[3.5] A Cloistered Champion of Legacy

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm planning on making some 3.5 characters that I can just use on-the-fly for games I join. The first one I want to make is a character with the Ordained Champion prestige class from Complete Champion and wields the greatsword Merikel from Weapons of Legacy.

I know what I need. The requirements for the PRC are:

Alignment: Any lawful, neutral good or neutral evil.
Skill: Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks.
Feat: Weapon Focus with deity's favored weapon.
Spellcasting: Able to cast magic weapon as a divine spell.
Special: Must worship Hextor or Heironeous.

And the requirements to use Merikel are:

Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells
Base attack bonus +3

Obviously I plan on being a Lawful Good follower of Heironeous.

I know that I can get most of these simply through the cleric class, but I was wondering specifically HOW to do this. To that end, I thought of the possibility of using the Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana and some levels of Fighter. That way I'd be able to justify the possibility of taking Knowledge Devotion, which is, from what I've seen and heard, a magnificent feat. My idea is this:

Cloistered Cleric X/Fighter 1?/Ordained Champion 5/Some other prestige class?

I'd start with the Knowledge Domain, which Cloistered Clerics get for free, and then I'd take the War domain for Weapon Focus. This would leave one domain for my choosing now, plus another one when I take Ordained Champion. What are some good choices for domains for Heironeous worshipers? I know Merikel is a greatsword, and not Heironeous' favored weapon, but I like the story behind it, and would like to pursue the blade's redemption. Are there other Prestige classes that would help?

How can I make this concept effective?

[subject42]

Rather than taking Knowledge devotion as a feat, it might be worth swapping out the knowledge domain for the feat as per the rules in complete warrior. It gives you a bit more wiggle room in your feat selection.

[Akal Saris]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to make an on-the-fly character that starts with a legacy weapon, as many DMs might not accept that.

Anyhow, here's a possible build that's heavy on melee:

Human Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Gets BAB +19 (No need for divine power!), CL 15

Or:

Human Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Raven 10/Contemplative 1

Gets BAB +17, CL 17

Or:

Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Raven 1/Legacy Champion 10

Gets BAB +15, CL 15, and you can change a bunch of stuff on your legacy weapon. Not really a great build but a bit more themey I suppose.

For domains, good and war aren't that bad to start with. Trade good's domain power for a fighter bonus feat when you enter Ordained Champion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to make an on-the-fly character that starts with a legacy weapon, as many DMs might not accept that.

Anyhow, here's a possible build that's heavy on melee:

Human Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10

Gets BAB +19 (No need for divine power!), CL 15
I could see this working (and I've always wanted to try using Tome of Battle's goodies), but don't Ruby Knight Vindicators need to worship Wee Jas?

Or:

Human Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Raven 10/Contemplative 1

Gets BAB +17, CL 17

Or:

Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Knight of the Raven 1/Legacy Champion 10

Gets BAB +15, CL 15, and you can change a bunch of stuff on your legacy weapon. Not really a great build but a bit more themey I suppose.
I'm not familiar with the Knight of the Raven PrC. And I'm not really concerned with changing Merikel, if that's the focus of the Legacy Champion PrC. Is that PrC any good?

For domains, good and war aren't that bad to start with. Trade good's domain power for a fighter bonus feat when you enter Ordained Champion.
What about the extra one you get when you take Ordained Champion and already have the War Domain? I was thinking of taking Law and then swapping out the domain power for Law Devotion, which I've been told is another good Devotion feat.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I found information on the Knights of the Raven. It looks interesting though it's not quite what I was thinking. I was thinking of being more along the lines of a devil-slayer than an undead-slayer, since Merikel became a devil after he fell, and I was toying with the idea of the character joining the Knights of the Chalice, who hunt evil outsiders.

And I'm still not sure about the Ruby Knight Vindicator. From what I remember, that class was also focused on undead-slaying, since it's geared toward followers of Wee Jas, the goddes of death as magic.

I know there's also the Knight of the Chalice PrC itself, but that'd kill my caster level, and while I could play a paladin/KotC, I'd like to play something a bit more effective than a 3.5 paladin since 3.5 paladins are very cumbersome to optimize. I can roleplay a paladin just fine, it's the stat building that sucks with them.

[Gametime]

And I'm still not sure about the Ruby Knight Vindicator. From what I remember, that class was also focused on undead-slaying, since it's geared toward followers of Wee Jas, the goddes of death as magic.



Not really. The class does burn a lot of turn undead attempts to power its abilities, but the abilities it gets don't have anything to do with fighting undead. Nor with fighting devils, for that matter; it's just a really good fightin' cleric prestige class.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But isn't still for Wee Jas worshipers only? I looked at the requirements the other day and I'm pretty sure Deity: Wee Jas was one of them. :smallconfused:

[SurlySeraph]

Yes, and right after that is "Adaptation," where it says "you could easily adapt it to crusaders devoted to almost any other deity."

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I don't know. Upon closer examination, the class seems to be a sort of "divine black-ops" PrC, and that's not really what I'm going for with this character. I don't think the church of Heironeous, the god of valor and chivalry, would resort to such skullduggery, especially since one of the faiths the adaptation said would work well for reflavoring the class to was Hextor's, my god of choice's ancient enemy.

[Akal Saris]

It all depends how much you and your hypothetical DM care about fluff. If you apply for a Forgotten Realms game, what then? Are RKV and Ordained Champion off-limits because FR has different deities, or do you adapt them?

It's just my opinion, but RKV has only one stealth-based ability, and it's to wear full plate while hiding, which fits pretty well for an armored cleric type who doesn't want to ruin things for his party. It's really a very good 'fightin cleric' PrC.

Exorcist of the Silver Flame: If you can adapt eberron material, this is a decent devil-killing divine PrC if I recall. Follows the Silver FLame, which is pretty easy to adapt to Hieroneous.

Good luck!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What book is that in?

[Gametime]

It's just my opinion, but RKV has only one stealth-based ability, and it's to wear full plate while hiding, which fits pretty well for an armored cleric type who doesn't want to ruin things for his party. It's really a very good 'fightin cleric' PrC.



The fact that it doesn't apply to Move Silently is kind of a drag for any actual stealth, though. If you do go with this class, it's worth seeing if your DM will extend the ability to that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Found the Exorcist of the Silver Flame PRC and I must say I like it. I could change the fluff for a Heironeous worshiper and change the fire-based boosts to electricity-based ones, as per the symbol of Heironeous, mighty lord of the thunderheads.

So the idea would be something like:

Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Ordained Champion 5/"Exorcist of the Invincible Lightning" 10

Would I be able to use the Cloistered Cleric variant and still be effective? I ask because you need rather high Knowledge skills to be effective with a Legacy Weapon, and I feel that it'd be appropriate for the concept I'm starting to form in my mind of a priest who initially is merely a scholar but slowly shapes up to become a true warrior for his god during his quest to redeem the sword Merikel once and for all.

[Flickerdart]

Entering from a Favored Soul base should cover all of those requirements, no? Provided, of course, that your DM rectifies the retarded absence of Know:Religion on their list.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I was under the impression that Favored Souls were a sub-par base class though. :smallconfused:

EDIT: Besides, Favored Souls don't have access to domains, which means I'm losing out on some of the class features from the Ordained Champion PrC.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, here's my first attempt at a build. Lemme know if I'm doin' something wrong:

Cloistered Cleric 1: Able Learner, Law Devotion
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Cloistered Cleric 2: Knowledge Devotion
Cloistered Cleric 3:
Cloistered Cleric 4: Least Legacy (Merikel)
Ordained Champion 1: Practiced Spellcaster (cleric), Power Attack (replace Knowledge domain granted power), Blind Fight (replace Law domain granted power), Cleave (replace Good domain granted power)
Ordained Champion 2:
Ordained Champion 3:
Ordained Champion 4: Leadership
Ordained Champion 5:
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 1: Lesser Legacy (Merikel)
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 2: Holy Warrior
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 3:
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 4:
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 5: Awesome Smite
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 6:
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 7: Greater Legacy (Merikel)
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 8: Persistent Spell
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 9:
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 10:

I get a glut of Fighter Bonus Feats at 6th level because of the Combat Feats feature from the Ordained Champion PrC, which allows you to replace your domain powers with Fighter Bonus feats, plus I get a bonus domain at that level as well, potentially allowing me to have 3 Fighter Bonus feats. The Legacy feats are free when I perform the rituals associated with them.

I'm not sure how well my BAB will fare for several reasons. 1, the Cloistered Cleric variant uses the poor BAB progression, which gives me a very limited BAB until I get into Ordained Champion. 2, Merikel imposes an overall -2 to your BAB, as well as a -3 penalty to saves and a gradual loss of 16 hit points (4 at 6th level and 2 at levels 9, 12, 15, 18, 19 and 20).

These losses may make the Path of Hope ritual difficult, since in order to beat that challenge I need to defeat an outsider servant of Hextor in single combat armed only with Merikel. Would I be able to handle that?

Any questions? Comments? Concerns? Criticisms?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Been pondering changing the race to Hellbred, from Fiendish Codex II. Would the build still be effective?