PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] High AC



Choco
2010-06-25, 08:35 AM
We all know that AC is practically useless at mid/high levels unless you got at least 20 more AC than ECL. So my question is, what are the various ways a martial character can get an uber high AC? My aim is to get it as high as possible without using any caster buffs, so no need to mention those.

p.s. before anyone says so, I know offense > defense and that maxing out AC in general is sub optimal, but I play in a VERY sub optimal group. At levels 9-10, the best character (other than mine) is a full FIGHTER with a 1 level barbarian dip for rage (this in a party with a cleric and a wizard). I have gone through characters like someone with a cold goes through tissues because no matter what I make I always overshadow the party (yes, they are really that unoptimized). So hey, next on the list is a Greatsword using fighter that focuses on defense, and takes weapon focus/specialization and all that. And I bet I will still dominate :smalleek:

PersonMan
2010-06-25, 08:37 AM
Well, if you can take the LA, find a race with a ton of Natural Armor. It stacks with Armor bonuses, and a large enough bonus can be great. If you're TWFing or THFing, then get an Animated shield. It costs +2, but you can still stick some more enhancements on it, or just enjoy the +2 to AC.

Choco
2010-06-25, 08:40 AM
Well, if you can take the LA, find a race with a ton of Natural Armor. It stacks with Armor bonuses, and a large enough bonus can be great. If you're TWFing or THFing, then get an Animated shield. It costs +2, but you can still stick some more enhancements on it, or just enjoy the +2 to AC.

Well, so far I was thinking:

Feral template (+1 LA, +6 natural armor)
+5 Full Plate armor (Mithral if you have a dex mod higher than 1)
+5 Animated shield
couple level dip into Totemist for Wormtail Belt (+2 natural armor, +1 for each essentia invested)
Various grafts and feats that increase natural armor

missing anything?

true_shinken
2010-06-25, 08:43 AM
An azurin with Cobalt Expertise and a Vest of Defense can get pretty high AC. Add Deadly Defense for a little damage bonus and you are set. Dual-wield broadblade shortswords or use a quarterstaff (there is a feat that increases AC while using Combat Expertise with a staff, forgot the name).

Telonius
2010-06-25, 08:43 AM
My first thought is a Small Monk/Duelist. Carmendine Monk, Two-Weapon Defense, Combat Expertise, wielding 1 Defending dagger and 1 regular dagger, plus a ring of protection.

Small gives you +1 AC. Int will count to AC twice - once for Carmendine Monk, once for Duelist's Canny Defense (max bonus = Duelist level). You'll have the standard Monk AC bonus. Combat Expertise gives you a +5 Dodge bonus. Two-weapon defense gives you a +1 shield bonus. Defending Dagger will let you transfer its bonus to your AC as an untyped bonus, and still not hurt your attacks (since you'll be using kicks instead). Add on a Ring of Protection for deflection bonus.

I'm sure there are other items you could stack on top of that for further ridiculousness.

Person_Man
2010-06-25, 09:44 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Totemist X/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2 yet. Fist of the Forest give you your Con to AC when unarmored. Deepwarden gives you your Con to AC (replacing Dex) a second time. Totemist can boost his natural armor bonus with Wormtail Belt by 2 + essentia invested. Add magic bracers on top of that, and it's easy to get into the 30+ range by ECL 8ish.

Tytalus
2010-06-25, 09:48 AM
Well, so far I was thinking:

Feral template (+1 LA, +6 natural armor)

[...]

missing anything?

Yes. Feral is far too OP for a low-optimization group as you described.

Choco
2010-06-25, 09:51 AM
Yes. Feral is far too OP for a low-optimization group as you described.

Yeah, good point. Though if I use a weapon and stay still most of the time I would not be using most of it's perks. Darkvision doesnt make that big a difference cause we got light sources, and fast healing will help with "tanking". But then again, the last few characters I made I thought "you know, <x> isn't overpowered if I just play it this way..." and here I am making another character :smallsigh:

Incorrect
2010-06-25, 09:53 AM
5 ranks in Tumble grants you +3 dodge bonus to AC while fighting defensively.
Its the little things...:smallwink:

Furnok
2010-06-25, 10:01 AM
Switch to a Falchion because the crit range is better and take combat expertise. With improved crit you crit on (15-20) so you will crit 30% of the time use power attack and combat expertise. When you hit it’s for a lot and you have a really high AC.

Sc00by
2010-06-25, 10:23 AM
1/2 dragon template for +5 natural armour and a +3 LA that should put you behnd everyone else just enough. Plus with the STR bonus you can power attack (or use Combat Expertise) all the more...

Lhurgyof
2010-06-25, 10:24 AM
Chain Shirt/ Dastana/ Cahar-iana.
Each can be magically enhanced so you'll get more bang for your buck.

Wonton
2010-06-25, 11:39 AM
If you're going for un-optimization, switch from a Greatsword to Longsword + Tower Shield. It'll give you AC, AND make your damage output suck. :smallbiggrin:

Choco
2010-06-25, 11:44 AM
If you're going for un-optimization, switch from a Greatsword to Longsword + Tower Shield. It'll give you AC, AND make your damage output suck. :smallbiggrin:

nice one! :smallwink:

If I truly wanted 100% unoptimization, I would have one of the other group members make my character for me. I want something minimally functional though :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 11:51 AM
Mineral Warrior template from Underdark is LA+1 and says "Natural armour improves by +3"

it also grants very nice Damage Reduction.

Taking everything that makes you hard to hit, and everything that keeps your hitting power low, might make for a character who doesn't overshadow anybody in damage- but who just won't be killed easily.

Choco
2010-06-25, 11:56 AM
Taking everything that makes you hard to hit, and everything that keeps your hitting power low, might make for a character who doesn't overshadow anybody in damage- but who just won't be killed easily.

That's basically what I am trying to do. Though I think an AC of 25 at lvl 10 would be enough now that I think about it. The highest AC in the group total is about 20.

Wonton
2010-06-25, 11:58 AM
nice one! :smallwink:

If I truly wanted 100% unoptimization, I would have one of the other group members make my character for me. I want something minimally functional though :smalltongue:

But this way, you could also make your Longsword into a +5 Defending Longsword (I think using GMW would count as being overpowered in your group), and get bonuses off of that. :smallwink:

Just of curiousity, what class are you thinking? I'd probably go for Knight in your case, "survivability" is their main class feature.

Choco
2010-06-25, 12:02 PM
Just of curiousity, what class are you thinking? I'd probably go for Knight in your case, "survivability" is their main class feature.

Was gonna do at least 2 levels in fighter, avoid barbarian and ToB cause they are too good for this group, some CW Samurai, some Monk maybe. That should cripple me sufficiently. Then the rest can be knight :smalltongue:

Wonton
2010-06-25, 12:09 PM
Was gonna do at least 2 levels in fighter, avoid barbarian and ToB cause they are too good for this group, some CW Samurai, some Monk maybe. That should cripple me sufficiently. Then the rest can be knight :smalltongue:

Make sure to take Fighter 3. It's a gem of a level. :smallwink:

Volthawk
2010-06-25, 12:09 PM
Kobolds. Straight away, that's a +2 AC from race alone (+1 size, +1 natural).

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 12:09 PM
Tome of Battle specializing in helping others, might make the party happy. Instead of you doing lots of damage, you take those White Raven maneuvers that help them do lots of damage.

Marshal or Dragon Shaman might do, if ToB is just too good.

Doug Lampert
2010-06-25, 12:24 PM
Well, so far I was thinking:

Feral template (+1 LA, +6 natural armor)
+5 Full Plate armor (Mithral if you have a dex mod higher than 1)
+5 Animated shield
couple level dip into Totemist for Wormtail Belt (+2 natural armor, +1 for each essentia invested)
Various grafts and feats that increase natural armor

missing anything?

Eh? The KEY to getting a high AC is to get as many DIFFERENT bonuses as possible.

+5 animated shield costs 13,000 GP more than a +4 animated shield for only 1 more point of AC.

Or you could use that 13,000 GP and get a +2 ring of deflection (8,000 GP, and it aplies to touch), +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000 GP), +2 to dex item (4,000 GP for +1 to AC and lots of other stuff) and 1,000 GP left over. (Which will pay the extra cost for having the natural armor in an inappropriate slot or whatever.)

Which would you rather have +7 to AC or +10 to AC of which 3 applies to touch and 1 applies to reflex defense and all Dex skills and checks?

There are something like 13 different ways to add to AC if you include obscure ones like Sacred and Profane (no rule says they don't stack) and Luck (costs so much it's rarely worth it). Stack them all prior to buying the shield up to +5 animated.

To maximize AC you definitely want Armor, enhancement to armor, shield, enhancement to shield, natural armor, enhancement to natural armor, Dexterity, enhancement to dexterity, and deflection.

Note for the OP: You probably want to start Kobold, it's not high optimization unless you use lots of cheeze, but a Kobold gets +1 for size, +1 for natural armor, and +1 for Dex. Then add your templates.

At level 13, core only, not trying too hard.

Gnome Paladin (small +1)
13 Dex (+1)
Plate (+8) [1,650 GP]
Large Shield (+2) [~160 GP]

Shield is animated and +1 (9,000 GP)
Ring of Deflection +1 (2,000 GP)
Plate is +2 (4,000 GP)
Item of Dex +2 (4,000 GP)

You've spent less than 21,000 GP and an ability of 13. You have AC of 27 and haven't wasted the neck slot you want for your Con booster. You can ride your mount anywhere a medium creature can go (it's not an animal so it's not panicked by the dark or anything).

Obviously you can do better, but you said 25 was enough.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 12:26 PM
Kobolds. Straight away, that's a +2 AC from race alone (+1 size, +1 natural).

Hard to melee, but the AC is damn good. Pop a Alter self for +7NA and +2size.

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 12:28 PM
haven't wasted the neck slot you want for your Con booster.

MIC fixed this. Now, certain basic abilities such as stats and NA/deflection/resistance can be stacked on items in "affinity" slots without the 1.5x premium suggested in the DMG. Basically, these abilities are things that everyone more or less needs, and a class shouldn't be penalized certain body slots to get the abilities that WBL dictates they need to overcome CR appropriate encounters.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 12:33 PM
Eg. Belt of battle +6Str costs just as much as a belt of battle, and a belt of str+6.

gallagher
2010-06-25, 12:34 PM
one thing better than regular AC is miss chance. i would rather invest in a ring of blink than +5 fullplate.

heck, you can have it be +4 fullplate and still afford that ring of blinking. it means you cant be sneak attacked (no need for fortified armor) and IIRC cant be targeted by spells (AoE spells still count unfortunately, but you get +2 to your reflex save for them)

50% miss chance is the same as full cover, which gives you sooo many delicious advantages.

nedz
2010-06-25, 12:41 PM
You seem to be missing teh rather basic Items Ring Prot and Amulet Natural Armour ?
If you have a feat to burn consider Shield Specialisation (for +1). Actually there are several other feats which can bump AC, all nicely low OP.

The really High AC characters tend to have light armour with dex.
There are lots of class options for adding additional stats to AC and since we are being Low OP:
Dip a level of Monk for Wis to AC and further +1 Bonus with Monks Belt
Most further options are quite high OP mind.

Draz74
2010-06-25, 12:57 PM
Factotums struggle through the middle levels, but getting a good AC is pretty easy at high levels for them.

All the usual sources of AC (for a light-armor-wearing type character, and including the option of a shield), plus INT to AC on an INT-focused class. Nice.

A lot of the "trick" to high AC is just being willing to spend enough of your money on those expensive Natural Armor and Deflection bonuses to AC. :smallyuk:

EDIT: And the basics: never forget, of course, a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone. It's cheaper than any other AC boost once you have +3 armor/shield and +1 Natural Armor/Deflection bonuses. Though a Parrying weapon is a better way to get the same bonus, if you can use the XPH version of Parrying rather than the MIC version.

Otodetu
2010-06-25, 01:10 PM
If the group is really low-powered, make a rogue or something, a very basic, rapier wielding rogue that have focused on social interaction, that way you can talk with people and be big in the social game, maybe the other players will feel more comfortable with that?
Whip out some use magic device if **** hits the fan.

And feral template it not op, it is cheese, any person with a good grasp of numbers will understand that, it is also 3.0.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 01:13 PM
If the group is really low-powered, make a rogue or something, a very basic, rapier wielding rogue that have focused on social interaction, that way you can talk with people and be big in the social game, maybe the other players will feel more comfortable with that?
Whip out some use magic device if **** hits the fan.

And feral template it not op, it is cheese, any person with a good grasp of numbers will understand that, it is also 3.0.

It is also legal, since it's not overwritten by an update.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-25, 01:16 PM
And feral template it not op, it is cheese, any person with a good grasp of numbers will understand that, it is also 3.0.
Care to offer an objective definition of the two? I fail to see what distinction you're making here.

sonofzeal
2010-06-25, 01:41 PM
Tashalatora PsiWar can get pretty impressive AC, actually. Fully-augmented Inertial Armor general gives a better armor bonus to AC than most other comparable sources. And Tashalatora stacks for the static AC bonus, so that's a few extra points basically for free. Get good gear on top of that, and you can be pretty impressive as a tank even before using shorter-duration powers like Metamorphosis or Force Shield.

CubeB
2010-06-25, 02:16 PM
If you're willing to take the LA, Half Dragon Kobolds get +6 AC just from existing.
+1 Size, +1 Racial, +4 Template.

Not to mention the fact that Kobolds have naturally high Dexterity, and a Half-Dragon Kobold is considered a Dragon rather than a humanoid, so a lot of spells that affect only Humanoids won't even bother you.

However, unless you can convince your DM to get you racial hit die, you'll have lower HP than the rest of the party.

Proven_Paradox
2010-06-25, 02:21 PM
Incarnum has already been mentioned, and the best AC comes from mixing that with some psionics. The excellent Wormtail Belt has already been mentioned, but there's also the Crystal Helm (+1 Deflection/essentia). If you want to really focus on AC, go with Good Incarnate. Your Incarnum Radiance improves AC, your Incarnum Avatar gives you an insight bonus to AC, and you've got Crystal Helm out of the box. Pick up Wormtail Belt through the Shape Soulmeld feat.

Add to that some way to pick up psionic focus. You can get this by either being a race with bonus power points, a one level dip into Psychic Warrior (which also gives you a couple of utility powers and heavy armor proficiency), or the Wild Talent feat. If LA buyout is in effect, Dromite would be great for you, as it gets you the psoinics, small size, and +3 natural armor. Even without LA buyout, it's not bad. Get heavy armor somehow (dip levels or a proficiency feat) and take Heavy Armor Optimization and Deflective armor. Also take Shield Specialization (Heavy Shield) and Shield Ward. With whatever feats remain, take either Improved Heavy Armor Optimization or Focused Shield. Get your psionic focus in the morning and never lose it.

Now, your armor applies to touch AC and is 2 higher than normal, your shield applies to touch AC and opposed checks and is 2 higher than normal, you have 5+essential natural armor from Wormtail Belt, essentia deflection from Crystal Helm, essentia insight from Incarnum Avatar, and whatever your Incarnum Radiance is doing for you at the time. Take something that gives you a touch attack for offense (Dissolving Spittle is my personal favorite) and go to town.

Choco
2010-06-25, 02:21 PM
Great suggestions so far guys, ima slap something together here in the next few days based on this input.


However, unless you can convince your DM to get you racial hit die, you'll have lower HP than the rest of the party.

That is not a problem in this party, trust me.

Stephen_E
2010-06-25, 02:35 PM
I don't have all the details but a while back I worke out a build that at around 12th ecl had AC 45-55 depending on what u were doing.
Crap damage output, great saves, spell resistance, reduced enemies saves and limited there movement.

Basically you couldn't kill squat, but you can't be killed and you boost your friends spells ect.
Also has both Mettle and Evasion, so if you save for part effect you take no effect.

Race Nixie
IIRC Monk 2, Hexblade 3 (using PHB2 Dark Companion) Blackguard. 2 Psychic Warrior for feats.
Use the Comp War Divine Shield to add Charisma to AC.
Use Sword and Shield. Mithral Chainshirt
Best stat Charisma, followed by Dex. 13 str for Power Attack.

Can't look up all the details currently but that should give you the general gist.

Stephen E

Wings of Peace
2010-06-25, 02:38 PM
On the spellcasting side of things these classes would benefit arcane casters looking for high ac (values are based on their maximums):

Wizard 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spelldancer (For persists) 1/Legacy Champion 5 (Abj. Champ)/ Wyrm Wizard 2

+10 (Base Armor [Base Armor])

+18 Natural Armor (Alter Self: Dwarf Ancestor [Spell])

+21 Armor Bonus (+8 Greater Luminous Armor [Spell] +10 [Abj./Leg. Champ] + 3 [Guardinal Feather Power Component])

+18 Deflection (+ 5 Shield of Faith via Wyrm Wizard [Prestige Class] + 10 [Abj./Leg. Champ] + 3 [Power Component Guardinal Feather])

+17 Shield Bonus (+4 Shield [Spell] + 10 [Abj./Leg. Champ] +3 [Power Component Guardinal Feather])

+1 Dodge Bonus (Haste [Spell])

+Int Modifier (Kung Fu Genius [Feat] + Monk Belt [Item])

Current AC Total: 85 + Int Modifier

sofawall
2010-06-25, 03:11 PM
+9 Shield Bonus (Mage Armor)

You mean Shield?

Jorda75
2010-06-25, 03:32 PM
Don't forget, just being Small makes you harder to hit. A Halfling gets +1 AC, it all adds up :smallbiggrin:

Volthawk
2010-06-25, 03:46 PM
Don't forget, just being Small makes you harder to hit. A Halfling gets +1 AC, it all adds up :smallbiggrin:

Already been said, and Kobold is better for that.

Hendel
2010-06-25, 03:57 PM
Already been said, and Kobold is better for that.

Deep gnome gets a +4 dodge bonus to AC, but it is by no means enough to make up for the +3 LA on the silly, little race. If you could buy off the LA, then it might make since with some of the other racial features you pick up as well.

Jolee
2010-06-25, 04:22 PM
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (LA +1) from MM3 have +3 natural armor, +1 from small size and its ability adjustments are +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha. There's also a couple other abilities like free poison use and decent skill bonuses.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-25, 05:01 PM
Did one that was similar a while back
Dancing towershield and a two handed weapon.
Defending weapon
Defending armor spikes
Defending shieldspikes (they should all stack)
Custom boots of haste. Every 5 rounds I had to reactivate them, but gave me an extra attack, a small boost to AC and reflex.
Was a dwarf, and maxed out con.
Dwarf paragon, amulet of con, Deepwarden 2. So now I got con to my ac bonus.
Took dwarven defender, now when in my stance, my AC went up due to the stance, and went up again due to con boost. If I had taken fist of the forest as well, the boost would have been double.
Interlocking plate armor. Move by 5 feet or less in your turn, and your AC goes up by 2. So the tank gets even tankier by doing what the tank does.
Biggest problem with that character, was a huge hit to my base reflex save. 3, at level 15. (fighter, cleric1, pious templar, DD, deepwarden, paragon). Second biggest problem was getting enough healing to keep myself alive, especially after my scrolls/wands got destroyed by some ooze with a template.

Ended up with a 43 and 45 AC, without having to spend all my money on it (didn't use defending weapons). And it went up depending on what was happening.
Crystal of screening, +10 vs incorporeal touch attacks.

Corporate M
2010-06-25, 05:35 PM
Why not use AC bonus presented in unearthed arcana?

Don't even have to issue the "armor is now damage reduction part". If you want players to have higher ACs, consult this and I'm sure all the other players will get behind you.

Nidogg
2010-06-25, 06:04 PM
If you have manual of the planes, use full mechanus gear.... Much better than full plate when you really whant those bonuses...

hamishspence
2010-06-25, 06:14 PM
Planar Handbook, actually- still, Mechanus gear is good stuff.

Nidogg
2010-06-25, 06:24 PM
And if you really have the moolah (after the gear) make it weightless as well.... say byby to the massive movement penaltys! (@Hamish whoops got 4th ed and 3.5 books confused)

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-25, 06:56 PM
mineral warrior template + deep warden + knight. play a dwarf, and use mountain plate!

Wings of Peace
2010-06-25, 09:35 PM
You mean Shield? Correct, and fixed. For those just peeking at the thread now I've updated the build I posted a little bit ago. It's at 52 + Int Modifier for AC.

Edit: I added in Power Components so the total ac is now 58 + Int Modifier.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-26, 10:16 PM
Correct, and fixed. For those just peeking at the thread now I've updated the build I posted a little bit ago. It's at 52 + Int Modifier for AC.

Edit: I added in Power Components so the total ac is now 58 + Int Modifier.

That's obscene, and awesome. I never thought I'd see a feral wizard
Which book is wyrm wizard in? Dragon magic? And how does it grant such a high AC bonus to shield of faith when the spell itself states it tops out at +5.

Also, shimmering scales from MiC is an abjuration spell that affects AC, but is only applicable to creatures with natural armour.

How does that build work while actually playing it? Would you be stuck using all your feats just trying to reach prereqs?

Wings of Peace
2010-06-26, 10:25 PM
That's obscene, and awesome. I never thought I'd see a feral wizard
Which book is wyrm wizard in? Dragon magic? And how does it grant such a high AC bonus to shield of faith when the spell itself states it tops out at +5.

Also, shimmering scales from MiC is an abjuration spell that affects AC, but is only applicable to creatures with natural armour.

How does that build work while actually playing it? Would you be stuck using all your feats just trying to reach prereqs?

Wyrm Wizard is from Dragon Magic correct. It loses a caster level but lets us learn shield of faith. Shield of faith only grants +10 not +12 (Bear in mind like all of the abjurations it gains a bonus from Abjurant Champion), you caught a math error on my part.

Aside from BaB most of these PRCs just require some metamagics or feats you would have already taken anyways so it still plays like a regular wizard.

If you wanted you could even take Feral out, but, as this is mostly an ac optimization example I put it in to cover the natural armor bonus.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-26, 10:32 PM
Wyrm Wizard is from Dragon Magic correct. It loses a caster level but lets us learn shield of faith. Shield of faith only grants +10 not +12 (Bear in mind like all of the abjurations it gains a bonus from Abjurant Champion), you caught a math error on my part.

Aside from BaB most of these PRCs just require some metamagics or feats you would have already taken anyways so it still plays like a regular wizard.

If you wanted you could even take Feral out, but, as this is mostly an ac optimization example I put it in to cover the natural armor bonus.

I missed it being an 'abjuration' spell. I was looking at the +5 from the spell itself, and wondering how you made it to +12. Abj Champ did all the rest for you.
Shield of faith is then cast as a wizard spell for you, right? For a half second, was wondering if you could get DMM:Persist on it.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-26, 10:37 PM
I missed it being an 'abjuration' spell. I was looking at the +5 from the spell itself, and wondering how you made it to +12. Abj Champ did all the rest for you.
Shield of faith is then cast as a wizard spell for you, right? For a half second, was wondering if you could get DMM:Persist on it.

Wyrm Wizard lets us learn SoF as an arcane spell yes. DMM Persist is unnecessary, we can persist all the spells we want via Spelldancer.

Edit: For those wishing to take the build epic or who revise it to something cleaner than what I've posted, levels in Legacy Champion should boost AC to Abjuration once keyed to your levels in Abjurant Champion.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 04:31 AM
The Paladin 2 ACF, the Swordsage 2nd level and the Saint template all grant bonuses. You could go for:

-Paladin 2
-Monk 1
-Cleric 3
Granting you access and good use from Divine Shield and Divine Might; Cha to AC twice (taking the Ascetic mage feat). You now can get domains, for domain feats which are good (Chaos devotion can grant you up to +9 to attack or +10 to AC) (Protection Devotion etc.)

You also have the cleric spells.

If you wish to shift to Offence, try for Serenity (if its allowed), Swordsage 4, Cloistered Cleric 1, Paladin 2, Half Celestial, Champion of Correlon Lartham 2, were leopord wood elf. You have +12 str, +12 dex, +6 Con, +0 int, +6 wis, +4 cha. And +4 natural armour, DR 10/magic, resistances, etc.

For Feats, Shadow Blade, Perhaps intuitive attack, Robilars gambit, Storm guard warrior.

You take +4 mithral chain. You are getting Wis to Ac, Wis to Ac, +4 natural, +4 ring of protection and +dex of course. and +9 armour.

You also take the Sword of Grace ful strikes (short sword) and make it feycraft (if you can) So you now add quadriple your dex score to damage.

Robilars gambit, combat reflexes and Storm guard warrior are pretty cool. whenever a guy attacks you, you get an AoO, but stormguard warrior lets you lose that in exchange for +4 attack +4 damage vs that guy. This stacks, so lets say a guy attacks you 4 times, you'll get +16 attack and +16 damage. You can roll that into combat expertise if AC 60 isn't enough for you :smallbiggrin:

Spoilered due to slight Off topicness.
Dante

Gnaritas
2010-06-28, 05:13 AM
However, unless you can convince your DM to get you racial hit die, you'll have lower HP than the rest of the party.

I am confused here, how does racial hit die increase your HP? Doesnt a racial hit die add to your ECL meaning you get a class level less, hence no gain?

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 05:20 AM
I am confused here, how does racial hit die increase your HP? Doesnt a racial hit die add to your ECL meaning you get a class level less, hence no gain?

You're confusing Level Adjustment with Racial Hit Dice. Racial Hit Dice are as they sound, Hit Dice from your race, they grant you skillpoints, feats, hitpoints, etc, but do not progress your normal class abilities in any way.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-28, 05:34 AM
At ECL 12, a Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 can use Shield, Greater Luminous Armor, and (Draconic) Polymorph: War Troll and have an AC of 48 (10 base, +13 armor, +9 shield, +14 natural, +3 dex, -1 size) without any items, plus Luminous Armor imposes a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against him.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 05:46 AM
At ECL 12, a Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 can use Shield, Greater Luminous Armor, and (Draconic) Polymorph: War Troll and have an AC of 48 (10 base, +13 armor, +9 shield, +14 natural, +3 dex, -1 size) without any items, plus Luminous Armor imposes a -4 penalty on melee attacks made against him.

For people prefer spending feats to class levels, Jade Phoenix Mage would probably work as a substitute for Fighter wouldn't it? I wasn't sure if you were just using Fighter for the BaB or if there was another reason.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-28, 06:02 AM
For people prefer spending feats to class levels, Jade Phoenix Mage would probably work as a substitute for Fighter wouldn't it? I wasn't sure if you were just using Fighter for the BaB or if there was another reason.

I'll assume you mean Warblade or Crusader, which wouldn't work because Spellsword requires proficiency in all martial weapons and all armor. ToB classes only get martial melee weapons, so they won't qualify. Plus Fighter 2 gets Dungeoncrasher, so you can cast Heroics to get Knockback after you've taken a large form to get some extra damage out of your attacks.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 06:06 AM
I'll assume you mean Warblade or Crusader, which wouldn't work because Spellsword requires proficiency in all martial weapons and all armor. ToB classes only get martial melee weapons, so they won't qualify. Plus Fighter 2 gets Dungeoncrasher, so you can cast Heroics to get Knockback after you've taken a large form to get some extra damage out of your attacks.

I meant JPM which nets you full BaB and caster progression for later qualifications such as Abjurant Champion and can be taken by level 6 roughly without flaws or level 5 with flaws.

Though I should have also included Dragonslayer in that to grant the needed proficiencies.

Or am I missing the point?

Edit: Nevermind I get it, you're taking them for the fast access to Abjurant Champion

Gnaritas
2010-06-28, 06:49 AM
However, unless you can convince your DM to get you racial hit die, you'll have lower HP than the rest of the party.


I am confused here, how does racial hit die increase your HP? Doesnt a racial hit die add to your ECL meaning you get a class level less, hence no gain?


You're confusing Level Adjustment with Racial Hit Dice. Racial Hit Dice are as they sound, Hit Dice from your race, they grant you skillpoints, feats, hitpoints, etc, but do not progress your normal class abilities in any way.

I am still confused.

If you get racial hit-dice, they are added to you ECL, not?
An Ogre with one level of Fighter is ECL 7 [2 (LA)+4(4 levels of giant) and 1 (fighter)].
If this is right, why would racial hitdice improve your HP, since if you do not get those racial hitdice, you could simply take more class levels and thus gain HP....

I am missing something or i am wrong about some rules.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-28, 07:08 AM
I am still confused.

If you get racial hit-dice, they are added to you ECL, not?
An Ogre with one level of Fighter is ECL 7 [2 (LA)+4(4 levels of giant) and 1 (fighter)].
If this is right, why would racial hitdice improve your HP, since if you do not get those racial hitdice, you could simply take more class levels and thus gain HP....

I am missing something or i am wrong about some rules.

Racial HD are not optional. An Ogre has to have those four levels of giant, he cannot trade them for levels in another class. Giant hit dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType) grant d8+Con hp, Cleric BAB, Fighter saving throws, and 2+Int skill points for each hit dice you get, just as though they were levels in the giant class. There's no such thing as not taking racial hit dice, if you want to play that race you have to take the racial hit dice along with everything else it grants. You can't play a half-orc and just not take the -2 to Int and Cha, if an adult of a given race normally has racial hit dice a character of that race also must have that many racial hit dice.

Gnaritas
2010-06-28, 07:49 AM
I know this, that is why i am confused about the comment CubeB made, quoted 2 posts above this post.

2xMachina
2010-06-28, 08:04 AM
Maybe he meant changing LA to RHD.

Navigator
2010-06-28, 04:57 PM
Dusty rose ioun stone, 5000g, +1 insight bonus to AC.

You may want to consider taking a dip into cleric for turning attempts, and pick up Divine Shield. That is, if you can afford to bump your charisma up. Whenever I do this on a character, I always pick up Parrying Shield, to shore up my touch AC.

If you can stomach taking up to 8th level Fighter, the variant Armor of God is fantastic for boosting AC, as it lets you shift your will save directly to AC. If you do this, you may as well pick up the dungeoncrasher variants.

Aside from AC, don't underestimate picking up adamantine armor. Also, take a look at life-drinking crystals.

Another feat not to underestimate is Elusive Target.

ericgrau
2010-06-28, 05:09 PM
AC for both players and monsters both rise at the rate of roughly 1.25 per level for levels 1-20. +5 ring, +5 amulet, +5 armor, +5 shield = 20. Random magic items (e.g., above ioun stone, boots of speed), buffs, mithril, etc. and maybe feats add another +1 here and there for the rest. AB is only a hair faster from such, which makes sense if you want secondary attacks to hit. That's not counting the cheesier tricks, such as trying to stack multiple defending weapons and other tricks I personally wouldn't allow, but have seen posted. Or the milder options from splatbooks for either AB or AC. The idea that AC doesn't keep up with level comes from players that don't know how.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-28, 05:48 PM
I dunno Eric,
Before spending money, attack automatically increases at a given rate (dependent on class choices) Defense can get an increase every few levels, as you get a stat increase or take a feat, unfortunately it eventually levels off once your dex bonus rises to a certain point.. But attack can also increase at that rate (in addition to what's already been stated), and it doesn't have a cap.
The only thing that makes it possible to really boost AC in line with attack, is the fact that a +3 armor is half the price of +3 weapon.
Meanwhile, if your options are A) kill the enemy faster B) stop him from killing you as fast, it's generally beneficial for the party if you choose A.
My 2 cents

Enguhl
2010-06-28, 05:54 PM
I made a level 10 Dwarven Defender character with 57 AC I think, I'll see if I can find it on my computer.

Edit: Alright I can't find it, but I do know it was a fighter-going-dwarven defender with a dip into deep warden for the Con to AC. Also Interlocking plate and whatnot with combat expertise.

Dr.Epic
2010-06-28, 05:55 PM
Various magical items to increase dexterity, natural armor, and other factors.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 05:57 PM
AC for both players and monsters both rise at the rate of roughly 1.25 per level for levels 1-20. +5 ring, +5 amulet, +5 armor, +5 shield = 20. Random magic items (e.g., above ioun stone, boots of speed), buffs, mithril, etc. and maybe feats add another +1 here and there for the rest. AB is only a hair faster from such, which makes sense if you want secondary attacks to hit. That's not counting the cheesier tricks, such as trying to stack multiple defending weapons and other tricks I personally wouldn't allow, but have seen posted. Or the milder options from splatbooks for either AB or AC. The idea that AC doesn't keep up with level comes from players that don't know how.

How are you getting that buffs only add "+1 here and there"? :smallconfused:

Edit: Thankyou Enghul for mentioning Dwarves. It reminded me for the AC build that Dwarven Ancestor polymorph grants +18 Natural Armor. For new views the build is on page 2 of this thread.

lsfreak
2010-06-28, 06:00 PM
The problem isn't the rate at which someone can accumulate AC, but rather how fast monster's attack bonuses go up. 15th level is the earliest you could expect someone to have that +20AC worth of gear, at which point someone would have dropped a full 75% or more of their WBL into armor. The problem is that 15/16th level monsters that players should be expecting at that point in time generally have attack bonuses in the range of +23-25, which means they still hit on a 10. The cost of increasing armor that much become prohibitive compared to getting other things, like a more rounded defense (including miss chance, saves, evasion) plus a decent offense (remember, you only have 50k at that point left over for everything that's not +AC).

herrhauptmann
2010-06-28, 10:30 PM
How are you getting that buffs only add "+1 here and there"? :smallconfused:

Edit: Thankyou Enghul for mentioning Dwarves. It reminded me for the AC build that Dwarven Ancestor polymorph grants +18 Natural Armor. For new views the build is on page 2 of this thread.

Which book is the 'dwarven ancestor' in?
Nice to know that my great great great grandpa is a total badass now :D

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 11:25 PM
Which book is the 'dwarven ancestor' in?
Nice to know that my great great great grandpa is a total badass now :D

It's from Monster Manual 4, anyone with the Outsider type (*Cough* Otherworldly *Cough*) can just Alternate Self into it (I was wrong about needing Polymorph). I got the name wrong as well it's "Dwarf Ancestor".

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-28, 11:37 PM
I'll assume you mean Warblade or Crusader, which wouldn't work because Spellsword requires proficiency in all martial weapons and all armor. ToB classes only get martial melee weapons, so they won't qualify. Plus Fighter 2 gets Dungeoncrasher, so you can cast Heroics to get Knockback after you've taken a large form to get some extra damage out of your attacks.Crusaders get all martial weapons, actually.

I definitely recommend Tome of Battle for this. There are plenty of really good defensive and buffing maneuvers that will help you to avoid getting hit, such as Wall of Blades, and several to help your party as well. Crusader's Strike and Martial Spirit will keep your (and your party's) hit points high, and you can toss in some binder for some healing goodness. Just don't take any of the directly-offensive maneuvers and you should be okay.

Maybe you should try buffing the party (and by extension, yourself) instead of knocking yourself way down? A small amount of inspire courage optimization (not much, just 3 or so bard levels, Extra Music, and subbing inspire competence out for Song of the Heart, inspirational boost from the Spell Compendium) should give everyone a small but noticeable boost, and if you add those 3 bard levels to your defensively-minded ToB maneuvers, you should make a pretty excellent tank.

Take, for instance, the following kobold build:

Bard 1: Healing Hymn ACF (Complete Champion; +ranks in Perform skill to healing spells), Extra Music feat
Bard 2: Inspirational boost (+1 to inspire courage)
Bard 3: Song of the Heart feat (ACF, Eberron Campaign Setting; trade out inspire competence),
Something 1 (Marshal? Binder?) or bard 4: ?
Crusader 1: Martial Spirit (stance; 2 points of healing to one ally within 30' or yourself on any successful attack) Crusader's Strike (strike; make melee attack, heal 1d6+1/initiator level healing to you or any ally within 30'), Stone Bones (strike; gain DR 5/adamantine on successful melee attack), Shield Ward (counter; grant your shield bonus +4 as a bonus to AC to an adjacent ally), Vanguard Strike (strike; allies gain +4 untyped bonus to attacks against foe you hit), Mountain Hammer (only offensive strike; +2d6 damage and ignore DR & Hardness; can be used for breaking objects, such as walls)
Warblade 1: [I]Song of the White Raven feat (ToB), Bolstering Voice (stance; allies gain +2 on Will saves, +4 vs fear), Wall of Blades (counter; replace AC with attack roll as immediate action), Moment of Perfect Mind (counter; Concentration check instead of Will save), Action Before Thought (counter; Concentration check instead of Ref save)
Bard 5 or Something Else: ?
Crusader 2: Roots of the Mountain (Stance; +10 vs bull rushes, trips, and others, DR 2/-)
Warblade 2: White Raven Tactics (Boost; changes ally's initiative to immediately after yours)

dextercorvia
2010-06-28, 11:42 PM
Bard 3: Song of the Heart feat (ACF, Eberron Campaign Setting; trade out inspire competence)


Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-28, 11:43 PM
Song of the Heart requires Inspire CompetenceBut it can be traded out for Song of the Heart... :smallfrown:

dextercorvia
2010-06-28, 11:49 PM
But it can be traded out for Song of the Heart... :smallfrown:

I haven't read the ACF, but unless it deliberately spells out that you can take the feats without meeting the prereq's, I don't think that one flies.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-28, 11:54 PM
I haven't read the ACF, but unless it deliberately spells out that you can take the feats without meeting the prereq's, I don't think that one flies.Well, it says you can take any of several specific feats in place of new types of bardic music.

Relevant Text: "A bard can take these feats any time she would normally gain a feat, or can choose one of them as a bonus feat instead of gaining a new form of bardic music at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level.

"These bard feats are Haunting Melody, Music of Growth, Music of Making, Song of the Heart, and Soothe the Beast."

It does say "any time" in there, so... Also, don't bonus feats ignore prerequisites unless stated otherwise?

dextercorvia
2010-06-29, 12:03 AM
Well, it says you can take any of several specific feats in place of new types of bardic music.

Relevant Text: "A bard can take these feats any time she would normally gain a feat, or can choose one of them as a bonus feat instead of gaining a new form of bardic music at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, or 18th level.

"These bard feats are Haunting Melody, Music of Growth, Music of Making, Song of the Heart, and Soothe the Beast."

It does say "any time" in there, so... Also, don't bonus feats ignore prerequisites unless stated otherwise?

The any time refers to gaining feats, so a Bard could choose Song of the Heart as his 3rd level feat. But even then, he couldn't choose it as his 1st level feat. AFAIK, you have to meet the prereq's for any feat (bonus or otherwise) you take, unless it is specified otherwise. It would be totally legit to trade out any of the 6th level or higher bardic music abilities for Song of the Heart, but I'm 99% sure that you can't trade Inspire Competence for it. The only reason for that 1% is that I've seen a lot of people do it in builds.

aeauseth
2010-06-29, 12:12 PM
I compiled an Armor Class Guide (http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Armor_Class_Guide) for my personal reference. A 12th level fighter could easily have an AC of 33. That gives you lvl+21 AC, which was what you were looking for.

The fighter in my campaign took "Combat Expertise" and gains +5 to his AC when he wants to truely take on the tanking role.

As for spending gold to increase your AC, look at the guide link above for some ideas. You should be able to wear gauntlets of defending +1 while weilding a sheild +1 and sword +1.

The other postings seem to have covered several tricky methods to increase your AC. I just wanted to point out that using simple & standard rules you can easily reach the lvl+20 AC target using 50% of your networth.

Paul H
2010-07-02, 08:04 PM
Hi

Had a Dward Fighter 9 in our game last night. (Died to Bodak's gaze, though...)

Full Plate +3
Tower Shield +3
Ring Protextion +2
Dex 12

No money left for Amulet Nat Armour, but AC 31 (35 with Barkskin cast on him) at 9th level isn't too bad. Could have had other buffs, but OP said not to include them.

Note: Limited access to books. PHB, DMG, MM1, Complete: (Arcane, Adventurer, Divine, Warrior), Magic Item & Spell Compendiums ONLY.

Thanks
Paul H

woodenbandman
2010-07-03, 01:11 PM
If we're still on about theoretically possible AC, I'd give it to either a druid or a Dwarf Monk multiclass-thing. Though I know there was a build that had like 140 AC or something all based on charisma.

A druid with some +5 wild ironwood Mountain plate (I think that's the +10 armor bonus from the special dwarven armor thingy), wildling clasps on their ring of protection/amulet of natural armor, and a monk belt (this does work, and if it's ruled not to then just go for bracers of armor), wildshaped into, say, a Dire bear, has an AC of 43+wisdom mod.

Dwarf monk thingy can get Deepwarden + Fist of the Forest in addition to their standard +wisdom to AC, for an AC of (with everything thrown in), 28 +2xCon + wisdom (amulet of armor, ring of protection, etc). Templates make it better (feral adds something like + 10 AC if you include all the bonuses to ability scores).

Paul H
2010-07-03, 03:30 PM
Hi

Though the Druid would still have to gain Hvy Armour Prof from somewhere.......

Thanks
Paul H

Popertop
2010-07-03, 03:33 PM
Switch to a Falchion because the crit range is better and take combat expertise. With improved crit you crit on (15-20) so you will crit 30% of the time use power attack and combat expertise. When you hit it’s for a lot and you have a really high AC.

too bad you still have to break someones ac to crit them, unless it's a natural 20.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-03, 03:41 PM
A druid with some +5 wild ironwood Mountain plate (I think that's the +10 armor bonus from the special dwarven armor thingy), wildling clasps on their ring of protection/amulet of natural armor, and a monk belt (this does work, and if it's ruled not to then just go for bracers of armor), wildshaped into, say, a Dire bear, has an AC of 43+wisdom mod.


Doesn't the Druid's armor merge into his form thus losing him that armors ac bonus when he wildshapes?

herrhauptmann
2010-07-03, 03:52 PM
Doesn't the Druid's armor merge into his form thus losing him that armors ac bonus when he wildshapes?

I think that's what the wildling clasp is for. Any clothing item then adjusts to fit your new form. Can also get beastskin armor.

Though am I reading him right in saying that he stacks bracers of armor and his wooden mountain plate?

lsfreak
2010-07-03, 03:52 PM
Doesn't the Druid's armor merge into his form thus losing him that armors ac bonus when he wildshapes?

Simply put it on after they wideshape.

EDIT: Yea, he's putting bracers of armor with regular armor, which won't work.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-03, 04:02 PM
Simply put it on after they wideshape.

EDIT: Yea, he's putting bracers of armor with regular armor, which won't work.

There's no rule about human armor not fitting the bear? Or are we assuming this armor was crafted to fit the bear and not the human?

Nevermind, re-read Wilding Clasp.

Paul H
2010-07-10, 06:31 PM
Hi

1) Druid/Master Many Forms. Shift into high Nat Armour critter, then cast one of 'Bite' series from SpC.

2) Monk/Wizard/Enlightened Fist. Dex & Wis bonus to armour, plus Gtr Mage Armour & Shield. 2 levels of Argent Savant increase powers of force armours.

Cheers
Paul H

sofawall
2010-07-10, 07:50 PM
2) Monk/Wizard/Enlightened Fist. Dex & Wis bonus to armour, plus Gtr Mage Armour & Shield. 2 levels of Argent Savant increase powers of force armours.


Been done earlier in the thread, and better, with Abj. Champ.