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EENick
2010-06-25, 08:43 AM
Hey all,

My play group just bought a special level 1-15 adventure box set and we're all making new character planning to run through this adventure this summer. I'm planning working towards becoming a cerebremancer an arcane/wizard hybrid similar to the Mystic Thurge due to the long dungeon crawly nature of this adventure where having tons and tons of spells will really have a chance to shine.

I see a lot of potential for abuse like taking Telepthay to get Schism and then using it to cast stilled and silent spells as "purely mental actions". However I only recently got the Psionics rules so I was hoping some more experienced twinks might be able to offer some advice on making a cerebremancer and what some strong combinations are.

Caliphbubba
2010-06-25, 08:56 AM
No real advise for cerebremancer per se, but you might want to consider the Reserve Feats from Complete Mage if you're worried about having enough juice to last throughout a long dungeoncrawl.

good luck

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 09:00 AM
Don't need to still/silence the spells. You're a Cerebremancer. Use your Powers, as they're stilled and silent.

Ranos
2010-06-25, 09:12 AM
The Cerebremancer is just another kind of mystic theurge, so the class itself has nothing to twink. As usual with mystic theurges, they are pretty weak, but with practiced manifester you'll be at least able to augment your powers to the level you ought to be able to.

The schism thing is doable, but pretty damn expensive in terms of feats and slots. When you're already a Cerebremancer, you really don't want to lose even more spell levels. As 2X said, just use your powers with the second mind and your spells with the first one.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-25, 09:18 AM
My first thought would be a wilder / sorcerer and take versitile spellcaster to get in early with one level of sorcerer. I think you can hit the spell reqs at 4th with "wilder 3 / sorcerer 1". The wilder lack of number of powers can be offset by the sorcerer acting as a utility caster. I would suggest that the wilder act as a damage dealer and leave the sorcerer casting for useful spells.

A Psion / Wizard is a great caster, but I don't know any method of early entry.

Note, there is a dificulty with a psion / arcane caster progresion, and that is they run off difrent feats. You can pick up ether metamagic or metapsionics. You really lack the feats for both. Pick one and go with it.

That being said, a psion is great at nova, and having that extra power from arcane casting in reserve for after you burn through your PP is great. Just make sure to avoid duplication. If you are a kinetisist, don't bother with damage spells, ect.

The idea of reserve feats is a good idea. Also I would emphisise the psionic CL over the magic one, thus the wilder / sor build. Utility spells don't need as much in the way of CL.

Also remember that you can manifest a power out of a power stone without burning it up. It isn't practical in combat, but a stone of teleport is a cheap way to ignore the fact that you aren't a nomad. It's a wilder's best friend.

Darth Stabber
2010-06-25, 09:25 AM
1: Specialize (probably conj, but divination is good too) on the wizard side, and ban enchantment (and probably evocation) and for your discipline choose telepathy. The lack of enchantment will not hurt you since telepathy can do all the same, sometimes better.)

2: If allowed use precocious apprentice cheese, do so. (you are playing a theurge, it is not as cheesy as it would be in other builds)

3: When you pick powers and spells, you should choose powers based on likelyhood of frequent use, and then use the wizard side to fill in with effects you can't get otherwise. Specializing in divination keeps all of the cards on the table as far as wizarding goes, as long as you make telpath do most of the heavy lifting (and if you do use precocious apprentice cheese, it will just work out that way any way).

4: Int boosting items are even more important to you than normal wizards and psions. Since you are behind of spell/power level for your level, you will need your save DCs boosted through the roof if you are to be useful in a fight


5: As much as it pains me to say it, minimise your use of Expanded Knowledge. If you absolutly need an effect, there is a wizard spell out there that is probably as good if not better.

6: schism should be used to manifest psionic powers (since those are automatically silent and still, with out increasing the spell level, or burning feat slots), and then use your normal actions for spells. You probably want both quickens though (allowing you to become the machinegun of magic).

7: Getting a Psycrystal is far better than a familiar (Since it is based on manifester level as opposed to base class level). You may see if you can get your DM to waive your famliar for free psycrysal affinity, worth a shot anyway. Especially given that you can make your psycrystal concentrate on powers for you, leaving you free to do more stuff.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 09:27 AM
How much cheese can you tolerate?

For the Wilder/Sorc, go Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold. It'll shore up 3 lvls of Sorc.

EENick
2010-06-25, 10:07 AM
No real advise for cerebremancer per se, but you might want to consider the Reserve Feats from Complete Mage if you're worried about having enough juice to last throughout a long dungeoncrawl.

good luck

Thanks, maybe next time I get paid I'll try and get that book in PDF form.


The Cerebremancer is just another kind of mystic theurge, so the class itself has nothing to twink. As usual with mystic theurges, they are pretty weak, but with practiced manifester you'll be at least able to augment your powers to the level you ought to be able to.

The schism thing is doable, but pretty damn expensive in terms of feats and slots. When you're already a Cerebremancer, you really don't want to lose even more spell levels. As 2X said, just use your powers with the second mind and your spells with the first one.

Yea I know but my group doesn't want anything too powerful so the cerebremancer is a compromise.

Practiced manifester eh? That sounds pretty darn good! I'll have to get Complete Psionics too I guess.


My first thought would be a wilder / sorcerer and take versitile spellcaster to get in early with one level of sorcerer. I think you can hit the spell reqs at 4th with "wilder 3 / sorcerer 1". The wilder lack of number of powers can be offset by the sorcerer acting as a utility caster. I would suggest that the wilder act as a damage dealer and leave the sorcerer casting for useful spells.

A Psion / Wizard is a great caster, but I don't know any method of early entry.

*snip*

The idea of reserve feats is a good idea. Also I would emphisise the psionic CL over the magic one, thus the wilder / sor build. Utility spells don't need as much in the way of CL.

Also remember that you can manifest a power out of a power stone without burning it up. It isn't practical in combat, but a stone of teleport is a cheap way to ignore the fact that you aren't a nomad. It's a wilder's best friend.

Wait how does a level one Sorcerer meet the requirements? Wouldn't precocious apprentice work for a wizard getting them to the level 2 spell requirement?

Good point about the power stones.


1: Specialize (probably conj, but divination is good too) on the wizard side, and ban enchantment (and probably evocation) and for your discipline choose telepathy. The lack of enchantment will not hurt you since telepathy can do all the same, sometimes better.)

2: If allowed use precocious apprentice cheese, do so. (you are playing a theurge, it is not as cheesy as it would be in other builds)

3: When you pick powers and spells, you should choose powers based on likelyhood of frequent use, and then use the wizard side to fill in with effects you can't get otherwise. Specializing in divination keeps all of the cards on the table as far as wizarding goes, as long as you make telpath do most of the heavy lifting (and if you do use precocious apprentice cheese, it will just work out that way any way).

4: Int boosting items are even more important to you than normal wizards and psions. Since you are behind of spell/power level for your level, you will need your save DCs boosted through the roof if you are to be useful in a fight


5: As much as it pains me to say it, minimise your use of Expanded Knowledge. If you absolutly need an effect, there is a wizard spell out there that is probably as good if not better.

6: schism should be used to manifest psionic powers (since those are automatically silent and still, with out increasing the spell level, or burning feat slots), and then use your normal actions for spells. You probably want both quickens though (allowing you to become the machinegun of magic).

7: Getting a Psycrystal is far better than a familiar (Since it is based on manifester level as opposed to base class level). You may see if you can get your DM to waive your famliar for free psycrysal affinity, worth a shot anyway. Especially given that you can make your psycrystal concentrate on powers for you, leaving you free to do more stuff.

Seems like all pretty solid advice. I think I'll try asking me DM about psycrystal affinity. I think that might fly.


How much cheese can you tolerate?

For the Wilder/Sorc, go Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold. It'll shore up 3 lvls of Sorc.

Hmmm I think that might be a bit much cheese for my party members, but it is still worth a try.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. I apreciate everyone pointing out the pros and cons. I guess still and silent spell would be a bit much now that everyone points it out. :smallredface:

If anyone else has something else to suggest I'm all ears. I've been playing other roll playing games for a while now instead of 3.5 so learning about feats I hadn't heard about and getting some solid advice is a huge help.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-25, 10:08 AM
Cerebremancers can be very strong with early entry shenanigans and action economy boosters. Take powers like Schism, Synchronicity, temporal Acceleration and Anticipatory Strike and you can throw a huge number of spells and powers around in each round. Twinned Synchronicity in particular can result in great output.

As for early entry, Precocious Apprentice and Sanctum Spell are the easiest means.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 10:11 AM
There's also the PP refill tricks... but it's super cheese.

Person_Man
2010-06-25, 10:22 AM
You probably already know this but don't care, but I think it's worth reiterating that beyond level 4 you will perpetually be 1 or 2 spell and power levels behind all of your friends. For example, at ECL 10, you will essentially be a Wizard 7//Psion 7. You will have 3rd level spells and powers, your friends will have 5th level spells/powers/maneuvers/etc. This will make you very weak and somewhat useless for much of the campaign.

If you are worried about running out of resources (which rarely actually happens, since you an just retreat and rest when needed via a variety of means) you may wish to consider any Tome of Battle class, or a Dragonfire Adept, Binder, Incarnate, or Totemist. All of the are much better "all day" classes.

EENick
2010-06-25, 10:23 AM
Cerebremancers can be very strong with early entry shenanigans and action economy boosters. Take powers like Schism, Synchronicity, temporal Acceleration and Anticipatory Strike and you can throw a huge number of spells and powers around in each round. Twinned Synchronicity in particular can result in great output.

As for early entry, Precocious Apprentice and Sanctum Spell are the easiest means.

Yea I'm certainly not opposed to the idea of my character being what you would expect out of main character in a John Woo movie if he did fantasy instead of gritty martial arts.

I think I'd rather go with Precocious Apprentice over sanctum due to the nature of the adventure.


There's also the PP refill tricks... but it's super cheese.

Power Point refill tricks? By all means please elaborate good sir! I'd certainly like to hear about it even if my group isn't likely to go for it.

EDIT:

You probably already know this but don't care, but I think it's worth reiterating that beyond level 4 you will perpetually be 1 or 2 spell and power levels behind all of your friends. For example, at ECL 10, you will essentially be a Wizard 7//Psion 7. You will have 3rd level spells and powers, your friends will have 5th level spells/powers/maneuvers/etc. This will make you very weak and somewhat useless for much of the campaign.

If you are worried about running out of resources (which rarely actually happens, since you an just retreat and rest when needed via a variety of means) you may wish to consider any Tome of Battle class, or a Dragonfire Adept, Binder, Incarnate, or Totemist. All of the are much better "all day" classes.

I hear you but like I said, there are some internal group reasons for picking this particular class. It isn't that I don't care, it is just that there are other factors involved.

Darth Stabber
2010-06-25, 11:02 AM
PP refill tricks tend to involve Psycarnum infusion and azure talent, and whatever those pp storage crystals are called (cognizance crystals I think). I don't remember the full trick, but it involves using some feats to generate a rediculous amount of PP that only lasts one round, then dumping them into a crystal where they won't dissappear since they were technically spent, and then having full access to them since they are now real PP as opposed to temp.

Also don't forget opportunity power for even more action economy abuse.

That is really what cerebramancer does best, with their doctorate in Action Economics. Manifesting/casting 7 times in a round is impressive, and cerebramance is one of the few classes that make it really doable. (Spell, quickened spell, Schism power, quickened schism power, opportunity power, last turn's twinned spell, last turn's twinned power). They may not have the highest level effects, but they resolve 1d6 encounters per round.

Feats that are basically needed for the build PHD in actions build
Quicken spell
Quicken Power
twinned power
twinned spell
psycrystal affinity
psycrystal containment
psionic meditation
opportunity power(optional, may not prove useful if people aren't provoking AOO from you, much better for psywar, also your psionic focus is at an extreme premium in this build)

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 11:06 AM
Don't be a Psion. Be an Ardent and take Practiced Manifester.

Maybe try early entry cheese on the arcane side, although I'm not entirely well versed in that. In either case, you'll have level 9s on one side, at least.

Flickerdart
2010-06-25, 11:09 AM
Learn this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm). Use it whenever you're out of PP. It will give you a minimum of 33 power points, more with caster level cheese, and access to five powers.

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 11:09 AM
Mr Stabber, you are forgetting Linked Power (CPsionic) for even more action economy abuse. Remember kids, Torcs of Power Preservation are your friend! Squeeze in as many PP per action as you can! NOVA THE WORLD!

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 11:10 AM
Learn this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm). Use it whenever you're out of PP. It will give you a minimum of 33 power points, more with caster level cheese, and access to five powers.

Note that you can use these PP for any power you know, not just the ones granted by Mental Pinnacle.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 11:12 AM
Learn this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm). Use it whenever you're out of PP. It will give you a minimum of 33 power points, more with caster level cheese, and access to five powers.

Works best with StP Erudite.

And Erudite/Wizard/CM is quite good. Any spell/power. You have it.

Though StP Erudite/Wizard/(some Psionic/divine dual prog) has EVERYTHING. Powers, check. Divine, check. Arcane spells in power form, check. Arcane spells in divine form, check.

Darth Stabber
2010-06-25, 11:19 AM
If we are adding more meta psionics to the build- keep in mind that those all require a psifocus, and you can generate one of those per round, and you and your psicrystal together can hold 2. I think adding more will feat starve the poor guy, since he would have to try to come up with more focus cheese too. Forgot about mental pinnacle, but yes you need it in this build, hard, the 5 shiny new powers are just icing.

We have the engine now, what do we want to use for killing?

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 11:24 AM
Alternatively, StP Erudite/Archivist/PsychicTheurge.

Powers? Check. Wizard spells? Check. Cleric spells? Check. Druid spells? Check. Ranger spells? Check. Paladin spells? Check. Divine Bard spells? Check. Spells as powers? Check.

That leaves off the Assassin list and the Wujen list. Awwwwww.

BTW, can a StP Erudite get Sorcerer-only spells like Arcane Fusion or Arcane Spellsurge? Cause that would be...wow.

Ranos
2010-06-25, 11:30 AM
Don't be a Psion. Be an Ardent and take Practiced Manifester.

Maybe try early entry cheese on the arcane side, although I'm not entirely well versed in that. In either case, you'll have level 9s on one side, at least.

I can't believe I forgot about the Ardent. Definitely do this.

Darth Stabber
2010-06-25, 12:01 PM
Human Wizard(diviner, ban ench)1/psion(telepath)3/CerebremancerX

Flaw - Loner (no familiar, from Dragon Magazine)

Feats
1st - Precocious Apprentice, quicken spell(human), repeat spell(flaw)
2nd - psionic Meditaion(bonus feat)
3rd - psycrystal affinity
6th - quicken power
9th - psycrystal containment
12th - linked power
15th - twinned spell
18th - twinned power

This is not not as cheesy as it could get but it does allow for 18th level spell supernova, depending on availability of any kind of metamagic reducer. Since you can have spells that cast twice in a round and twice again in the next round. Any your schism based psionic powers are adding to that machine gun rate of fire.

Assuming that schism and meta magic/psionics are your only accelerators

-Last turn's twinned linked power (2)

-Last turn's twinned repeated spell (4),

-This turns Quickened spell (5)

-This turn's twinned spell (7)

-This turns twinned power(9),

-This turn's quickened power (10)

and there you go 10 spells/powers in a single turn.

And keep in mind there are alot of other powers/spells that can add to this, It is always rather interesting to run completely of ouf spells in 1 combat after casting all of them within 4 rounds. The biggest limiter to this is psionic focus. If you can find another way to keep generating them as a non-action, you can keep the above rate of fire up for a few turns as opposed to just one nova, and that only really limits psionics, spells are uneffected.

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 12:17 PM
You could also add last turns scism twinned linked power and this turns scism twinned power. If you don't take Loner as your flaw, you could have your familiar cast a quickened and normal spell with imbue with spell ability.

Granted, you'll probably have burned through all of your PP and most of your spell slots, but I'll be damned if thats not a huge load of dakka.

Person_Man
2010-06-25, 12:32 PM
I hear you but like I said, there are some internal group reasons for picking this particular class. It isn't that I don't care, it is just that there are other factors involved.

Out of curiosity, what are the other factors? I never question someone who says, "Yes I know this sucks, but I really want to use such and such ability and/or the fluff is exactly what I want and I don't like re-fluffing other classes." But there's really no compelling mechanic or story that I can think of behind a Psion/Wizard that couldn't be accomplished by a single class version of either.

EENick
2010-06-25, 12:56 PM
@Darth Stabber: Wow that is impressive, 10 spells a round sounds pretty good to me. If you worked expanded knowledge into there somehow to pick up fission couldn’t you just alternate between yourself and your copy each round one of your going nova and the other spending the round recovering focus?

@Yuki Akuma: Ardent? I know they are some sort of psi-warrior right? I’ll have to look into them, I’m not sure if they would really mesh later on with a d4 hit dice and other class features of the cerebremancer but then again maybe with all the psi feats I could just take that feat which gives you two hit points each time you take a psi feat.

@Flickerdart: That is amazing!

@Keld Denar: I think we would already blow psi-focus on quicken and twin which give full damage rather than half.

@Keld Denar/2xMachina: I can see that, particularly with the Archivist combo for a PychicTheurge (which since it is about the same as a Cerebremancer should be okay with my group). But how many PP do Erudite’s get? I think I’d probably not want to go for a 10 spell a turn build if I didn’t have the PP to sustain it and instead focus on being the Swiss army knife of PCs. And yes that is a lot of dakka.

@Ranos: I’ll have to look into the complete psionic to read up on the ardent vs the Erudite vs just being a Psion. I admit the idea of being able to cast almost any spell or power does seem pretty appealing provided it won’t leave me a one encounter wonder (but the MP trick should take care of that provided I can get my hands on the needed potions) so I’m rather thinking that might be the way to go right now.

@Person_man: Oh well it is less RP then group politics. The group I’m joining is sort of sick of wizards taking the lead (apparently before I joined for this new adventure the wizards had pretty much taken over the game and the other players were rather board with what was supposed to be an epic conflict) so they asked if everyone would be willing to pick up a second class of some sort to give the other players a chance to shine and we all agreed to give it a try at least for this game hence why I’m employing the under power Cerebremancer or now possibly the psychicthurge. In short caster were all asked if we would take this particular handicap for the sake of the whole group having fun and I agreed to give it a try and just see if I couldn’t twink back up to par or better.

They described it as Arthur questing for Excalibur to confront his foes only for Merlyn to say “a sword how quaint” and teleport in behind Mordread and nuke ‘em.

Thanks again for all the feedback and advice everyone.

2xMachina
2010-06-25, 01:04 PM
Erudite gets Psion's PP. The difference is that it has Unique Powers per Day rather than a power's known limit. Pick blasty powers on Erudite, and Utility on Archivist.

Use the Mental Pinnacle trick to refill PP. :smallwink:

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-25, 01:27 PM
Ardent is more like a cleric with domains you manifest from. I would read ardent very carefuly for the rules, becuse you may only take powers from your mantels, and you gain new mantels from ardent levels. You wouldn't gain any more mantels after you started another class or PRC, and that will sharply restrict the powers you can manifest. If you can find all the powers you need in two mantels go for it, otherwise don't.

You do gain domain like boosts from the mantels though.

You also run into a wiz/int or wiz/cha split for casting stats insted of a int/int or cha/cha.

In response to your question about getting sorcerer to meet the ability to cast 2nd level spell requierments at 1st level.

VERSATILE SPELLCASTER - page 101 Races of the Dragon.

You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one
level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefi t: You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example,
a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell
slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows

You can use two of your first level spell slots to cast a second level spell. Therefore you can cast a second level spell.

I would strongly suggest you not take a caster mix class without some form of early entry. Being one level of manifestation behind everyone is worth also having arcane casting of level-3. You still have equle levels of powers half the time. If both are three levels behind than not so much.

Ranos
2010-06-25, 01:32 PM
@Ranos: I’ll have to look into the complete psionic to read up on the ardent vs the Erudite vs just being a Psion. I admit the idea of being able to cast almost any spell or power does seem pretty appealing provided it won’t leave me a one encounter wonder (but the MP trick should take care of that provided I can get my hands on the needed potions) so I’m rather thinking that might be the way to go right now.

The interesting thing with ardents is that their powers known are not based on class level, but on manifester level. That means you get to manifest powers of a level equal to a full psion, even if you lose up to 4 levels to multiclassing. Wizard 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer X ends up with double nines at 20, only losing one level of casting on the wizard side. Doing that makes you end up with less PP and less variety of powers though, but the level of your powers is usually much more important.




They described it as Arthur questing for Excalibur to confront his foes only for Merlyn to say “a sword how quaint” and teleport in behind Mordread and nuke ‘em.

I'm afraid you're not going to solve this problem by just switching classes. D&D 3.5 is not the system for low-magic campaigns. The Arthurian/Conan/LOTR kind of stories just don't work.



Ardent is more like a cleric with domains you manifest from. I would read ardent very carefuly for the rules, becuse you may only take powers from your mantels, and you gain new mantels from ardent levels. You wouldn't gain any more mantels after you started another class or PRC, and that will sharply restrict the powers you can manifest. If you can find all the powers you need in two mantels go for it, otherwise don't.

Thankfully, you get to cherry pick your powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), as long as they all fit into the theme of the mantle. Yay for substitute powers.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-25, 01:43 PM
VERSATILE SPELLCASTER - page 101 Races of the Dragon.

You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one
level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefi t: You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example,
a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell
slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows

You can use two of your first level spell slots to cast a second level spell. Therefore you can cast a second level spell.

That won't cut it on its own. You need to be able to cast a 2nd level spell with that slot to qualify for things. Heighten Spell mixed in will satisfy the requirement since you can use it on a 1st level spell using the 2nd level slot, making an actual 2nd level spell.

Alternatively, Warmages, Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers can actually cast higher level spells than normal with Versatile Spellcaster since they know all spells on their list at all times, but lack slots.

Ranos
2010-06-25, 01:58 PM
Alternatively, Warmages, Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers can actually cast higher level spells than normal with Versatile Spellcaster since they know all spells on their list at all times, but lack slots.
So you can use advanced learning to get a spell of a level higher than you can cast as well ? That could be interesting.

EENick
2010-06-25, 02:01 PM
@2xMachina: Sounds pretty good.

@Fouredged Sword: Well even I don’t end up running Ardent Sorcerer I thank you for suggesting that feat. It is pretty cool and I think I would enjoy using it in future.

@Ranos: I never said it would fix things, that was the groups idea, I just said I agreed to try it for the sake of the group.

Is there a feat to let you take more mantles later to make up for that rather unfortunate restriction when you switch into a prestige class?

@Claudius Maximus: Good point, thanks for pointing that out.

Person_Man
2010-06-25, 02:15 PM
@Person_man: Oh well it is less RP then group politics. The group I’m joining is sort of sick of wizards taking the lead (apparently before I joined for this new adventure the wizards had pretty much taken over the game and the other players were rather board with what was supposed to be an epic conflict) so they asked if everyone would be willing to pick up a second class of some sort to give the other players a chance to shine and we all agreed to give it a try at least for this game hence why I’m employing the under power Cerebremancer or now possibly the psychicthurge. In short caster were all asked if we would take this particular handicap for the sake of the whole group having fun and I agreed to give it a try and just see if I couldn’t twink back up to par or better.

They described it as Arthur questing for Excalibur to confront his foes only for Merlyn to say “a sword how quaint” and teleport in behind Mordread and nuke ‘em.

Fair enough. When I first discovered the forums years ago and started using more powerful spells my group went through this as well. I responded by changing my spells, focusing a lot more on buffing my allies, and a lot less on combat winning battlefield control and plot breaking divination spells. If I really wanted to use a particularly awesome spell, I make a point of spending one or two combats doing nothing but using a crossbow and Magic Missile. But hey, whatever works best for you works best for you.

EENick
2010-06-25, 02:33 PM
Fair enough. When I first discovered the forums years ago and started using more powerful spells my group went through this as well. I responded by changing my spells, focusing a lot more on buffing my allies, and a lot less on combat winning battlefield control and plot breaking divination spells. If I really wanted to use a particularly awesome spell, I make a point of spending one or two combats doing nothing but using a crossbow and Magic Missile. But hey, whatever works best for you works best for you.

Not a bad suggestion actualy. Plus it would be awesome if after acting like a supporting character for most of the campain the character suddenly opens up with the big guns at a dramatic moment when the chips are down.

Person_Man
2010-06-25, 03:01 PM
Not a bad suggestion actualy. Plus it would be awesome if after acting like a supporting character for most of the campain the character suddenly opens up with the big guns at a dramatic moment when the chips are down.

The trick is to spend most of your time directly buffing your party and hanging back, and to only whip out your best spells after several players die and TPK looks imminent. (And even then, you can do things like cast Polymorph on the Fighter instead of yourself). Don't "rob" the other players of the opportunity to win the day, and don't whine about how you could have ended combat in one round with your cosmic powers if you wanted to, but you choose to let the peons wave around their pointy metal things so that they could have fun too. People hate that.

Ashiel
2010-06-26, 05:39 AM
Since you're looking for a combination of longevity, endurance, and subtle (so you don't upstage your friends), I would suggest choosing spells and psionic powers that allow you to affect the battles in major ways without people really noticing, and with as few slots or power points as possible. Here are some of my recommendations.

Powers
Grease, Psionic - Costs 1 PP, functions as arcane grease. You can spam this power over the course of an adventure to drive your enemies crazy (1/2 speed, flat footed if ranks in tumble < 5, save vs falling prone. Also if your enemies are charging or similar, auto-fail on the save. Makes your party's rogue happy too since it opens up sneak attacking if your enemies are heavily invested in Balance ranks. Finally, it grants a +10 bonus to escape grapples if you manifest it targeting someone; and can force a save every round to avoid dropping an item (since you can target a weapon or held object with it).

Entangling Ectoplasm - Costs 1 PP, affects medium or smaller creatures but you can augment it to affect larger creatures. You get a ranged touch attack to entangle your target for 5 rounds; which inflicts pretty heavy penalties. It's a Creation power so it ignores spell resistance and there is no saving throw after the touch attack. Again, a good power for contributing without using up your PP or stealing the show.

Vigor and Share Pain - Costs ML * PP + 3 PP. This is another good one for helping you and your party members, and they'll love you for it. Best when combined with a Psicrystal. Basically, manifest vigor at full power, gaining 5 temporary HP * PP spent, sharing it with your psicrystal (so it also gains 5 temporary HP * PP spent). Afterwords, share pain on some of your party members, so your psicrystal takes 1/2 their damage. You can do the same. You create a very nice damage soak this way. The power is also dismissible should it become more hazardous to have it active.

Energy Wall - Costs 5 PP, concentration holds. This power is one of my favorites for Psions on a budget. When you first get it, it will be most expensive power you can manifest, but you can squeeze a lot out of those power points. The power deals 2d6 damage of your choice of energy, with a +1 * ML level bonus to the damage for anyone who is inside the wall. The power lasts Concentration + 1 round / level; so it'll last 5 rounds when you first get it assuming you pop it and drop it; but it can last indefinitely as long as you spend a standard action each round to hold it up.

My favorite energy types for this power are electricity and sonic, since the +1 damage per die bonus of fire and cold don't really do much, nor does the -1 damage per die for sonic mean much either. It's exceptionally good for breaking through doors if you manifest it as sonic. I've had players level castle walls with this power in short order.

Ideally, you place this somewhere that hampers your enemies movements towards your party, form defensive circles, or offensive circles (trapping people inside). Basically you want to make it so they have to choose moving through the wall (and thus taking 2d6 + ML level damage), or adjusting their actions and trying to improvise. If your psicrystal can hold concentration, this makes a great protective shield around you (sonic makes it difficult to harm you with physical ranged weaponry too).

Time Hop - Costs 5 PP. This power lets you get creative. It can potentially remove an opponent from combat for quite a bit, or allow your group to get past a sentry without them noticing. However, its real use comes in the ability to time-hop objects. Use it to make doors or barriers disappear for a few rounds; make the bridge vanish beneath your pursuers; and so on. There's a lot of use you can get out of this power.

Telekinetic Maneuver - Costs 7 PP. Now you're in business. This power is another Concentration (up to 1 round/ML) duration power, and it allows you to grapple, trip, disarm, and bull-rush with an effective bonus of ML + Int Modifier; and for every 2 PP you spend above 7, you get another +1 to it. Stand back and drive your enemies insane as you hound them with medium range (100ft + 10ft / level) maneuvers; and your party will love you for it. This battle can give you effective battlefield control, and allow you to help the fighters and rogues out a lot. Double the fun if your psicrystal can hold the concentration so you can keep two going at once.

Oh, and it's a Force effect, so you can trip, disarm, bull rush, or even grapple incorporeal creatures like ghosts, shadows, and the like. Now that's fun stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Ectoplasmic Shambler - Costs 9 PP. This one is fun. You create a swarm-like minion that cannot be harmed, that lasts for 1 minute / ML (or 10 rounds / ML), that has a speed of 10ft (but it can run up to 40ft per round). It can envelope enemies, and deals 1/2 your ML in damage every round that a creature is in contact with it, or any round they remain in contact with it. You can manifest multiples and let them harass your opponents greatly. Just by being inside of them opponents must make Concentration checks, and that's not counting the damage they deal.

Given their duration and the fact you cannot hurt them, ectoplasmic shamblers are a great way to turn 9 PP into rounds upon rounds of fun. The best part? It's size is equal to 10 10ft cubes, and is shape-able by default, so you can have a blast with it.

Energy Conversion - Costs 11 PP. This is basically resist energy on the 'roids. Not only do you ignore the first 20-30 damage of acid, fire, electricty, cold, or sonic. It lasts 10 min / level, and any energy damage you absorb, you may store and fire back as rays of the appropriate energy type. The reason this is a lot of fun is that you can take your enemies' attacks and throw them back at them; or better yet...

Stand in your own energy wall. You will amass huge amounts of energy damage this way to convert into rays. The rays deal damage equal to the amount of energy damage stored up, up to 3 * ML (so 33 damage at 11th ML). Best yet, you can share it with your psicrystal so it gains just as much juice and can fire lasers too. :smallsmile:

The following are Discipline Powers
Astral Construct - 1+ PP. This shaper power is too good to pass up. It's good for springing traps, creating a flanking buddy for your fighters and rogues, and can save you from drowning in a pinch. It's fire and forget utility is useful, since you can manifest 1 power and contribute with your little friend for the rest of an encounter.

Charm, Psionic - 1+ PP. This telepathy power is almost cruel against humanoid targets, whom you can repeatedly spam towards for 1 PP until they biff their save; and you can later upgrade it to charm monster levels. The downside is it is mind-affecting and it can be blocked easily with spells like protection from chaos/evil/good/law.

Energy Missile - 3 PP. This kineticist power is good if you really just want some good ol' fashioned blasting. Its ability to single out targets makes it party-friendly since you won't blow up your fighter on accident.

Control Body - 7 PP. This kineticist power has some good options that most don't really consider. It allows you to take control over humanoid-shaped target's body while you Concentrate. If the subject is in combat, it uses an attack bonus equal to your BAB + Int mod, gains your Int mod on damage rolls, doesn't benefit from its dexterity to AC, but adds your Int mod to its AC. If you have a Psicrystal to hold the concentration, you can even manifest this power on yourself, allowing your psicrystal to use your body to attack if desired, while you manifest psionic powers. Bonus points for wearing armor, and adding Int to your AC.

Dispelling Buffer - 9 PP. This kineticist power is great. It lasts 1 hour / level and adds +5 to the DC to dispel any effect on the subject; which can be manifested on everyone in the group. This is exceptionally good if you like being buffed, or you don't want people dispelling your party's buffs. With your theurge, it can help alleviate the CL differences when someone tries to dispel your stuff.

Minor Creation, Psionic - 1 PP. This shaper power is very powerful regardless of its level, simply because stuff like Black Lotus Extract is a plant-based item which you can create by the barrel if you want. Saturate arrows in the poisons and then use telekinesis to hurl them at your enemies. Alternatively, supply the party's rogue with more poison than he ever dreamed of. You GM may hate you for this one.

Fabricate, Psionic - 7 PP. It's a shaper's fabricate. That's probably all the description needed.

Ectoplasmic Cocoon - 5 PP. This shaper power can be used to remove enemies from combat, or possibly protect someone in a very dire situation. It offers a reflex save to negate, but it is exceptionally good against a wizard, druid, or cleric who is casting a spell (assuming you readied an action to interrupt them), as you can stop their spell and screw them over royally. It's a save-or-suck that targets reflex. Joy! :smallbiggrin:

Wizard Spells
The usuals stuff here...

Enlarge Person - 1st level. Go-go-gadget fighter buff!

Grease - 1st level. Same as the psionic equivalent. You just can't have enough grease, and at low levels you might only have a handful of slots / PP to spare; so this can help.

Silent Image - 1st level. Cast to create total concealment behind a giant illusory wall. Great for ambushes since you can have you allies repeatedly touching and testing against the wall's save DC until they can see through it as an illusion; allowing them to shoot and target through it without fail.

Reduce Person - 1st level. Go-go-gadget rogue buff! Actually, this spell is great for casters too (this means you). You get a +1 AC, +2 dex, +1 Atk rolls (touch attacks and rays!), and a +4 bonus on hide checks; which can be very useful. Rogues can enjoy it since most of their damage comes from sneak attack or gallons of black lotus extract (hint hint).

Resist Energy - 2nd level. This spell is too good to pass up. Get it as a 5/day wand (4,500gp) if at all possible, and love it. It is a wonderful defensive buff, and can fill in for energy conversion until you get it at high levels. Casting this prior to manifesting energy wall can allow your front-liners to move through your walls without fear.

Glitterdust - 2nd level. This spell is worth mentioning for utility and its blinding effects. Your save DCs may be hurting however, depending on when you get it.

Summon Swarm - 2nd level. This spell is one of my favorites since you can keep concentrating on it to keep the swarm around pretty much forever. Most enemies (especially at low levels) have difficulties fighting swarms, and thus this can turn the tide.

Web - 2nd level. This can be another super spell; but the requirement to attach it to two opposed points can limit its effectiveness. Still, when it works, it works wonders.

Invisibility - 2nd level. Can keep you out of trouble when your reserves are low, and your party's rogue will love you if you cast this on them.

Blur - 2nd level. Great buff spell, especially for fighters. Adds a 20% miss chance for 10 rounds / level. Solid protection.

Mirror Image - 2nd level. Blurr's big brother, and they stack. Annoy the hell out of your enemies with this spell; since when combined with spells like blur or a cloak of displacement, they have a 20% miss chance against the copies too.

Spectral Hand - 2nd level. Touch attacks become ranged. I'd take two if I could.

Bull's Strength - 2nd level. Great buff for warrior types. Effectively +2 to attack, +3 to damage (assuming a 2 handed weapon) for 1 hour / CL. The other ability score buffs (such as owl's wisdom) are great two.

Fox's Cunning - 2nd level. Cast this on yourself to get a +2 bonus to all your spell and power save DCs for 1 hour / CL. Worth mentioning.

Alter Self - 2nd level. Cast this and turn into a troglodyte for +6 natural armor and no drawbacks. Not much else to be said. Also makes for a great disguise. Pro-Tip: The +10 Disguise bonus from Disguise Self stacks with the +10 bonus from Alter Self; if you really want to fool somebody.

Stinking Cloud - 3rd level. Cast this to disrupt enemies horribly. Nauseated prevents taking standard actions, so it effectively prevents them from doing stuff worth doing. Also obscures vision. Great control spell. Also doesn't allow spell resistance.

Summon Monster III - 3rd level. You start getting nice monsters, like large fiendish centipedes, to share with your enemies. Also, grappling is good. If your opponent has already got an AoO, he might not have combat reflexes; and if he doesn't, then he just became the special on today's menu (grapple for the win).

Also, use it to summon Lantern Archons

Heroism - 3rd level. 10 minutes / level, grants +2 to all attacks, saves, and skill checks. Not a bad buff.

Tiny Hut - 3rd level. Out of combat it has great utility. Inside combat it's an instant total concealment for your group, while retaining the ability to shoot and cast spells from the inside. Very good spell.

Invisibility Sphere - 3rd level. This spell has obvious benefits, but if your party's cleric will prepare silence and cast it on the fighters with the clanky armor, you can smuggle entire parties through hostile territory with ease. If you're caught in the silence radius, manifest powers instead.

Ray of Exhaustion - 3rd level. This spell can royally destroy an opponent's chances of victory. Use on large easy to hit creatures like Ogres, Trolls, and so forth. Exhausted inflicts a -6 to strength, dex, you move at 1/2 speed, and cannot run or charge; thus sucking as a brute.

Vampiric Touch - 3rd level. If Vigor + Share Pain wasn't enough, temporary HP from multiple sources stack, using the most recent ones first. If you really, really, really need to be an HP sink for your party, use the vigor/psicrystal/share pain strategy above, except summon a monster and then coup de grace the monster with vampiric touch to acheive a stupid number of temporary HP. Now function as an HP battery for your friends. Alternatively, do the same except vampiric touch + spectral hand to recharge your temporary HP in combat. For bonus points, purchase a lesser metamagic rod of maximize and lay into your foes something fierce (while keeping your temporary HP pool very high).

Haste - 3rd level. You can buff your entire party with a single casting of this spell. +1 atk, +1 ac, +1 reflex, +30ft movement speed, and an extra attack per round. Get this.

Slow - 3rd level. While the opposite of haste has a saving throw to negate it, 1 subject / level targeting means you can get a lot of enemies, and its effects are crippling. Also a very good option.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability - 4th level. Defensive spell blocks all spells and powers of 3rd level or lower. Really hurts psionic characters based around augmenting lower level powers.

Stoneskin - 4th level. Defensive spell will make your fighter types dance with glee, as now they are likely enjoying DR 10, and splitting remaining damage with your temporary HP pool. Also good to cast on yourself.

Black Tentacles - 4th level. Too good to ignore. Even if your caster level isn't that good, the grapple checks are still nothing to ignore, and it makes for excellent battlefield control.

Solid Fog - 4th level. Possibly better than black tentacles since you're a cerebromancer, as it doesn't rely on caster level to own enemies. Shuts down movement hard, and can be fun if you surround it with an energy wall, or use the time to prep your fighters with buff spells. Also, screws up flying creatures very well.

Summon Monster IV - 4th level. It's good for bolstering your forces if outnumbered, and has some rather nasty creatures such as lions (pounce). Also, by summoning Lantern Archons, you can have them cast continual flame on objects as a Sp. Ability, negating the 100gp material cost of casting it yourself. Handy.

Greater Invisibility - 4th level. Your rogue will love you. In fact, everyone will love you.

Animate Dead - 4th level. You don't have to be a dread necromancer, or even a cleric to enjoy some undead goodness. Enemies become treasure with this spell; and it makes great meat shields (though I prefer skeletons, zombies can be decent if HP sinks are what you're after). They can even carry equipment and loot around, effectively paying for themselves.

Purchase oxen (20gp trade good) and animate them as skeletons; donate the meat to an orphanage or someone who could really use some decent food. As large herd animals, they use the stats for Bison in the MM, and can carry a lot of gear around. They're much better than animating the bodies of some pitiful humanoids.

Enervation - 4th level. It's a ray that eats 1d4 levels off an opponent. More specifically, it screws with spellcasting something fierce, and each negative level inflicts -1 to all atks, saves, skill checks, and -5 HP. It's a good one.

Polymorph - 4th level. This spell is amazing, good for casting on you, but even better cast on your party's fighter types. Turning your party's fighter into a Hydra while he's under the effects of haste means up to 15 heads, all attacking with a full BAB, and with access to any feat he has such as power attack, cleave, combat reflexes, etc. Barbarian hydras can rage. Paladin Hydras can enjoy smiting or whatever else Paladins do. The term "engine of destruction" doesn't do this justice.

Overland Flight - 5th level. You get access to this spell before your Psion half gets access to the power version some levels later. Good spell and keeps you flying for the whole working day.

Fabricate - 5th level. If you're not a shaper, then picking up this spell would be a great. See about combining it with other spells such as wall of stone and wall of iron for profits and creating castles or fortresses, or outfitting NPCs with it. Remember that you can take 10 on craft checks, and your high intelligence should allow you to meet virtually any craft DC needed for the particular craft.

Wall of Iron - 6th level. Great spell for battlefield control or annoying people. Lots of fun with fabricate. It costs 50gp in material components, but the iron created is real and is worth somewhere around 2500gp as a trade good. Good method for building a fortress; especially with combined with wall of stone.

Mass Bull's Strength - 6th level. Pretty much the same deal as the 2nd level version, only now you buff your entire party and all their summons, pets, and your animated dead minions. Pretty much applies to the other mass buffs.

Stone to Flesh - 6th level. Wall of Stone + Fabricate = Statues + Stone to Flesh = Corpses + Animate Dead = Minions. Now you don't have to rely on finding monsters to animate, as you can now create lifeless corpses to animate; which can be helpful for getting a few beefy corpses, rather than lots of weak ones. Again, great flanking buddies for your friends; or assisting them in grapples, bull rushes, disarms, trips, and so forth. Also good if your friends get petrified.

For bonus fun, combine with Flesh to Stone to turn enemies into stone, then use fabricate to shape them into something completely different; such as furniture. :smalltongue:

EENick
2010-06-28, 10:00 AM
The trick is to spend most of your time directly buffing your party and hanging back, and to only whip out your best spells after several players die and TPK looks imminent. (And even then, you can do things like cast Polymorph on the Fighter instead of yourself). Don't "rob" the other players of the opportunity to win the day, and don't whine about how you could have ended combat in one round with your cosmic powers if you wanted to, but you choose to let the peons wave around their pointy metal things so that they could have fun too. People hate that.

Yes I do believe you hi the nail on the head there.

@Ashiel: Whoa thanks for the detailed list there. Good ideas and great suggestion.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 10:28 AM
Out of curiosity, what are the other factors? I never question someone who says, "Yes I know this sucks, but I really want to use such and such ability and/or the fluff is exactly what I want and I don't like re-fluffing other classes." But there's really no compelling mechanic or story that I can think of behind a Psion/Wizard that couldn't be accomplished by a single class version of either.

I think a Telepath, Kineticist and Seer are far better at their respective jobs than the arcane versions (Enchanter, Evoker and Diviner) of same. Therefore, picking one of those and focusing the arcane side on handling summoning/illusions would be a very thematic combination.

Alternatively, Keld's suggestion - StP Erudite/Archivist/Psychic Theurge to pile on the spell lists could also be extremely interesting, though I'm not immediately aware of a way to reach multi-9s with that build. The closest I can get is Erudite 18/Archivist 16 via Legacy Champion. Maybe a bloodline?


Ardent is more like a cleric with domains you manifest from. I would read ardent very carefuly for the rules, becuse you may only take powers from your mantels, and you gain new mantels from ardent levels. You wouldn't gain any more mantels after you started another class or PRC, and that will sharply restrict the powers you can manifest. If you can find all the powers you need in two mantels go for it, otherwise don't.

As prevously linked, Pimp My Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) means you will find all the powers you need in 2-3 mantles.

And since 3 mantles represent 30 powers, you will more than fill your 21 powers known.

EENick
2010-06-28, 11:10 AM
I think a Telepath, Kineticist and Seer are far better at their respective jobs than the arcane versions (Enchanter, Evoker and Diviner) of same. Therefore, picking one of those and focusing the arcane side on handling summoning/illusions would be a very thematic combination.

Alternatively, Keld's suggestion - StP Erudite/Archivist/Psychic Theurge to pile on the spell lists could also be extremely interesting, though I'm not immediately aware of a way to reach multi-9s with that build. The closest I can get is Erudite 18/Archivist 16 via Legacy Champion. Maybe a bloodline?



As prevously linked, Pimp My Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) means you will find all the powers you need in 2-3 mantles.

And since 3 mantles represent 30 powers, you will more than fill your 21 powers known.

Hmmm those are some very tempting options. My plan is to wait a bit and see what some other people are working up. If we're shy on Healing then I'll go Psychic Thurge, likewise if we need a bit more support casting the Cerebremancer as I originally planned will the direction I go.

I do admite the ardent is tempting but not if the DM won't allow customize mantles which I haven't had a chance to ask about yet.

ErrantX
2010-06-28, 11:24 AM
While I personally love the interactions of arcane and psionic abilities, I find that Cerebremancer (not unlike most other theurges) falls flat in their abilities. Okay, so I get double spells, but nothing even flavorful or interesting to go with it. To that end, I made an arcane/psionic prc if you're into homebrew, my Magus of the Unseen Way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7268468). It takes cues from Ultimate Magus and allows for some transparency between spells and powers, as well as meta-options. Check it out if you're into/allowed to use homebrew.

-X

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 11:40 AM
While I personally love the interactions of arcane and psionic abilities, I find that Cerebremancer (not unlike most other theurges) falls flat in their abilities. Okay, so I get double spells, but nothing even flavorful or interesting to go with it.

To be fair, there's already a ton of synergy between spells and powers in general, so the psionic theurges can be forgiven for being light on the class feature side of things. Access to psionics enables a great deal of action abuse which can extend to your arcane side (e.g. Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Temporal Acceleration, Schism etc.), while several arcane spells provide benefits that your psionic side can make use of (Mental Pinnacle, Dweomer of Transference.)

This is part of why StP Erudites are so powerful - they get this synergy right out of the box, and unlike Cerebremancers can carry it all the way to 20.

EENick
2010-06-28, 11:58 AM
While I personally love the interactions of arcane and psionic abilities, I find that Cerebremancer (not unlike most other theurges) falls flat in their abilities. Okay, so I get double spells, but nothing even flavorful or interesting to go with it. To that end, I made an arcane/psionic prc if you're into homebrew, my Magus of the Unseen Way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7268468). It takes cues from Ultimate Magus and allows for some transparency between spells and powers, as well as meta-options. Check it out if you're into/allowed to use homebrew.

-X

I apreciate the thought but one of the reasons for taking the Cerebremancer was to actually somewhat reduce the over power factor of magic/powers. I fear your particular home brew is a little too good for what my GM had in mind.


To be fair, there's already a ton of synergy between spells and powers in general, so the psionic theurges can be forgiven for being light on the class feature side of things. Access to psionics enables a great deal of action abuse which can extend to your arcane side (e.g. Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Temporal Acceleration, Schism etc.), while several arcane spells provide benefits that your psionic side can make use of (Mental Pinnacle, Dweomer of Transference.)

This is part of why StP Erudites are so powerful - they get this synergy right out of the box, and unlike Cerebremancers can carry it all the way to 20.

Erudites are a very interesting class. I really wish they had made them a core class rather then an exotic variant on an already exotic class.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 01:28 PM
Erudites are a very interesting class. I really wish they had made them a core class rather then an exotic variant on an already exotic class.

Well, they couldn't be core, because psionics itself isn't core. (At least, not until 4e.)

However, both Erudites (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406a) (and the StP Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) of said variant) are available free online, so there's no reason not to at least give them a try.

In addition, they do not carry the standard clause of "if you use this variant, it should replace the standard class completely." For instance, both Erudites and Psions exist side-by-side in Faerun. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070711) So if you want to be an Erudite while your friends want to be Psions, there is again no reason not to do so. (And considering that your head would become a power library for the others, there are great benefits to be had.)

EENick
2010-06-29, 08:16 AM
Well, they couldn't be core, because psionics itself isn't core. (At least, not until 4e.)

However, both Erudites (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406a) (and the StP Variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) of said variant) are available free online, so there's no reason not to at least give them a try.

In addition, they do not carry the standard clause of "if you use this variant, it should replace the standard class completely." For instance, both Erudites and Psions exist side-by-side in Faerun. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070711) So if you want to be an Erudite while your friends want to be Psions, there is again no reason not to do so. (And considering that your head would become a power library for the others, there are great benefits to be had.)

True I'm just a bit sad that almost every handbook ever has stuff for druids, monks, fighters etc. etc. just because they got printed in core and a great class like the Ardent can only get home brewed love 'cause so little material was created for them or psionics in general.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 08:29 AM
True I'm just a bit sad that almost every handbook ever has stuff for druids, monks, fighters etc. etc. just because they got printed in core and a great class like the Ardent can only get home brewed love 'cause so little material was created for them or psionics in general.

I understand what you're saying, but it really isn't that bad. :smallsmile:

Ardent got all the love it could possibly need in a single article. You have RAW license to give it any psionic power in the game so long as they fit a theme of your choosing - that's huge.

And then, they made Dominant Ideal :smalleek: With those, Ardents are easily Tier 2.

But if the lack of love for psionics has you down, don't fret - as I said earlier, there's great third party material for psionics out there written by brilliant minds who share your passion. Dreamscarred Press wrote tons of psionic material, and they have their own SRD. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) Hyperconscious (written by Bruce Cordell himself) has great PrCs and powers of its own, and fits in seamlessly with the DSP and WotC material.

Also, the Eberron books have really nice stuff, and they tend to be overlooked because they are setting-specific. For example, Secrets of Sarlona converts no less than 33 core spells into psionic powers, including gems like Unseen Servant, Floating Disk and Prestidigitation.

Among all of those, psionics has almost everything it needs to keep pace with magic.

EENick
2010-06-29, 09:29 AM
I understand what you're saying, but it really isn't that bad. :smallsmile:

Ardent got all the love it could possibly need in a single article. You have RAW license to give it any psionic power in the game so long as they fit a theme of your choosing - that's huge.

And then, they made Dominant Ideal :smalleek: With those, Ardents are easily Tier 2.

But if the lack of love for psionics has you down, don't fret - as I said earlier, there's great third party material for psionics out there written by brilliant minds who share your passion. Dreamscarred Press wrote tons of psionic material, and they have their own SRD. (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) Hyperconscious (written by Bruce Cordell himself) has great PrCs and powers of its own, and fits in seamlessly with the DSP and WotC material.

Also, the Eberron books have really nice stuff, and they tend to be overlooked because they are setting-specific. For example, Secrets of Sarlona converts no less than 33 core spells into psionic powers, including gems like Unseen Servant, Floating Disk and Prestidigitation.

Among all of those, psionics has almost everything it needs to keep pace with magic.

Bruce Cordell eh? I'll have to look into that. Thanks again.