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Human Paragon 3
2010-06-25, 03:00 PM
Hi guys. I am working on a Burn Notice RPG based on Burning Wheel (specifically Mouse Guard). I'm looking for advice on skills and Training (analogous to Mouse Guard's Nature and general ideas about how to run the system.

Here are my design notes so far:

A conversation between a friend and myself where I explain the system:


This will be replaced with a much clearer explanation soon.

What you should get out of this:

Training: Like Nature in Mouse Guard, but there are many types, each with a different set of 4 situations attached to it.

Wits: Will in Mouse Guard

Conditioning: Training in Mouse Guard


For skills, see next section.

me:

the central mechanic of the game is a basic skill challenge, rolling a
number of six siders against a target number or in a versus test. 4-6 is success

Kevin: But you're not talking about a D&D 4e skill challenge right?

me: no, it's more like rolling a skill check. so if the Obstacle (Ob) (like DC) is 4, you would need to roll 4 successes. if your skill is 4, you get to roll 4 dice. so to succeed on that check, you would need all of your dice to succeed, which is pretty unlikely [ED, actually not possible to succeed there without help!]

in a versus test, it's a roll-off. so if you and I were arguing, I would roll my persuasion vs. your persuasion to try to bring the other guy around. or a third party. more successes wins

it's more nuanced than that, but this is the main mechanic for the game
so your skills are basically everything to you. fighting and marksmanship are skills just like any other

in a fight, you roll your fighting skill etc. (the combat system for big fights is a lot more in depth than just a roll off, however)

with me so far?

Kevin: Yes

me: k. your have three attributes, apart from your skills

Wits, Conditioning and Training

Wits is like Int/Wis/Cha. Conditioning is like Str/Dex/Con

You test them when there's no appropriate skill to test, or in basic tests of wits and conditioning (running, climbing, etc)

Training is really really important

It's sort of your skill identity. It represents a big part of your background and capabilities

so yours would be Confidence Man

if you're a really great confidence man, who depends on his training to get by, you will have a high rating in this

If you're a so-so confidence man, but more well rounded in other ways, you will have a lower rating

Each Training set has 4 "gimme skills" associated with it

Looking at confidence man, they're Persuasion, Fraud, Deception and Sleight of Hand, so whenever you make a test for one of these skills, you use your Training score

now, If you wanted to make a computer hacking test, you'd use your computer hacking skill, which is separate--it doesn't involve your training

However, you can "go against your training"

which is to say, use your training score on a skill not associated with it

So, today you really, really need to hack a computer. You say, OK, I know a little about computers, a computer is like anything else and can be conned"

you use your Training in place of the computer hacking skill. If you succeed, good job.

If you fail, your training is taxed. it temporarily goes down by one. you're forgetting your training, learning not to rely on it so much or whatever

Additionally, you can spend points that you earn throughout the game to add your training to skill rolls, called Tapping your Training

so if you really needed to, you could make a persuasion check, and add your training, effectively getting your training to the roll twice

but this costs a resource, and if you do it on a non-training-related skill, you risk significantly degrading your training

any questions?

Kevin: Significantly, as in more than the normal one point?

me: Up to all of it, depending on bad you **** up

You degrade it by the margin of failure, so if the obstacle was 10, and you tapped your training on a non-trained skill, and rolled 5 successes, you would degrade your training by 5

it's a powerful maneuver, but if you do it, make sure you know what you're doing

Kevin: Can multiple people contribute successes against the same Ob?

me: yes, via teamwork. anyone can help anyone with anything

Kevin: Even throwing a punch?

me: sure

lemme explain

ok, say you're trying to knock a dude out in one punch (your example)

You would make a fighting test vs. his conditioning, normally

Let's say I'm worried you won't be able to do it
I say "I'll help. I'll use my deceiver skill to distract him. When he
makes eye contact with me, you punch him in the temple."

if everyone agrees this would probably work, I hand you ONE die and you add it to your roll

There are several other ways to increase your die pool

You can boost it with a trait, by using one of your wises (special knowledge skills) by having the exact right tool for the job (brass knuckles, for example) or by spending points that you've previously earned.

you can also purposely hinder yourself: "I feel bad about sucker punching this guy. I think my compassionate trait will hurt me here. I get -1d"

by using your traits to make life harder for yourself, you earn checks that you can use later

by complicating things for yourself, you get more agency later when the initiative is in your hand

each session (episode) is broken into A Story scenes and B Story Scenes

during the A Story, the GM challenges the players with obstacles

during the B Story, the players rest up, investigiate their subplots, make plans etc.

but during those scenes, it costs you "checks" to do stuff. you earn checks during the A story scenes by making life harder on yourself via traits

savvy?

Kevin: This latter bit being a mechanic devised by you?

me: actually, no. altered.

in mouse guard, there's GM's Turn and Players' Turn. each lasts about two hours, but I think it's better to have more of them, shorter, alternated, to simulate the show


Kevin: So, you can't, say, have three players all roll their lock picking skill
against a locked door, and add all their successes together?

(To pick a very borderline case)

me: no

Kevin: How about if they all rolled their conditioning simultaneously to try to break down the door?

me: one guy runs point. the rest help

Kevin: And they can only give one dice

me: yes. one die is a lot in this game, though

Kevin: So you said you can add dice for Wises and traits to the skill rolls, but you intimated there was more to it than just adding the numbers together?

me: anything you do to improve your roll improves it by one die

Kevin: So it doesn't matter how wise or witty you are, just one dice.

me: so if you use a trait, a wise, two instances of teamwork and one fate point, you would add 5

yes, that's right. your wits and training can be used to break ties though, so if you're wittier, you're more likely to succeed

let's say you're lock picking, and the lock obstacle is 4, and your infiltration is 4 you need 4 successes, pretty tough [ED, again, this is wrong, you need 5 successes]

so you get some help, get special lock picks, spend a point and use your "focused" trait to add 4 to your roll. you get to roll 8 dice at the problem

now let's say statistics bare out and you got exactly 4 successes. that's a tie
now you have a few options:

1. You can spend a point to get another die or rerroll something to try and break the tie

2. You can use a trait to break the tie in the gm's favor

3. I would say that this is a physical challenge, since you're physically opening the lock, so you could roll your conditioning

Kevin: Wait, I think you need to explain traits better. Also, you need to roll one more than the ob?

me: yes. you need to beat the ob

Kevin: You said if you rolled 4 successes against the Ob 4 you'd be fine

But anyway

me: no, that's a tie

Kevin: Explain traits

me: ok, traits are pretty loosey goosey. they are one part role playing cue, one part bonus giver, one part monkey wrench. every trait is mechanically the same. they all do the same thing. they just can be used at different times. it's up to you and the group to decide when it's appropriate to use it

Traits have two main uses

First, when appropriate, they can help you in a test

A level 1 trait is usable once per session to give you an extra die roll

so, you could say "I use my focused trait to add a die to my lock picking check"

Kevin: Level 1

?

me: during character creation you selected it once

a level 2 trait is the same, but you can use it an unlimited amount of times

a level 3 trait does all that, plus once per session, after you roll you can re-roll all the squibs (failures)

so that's how you help yourself with traits

you can also hinder yourself with traits, and in this capacity, they're also all the same

you can either use a trait to break a tie in your opponent's favor, use it to hinder yourself (-1 die to a roll) or to help your opponent (+2d to his roll)

hindering yourself gives you one check.

tie breaking or helping an opponent gives you two checks

you spend checks later to make tests during B Story scenes


so those are the basics of how the game works

big fight scenes have a more complex system

and your margin of success or margin of failure on tests have implications

with a major scene (it could be a fight, a stand off, a chase, an argument
or whatever) instead of just making a test, you script out three actions in advance. then you reveal your actions and your opponents actions at the same time, one by one, and depending on what action you selected there are
different effects

so it's about guessing what your opponent will do as well as choosing the best way to attack

Kevin: But wait... What if his actions 1 and 2 make your action 3 (for example) something you no longer want to do? Do you still have to? Is the thinking that things are going too fast to change course?

me: yeah, more or less.

Kevin: For example, say your step 3 was "Shoot him" and his step 2 was to say, "Wait, I have information on your daughter!"

me: well, once you're fighting, you're fighting. maybe his wait wait i have your daughter was a feint or a defensive move, which could actually save him even if you do decide to shoot at him

Kevin: But the point is, I can't like, just not perform that action?

me: no, if you choose attack, you have to attack

Kevin: Even if I don't think my character would given the new situation?

me: it's easy enough to say that you shot before you heard him

Kevin: Sure.

me: these things are happening fast

it's really focusing in on every single blow, or movement. and you can change your description of the actions

the action you write down would be "Attack"

Kevin: I was thinking more if like, action 1 was stall him (so an ally can do
whatever), action 2 threaten him with gun, Action 3 shoot him.

me: that would be Maneuver/Defend/Attack. then it's up to you do describe those actions in context. the attack could be a pistol whip, or you could shoot him in the face

In this game, compared with D&D for example, you give up a little bit of agency over your character in exchange for a great deal more agency over the world at large

Sometimes you have to follow actions you scripted. Other times, like when you fail a check, the DM gets to describe your characters action, how and why you failed-- what you did wrong

in return, you get to make up NPCs, add facts to the world with your wises, make people see things your way and do what you want etc.

Kevin: So there's a set list of actions that are allowed in these combats?

me: yes, there are 4 types, but they're so broad they can represent a variety of actions. the actions are Attack, Defend, Feint, and Maneuver.... though I wouldn't be opposed to adding more action types

The interactions between them are fairly deep though, with 16 possible combination

me: Burning Wheel, the system Mouse Guard is based on, has a much more
complicated combat system (cause it is a fantasy RPing game)

Kevin: Now, what's all the business with Beliefs? And Instincts?

me: ah. beliefs are a guiding principle you make up for your character, about how they view the world, or what they're doing. it should be broad, but not too broad

for instance, "America is the greatest country in the world" is a little
too broad, cause it doesn't influence your behavior much

"Others must know that America is the greatest country in the world" would be better, cause it indicates a behavior on your part

it's like your creed

you get rewarded for following your belief, and it's the GMs job to challenge the belief

instincts are what your character does without thinking. you get rewarded for following your instincts, and they are great RPing cues. You can also point to them to have had your character retroactively do stuff sometimes

They're phrased like this "I always perform action X under condition Y"

always/never whatever

so one might be "When threatened, I draw my gun."

Then later when bad guys step up to you, bam. "I draw my gun!"

You get rewarded for following this instinct. it can get you into trouble, though. and it's the GMs job to put you into situations where your instinct kicks in, good or bad

you don't have to follow your instincts. you can suppress them

you also have goals and you get rewarded for perusing and completing them. i'll probably have a Season Goal that arches multiple sessions and an Episode Goal which you try to complete by the end of the session

me: making sense now?

Kevin: I think so, more or less. And from what I read in that description, failure more swerves the plot than anything else?

me: yeah. it often adds in complications that are made up on the spot, which reminds me of burn notice. like, you break into the office building, but it turns out that they had a suspiciously over-compensating security system. or you're intimidating some thug, when the assassin from two episodes shows up and starts shooting at you

alternatively, in do-or-die situations, you could succeed, but take on a condition, (injured, angry, compromised) that will hurt you for the rest of the
episode, or until you can rest up or bounce back from it


Skills and Traits:


SKILLS


Fighting

How good a scrapper are you? Fighting measures your hand-to-hand combat abilities whether with a knife, baseball bat, bottle, or kung fu. Often a versus test.

Marksmanship

Your ability to reliably and accurately fire and aim a firearm even under pressure. Often a versus test.

Pilot

The pilot skill is used to fly all manor of aircraft.

Factors:
Craft
Commercial or Private Plane, Fighter Jet, Helicopter or Exotic Craft
Task
Safely Fly, Evasive Maneuvers, Perform Stunt

Precision Driving

Anyone can drive, but precision driving measures your ability to achieve specific goals behind the wheel, pulling of stunts, ending car chases, hitting a moving target with a vehicle etc. In a chase, this can also be a versus test, and is the main attack skill for car chases.

Factors:

Vehicle Type
Performance Vehicle, Well Kept Vehicle, Beater
Maneuver
Escape or Give Chase, Disable Another Driver, Negotiate High Speed Collision Against Moving Target

Deception

Hiding the truth through your words and body language, or making what is false seem true. Includes intimidation. Often used for feints and maneuvers in arguments.

Negotiation

Achieving goals, either for yourself or on behalf of somebody else, through discussions and compromises where each side gives up something they want in exchange for something else they want. The best negotiators give up little to gain a lot, and leave both sides feeling like they "won" the engagement. Also used for haggling. Can be used to maneuver in arguments, or to perform any action in a true negotiation.

Persuasion

Getting others to see things your way through earnest and passionate arguments, appealing to reason and/or emotion. You don't hide the truth or obscure your goals. You rely on the power of your words and the correctness of your arguments. The main attack and defense skill for arguments. Can also be used to make inspiring speeches.

Surveillance

This skill lets you case an area or observe person without being noticed. It encompasses knowledge of surveillance technology as well as knowing what to look for on a stake out. Occasionally it can be a versus test.

Factors:

Task
Monitor Device, Set Up Device, Jury Rig Device
Location
Area Highly Visible, Area Obscured, Area Secured
Target
Careful Person, Security Pro

Computers

This skill accounts for knowledge and practical experience with computers beyond that of the basic user. It lets you build, program and secure computers and gives you the knowledge of how they operate.

Programming Factors

Program
Simple Program, Complex Program, Immense Program
Vulnerabilities
Few Vulnerabilities, Built-In Vulnerabilities, No Vulnerabilities
Time Factor
One Week, One Day, One Hour

Building factors
Computer
Basic, Custom Tailored, Super Computer


Handyman

The Handyman skill lets you perform basic carpentry, plumbing, electric work and auto-mechanic work. You can fix or sabotage most common objects.

Factors
Maintenance
Maintain, Build
Demolish
Destroy, Cleverly Sabotage
Item
Tool, Structure, Vehicle



Counter Intelligence

People trained in counter intelligence are experts at preventing enemy agents from gathering info about them or their organization. They are spy hunters. Whether it's noticing something funny about the way a person behaves, detecting bugs on your phone line, or scouting out vulnerabilities in your own network, counter-intelligence is your agency's shield against infiltrators.

This also gives you the ability to guess what training others have received. This is an independent test at ob 3, unless the person is under cover, in which case it is a verses test against deceiver.


Factors:

Task
Find Spying Devices, Detect Vulnerability, Predict Mode of Attack
Threat
Civilian, military/para, top secret


Medic

You can heal wounds in others. Performing first aid in the field can heal minor wounds and is an independent test at ob 3. Performing surgery or treating a major wound is tested at ob 5 in the field and ob 3 at a hospital.

Tactics

This skill is used for planning battles, organizing withdrawals, determining whether pursuit of an enemy is wise, picking a place to have a fight, and maneuvering on the battle field.

In addition, there is a special use of the tactics skill: predicting opposing tactics and/or trapping your opponent into using specific tactics in battle, which you can then be better prepared for. To use this ability, you make a prediction about how your opponent will act (or describe how you will force your opponent to act in a specific way) and make a tactics test against base ob 6. The obstacle should be adjusted depending on how much information you have on the opposing force. If you succeed in your test, the opposing force acts just as you described. This gives you certain advantages in planning your own tactics, but does not guarantee victory.

If you fail your check, the enemy's tactics differ from what you surmised, perhaps a little, or perhaps radically, depending on the margin of failure.

Demolition (bomb making)

Building and diffusing bombs. Knowledge of bomb making methods and materials. Building specific bombs for specific jobs, safely.

Building or Diffusing a Bomb Factors:

Explosive Type
Gunpowder and Gasoline, C4 or Plastique, Exotic (ex. liquid chemical combination)
Detonator
Triggered By You Directly, Timed or Triggered By Target, Triggered By You Remotely
Special
Shaped Blast, Difficult to Diffuse, Designed To Explode If Diffused

Infiltration

Breaking and entering, remaining undetected, bypassing security. This is the primary attack skill for a break in conflict. Usually an independent test, but sometimes versus a security system's sophistication rating.

Lock Picking Factors

Lock Type
Wrack and Pinion, Dead Bolt, Electronic
Lock Quality
Normal, Superior, Incredible

Security Bypass

Security Level
Start counting at 3
Normal, Hi-Tech, Top Secret



Stealth

The art of being unseen. Usually a versus test. Hide, become invisible, sneak up on a target, tail somebody without being noticed. The main defense skill in a break-in conflict. Simply hiding behind cover and not being noticed is an ob 3 independent test. It becomes a versus test when somebody starts looking for you.

Fraud

You know how to create fake documents, run scams, and appear in all ways authentic. This includes knowing how to detect such treachery. Passing of a stolen car as legal, making a gun look like it belongs to somebody else, forging a check or passport, creating documents for a fake identity are all fraud.

Factors:

Task
Clean, Forge
Document
Non-Official Document, Picture ID, Passport
Item
Simple Object, Art Object, Pass Key, Super-Secure Pass Key
Quality
Passable, Good, Perfect


Hacker

Hackers are able to use their knowledge of computers to steal, alter, or destroy the information held within. Also includes re-purposing an electronic item for a use foreign to its design.

Computer Hacking Factors:

Task
Destroy Data, Steal Data, Alter Data
Security
Well Known Vulnerabilities, Few Known Vulnerabilities, No Known Vulnerabilities

Electronics Hacking Factors:
Security
Unsecured, Secure
Connectivity
Wireless, Land Line
Use
Close to Normal Function, Same Branch of Technology, Completely Different Function


Sniper

Being able to hit a target at extreme distances in adverse conditions. Picking out a good place for a sniper perch. A successful sniper test against an unaware target kills the target, or incapacitates him, if that was the sniper's goal.

Factors

Target
Larger than man-sized, Man-sized, smaller than man-sized, Tiny
Distance
Optimal, Long, Extreme


Sleight of Hand

Stealing a small object without being seen, swapping a genuine object for a mock up, or planting a small object on another person are all examples of sleight of hand. Hiding an object on your person is also covered by this skill.

Factors

Object (size)
Pen, Hand Gun, Suit Case
Task
Steal, Plant, Hide on Person

Field Chemist

This skill is a special variation on the "resources" skill. It is used when the item you need to find or make is a chemical and you don't have time to make a resources test. You can make a field chemist test any time, impromptu, at the GM's discretion. You describe what you're looking for or making, and how you go about finding or making it, then make the test. If you succeed, you are able to create the effect you were after, adding the item to your equipment, etc. Ignore the Scarcity factor if a specific item has previously been established as present.

Factors:

Scarcity
Common, Hard to Find, Need special licensing to obtain
Biological Effect
Poison, Medicinal
Chemical Effect
Corrosive, Explosive, Transformational

Hobby (any)

This represents a specific hobby-type skill. In general, simply practicing your hobby is an ob1 test, but if you're trying to do something exceptional or use these factors:

Factors:
Quality
Good, Exceptional, Masterwork
Materials or Tools
Easy to work with, Difficult to work with, highly delicate

Additionally, any hobby skill can be used exactly like a wise that pertains only to that hobby.






TRAITS


Leader

Bodyguard

Interrogator

Martial Artist (Style)

Linguist (Also gives bonus languages)

Fearful

Thorough

Bold

Loose Cannon

Layed Back

Fiery Temper

Calculating

Cunning

Paranoid

Compassionate

Noble

Honorable

Loyal

Deep Cover

Gear Head

Code Jockey

Firebug

Grizzled

Wise

Immature

Disciplined

Patient

Detail-Oriented

Big Thinker

Thug

Extrovert

Caffinated

Alcaholic

Guarded

Educated

Clever

Athletic

Scarred

Cultured

Polite

Outdoorsman

Religious

Flirtateous

Thrifty

Optimistic

Cynical

Gambler

Ruthless



Trainings Redux:


Intelligence Agent
Gathering intel, building assets, maintaining cover ID, sharing information

Special Forces
Assassinating, Sabotaging, Coordinating, Interrogating

Professional Thief
Stealing, Hiding, Searching, Forging

Bomb Squad
Threat Assessment, Munitions Handling, Building, Coordinating

Confidence Man
Maintaining Cover, Tricking, Planning, People Reading

Academic
Researching, Planning, Debating, Teaching

Cyber Crimes Officer
Gathering Intel, Hacking, Troubleshooting, Programming

Counter Terrorism
Negotiating, Protecting, Threat Assessment, Coordination

Think Tanker
Predicting, Planning, Threat Assessment, Debating

Military Officer
Planning, Protecting, Coordinating, Commanding

CSI
Searching, Researching, Forensics, Sharing Information

Doctor
Healing, Comforting, Analyzing, Medicating

Engineer
Building, Designing, Sharing Information, Gathering Materials

Terrorist
Planning, People-Reading, Handling Munitions, Coordinating

Detective
People-reading, Questioning, Searching, Analyzing

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-06-25, 03:21 PM
Hurts my eyes and brain to read, put in some spoiler tags and bolds before I comment.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-25, 03:31 PM
OK, I cleaned up the training/skills/traits sections. Probably should have started with that. I'll get to the conversation later.

EDIT: Cleaned up the chat as well.

Totally Guy
2010-06-26, 02:51 AM
I take it you've now read Mouse Guard.

Just reading it through I think there may be a couple of things you've not understood.

The basic obstacle for an independent can't be a tie. Ob 4 test with three successes is a failure, with 4 successes it's passed. It's vs. test that can tie.

You also say that the fighting skill is nearly always vs. But in a fight conflict it might be independent half the time. Attack vs Attack for example is two independent tests.

Lastly level 3 trait's don't lend another die each time. They are only for rerolling failures.


Your biggest shift to the existing rules is probably the Nature->Training rules. Thematically the guard mouse's nature goes against his responsibilities, through acting in missions they become less mouse-like. You've changed that to a core of skills that is the character's area of expertise. There are very few ways to undo the tax and even they are slightly meta. You could end up with your agents becoming useless at what they wanted to do in game. Notice how the Nature words -Hiding, Escaping, Climbing and Foraging- don't correspond to in game skills. You can't have a skill for climbing as that would undermine nature.

So you've got Intel as a skill but also Intel as something CSIs can do. How does that work? Lets say Mr CSI gets taxed down but Mr Bomb Squad has Intel as a Skill. You've got this situation Mr CSI will end up mostly trying to help the Bomb Squad guy. The CSI player would protest that he should have it as a skill too as that was his character concept. But then if you do that his "Training" rating is obsolete so he should game the system tax himself to 1 so he can learn actual skills faster.

But because you've got so many Trainings then there are a lot of things that you have been forced to make into both a skill and a training. Which I don't think will work so well after tax.

I don't think you realise what a tough decision the B Story is. It's about whether to heal or whether to pursue that other goal. Or do both if you've got the checks. The turn structure give the conditions some teeth. You can't just stop and get rid of them.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-28, 01:03 PM
Hey Glug! Thanks for the help. Your closer reading of the rules was really helpful. I do have the book, but as you surmised there are a few things I missed. Changing from skills to situations on the trainings make it even better than what I had planned, and I'm already working on new trainings.

Example:

Intelligence Agent
Gathering intel, building assets, maintaining cover ID, sharing information

This looks better to me. What do you think?

Given the above, I might get rid of "intel" as a skill altogether and make people use surveillance, scouting and circles tests instead, depending on how they're trying to get the intelligence.

As for A Story/B Story, I actually have thought this through. The format that I am using is actually a suggested variant in the GM Turn/Player Turn section of the book for "longer missions." Since these missions will be ongoing, I think it will work fine. I plan on giving more opportunities to rest, but more tests that the players will want to make during their turn. I am confident it will work out.


I have a question about mouse guard combat that I was hoping you could answer for me.

It says that if you choose Feint when your opponent chooses attack, you can neither attack or defend. Does that mean that you don't roll the feint? If so, why didn't they just say so? That's what it says for defend vs. feint, after all.

Totally Guy
2010-06-28, 01:21 PM
I have a question about mouse guard combat that I was hoping you could answer for me.

It says that if you choose Feint when your opponent chooses attack, you can neither attack or defend. Does that mean that you don't roll the feint? If so, why didn't they just say so? That's what it says for defend vs. feint, after all.

Why didn't they just say so? That left me scratching my head too for a while.

Basically Feint always loses to Attack. The Attacker rolls and the Feinter does nothing.

It works well when you consider tactics and how it encourages you roleplay out certain moves.

Your Trainings changing to situational (slightly more passive) reactions are definitely an improvement. It might be hard to think of enough of them. It's almost like Fight or Flight or "How was I trained to get out of this one?"

Edit: Have you checked out Realm Guard (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?8094-Realm-Guard-Rangers-of-the-North-(v1-5)&highlight=realm+guard)? *I haven't...*

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-28, 01:24 PM
It is difficult coming up with them all. I have a fair list going, however. I'm wondering if it shouldn't be busted down to three situations instead of four, since the situations you've been trained for are more useful than the situations mice have in their nature. Gathering intel vs. foraging?

EDIT: No, I haven't seen Realm Guard. What is it, retrofitting Mouse Guard to high fantasy?

EDIT EDIT: I was also thinking of letting the Tactics skill mirror Weather Watcher, by which I mean if the player beats a high Ob test, he can predict or trap opponents into using specific tactics, which the group will then be ready to counter. Thoughts?

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-28, 01:57 PM
New trainings are up.

Totally Guy
2010-06-30, 01:15 AM
Here's a thread that discusses your main issue. Here. (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?9501-BW-strengths-weaknesses-vs-MG)

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-30, 09:20 AM
Reading that, I am convinced a mouse guard hack is the way to go. Burn Notice (the show) is HIGHLY mission-based, with heroes that can do anything the situation calls for because of their special training (mouse guard's nature). Nature vs. Duty becomes Training vs. Gut. There is always the urge to go against your training to do what's right (or what's most profitable), but by doing so, you risk forgetting and disregarding what you've been taught. On the other hand, if you follow your training too rigidly, you cease to be a person and become an instrument.

The episodes of burn notice are broken down into an A Story (that dominates the episode) and a B Story (that arcs from episode to episode and tells a story over the entire season). During the A story, the characters are given a mission that they must complete, usually to help somebody in need, just like the GM's turn in Mouse Guard. During the B Story, they pursue their individual goals, just like the Player's Turn. Additionally, they meet up, make plans and nurse wounds, just like in the Player's Turn.

I think MG is a great fit for BN, an I feel like the system I have designed will work when it's done. I have the character generation system done, too, and will be posting it soon.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-06-30, 09:56 AM
EDIT: No, I haven't seen Realm Guard. What is it, retrofitting Mouse Guard to high fantasy?

The Rangers from Lord of the Rings. It's pretty cool.

I love the idea of Mouse Guard as a system for this, but I agree on the Trainings. The dynamic tension of Nature is that it goes against the duty of the Guard. You have to pick between them. Nature and adventure should be in constant conflict. So don't think of Trainings (if they even stay like that) as a "job" that the characters have, unless it conflicts with their adventuring. Think of them as those natural requirements/instincts, like civilianhood, that get in the way.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-30, 10:07 AM
Yes, I see that. In this regard, I think the only smart move is to shy away from MG. This is not a direct hack. The purpose of Nature in mouse guard is different from the purpose of Training in Burn Notice.

In Burn Notice, the purpose of training isn't to make the players angst over performing their duty. It's to let the players do extraordinary things in the line of duty.

For example, in one episode of Burn Notice, Michael Westen (the main character) poses as as safe cracker to join up with a criminal's crew that he's trying to bring down. He brushes up a little on safe cracking before he meets with the bad guy, but he's an intelligence agent, not a safe cracker. The audience has never seen him crack a safe.

So he meets with the bad guy, and, surprise, the boss man tests him by making him crack a convenient store safe. First, he argues, makes excuses etc, but then the bad guy threatens the life of somebody Michael is trying to help. If he can't crack the safe, his cover will be blown.

So he cracks the safe.

In game terms, looking at the Intelligence Agent training, one of the listed circumstances is "maintaining a cover ID." So Michael can use his training to crack the safe at no cost.

Later he has to crack another safe, but this time he's not maintaining cover, so if he uses his training here, he risks losing a bit of it, as he starts to forget it and learn not to rely upon it as much. This would make him more well rounded and receptive to new skills, but worse at the things he has been trained to do.

NOTE: I think I should explain a little further. The characters of Burn Notice are larger than life. They are not meek or simple people who are overcoming their fears to achieve something bigger than themselves. They are crack experts, hardened by life in the field, who are up to just about any challenge. The difficulty comes when they go up against dangerous people that only they are equipped to deal with. They help people whose natures are mouse-like. Their natures are more like tigers.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-01, 03:33 PM
I have finished the skill list. Comments are welcome. Do you think I missed anything important? Anything confusing?