order 66 willingly, because as I said, far as they know, the Jedi have just committed treason and tried to take over the government.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. To me, Cadeus's successes seem to come more from authorial fiat than competence. A few times Luke just owned him completely, but didn't follow through.

The thing is, it doesn't matter where Cadues's successes came from, just that he made them. And I'm not trying to say he could beat Luke, but that the fact that he could anywhere in the near vicinity of him means he's a major threat. On top of that, Jaina isn't Luke Skywalker and that Caedus knows her so well is yet another disadvantage.

One of Travis' most hated actions is:

Scout (actual name: Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy, apparently) was a character from a non-Travis book who had a story arc about her being scared she'd be kicked out of the jedi for not being powerful enough, which ended with Yoda telling her that power isn't what makes you a Jedi and she'd more than proved herself as worthy of being in the Jedi Order.

Travis then included her in one of her books, completely ignored the original story and had her show up, claiming to have been kicked out of the Jedi order after all and that now she wants to be a Mandalorian.

Well, that's an exageration and I'm probably wrong since I haven't read either book, but it did annoy a lot of people.

That's why I thought Scout sounded familiar! I've read the first book with her, but that was some time ago. That said, I think the complaint is incorrect. I'll have to check my copy of Imperial Commando again, but I thought she just said she was almost kicked out, not that she actually was. I fully admit I could be remembering wrong though. At the very least, it's not that she wants to be a mando, she wants to be a medic, and two of Skirata's crew did start her on that path, hence why she doesn't just go off with the alternate lifestyle force-users. There could also be the more meta reason that the alternate lifestyle force-users may not be around long, and her staying could save her life (Though this is pure speculation on my part).