How to maximize a tank?

[gallagher]

How does one maximize the tank role? as i see it, one needs 3 things: Be a Knight so that it forces people to attack you, good defense (high AC, good saves, and some form of miss chance) and a high Constitution (for the whole getting hit thing)

so is there anything i am missing? are there any good tank builds out there?

[OMG PONIES]

I'll be the one to ask:

3.5? What sources? What level?

[Flickerdart]

The Wu Jen spell Giant Size maximizes you as big as you'll go. :smallbiggrin:

[Mongoose87]

Generally, Crusaders are considered the best tanks, since they actually get bonuses for getting hit, not to mention their maneuvers that heal them.

[tyckspoon]

To tank effectively in D&D, you need: Durability (good AC, HP, and saves), a way to actively interfere with your opponents (Trip/Stand Still/Knockdown/Knight's Challenge/Goad feat), and a way to prevent your opponents from simply maneuvering around you anyway (often overlaps strongly with the second, plus abilities like the Thicket of Blades stance and the Knight's Bulwark of Defense class ability. Getting good reach is also important.) Knight is a good starting point, Crusader has more active abilities to protect his friends, multiclassing them works really well (since you can, for example, be in Iron Guard's Glare stance and use the Knight's Bulwark of Defense to restrict travel in your control zone instead of choosing between Glare and Thicket of Blades.)

[gallagher]

I'll be the one to ask:

3.5? What sources? What level?

woops, sorry, yeah 3.5

im not really building the character yet. i am more looking into the build to see if it is worth while, so there arent any level or source restrictions yet. i was more wondering if there were any good builds for the tank.

i was thinking so far just looking into Knight 3/Paladin of freedom 2/ Crusader 15 or something along those lines, maximizing my CHA, CON, and STR

[OMG PONIES]

Be sure to slap a ring of evasion on that guy.

[Person_Man]

There are many factors:

Hit points: High Constitution and anything that buffs it. If you're an Incarnate, Vitality Belt also adds (Level * essentia invested) hit points. Heart of Incarnum feat also gives you bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool, which is potentially unlimited for a Necrocarnate.
Battlefield Control: If your enemy can't attack you, then it doesn't matter what the rest of your defenses are.
High AC: Self explanatory. Good armor, and animated shield, non-dumped Dex, and a few enchantments is usually all you need. But I've seen a number of threads where AC has been pushed up to absurd levels.
High Saves: Self explanatory. Divine Grace or Dark Blessing is the obvious method, but there are probably a hundred different methods of getting good Saving Throw modifiers and/or re-rolls.
Miss Change: 50% is your goal, and is not hard to come by at high levels. 20% is the bare minimum. This will help protect you against everything that requires an attack roll.
Evasion: In most games, your Reflex Save is the most commonly targeted, and even if you pass you take damage. Again, there are dozens of methods to get this, including a few which function in full armor (Ring of Evasion, Divine Oracle, Aglarondan Griffonrider, etc).
Touch AC: Lots of spells ignore Saves and only require a touch attack.
Efficient Healing: And by efficient, I mean healing that occurs as a free, swift, immediate, or attack action. This includes Fast Healing (which tends to be negligible), Divine Spirit stances/maneuvers, Hellreaver, various spells, and the dozen or so methods of Vampiric Healing (Claws of the Vampire, Vampiric Touch, etc).
Efficient Temporary Hit Points: Stone Power, Minor Shapeshift, Vigor, the unerratad version of a Bodyfeeder weapon, and a few others.
Shared Hit Points: An easy Paladin trick is to cast Shield Other on your Mount and Share Spells with it. Now 50% of your damage goes to your Mount (and vice versa, but he's protected by Mounted Combat, Improved Evasion, etc). There are also several methods of making your enemy share your pain, such as the Dahlver-Nar vestige, Retributive Amulet, and the Forced Share Pain psionic power.
High Opposed Checks: Trip, Bull Rush, and Grapple are all serious threats which bypass your other defenses (except miss chance). Dwarf, Combat Stability, Incarnum Blade, Shield Ward, various soulmelds and spells, anything that increases your size or Str.
Mettle: This protects you against the secondary effects of Poison and Disease, and a dozen or so important spells. The Tabard of Valor (Complete Champion) can also give Improved Mettle to someone who already has Mettle when they're below 50% hit points.


You certainly don't need all of these defenses. But if your build goal is to be a tank, you should do your best to accumulate as many as you can.

[Doc Roc]

We've found Mettle to be exceptionally useful, just to highlight what's already been said. Improved mettle is basically solid gold.

The most crucial thing, though, is making them want or need to murder you. A crucial endeavor that many people have already discussed.

[Gnaeus]

How does one maximize the tank role? as i see it, one needs 3 things: Be a Knight so that it forces people to attack you, good defense (high AC, good saves, and some form of miss chance) and a high Constitution (for the whole getting hit thing)

so is there anything i am missing? are there any good tank builds out there?

Personally, I don't think Knight's Challenge/Test of Mettle is remotely effective at forcing people to attack you. First, it needs 4 levels of knight to get (so your build can't even do it). Then it is a will save based on a secondary stat. Targets must have a language and an Int score. It is arguably mind affecting, and if so thats a bunch of creatures it won't do anything to. It ends if anyone other than you attacks the target. It doesn't stop enemies from continuing to fight others if they already are in melee, nor does it stop them from flying into the air and fireballing the entire party.

The best way to get enemies to attack you is by being useful enough that they can't ignore you. Knights and Paladins are both bad at that.

[Draz74]

Someone should homebrew a multiclass feat for Knight/Crusader. I don't know what all it should let you combine for the classes, but just the Knight's Challenge Save DCs would be an excellent start.

[Greenish]

Someone should homebrew a multiclass feat for Knight/Crusader. I don't know what all it should let you combine for the classes, but just the Knight's Challenge Save DCs would be an excellent start.Multiclass knight/crusader's levels in crusader count for Knight's challenge and knight levels count as full IL for crusader?

[Draz74]

Multiclass knight/crusader's levels in crusader count for Knight's challenge and knight levels count as full IL for crusader?

Eh, probably too good. Maybe Knight levels just advance the Crusader's Smite abilities. But Crusader levels advance all of the Knight's Challenge stuff.

I'd still take that feat. I think it would make a Knight 3/Crusader 17 (or Knight 3/Paladin 2/Crusader 15) very viable indeed.

[Greenish]

Eh, probably too good.I was trying for something that might tempt people into actually popping between the classes instead of just getting minimum levels of knight and filling the rest with crusader.

[Critical]

Be a spiked chain tripper. :smallwink:

[Draz74]

I was trying for something that might tempt people into actually popping between the classes instead of just getting minimum levels of knight and filling the rest with crusader.

Fair point. Hmmm ... actually, come to think of it, full IL doesn't help that much, just because Crusader has so few levels where it actually acquires new Maneuvers. Yeah, maybe your version is the best after all.

[Curmudgeon]

There are many factors:
I'll add just one more: backup. You can't do everything by yourself. In particular, you're just part of the scenery if enemies stay back behind cover and use ranged attacks on your group. You may survive, but your job of protecting others and dishing out damage won't get done. Get some help to fill in your weak areas.

[Person_Man]

Personally, I don't think Knight's Challenge/Test of Mettle is remotely effective at forcing people to attack you. First, it needs 4 levels of knight to get (so your build can't even do it). Then it is a will save based on a secondary stat. Targets must have a language and an Int score. It is arguably mind affecting, and if so thats a bunch of creatures it won't do anything to. It ends if anyone other than you attacks the target. It doesn't stop enemies from continuing to fight others if they already are in melee, nor does it stop them from flying into the air and fireballing the entire party.

The best way to get enemies to attack you is by being useful enough that they can't ignore you. Knights and Paladins are both bad at that.

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)

You are correct that Test of Mettle doesn't work against many enemies. And if your DM throws nothing but Constructs and Oozes at you, then you have a problem (because combat will be more difficult, and your DM is a jerk) just as it may be difficult for any Rogue, Ninja, Scout, or Beguiler in your party.

But when you fight enemies that qualify, it can be devastatingly powerful. Lets say that you have a party of 5 players fighting 10 enemies. Knight uses Test of Mettle, and 6 of the enemies fail their Save. The Knight uses any number of tactics to hold them at bay, which the remaining 4 players focus on the enemies who passed their Save. Then they move on to the enemies fighting you, one at a time. Trust me, being able to "divide and conquer" is a lot easier then the free for all of combat without Test of Mettle.

For the Paladin, the key is your Special Mount. If you take Leadership or a PrC that offers a strong mount (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6985038), then you will be a very mobile tank with a limited but useful number of spells and special abilities.


Now, both are Tier 3-4ish options. I'm not arguing that they're nearly as powerful as a full caster, Crusader, etc. But they're certainly good tanks.

[Gnaeus]

But when you fight enemies that qualify, it can be devastatingly powerful. Lets say that you have a party of 5 players fighting 10 enemies. Knight uses Test of Mettle, and 6 of the enemies fail their Save. The Knight uses any number of tactics to hold them at bay, which the remaining 4 players focus on the enemies who passed their Save. Then they move on to the enemies fighting you, one at a time. Trust me, being able to "divide and conquer" is a lot easier then the free for all of combat without Test of Mettle.

When you fight enemies that qualify.
And you go first so that you can hit them with it before it becomes useless.
And their will saves are pathetic.
And they aren't casters, don't possess AOEs, can't hit and run you to run out the timer on your ability. (and every level that passes this group shrinks)
Then
You can do your basic job.

It is better than a blank space on a leveling chart. But pretending that you can tank just because you have Test of Mettle is a daydream.


For the Paladin, the key is your Special Mount. If you take Leadership or a PrC that offers a ... then you will be a character with leadership or a +1 tier PRC.

Fixed that for you.

Basing your class assessments on Leadership is silly.



Now, both are Tier 3-4ish options. I'm not arguing that they're nearly as powerful as a full caster, Crusader, etc.

That is not true. Knight is tier 5. Capable of doing one thing (Tanking), but that thing isn't something that the average party needs. It isn't even really good at tanking compared with other options. A well optimized Knight played by you or someone else who is good with the class may hit low tier 4.

Paladin is low tier 4, if it gets a lot of splatbook love. Core paladin is tier 5.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0

Most of the tier 3 classes can either tank AND do other things, or can turn enemies into pet tanks and still do other things.

[Susano-wo]

ON a theoretical level, Reach+Stand still (as was mentioned earlier) would be a perfectly good way for any Class with enough Hp's and the ability to put at least 14 to Dex for the Combat Reflexes to tank. Its not 100%, but it at least gives you a 10ft R circle of "hard to get by." (especially with the PF version that doesn't have the reflex save)