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View Full Version : Dark Sun [4e]: Initial Thoughts



Shatteredtower
2010-06-24, 11:35 PM
It may be premature to say this, but balance seems much better thought out than it was in 2e, before or after Skills & Powers. I'm also glad to see they've undone the Denning damage to the world, resetting history to the way it was shortly after the opening events in Tyr, rather than over a decade later.

The reknown point system has its merits. Is it enough to make up for the dearth of cash prizes? We'll see, though we've yet to earn enough to get even a one-time bonus on an untrained skill check.

The system does feature the only critical failure rule I've ever liked, because it's focused on giving players a potentially useful choice.

Module design needs work, as it's thus far completely inflexible on the option of allowing us to take extended rests. I'm fine with those having consequences on later events, but being told, *You can't,* violates principles laid down in both DMGs. It was still fun, but that was a needless irritation.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-25, 12:04 AM
Eh, that's more a 'DnD Encounters' thing than Dark Sun related, I suspect. (The Rests thing.)

Gralamin
2010-06-25, 12:39 AM
The Full Campaign setting is not released, so I imagine whatever info you have is from Encounters. I'll wait for the full book before evaluating it.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-25, 12:53 AM
Eh, that's more a 'DnD Encounters' thing than Dark Sun related, I suspect. (The Rests thing.)

Probably. Not the best way to introduce a system if it drastically contradicts a major principle for running a game well, though.

I wasn't thrilled with one of the counter-intuitive solutions we learned about after last night's encounter. Again, an Encounters thing, but as that's being used to give a first impression of the world, I think it's a fair point to make.

It's still better than half of the 2e material, designed by people that never paid attention to their own rules.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-25, 01:22 AM
The Full Campaign setting is not released, so I imagine whatever info you have is from Encounters. I'll wait for the full book before evaluating it.

Maybe you missed the part about initial impressions? Still wrong, since half of it comes from a review of the Free RPG Day module. I found that was generally more flexibly paced and better justified when it was not, but it's still a factor that may be deliberate for a world always portrayed as less forgiving than most. The character cards were laid out better with the Encounters set, but that's not relevant to the main game.

I doubt much will change with campaign background, however, and it's pretty unlikely they'll change that critical failure rule. (It's that good.) I haven't seen enough to comment on the defiler rules, but the mechanics mentioned for the one in the free module seemed balanced, even if there's a good chance a party might eventually kill you for using them.

Katana_Geldar
2010-06-25, 08:21 AM
I'm also glad to see they've undone the Denning damage to the world, resetting history to the way it was shortly after the opening events in Tyr, rather than over a decade later.


Out of interest, what was the "Denning damage"? I am not familiar with Dark Sun but know how he damages other franchises.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-25, 10:19 AM
I doubt much will change with campaign background, however, and it's pretty unlikely they'll change that critical failure rule. (It's that good.) I haven't seen enough to comment on the defiler rules, but the mechanics mentioned for the one in the free module seemed balanced, even if there's a good chance a party might eventually kill you for using them.

Are you kidding? They changed a lot!
First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible. (Only Dregoth can access other planes)
And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone. And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.

It's total BS what their doing to my favorite game world. And whenever I try to say anything the party just tells me "It's 4th edition. They change stuff because they can."

Lhurgyof
2010-06-25, 10:21 AM
Out of interest, what was the "Denning damage"? I am not familiar with Dark Sun but know how he damages other franchises.

He didn't really ruin the game that much, he wrote a book series on Dark Sun wherein some characters killed major NPC's. And then they came out with a revised campaign setting to go along with it.
Good book series, bad idea to incorporate it into the game.

Randalor
2010-06-25, 10:53 AM
I've been playing in the weekly encounters game. Thankfully, our GM is playing a bit looser with the module, he switched out the goblins for another race that was in the setting, and we've actually found a way to get one person to have an extended rest, albit at the cost of an automatic fail on a skillcheck.

Renchard
2010-06-25, 12:26 PM
Are you kidding? They changed a lot!
First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible. (Only Dregoth can access other planes)
I wasn't aware they had realized the back story of tieflings in Dark Sun yet. 4e tieflings aren't the offspring of fiends and mortals, after all.



And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone. And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.
Maybe in 4e, that didn't happen. But no, you're right. This change obviously turns Dark Sun from a cruel desert world into Candy Land.


It's total BS what their doing to my favorite game world. And whenever I try to say anything the party just tells me "It's 4th edition. They change stuff because they can."
Your party says that because they're right. There's a point where being a fan becomes rabid fanboyism, and you're inching pretty close to the "Raccoon in the morning, take warning" stage.

Satyr
2010-06-25, 12:39 PM
I am not familiar with the free preview Dark Sun stuff, but there is a valid point to Lhurgyof's criticism, even if it might seem like nitpicking: Dark Sun has always been a very limited and small setting with a very specific and local appearance and unique ideas.
The (re-)introduction of goblins, tieflings and the like - which had no place in the setting, and as far as I can tell, weren't needed either - makes it more likely that the setting turns out to be yet another kitchen sink with only little variation and this would hurt the more unique feeling of the setting and thus its overall appeal as the distinct character of the setting would have to make place for the general standard fare. If this is the case -and right now this is only speculation - this does not enrichen the setting - it hurts its particular feeling.

Draz74
2010-06-25, 01:01 PM
Yeah, different settings are actually interesting largely because they can pick different pieces of the standard D&D amalgamation to leave out.

And that's a disadvantage WotC settings face: they're kind of under a lot of pressure to preserve as many races and power sources as possible.

Kaiser Omnik
2010-06-25, 01:05 PM
Let's not overreact, guys. It's just Encounters. Let's wait for the final product to judge Dark Sun 4E overall, shall we?

P.s.: Title is a bit misleading. Some may think you have the actual Dark Sun books (even if they're not even printed yet).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-25, 01:33 PM
I would expect 4E Dark Sun to contain all the PHB races, but probably not the Forgotten Realms Drow and Genasi, nor the Eberron Warforged. That's pretty much what they did to the other settings, after all. I'm not sure this is a big deal; individual DMs can always leave out what races they don't like.

Of course, if WOTC decides to release Living Dark Sun, there's going to be a riot... :smalltongue:

Satyr
2010-06-25, 01:46 PM
Introducing Dragonborn in Dark Sun would be a great way to affirm that the 4th edition setting is Dark Sun in name only.

But yes, all this speculation is a bit premature.

Kaiser Omnik
2010-06-25, 01:52 PM
Won't people stop with the "x in name only"? It's no different than "4th edition as D&D in name only" thing. It's insulting to those who like Dark Sun and decide that it can be Dark Sun even with dragonborn. Maybe you don't consider it Dark Sun anymore. But it's your opinion; it's not a fact.

The Dragonborn will basically be Dray, an original Dark Sun "species engineered by the Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, Dregoth, to have draconic traits."

Touchy
2010-06-25, 02:19 PM
Won't people stop with the "x in name only"? It's no different than "4th edition as D&D in name only" thing. It's insulting to those who like Dark Sun and decide that it can be Dark Sun even with dragonborn. Maybe you don't consider it Dark Sun anymore. But it's your opinion; it's not a fact.

The Dragonborn will basically be Dray, an original Dark Sun "species engineered by the Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, Dregoth, to have draconic traits."

Seeing as the fact that Goliath's are now Half-Giants, Tieflings will probably be a different race.

Kudos if I can see them implement all their races in Dark Sun.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-06-25, 02:21 PM
/tg/ had a link to a blog post where they explained how eladrin worked into the setting, but I can't find it now.

Mando Knight
2010-06-25, 02:27 PM
/tg/ had a link to a blog post where they explained how eladrin worked into the setting, but I can't find it now.

Probably like they are in FR: "oh, they're just the magicky elves."

Kurald Galain
2010-06-25, 02:36 PM
Introducing Dragonborn in Dark Sun would be a great way to affirm that the 4th edition setting is Dark Sun in name only.
Perhaps they're Dragonborn In Name Only :smalltongue:

(edit) It has been officially confirmed (http://community.wizards.com/geneome/blog/2010/06/18/draygonborns?pref_tab=profile) that 4EDS will have Dragonborn. I can't find an official source on tieflings, though.


Probably like they are in FR: "oh, they're just the magicky elves."
Well, FR did have four elf races in earlier editions...

BobTheDog
2010-06-25, 04:33 PM
Well, FR did have fourty elf races in earlier editions...

FIFY. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 04:37 PM
I've seen quite a few people complaining that 3rd ed made a big mistake when it created a Wood elf race for Faerun, and insisting that elf hybridization can't create a new elf race- it's only Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and Green (Wild) Elves.

(this is elf subraces besides drow)

I'm not sure how they felt about the Star Elves in Unapproachable East.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-25, 04:45 PM
Perhaps they're Dragonborn In Name Only :smalltongue:

(edit) It has been officially confirmed (http://community.wizards.com/geneome/blog/2010/06/18/draygonborns?pref_tab=profile) that 4EDS will have Dragonborn. I can't find an official source on tieflings, though.


Well, FR did have four elf races in earlier editions...

Ah, ****. Dragonborn too?
Well, them as dray would work. But do dragonborn get int bonuses? I'm not a big 4e player, so I wouldn't know.

But yeah, my favorite part of Dark Sun is that it was different. Everything was different from regular D&D. The alignment lines are blurred, the halflings aren't furry-footed happy fat asses, they're friggin' cannibals! And the half-giants can change from happy and fun to hateful and evil in a day.

But on a different note- they were called "Sand goblins". So I'm pretty sure that either WotC decided to just do whatever they want with Dark Sun or that the Encounters team is quite unfimiliar with the game world.

And to the people claiming I'm a rabid fanboy- the genocide of almost every race on Athas was a very important part of the story, so I'm pretty pissed that they just decided to ignore the whole plot of the gameworld.

Kaiser Omnik
2010-06-25, 04:57 PM
Ah, ****. Dragonborn too?
Well, them as dray would work. But do dragonborn get int bonuses? I'm not a big 4e player, so I wouldn't know.

But yeah, my favorite part of Dark Sun is that it was different. Everything was different from regular D&D. The alignment lines are blurred, the halflings aren't furry-footed happy fat asses, they're friggin' cannibals! And the half-giants can change from happy and fun to hateful and evil in a day.

But on a different note- they were called "Sand goblins". So I'm pretty sure that either WotC decided to just do whatever they want with Dark Sun or that the Encounters team is quite unfimiliar with the game world.

And to the people claiming I'm a rabid fanboy- the genocide of almost every race on Athas was a very important part of the story, so I'm pretty pissed that they just decided to ignore the whole plot of the gameworld.

Bolded part is at least still true.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-25, 08:32 PM
Are you kidding? They changed a lot!

Sorry, wasn't clear there. What I mean to say is that I doubt they're going to change much of the background they've established for themselves within 4e from now until release. In many ways, it's not the same world it was in 2E, though that was at least three different worlds within one edition, as far as I'm concerned.

(I never signed on for the nonsense they introduced about Path Dexter and Path Sinister magic, the nerfing of ability scores so that a 20 was sometimes worth less than an 18 elsewhere, or the complete hash Skills and Powers made of psionics. The ideas for the Kreen, lifeshaper halflings, and the Last Sea were interesting, but the game pretty much abandoned the Valley of Tyr by the end. The Dragon was a big deal at one time and then some executive order had it eliminated by background events. Giustenal also had its appeal, but I wouldn't mind a different approach to the issue of the Dray.)


First off, there's a tiefling. A tiefling in a world where interplanar travel is all but impossible.

The world was funny about things like that. Powers that summoned extraplanar creatures were never actually eliminated from the game. There was all sorts of discussion about how they wouldn't work for players in later books, but the mechanics of it were... lacking.

According to the Free RPG Day material, this version of the world will be a setting in which the Primordials won the God War. I doubt they'll change that this late in the game, though why the world didn't cease to be shortly after that wasn't answered. Maybe the primordials took a different attitude to the project than was reported on the "official (divine) channels" --at least as far as this world's concerned. As for abyssal influence, I don't find it antithematic to a world that saw the corruption of Rajaat's tamperings mutate some humans to display one or more atypical traits.


And second off, what the hell is the deal with there being Goblins? Daskinor Goblin Death killed ever single one. On the whole planet. Gone.

Hamanu slaughtered all the trolls, but one of my favourite Dragon adventures for Dark Sun featured an encounter with one last troll. Likewise, Keltis supposedly killed all the lizard men, but lied. I'd be okay with a decision to declare certain acts to have been "exaggerated".

Another possibility is that the goblins in question were "place-holder" monsters for something else, as the lizardfolk are for ssurrans at present, at least according to Free RPG Day material. I wouldn't know either way. Still, you can see I have my own pet peeves about the place, so I'm in no position to condemn yours.

I wouldn't be surprised if they decided that goblins were less hassle than aarakocra, a player race that could fly three times faster than anyone else could walk. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if the game took a dim view to the possibility of a race with overland flight as a heroic tier ability.


And they too would be unable to get here via planar travel.

In one of the later modules I read, the githyanki managed it, complete with a mind flayer in tow. Once the mountain's scaled, it's amazing how easily the task can be repeated.

You are right that the "Denning damage" charge is overstating things. I do not blame him for deciding how he wanted to write his stories, though we agree that TSR should not have followed his lead with their entire campaign world. It was bad enough that players were expected to be bystanders in the first major event in the world's transformation, but when they suddenly learn that the rulers of half of the remaining cities and the Dragon also get killed off in the background, they tend to feel trivialized.

That said, I will always remember Jeff Grubb's behind the scenes look at The Forgotten Realms comic for the one telephone operator (I believe it was Selune, in fact) telling her caller, "No, Mr. Denning, you may not blow up the moon."

I don't have the rule books for the 4e setting, of course, and I'd understandably be in a lot of trouble if I was leaking anything that wasn't already publically available. A lot hasn't been revealed. We can still be pretty sure that Athasian halflings are still nasty pieces of work, the elves are difficult people for outsiders to trust, the kreen still hold to a pack mentality, and the gods aren't granting anyone any spells. Trust still appears to be a more difficult commodity to acquire than steel, which is still scarce here.

The promotional module used goliaths for half-giants. Sure, why not? The only thing that needs tweaking are the fluff elements, same as for the elves and halflings. I'm not sold on what they mention about the eladrin's place in this world, but I'm willing to wait and see what they have in mind -- or if they ultimately decided it was best to remove them altogether. Perhaps they'll take the place of the pyreen?

I'm pretty sure they'll keep the reknown point mechanic, though they'll likely tweak it by the time the game set's released. What I've seen of gladitorial combat in the free module shows that a few of the designers have a few nice ideas for gladitorial games that are about more than just combat, without being too complicated.

As I said, though, the big thing that impressed me about what I've seen were the rules that gave players options to reroll failure in some cases, if they were willing to pay another kind of penalty for the chance. These ideas helped get across the hazards of defiling magic and makeshift weaponry pretty well in a way that gives players more opportunity to shine by letting them raise the stakes with certain failures.

Gralamin
2010-06-25, 08:43 PM
I am not familiar with the free preview Dark Sun stuff, but there is a valid point to Lhurgyof's criticism, even if it might seem like nitpicking: Dark Sun has always been a very limited and small setting with a very specific and local appearance and unique ideas.
The (re-)introduction of goblins, tieflings and the like - which had no place in the setting, and as far as I can tell, weren't needed either - makes it more likely that the setting turns out to be yet another kitchen sink with only little variation and this would hurt the more unique feeling of the setting and thus its overall appeal as the distinct character of the setting would have to make place for the general standard fare. If this is the case -and right now this is only speculation - this does not enrichen the setting - it hurts its particular feeling.
The Insider articles related to Dark Sun explained why they were trying to allow everything in (other then trying to avoid people not buying other supplements because they play Dark Sun): Its easier for a DM who is new to a setting to take out things then it is to add them in. If you want to go classic Dark Sun, restricting the available classes and races, it shouldn't be to hard.

Now, I don't know about the monster races that were killed of (such as goblins). I know they do not appear in Bloodsand Arena. I know nothing of Encounters. So whether thats actually in the setting, or just the encounters team being stupid, we will see. I for one am looking forward to it.

Somebloke
2010-06-26, 06:31 AM
From what I understand of the Tieflings, Dragonborn and Eldarin:

- The Tiefling are some sort of wandering race, similar to the elves. No comments on how they came about but I suppose mutation and the defiling will have a place in their backstory.

- Dragonborn are some version of Dray that left the Dragon some time ago. They are a merchant race, treacherous and charismatic, and operate from fortified enclaves in the wastes.

- The Eldarin are a bit like haflings in that they tend to dislike outsiders. The Feywild has been changed from a realm of plenty into tiny isolated pockets of wasteland where the rules of nature are warped and dreamlike (or nightmarish). These are hidden by the Eldarin, who have abandoned magic entirely and focus exclusively on psionics. The impression I got was like Alladin's cave or 'pocket' Narnias, except that instead of talking beavers or immense treasure you get a big fat serving of psychic torture and then death.

Corvus
2010-06-26, 04:12 PM
The goblins turned up in Encounters as the encounter designer didn't really know enough about Dark Sun history and he wanted a race of small monsters for the fight. Most knowledgeable DMs re-skinned them straight away.

Dragonborn are Dray in DS4e, the lizardman race created by Dregoth. Not sure if they are meant to be the failed first generation or the more successful second. The new dragonfear variant dragonborn (swap dragonbreath for a fear attack) would work much better for Dray.

The Eladrin are being skinned as some sort of djinn, a new concept in DS. The Athas Feywild has been reduced to a few scattered pockets of magical ultra-deserts, even more inhospitable than regular Athas. The Eladrin know that defiling magic has caused the destruction of Athas and through it the feywild and use psionics and not arcane magic now - and are generally only seen when they go out kill arcane users. its an intriguing idea, though whether as an old school DS fan I'd use it I'm not sure yet.

The tieflings - well, I wouldn't allow them. Nor deva, half-orcs, warforged, shardminds, wilden, minotaurs and a bunch of other races. If you do want to use them, then the Pristine Tower is your friend.

BobTheDog
2010-06-26, 05:00 PM
The tieflings - well, I wouldn't allow them. Nor deva, half-orcs, warforged, shardminds, wilden, minotaurs and a bunch of other races. If you do want to use them, then the Pristine Tower is your friend.

I see a lot of this "No tieflings" feeling. Is this based on their old fluff (watered-down half-fiends), on their Planescape origins or on their new fluff (greedy humans who made a deal with the Devil)?

I understand you cannot answer for the whole DS fanbase, but I don't really see the point in banning a mechanical concept because of something that will, most likely, be adapted to the setting.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-26, 09:21 PM
Minotaurs do bear a little resemblance to beast-headed giants, so there are ways it could work. It's hard to say what the designers plan to do about giants anyway.

Deva and half-orcs shouldn't be too hard to adapt. You could even use their abilities for alternative humans, as long as it's based on background, not region.

As for gnomes, it's funny that they bore some resemblance to Athasian halflings at times. Before later rules overturned it, they were even allowed to become illusionists. (It makes more sense than giving Athasian halflings a thieving bonus.)

That brings up another major change: we should expect all races allowed to be able to play any permitted class. Half-giants and dwarves weren't allowed to play wizards and such back then. It messes up the reason Rajaat gave for picking human, not halfling, champions, which is kind of a bigger deal than letting tieflings play.

Asbestos
2010-06-27, 01:48 AM
From what I understand of the Tieflings, Dragonborn and Eldarin:

- The Tiefling are some sort of wandering race, similar to the elves. No comments on how they came about but I suppose mutation and the defiling will have a place in their backstory.

- Dragonborn are some version of Dray that left the Dragon some time ago. They are a merchant race, treacherous and charismatic, and operate from fortified enclaves in the wastes.

- The Eldarin are a bit like haflings in that they tend to dislike outsiders. The Feywild has been changed from a realm of plenty into tiny isolated pockets of wasteland where the rules of nature are warped and dreamlike (or nightmarish). These are hidden by the Eldarin, who have abandoned magic entirely and focus exclusively on psionics. The impression I got was like Alladin's cave or 'pocket' Narnias, except that instead of talking beavers or immense treasure you get a big fat serving of psychic torture and then death.

Someone's been reading Richard Baker's blogs, eh? The remaining pockets of Feywild are still nature turned up to 11, except since 'nature' is 'desert wasteland', then the Feywild is like 'wasteland extreme'. Baker referred to the Eladrin as almost Djinn-like (Earth Folklore Djinn, not D&D Djinn)

Somebloke
2010-06-27, 04:13 AM
Someone's been reading Richard Baker's blogs, eh? The remaining pockets of Feywild are still nature turned up to 11, except since 'nature' is 'desert wasteland', then the Feywild is like 'wasteland extreme'. Baker referred to the Eladrin as almost Djinn-like (Earth Folklore Djinn, not D&D Djinn)

So long as there are big hot servings of cruel death it will all be good.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 10:00 AM
I see a lot of this "No tieflings" feeling. Is this based on their old fluff (watered-down half-fiends), on their Planescape origins or on their new fluff (greedy humans who made a deal with the Devil)?

I understand you cannot answer for the whole DS fanbase, but I don't really see the point in banning a mechanical concept because of something that will, most likely, be adapted to the setting.

Because there's no inter-planar travel to or from Dark Sun as a general rule. The only person who can actually accomplish this task is Dregoth.
So, there are no deities granting spells, there are no devils to deal with, and there are no ways for tieflings to pass the gray.

And chances are, if a new race somehow, by chance of luck, got onto Dark Sun, they wouldn't do too well (loss of magic due to it functioning differently, hostile environment full of mind-benders, horrible bigotry, no money, etc., etc.). So you're looking at a race that's pretty puny and pathetic when put up against the Athasian wastes who have literally no money or way to use any magic they may have had. Can you say slaves? (Oh, and if they had metal, I'm sure that'd just entice people to kill them even more xD)

Shatteredtower
2010-06-27, 02:44 PM
Because there's no inter-planar travel to or from Dark Sun as a general rule.

The core rules contradict your claim. Astral Spell and Plane Shift are still on the spell lists, though the only elemental clerics that can use them serve air. Summon Planar Creature wasn't barred, nor any other psychoportative power.

The setting exists in an alternate reality where the primordials defeated the gods. That impacts every plane (the Feywild, for example, is a collection of unconnected pockets), which could cover your import concerns.

As for tieflings, I doubt the Athasian version matches core history any more than that of goliaths match half-giants, even if they're mechanically the same.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 03:09 PM
The core rules contradict your claim. Astral Spell and Plane Shift are still on the spell lists, though the only elemental clerics that can use them serve air. Summon Planar Creature wasn't barred, nor any other psychoportative power.

The setting exists in an alternate reality where the primordials defeated the gods. That impacts every plane (the Feywild, for example, is a collection of unconnected pockets), which could cover your import concerns.

As for tieflings, I doubt the Athasian version matches core history any more than that of goliaths match half-giants, even if they're mechanically the same.

As long as it's the inner planes, ie the elemental ones and the astral plane. But other than that, no other planar travel should be in Dark Sun. Without the planar gate, which is the only way to get out to the outer planes. I think there's some way via the astral plane, not sure, haven't read the old books recently.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 07:53 PM
I just hope they undo the Prism Pentad. Either by reversing time to the original campaign setting or by setting it far ahead in time. Because, surely the freedom of Tyr will be returned to the norm by the remaining Sorcerer kings.
I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Denning, of course. I liked the books (except the part where a child destroyed Rajaat's body) But it just seems like it was meant for players to do, not NPC's from a book. I even have a copy of Dragon Kings signed by him.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-27, 11:03 PM
I agree that you have to moderate cross-plane traffic to and from Athas for the standard feel, but even allowing access to the elemental planes as generally understood could break the feeling of the world.

For example, a visit to the plane of water with seven half-giants and several large casks could easily bring back 200 gallons a trip. That's nothing compared to what could be accomplished with a visit to the City of Brass, even if using it as a trading port with Sigil killed you on the exchange rate. You're better off setting the whole world and everything it contacts apart from the standard cosmology, as is apparently being done.

The tieflings, with their ancient (Green Age) origin, don't seem that out of place for a world in which the kreen believe hell to be a cold place (Kano) guarded by a frozen insectoid called Galug (gelugon, or ice devil), according to Thri-Kreen of Athas.

Somebloke
2010-06-28, 08:23 AM
I just hope they undo the Prism Pentad. Either by reversing time to the original campaign setting or by setting it far ahead in time. Because, surely the freedom of Tyr will be returned to the norm by the remaining Sorcerer kings.
I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Denning, of course. I liked the books (except the part where a child destroyed Rajaat's body) But it just seems like it was meant for players to do, not NPC's from a book. I even have a copy of Dragon Kings signed by him.The campaign is set a few weeks after the death of the Sorcerer-King of Tyr...the idea being that the stable dynamic of the world has just been thrown out of kilter and it is up to the players (and DM) to decide what happens next.

Susano-wo
2010-06-28, 05:08 PM
To be fair to haters: there are a lot of seeming little things that could easily break the setting. To be fair to Non-Haters, though: something like Tieflings, even if not refluffed, can easily be explained, since they are their own race now, as having existed *before* the corruption of Athas.

I'm mostly worried about the encounter focus of 4E (even beyond 3E) making what was (or at least what interested me as?) a more political/social/adventure-survival setting into "Dark-Sun: Where the Dungeons have Sand!" :D
As well as the inherent hard to kill nature of 4E PC's making the harsh survival aspect severely "nerfed," so to speak.
Highly skeptical, but will definitely give it a look-see when it comes out.

BobTheDog
2010-06-28, 05:18 PM
To be fair to haters: there are a lot of seeming little things that could easily break the setting. To be fair to Non-Haters, though: something like Tieflings, even if not refluffed, can easily be explained, since they are their own race now, as having existed *before* the corruption of Athas.

I'm mostly worried about the encounter focus of 4E (even beyond 3E) making what was (or at least what interested me as?) a more political/social/adventure-survival setting into "Dark-Sun: Where the Dungeons have Sand!" :D
As well as the inherent hard to kill nature of 4E PC's making the harsh survival aspect severely "nerfed," so to speak.
Highly skeptical, but will definitely give it a look-see when it comes out.

The bolded part is what I really expect to see in the CS book. Rules/suggestions for killing challenging your players using only the environment.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-28, 11:04 PM
I'm mostly worried about the encounter focus of 4E (even beyond 3E) making what was (or at least what interested me as?) a more political/social/adventure-survival setting into "Dark-Sun: Where the Dungeons have Sand!" :D
As well as the inherent hard to kill nature of 4E PC's making the harsh survival aspect severely "nerfed," so to speak.

There was some effort to address the political intrigue in the free module, but we'll see how it goes. Railroading still looks like it could be a factor, but it hasn't compared to to the original's worst excesses thus far.

One other oddity I've noticed on character sheets for both the free module and Encounters: everyone got a bonus encounter power. That could just be an error, though.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-29, 02:42 AM
One other oddity I've noticed on character sheets for both the free module and Encounters: everyone got a bonus encounter power. That could just be an error, though.

No, that is design. Because DS is a harsh world, every character gets a "theme" which gives it an extra L1 encounter power, as well as access to certain feats and higher level powers.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-29, 07:51 AM
No, that is design. Because DS is a harsh world, every character gets a "theme" which gives it an extra L1 encounter power, as well as access to certain feats and higher level powers.

Good to know, thanks. Not always that helpful, such as when you have the Arcane Reserves feat, but there's always an exchange.

Susano-wo
2010-06-29, 01:22 PM
@shattered: Well, that's cool. I really do hope it works out. I love Dark sun, and it'd be nice to have a supported Dark Sun again, but it has to feel like Dark Sun to me--everything doesn't have to be the same, but there is such a thing as Dark Sun in Name Only (though YMMV, which is hopefully obvious :P)

@Bob: 100%agree! Dehydration, CR20 :P(yeah, yeah, I know they don't do that anymore >.>)

NeoVid
2010-06-29, 01:54 PM
Introducing Dragonborn in Dark Sun would be a great way to affirm that the 4th edition setting is Dark Sun in name only.

But yes, all this speculation is a bit premature.

I think there was an official statement that the allowed races in DS will be PHB1's races, Goliaths, and the two new DS races. Goliaths are called half-giants in this setting, and Dragonborn are called Dray.

Also, Thri-kreen are Medium two-legged creatures that can use mounts now, which has caused a 20+ page thread on the official forums that says this isn't really Dark Sun.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-29, 01:59 PM
Also, Thri-kreen are Medium two-legged creatures that can use mounts now, which has caused a 20+ page thread on the official forums that says this isn't really Dark Sun.
Wait, I thought they had always been two-legged? I've seen several sources depict them that way.

I'm sad they can't quad-wield any more, though.

NeoVid
2010-06-29, 02:03 PM
Wait, I thought they had always been two-legged? I've seen several sources depict them that way.

I'm sad they can't quad-wield any more, though.

Nope, I was looking over some 2nd ed DS just a few weeks ago, and found out they were Large with 4 legs back then.

hamishspence
2010-06-29, 02:05 PM
Every 3rd ed depiction of them I've seen (and the 4E MM3) has shown two legs, four arms.

Were they different in 2nd ed?

EDIT: sounds like it.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 02:07 PM
I thought Thri-Kreen had two legs and four arms?

Are they down to 4 limbs, or is it just a classification issue between arms and legs?

Swordsage'd >_>

russdm
2010-06-29, 03:51 PM
He didn't really ruin the game that much, he wrote a book series on Dark Sun wherein some characters killed major NPC's. And then they came out with a revised campaign setting to go along with it.
Good book series, bad idea to incorporate it into the game.

Changed this to being about FR, and you have its total messed up deal.

Dark Sun

As I recall, the Githyanki tried to invade it and left saying that is suicide to go back there.

I have played 2nd Edition Dark Sun some. The defiler magic and sorceror-king angles are important here and so would need to be present. If there are "exagerrations" about how many things being killed, fine. If a small number of a race hide so they would not be found, its understandable if they are still around.

A couple of things I don't think I would understand:

Gnomes: Gnomes were not in the original stuff. I hate to see them in 4th Edition here. They are completely out of place here. Besides gnomes are annoying.

Dragonborn: Calling them dray (Whatever that is) seems strange. I'm sure that the dragon sorceror-kings would consider making servants more easily controlled then humans and so would experiment around some, creating dragonborn to serve them.

Feywild/Shadowfell: Its hard to understand exactly how each of these would work. Also traveling there would be strange.

Elemental Chaos: Given that DS clerics worshipped elements, lacking the Elemental Chaos here would make DS clerics look stupid.

Gods: DS doesn't have any, so clerics serve either sorceror-kings or elements.

Tieflings: I think personally that Tieflings would be easy to implement into DS. There are easy story stuff to make for them I think.

Parting thoughts: I am excited to see whats happening for Dark Sun. I happen to really like that setting and I am thrilled its coming out.

NeoVid
2010-06-29, 04:05 PM
Gnomes: Gnomes were not in the original stuff. I hate to see them in 4th Edition here. They are completely out of place here. Besides gnomes are annoying.

Dragonborn: Calling them dray (Whatever that is) seems strange.

Gnomes weren't in the 4e PHB1, so they probably won't appear in DS.

I'm told Dray in 2e were a reptilian race created by a sorcerer-king as servants.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-29, 08:34 PM
Actually, I think the Dragonborn are going to be Ssurans. The Feywild is weird since pretty much all the fey were killed. (Especially those stupid little pixies).
And yes, Thri-kreen had 4 legs and an abdomen in 2nd edition. Each of the kreen were that way.

Dray was a race created by one of the sorcerer kings, long thought to be dead, so he waits in hiding.
The Dray are completely loyal to him, even the mutated 1st generation dray that are cast away and forced to live in Kragmorta.

Edit: Oh, and if gnomes are in Dark Sun 4e, I will go and slap whomever decided that was a good idea.

Otogi
2010-06-29, 08:57 PM
Edit: Oh, and if gnomes are in Dark Sun 4e, I will go and slap whomever decided that was a good idea.

Couldn't be any worse than the fanon where the world used to be full of high-tech halflings that mutated into the other races.

Zaq
2010-06-29, 09:09 PM
Actually, I think the Dragonborn are going to be Ssurans. The Feywild is weird since pretty much all the fey were killed. (Especially those stupid little pixies).
And yes, Thri-kreen had 4 legs and an abdomen in 2nd edition. Each of the kreen were that way.

Dray was a race created by one of the sorcerer kings, long thought to be dead, so he waits in hiding.
The Dray are completely loyal to him, even the mutated 1st generation dray that are cast away and forced to live in Kragmorta.

Edit: Oh, and if gnomes are in Dark Sun 4e, I will go and slap whomever decided that was a good idea.

I think you might benefit from thinking about Neo Dark Sun the way I had to make myself think about 4e as a whole. Basically, there really shouldn't be a baseline of "same" with a few minor differences. It's going to be radically different, and that's intentional. If it were exactly the same, paying money for it would be a ripoff. Just treat it like a whole new concept. I started enjoying 4e quite a lot as soon as I stopped trying to think about it as D&D. Now I quite like it.

Is it a good thing that everything's different? Well, maybe or maybe not. It's not automatically good. But simply accepting it (and realizing why I was accepting it) helped me rage a lot less and have a lot more fun.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-29, 09:43 PM
I have played 2nd Edition Dark Sun some. The defiler magic and sorceror-king angles are important here and so would need to be present.

It's still being acknowledged. The mechanics we've been shown favour defilers, but in a manner that could easily get them in hot water with their teammates. I don't know much of that will change by the release date.


Dragonborn: Calling them dray (Whatever that is) seems strange. I'm sure that the dragon sorceror-kings would consider making servants more easily controlled then humans and so would experiment around some, creating dragonborn to serve them.

Well, they did so with half-giants. I could see one or two kings dabbling in the giant/human crosses, another creating the first dray (and possibly being destroyed for it), and a third being involved in the equivalent of the original bargain that produced the tieflings.


Feywild/Shadowfell: Its hard to understand exactly how each of these would work. Also traveling there would be strange.

That's been acknowledged in one of the lead designer's notes, at least as far as the Feywild goes. Instead of one place, it's supposedly a bunch of unconnected pockets, and it sounds like none of the are going to be all that generous with green space either.


Elemental Chaos: Given that DS clerics worshipped elements, lacking the Elemental Chaos here would make DS clerics look stupid.

Oddly enough, I haven't seen any mention of clerics in the material I've read. No paladins either, though that would be consistent with last time. I don't know if this means we'll have to get by with primal and psionic classes instead, but we'll see.

I've seen one Templar, and that was a warlock. They're not all warlocks, but what I've read indicates that templar is a position, not a class. Spellcasting is no longer a requirement, though being permitted to do so can be one of the job's perks.


I love Dark sun, and it'd be nice to have a supported Dark Sun again, but it has to feel like Dark Sun to me--everything doesn't have to be the same, but there is such a thing as Dark Sun in Name Only (though YMMV, which is hopefully obvious :P)

Well, sure. I know the game I ran was probably a DSINO in most eyes by the end. As far as I was concerned, any change that was going to topple kings and dragons was going to be done by the players.

I could never shake the feeling that Athasian halflings were in fact gnomes pulling off one of their most insidious practical jokes. Living in forested hills, able to play illusionists (in the original set, anyway), wild haired... still sounds pretty gnomish to me. Even the cannibalism sounds like a joke taken way too far, a sensation those who've come to dread gnomes might find familiar.

I doubt we'll see them in Dark Sun, but the halflings we will see will still feel rather gnomish to me.


Every 3rd ed depiction of them I've seen (and the 4E MM3) has shown two legs, four arms.

Were they different in 2nd ed?

Very much so. In Thri-Kreen of Athas, there was a bestial relative of the race that travelled on four legs and didn't use weapons. I think they were called the krin, but I don't have the book handy to check right now.

I know there's objection to dragonborn as dray, but this game is a reboot. Is Dregoth's New Guistenal necessary in a campaign that still features Borys' Ur Draxa? Is there even an Ur Draxa or has it been decided that the Dragon is something other than what the novels established him to be? How much of the Blue/Green Age history will be, pardon me, preserved in this version?

No matter what the source books tell me, my version will always unfold along different lines. If my players want gnomes, I'm more than willing to dress Athasian halflings up a bit differently for them. If they want wildens and shardminds, I'll think of a way. Drow? Sorry, fellas, but an elf's going to be an elf, regardless of pigmentation. Let's discuss intent and see what we can do instead.

One reason I won't mind significant changes in a world created about twenty years ago is because it means a lot of it is unknown again. I think that gives us, as well as the designers, a lot of opportunity.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-29, 10:24 PM
Couldn't be any worse than the fanon where the world used to be full of high-tech halflings that mutated into the other races.

At least halfings aren't half as bad as gnomes. :P
And life-shaping is pretty damn cool. :)


No paladins either, though that would be consistent with last time.

Yeah, Paladins aren't usually in Dark Sun, but the game that I play in/run the dray are the only race that can become paladins, and they're "anti-paladins"; Smite good, etc.

Shatteredtower
2010-06-30, 12:04 AM
Yeah, Paladins aren't usually in Dark Sun, but the game that I play in/run the dray are the only race that can become paladins, and they're "anti-paladins"; Smite good, etc.

The diversity of alignments allowed to them could make them valuable agents of the sorcerer kings, assuming they're allowed in this game. The fate of divine magic seems like this setting's best kept secret right now.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-30, 03:19 AM
Yes, dragonborn are confirmed to be Dray, not Ssurans. I haven't heard anything about PHB2 or PHB3 races, except for the half-giant of course. On the one hand, I'm not sure that Dark Sun needs shifters, deva, or indeed gnomes. On the other hand, well, they're core.


It's still being acknowledged. The mechanics we've been shown favour defilers, but in a manner that could easily get them in hot water with their teammates.
It probably won't, because this has been part of public demonstrations. Basically, preservers are how arcane casters work in the PHB. Defilers get the option to reroll an arcane attack, but this deals substantial damage to all their nearby allies.



Oddly enough, I haven't seen any mention of clerics in the material I've read. No paladins either, though that would be consistent with last time.
Yeah, I'm not sure how they're solving this one. Essentially, there shouldn't be any divine classes; but the PHB1/PHB2 contain quite a number of those.

Charity
2010-06-30, 03:54 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure how they're solving this one. Essentially, there shouldn't be any divine classes; but the PHB1/PHB2 contain quite a number of those.

I'm pretty sure they have declaired that there is no divine source characters in DS.
Druid or Shaman is the closest you can get and apparantly the primal spirits are fierce in DS (whatever that means)


...found it

The gods of Athas are silent. Athas is a world without gods. There are no clerics, no paladins, no prophets or religious orders. In the absence of divine influence, people have turned to other sources of power. Psionic power is well known and widely practiced in Athas, while shamans and druids call upon the primal powers of the world—even though the primal spirits of Athas are often wild and vengeful.

Analytica
2010-06-30, 04:24 AM
Concerning gnomes in Dark Sun 2E; wasn't there a Champion with the epithet "Gnome Death", implying they existed but were cleansed during the wars? Or am I misremembering?

Aroka
2010-06-30, 05:45 AM
Concerning gnomes in Dark Sun 2E; wasn't there a Champion with the epithet "Gnome Death", implying they existed but were cleansed during the wars? Or am I misremembering?

Gallard, Bane of Gnomes, became the Sorcerer-King Nibenay, also called the Shadow King, ruler of the city-state of Nibenay.

And yes, Gallard was one of the Champions of Rajaat who succeeded, exterminating all gnomes.

Or that's the story. There's no reason in the world to think his success was genuine; gnomes could easily have survived in far-off parts of the world, but they'd be greatly changed from what we're used to.

In the Green Age, all your typical D&D races existed on Athas, and pretty much anything would be fair game to include. Anything that survived would have to have changed radically over the millenia since, though.

Siegel
2010-06-30, 06:47 AM
Gallard, Bane of Gnomes, became the Sorcerer-King Nibenay, also called the Shadow King, ruler of the city-state of Nibenay.

And yes, Gallard was one of the Champions of Rajaat who succeeded, exterminating all gnomes.

Or that's the story. There's no reason in the world to think his success was genuine; gnomes could easily have survived in far-off parts of the world, but they'd be greatly changed from what we're used to.

In the Green Age, all your typical D&D races existed on Athas, and pretty much anything would be fair game to include. Anything that survived would have to have changed radically over the millenia since, though.

The shadow-king that killed the gnomes the masters of hiding and turning invisible ?

Is it just me or does someone else think he was a gnome himself and this all was just a plot to safe gnomes from discovery so that they can life in hiding ?

Aroka
2010-06-30, 07:00 AM
Is it just me or does someone else think he was a gnome himself and this all was just a plot to safe gnomes from discovery so that they can life in hiding ?

All the Champions of Rajaat were humans. Indeed, that was the point - Rajaat (himself not a human, but a pyreen) picked humans to teach psionics and defiling sorcery, and made them into his Champions to slaughter all the nonhumans (supposedly so humanity could rule, but actually so he'd only have one race to kill so he could turn the world over to halflings, the original intelligent species of Athas; all other races, humans included, started out as mutated halflings).

Besides, the Shadow King is only called that because he hardly ever ventures out of his palace and is therefore never seen by anyone except his templars (who are all his concubines), not because he's a stealth specialist.

hamlet
2010-06-30, 07:33 AM
The shadow-king that killed the gnomes the masters of hiding and turning invisible ?

Is it just me or does someone else think he was a gnome himself and this all was just a plot to safe gnomes from discovery so that they can life in hiding ?

No.

Not at all.

In the original 2e campaign setting, it was effectively explicit that the genocides that were labeled successful by their perpetrators were, in fact, entirely successful and that gnomes, fairies, trolls, orcs, goblins, etc. were wholly gone from the world. Which was kind of the point. Dark Sun wasn't grim and gritty because it was a desert setting. It's grim and gritty because it was turned from (successively) a beautiful blue planet of oceans and abundant life, to a verdant green world, to a nigh dead rock by the abuse of magical power in the pursuit of whole scale omnicide.

If you want a happy little desert campaign, go read up on Al Quadim. In Dark Sun, people fight and kill just to have enough ceramics to make the morning trip to the cistern and get enough water to keep themselves alive until midday.

Umael
2010-06-30, 11:42 AM
No.

Not at all.

In the original 2e campaign setting, it was effectively explicit that the genocides that were labeled successful by their perpetrators were, in fact, entirely successful and that gnomes, fairies, trolls, orcs, goblins, etc. were wholly gone from the world. Which was kind of the point. Dark Sun wasn't grim and gritty because it was a desert setting. It's grim and gritty because it was turned from (successively) a beautiful blue planet of oceans and abundant life, to a verdant green world, to a nigh dead rock by the abuse of magical power in the pursuit of whole scale omnicide.

Just a thought.

If they DO include a bunch of races that should be dead, it could be that the "canon" history will be repeated, either by intent of WotC or by responding to the customer base's request.

You might end up getting to play in a published 4e adventure where your PCs witness the genocide of one of these races.

Analytica
2010-06-30, 11:52 AM
Just a thought.

If they DO include a bunch of races that should be dead, it could be that the "canon" history will be repeated, either by intent of WotC or by responding to the customer base's request.

You might end up getting to play in a published 4e adventure where your PCs witness the genocide of one of these races.

This would deviate very much from the setting as previously written. Rajaat instilled the specific desire for the extermination of one species into each Champion. It is implied that they can sense their chosen prey as well. Furthermore, that happened two millenia years ago. Following that, the Champions rebelled against Rajaat, and do not serve him anymore.

Incidentally, in my Dark Sun 3E campaign, I made it so that Rajaat chose humans for champions because they were the only race that could be relied upon to subsequently exterminate themselves. Following that revelation, they rebelled. The late-era PCs, then, were adventurers that became possessed by the souls those Champions that didn't make it to the present (Sielba, Sasha, Wyan, and Myron), then gradually came to remember the ancient age at around the same time as the slave uprising in Tyr. (We really should finish up that campaign though.)

Kaiser Omnik
2010-06-30, 11:53 AM
Would you really like to describe a genocide to your players as part of a 4e adventure? :smalleek:

Aroka
2010-06-30, 12:04 PM
Would you really like to describe a genocide to your players as part of a 4e adventure? :smalleek:

Why not? I didn't notice anything in my 4E books saying adventures using a villain's atrocities as a background aren't supported.

Edit: It wouldn't really be Dark Sun, though. If we're in the Green Age, the world isn't a desert, and its major theme would be epic genocidal war rather than grim desert wasteland survival. If we're in the Age of Sorcerer-Kings, there's no Rajaat to drive the genocidal wars, and the Sorcerer-Kings stopped as soon as they were free of Rajaat because there was no point. Indeed, several of them have hundreds or thousands of their chosen enemy race living in their city states.


Incidentally, in my Dark Sun 3E campaign, I made it so that Rajaat chose humans for champions because they were the only race that could be relied upon to subsequently exterminate themselves. Following that revelation, they rebelled. The late-era PCs, then, were adventurers that became possessed by the souls those Champions that didn't make it to the present (Sielba, Sasha, Wyan, and Myron), then gradually came to remember the ancient age at around the same time as the slave uprising in Tyr. (We really should finish up that campaign though.)

Actually, in the Prism Pentad, Sacha and Wyan are both "alive" as severed, magically preserved heads held for Borys by Kalak. They become Tithian's mentors.

But, you know, Troy Denning. The Prism Pentad is completely horrible in every way. (Nibenay's son - Djokhat or whatever - just screams "13-year-old DM!")

Reversing the Prism Pentad is definitely a good step. Including the PHB races doesn't seem like any sort of problem. If you can bring psurlons into Athas, you can have tieflings, too.

Moff Chumley
2010-06-30, 12:35 PM
A note on "4e is too cushy for a dangerous wasteland atmosphere". If you're relying on 4e rules to create that atmosphere, sure. But rules are, what, 20% of DMing?

The point is, no matter WHAT they do to DS, how hard is it going to be, really, to tweak it a little bit?

Kurald Galain
2010-06-30, 12:40 PM
The point is, no matter WHAT they do to DS, how hard is it going to be, really, to tweak it a little bit?

It's not that hard. You'd have to get rid of the "heal everything in six hours of rest" rule, avoid the cheap "cure everything instantly" ritual, greatly reduce the time you can go without food or drink before getting checks or penalties for it, and finally ban the low-level magical items that give you infinite food and water. Oh yeah, and not give the PCs enough coinage to buy the entire town with.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-30, 12:54 PM
I'm pretty sure they have declaired that there is no divine source characters in DS.
Druid or Shaman is the closest you can get and apparantly the primal spirits are fierce in DS (whatever that means)


...found it

What? That's complete bull! Elemental Clerics were a staple part of the Dark Sun diet!

Aroka
2010-06-30, 01:04 PM
What? That's complete bull! Elemental Clerics were a staple part of the Dark Sun diet!

Druids and shamans seem much more appropriate (what with all the spirits of elements), and the clerics never got their powers from a divine source; both templars and clerics used elemental power. Creating four different elemental cleric classes (since they'd all need a pile of their own powers based on their element) to replace one seems like a lot of unnecessary work.

Anyway, the druids were always much more interesting, what with the clear role in the world.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-30, 01:15 PM
Druids and shamans seem much more appropriate (what with all the spirits of elements), and the clerics never got their powers from a divine source; both templars and clerics used elemental power. Creating four different elemental cleric classes (since they'd all need a pile of their own powers based on their element) to replace one seems like a lot of unnecessary work.

Anyway, the druids were always much more interesting, what with the clear role in the world.

Indeed, but they did make all the abilities and spells before, so why can't they now? It doesn't have to be the same, but removing elemental clerics can really f up Dark Sun a lot. (Especially my game, which is all elemental based. Dx)

Terraoblivion
2010-06-30, 01:24 PM
Who is this "they" you are talking about? Writers employed by TSR made those things well over a decade ago, that is hardly the same people as a different set of writers working for a different company with a very different system in a completely different time.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-30, 01:27 PM
Who is this "they" you are talking about? Writers employed by TSR made those things well over a decade ago, that is hardly the same people as a different set of writers working for a different company with a very different system in a completely different time.

Yeah, them and the Athas.org staff for 3.0/3.5.
It's just like removing one of the more important classes. Seriously, they were one of the three classes to become greater beings at epic levels, and they're being too lazy to include them in 4e. Dx

Terraoblivion
2010-06-30, 01:43 PM
You are talking about three different groups of people as if they were one. You say that "they" could do it before so why don't "they" do it now. Some people could do it before and some other people aren't doing it now. You can argue that it is vital to have this part of the setting, i honestly don't know the setting well enough to have an opinion one way or another. But you can't argue that the developers have suddenly become lazy for not doing it, because they have done it before, since they haven't. That was some other people.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-30, 01:47 PM
You are talking about three different groups of people as if they were one. You say that "they" could do it before so why don't "they" do it now. Some people could do it before and some other people aren't doing it now. You can argue that it is vital to have this part of the setting, i honestly don't know the setting well enough to have an opinion one way or another. But you can't argue that the developers have suddenly become lazy for not doing it, because they have done it before, since they haven't. That was some other people.

Ok, well WotC is being foolish and lazy to not include the elemental priests in Dark Sun 4e. They were one of the most important classes in the game.
They even became an elemental of their patron element at epic levels, being one of the 3 "advanced being" classes.
It's things like that that would make old school fans mad. Things like clearly ignoring the history in the setting and removing key components.
Indeed, the game has to evolve, but it can evolve without removing one of its key components, leaving this big gap where the elements used to be important.

Analytica
2010-06-30, 02:39 PM
Actually, in the Prism Pentad, Sacha and Wyan are both "alive" as severed, magically preserved heads held for Borys by Kalak. They become Tithian's mentors.

Well, yes, but those two flying heads felt really like so much comic relief. :smallsmile: In my version, the heads had been found long ago and put into Sielba's museum before she herself was destroyed, same with Myron's.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Dark Sun in 4E though. Since campaigns are supposed to go to epic levels, is it to be expected that each Sorcerer-Monarch will be the "end boss" for an epic-tier game? I also anticipate avangion and dragon epic destinies...

Hzurr
2010-06-30, 03:22 PM
Ok, well WotC is being foolish and lazy to not include the elemental priests in Dark Sun 4e. They were one of the most important classes in the game.
They even became an elemental of their patron element at epic levels, being one of the 3 "advanced being" classes.
It's things like that that would make old school fans mad. Things like clearly ignoring the history in the setting and removing key components.
Indeed, the game has to evolve, but it can evolve without removing one of its key components, leaving this big gap where the elements used to be important.

Actually, I believe that elemental priests are going to exist, they simply aren't going to be part of the cleric class, since Clerics as written are so closely tied to the divine power source, and the divine power source doesn't exist in 4E. I think that instead of clerics, there's an alternate build for Warlocks or something like that to fill the role of "elemental cleric," but I don't remember offhand. I do know that WotC addressed it.


While I've never played Dark Sun, everything I've read from WotC (including Rich Baker, who was there for the origional) seems like they're trying to be as faithful as possible. They seem to be just as big fans of the origional as anyone else is, and want to stay true to the spirit. I feel like the most people who are upset about 4E Dark Sun are people who haven't actually taken the time to read the blogs and information, and are just making accusations based on assumptions. Either try and find information, or wait til they release the final product before deciding that WotC has "ruined it"

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-30, 03:52 PM
Ahhh, the joys of switching editions. I still love 2nd edition, and find the newer editions just a little cumbersome. I enjoy playing 3rd and 4th edition, but they will never be 2nd edition.

Moff Chumley
2010-06-30, 04:40 PM
But... but... if we can't blame WotC for everything, then we have to come to terms with the fact that they're not idiots who do everything wrong! And that would shatter our close minded little world-view! And that would be bad!

Right?

Hzurr
2010-06-30, 04:46 PM
But... but... if we can't blame WotC for everything, then we have to come to terms with the fact that they're not idiots who do everything wrong! And that would shatter our close minded little world-view! And that would be bad!

Right?

Well, if the boards have taught me anything, is that if you don't like something about d&d, you either blame WotC, or WoW. In a pinch, you can complain about Tolkien, but you risk your own life when you do so.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-30, 06:07 PM
Elemental Clerics were a staple part of the Dark Sun diet!

A viable answer would be to play a sorcerer...

Lhurgyof
2010-06-30, 08:48 PM
A viable answer would be to play a sorcerer...

Sorcerers and Clerics are the opposite.
Clerics like the world, sorcerers destroy it with spell casting... O.o
But yeah, Dark Sun 4e, with a warlock priest would be kinda fine. But the D&D encounters team really needs to learn a lesson.

Like today, we fought a lizardfolk. A god damned lizardfolk.
In the middle of the desert. A race reduced to one small clan that lives in secrecy in a far-off part of the world and we fought one. God damned D&D encounters.

Matthew
2010-07-01, 07:16 AM
I have to admit, I was surprised we met goblins, I was definitely expecting feral halflings.

Shatteredtower
2010-07-01, 07:46 AM
Like today, we fought a lizardfolk. A god damned lizardfolk. In the middle of the desert. A race reduced to one small clan that lives in secrecy in a far-off part of the world and we fought one. God damned D&D encounters.

My DM avoided naming them, which is all we needed. I was much more concerned with the "sacred tree" and the "air bowlers" that have assured that I won't survive our next fight. If we get anbushed again, my 1 hp and 0 surges won't even give me time to attack before it's over. Still, are desert lizard people any less believable than desert sylvan people (elves)?

While near death has been enjoyable, let's not forget that this was also a world of rich cultures full of opportunity for the right people. It wasn't all minimal subsistence living, not when you lead slave tribes or smuggled wares for (or past) merchant houses.

DrummingDM
2010-07-01, 08:14 AM
Indeed, but they did make all the abilities and spells before, so why can't they now? It doesn't have to be the same, but removing elemental clerics can really f up Dark Sun a lot. (Especially my game, which is all elemental based. Dx)

Simply re-fluff Shamans as Elemental Clerics, and viola, problem solved. I've heard nothing, and I mean absolutely *nothing* about 4e Darksun that can't be solved with a few minutes of "reskinning". Don't like Tieflings as the descendants of a human civilization that dabbled in devilry? Then make them into nomadic tribal mutants of the wastes (which is what I suspect WoTC did for 4e Dark Sun anyway). Don't like Dragonborn as Dray? Then refluff them FURTHER for your game.

If you stop expecting Wizards to regurgitate 2e Dark Sun to you, and take what they're giving you as a 4e Dark Sun toolbox you have the license to tear apart and reconstruct as you see fit, you'll live a much more stress-free existence.

hamlet
2010-07-01, 10:10 AM
Still, are desert lizard people any less believable than desert sylvan people (elves)?


The elves of Athas aren't sylvan by any rational measure. They were desert runners.

And, as I recall, all lizard people were anihilated milenia ago. Don't know how they would suddenly reappear, though if we're adding back gnomes and goblins now, might as well.:smallyuk:

hamlet
2010-07-01, 10:12 AM
If you stop expecting Wizards to regurgitate 2e Dark Sun to you, and take what they're giving you as a 4e Dark Sun toolbox you have the license to tear apart and reconstruct as you see fit, you'll live a much more stress-free existence.

Or, you know, you could just use the existing boxed set from TSR and ignore the new entirely.

Aroka
2010-07-01, 10:27 AM
Or, you know, you could just use the existing boxed set from TSR and ignore the new entirely.

A better solution (http://www.athas.org/).

Also, there are a ton of reptilian humanoid races in the Tyr region. The Ssurrans and Pterrans are the most obvious ones. How should a Ssurran's combat stats differ from a Lizardfolk's, generally? (Well, fire resistance or immunity, I guess, but that seems very minor.)

Lhurgyof
2010-07-01, 10:44 AM
A better solution (http://www.athas.org/).

Also, there are a ton of reptilian humanoid races in the Tyr region. The Ssurrans and Pterrans are the most obvious ones. How should a Ssurran's combat stats differ from a Lizardfolk's, generally? (Well, fire resistance or immunity, I guess, but that seems very minor.)

That encounter was brutal. I was playing Bacaran and got killed before any PC could even take a turn.

Ah, I love Athas.org. I have already decided that I won't play 4e Dark Sun by any measure beyond encounters, but I'm just disturbed at how much they're changing. I can see just converting it to the new rules, but screwing with the game world so that tiefling lovers don't feel left out just doesn't feel ok.

Edit: And the reason it bugs me is that, at least the encounters staff, is either much too lazy to even change the name from "Goblin" to "Gith" or "Lizardfold" to "Pterran" or to become at all familiar with the material. It's something that would take literally no time, but they just say "meh, nobody cares if we throw a goblin and Lizardman in there". But unfortunately I had been playing encounters beforehand and will have to just bide my time until they get enough negative feedback to change it. Or maybe they won't. Either way, hopefully the Dark Sun season of Encounters will end soon, because they're giving Dark Sun a bad name.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-01, 10:49 AM
It strikes me that the group of "oldschool Dark Sun fans" is much, much smaller than the group of 4E players.

So if they want a Dark Sun 4E, then obviously WOTC is going to cater to the latter group rather than the former. And yes, that probably means including spirit Shamans, Deva, and cheap resurrection magic into the game even though it wasn't there earlier, because any element changed or omitted from "classic 4E" is going to upset far more players than any element changed or omitted from "classic DS".

hamlet
2010-07-01, 11:01 AM
It strikes me that the group of "oldschool Dark Sun fans" is much, much smaller than the group of 4E players.

So if they want a Dark Sun 4E, then obviously WOTC is going to cater to the latter group rather than the former. And yes, that probably means including spirit Shamans, Deva, and cheap resurrection magic into the game even though it wasn't there earlier, because any element changed or omitted from "classic 4E" is going to upset far more players than any element changed or omitted from "classic DS".

You're absolutely correct in that.

However, I feel that it's important to point out that, back in the 2e days, a lot of what was in "classic AD&D" was specifically removed from Dark Sun and people never (to my knowledge) griped about it not being there. In fact, it was viewed as a feature at the time. Dark Sun did one thing very very well: it took the AD&D 2e rules and just ran with them. Stretched them to the max and used them to do what every DM really hopes to do: create something unique and memorable. It proved, in my mind, that AD&D 2e was not so much a rule set as a tool set.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-01, 11:14 AM
You're absolutely correct in that.

However, I feel that it's important to point out that, back in the 2e days, a lot of what was in "classic AD&D" was specifically removed from Dark Sun and people never (to my knowledge) griped about it not being there. In fact, it was viewed as a feature at the time. Dark Sun did one thing very very well: it took the AD&D 2e rules and just ran with them. Stretched them to the max and used them to do what every DM really hopes to do: create something unique and memorable. It proved, in my mind, that AD&D 2e was not so much a rule set as a tool set.

Precisely. But.. what's the point of making everything play the same on a commercial standpoint?

One could think that it makes players more conmfortable with the new books (I mean, you buy the Dark Sun setting, it plays like core, no problems to explain it to newcomers and so on).

But.. on the long road.. couldnìt Wotc run in the risk of creating products not appealing to those that want a lot of crunch to describe a setting and make it very special? :smallconfused:

hamlet
2010-07-01, 11:20 AM
Precisely. But.. what's the point of making everything play the same on a commercial standpoint?

One could think that it makes players more conmfortable with the new books (I mean, you buy the Dark Sun setting, it plays like core, no problems to explain it to newcomers and so on).

But.. on the long road.. couldnìt Wotc run in the risk of creating products not appealing to those that want a lot of crunch to describe a setting and make it very special? :smallconfused:

The issue is, actually, that WOTC as far as I recall made the statement that everything that was in the core 4e books will, by default, be 100% available in all future products of D&D. Thus, Tieflings and Dragonborn in Dark Sun.

They know their audience and target market well enough to know that if they were to state that Tieflings and Dragonborn (for example) just didn't exist in Dark Sun and you couldn't use them would rebel and it would hurt sales. They know the rest of the market well enough that the others will either a) buy it and change what they want to make it their own (i.e., houserule away the things they dont' like) or b) just not buy it in the first place in which case WOTC really doesn't care at all about them.

It's a new paradigm that was birthed out of 3.x and reached apotheosis in 4e.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-01, 11:27 AM
The issue is, actually, that WOTC as far as I recall made the statement that everything that was in the core 4e books will, by default, be 100% available in all future products of D&D. Thus, Tieflings and Dragonborn in Dark Sun.

They know their audience and target market well enough to know that if they were to state that Tieflings and Dragonborn (for example) just didn't exist in Dark Sun and you couldn't use them would rebel and it would hurt sales. They know the rest of the market well enough that the others will either a) buy it and change what they want to make it their own (i.e., houserule away the things they dont' like) or b) just not buy it in the first place in which case WOTC really doesn't care at all about them.

It's a new paradigm that was birthed out of 3.x and reached apotheosis in 4e.

Well, I guess that a race more or less, if adapted to make sense, is not the biggest proble ever (even if this is debatable.. no dragons barring dragon kings in old DS* ---> dragonborn in 4th. WUT?).

My concern is about the feel of the setting and the mechanics linked with it - but I see your point.


* I could be wrong here - time passed :smallwink:

hamlet
2010-07-01, 12:03 PM
Well, I guess that a race more or less, if adapted to make sense, is not the biggest proble ever (even if this is debatable.. no dragons barring dragon kings in old DS* ---> dragonborn in 4th. WUT?).

My concern is about the feel of the setting and the mechanics linked with it - but I see your point.


* I could be wrong here - time passed :smallwink:

I have a feeling that most people who are strong 4e fans wouldn't like the feel of Dark Sun as it was originally published (regardless of the rules) anyway, so of course things are going to change.

As for the Dragonborn, it's my understanding that they're using that race as a stand in for the Dray, a race of draconic (sorta kinda) humanoids created by Dregoth, and undead dragon almost as powerful as the Dragon of Tyr who rules a blasted and wasted land south of the Tablelands, as servitors molded in his own image. He was the 2nd to gain power rivaling Boris and for that he was slain, but even death has not stopped him. Now, though, he's rather cheesed off as his advancement toward full dragon status has been halted.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-01, 12:10 PM
As for the Dragonborn, it's my understanding that they're using that race as a stand in for the Dray, a race of draconic (sorta kinda) humanoids created by Dregoth, and undead dragon almost as powerful as the Dragon of Tyr who rules a blasted and wasted land south of the Tablelands, as servitors molded in his own image.

Well, I like this one. Good adaptation I'd say.

Lord Vampyre
2010-07-01, 12:29 PM
I guess I'll have to wait for the actual 4e book to come out. Everything I've read so far is that their just reskinning the existing races and classes to fit the setting.

Honestly, I can do that myself, and don't need a supplement to get the setting I want down. I'll wait until the release to pass judgement though.

I am hoping for something new to make the setting worth while though. I just hope they do a better job than they did with Forgotten Realms.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-01, 08:59 PM
... I just hope they do a better job than they did with Forgotten Realms.

Sadly, you're hoping for a lot. :P