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Caxton
2010-06-25, 05:45 PM
I've done research into D20 systems for Warhammer 40k and found a rather disappointing field. However, I have seen alot of good 40k related stuff in this forum. I would like to start and help with a new project to finally make these two great games come together. If anyone has something to contribute, or something already made that they are willing to add to this world, please let me know!

I will probably start on this myself for awhile, and will post some new homebrew in the next few days. However, I find myself in need of general advice on this matter, as I'm a little inexperienced homebrewing D20. Any aid of any kind will be greatly appreciated.

Corporate M
2010-06-25, 10:38 PM
Well, cultists are easy enough. Tzeetch, Nurgle, Slaanish, and Khorne are like greater deities whom chaos cultists worship. Chaos cultists would kind of be like clerics, only their spells and abilities rest upon which chaos deity they're worshipping.

For example, I'm an avid fan of Nurgle. Nurgle's everything I'd want in a deity. He promotes pestilance, disease, and biological terror. So his clerics would use poison weapons, and spells like cloudkill and contagion. They would also have some dread necromancer qualities as they progressively become more like undead. So Libris Mortis comes in handy with all sorts of undead creatures. I personally would want to be the kind of worshipper who has huge boils growing out in clearly visible places. That way when somebody attacks me, the boils burst and releases swarms of hornets and acid puss gets everywhere. This is considered the most basic stuff in Nurgle's arsenal. And if you think that's bad, he's one of the "better" chaos deities who's all about making his worshippers a tightly gnit family. Can you imagine if Orcus was a main character on Full House?

Tzeetch is basically Asmodeus by another name. He's always one step ahead, he's always undermining everybody else and at the top, and everyone always talks smack about him yet won't lift a finger against him. They're too afraid too. Asmodeous more then any of the other chaos gods is about pure spellcasting. So he'd get the best spells. The utility ones...

Khorne is a war god. Self buffs are pretty common amongst clerics, what isn't common is a complete disregard for one's fallen allies. Khorne isn't the god you want to worship if you want job security... He's been known to kill his own suboordinates in fits of rage. His worshippers are something like frenzied beserkers. Ironically, Khrone despises magic, and it is forbidden for his worshippers to use it. Because apparently it makes you a sissy.

Slaanish is just all about drugs, sex, and passive aggressive bullcrap. I immagine if you really want to capture the essence of Slaanish you'll need to consult book of vile darkness for some idea of wear to go with spells, addiction, perversions, etc.



And that's just the chaos gods. Orks are essentially plant based creatures that when they "bleed", they pollenate, and then there's more of them to deal with. They're chaotic stupid and live only for the "fun" of battle. And though you'd think Khorne would control them, they can't be controlled. They have their own quantamn psychic hive mind that basically grants them immunity to chaos god's suggestions... So they're psionic and have spell resistance ontop of everything else...

There's the eldar. Pretty much what you'd expect of elves. They think they're so great, and maybe at one time they were. But now they're a joke. Eldar are to be played kind of like psionic paladins. They can predict the future, and have a deep fear of falling to the warp. (Imagine if the elemental plane of negative energy was all the elemental plane of dirty thoughts, fiends, and entropy where anything and everything can happen...)

The Tau. My most despised faction... The Tau are like some Zeitgesit crap. This ultra collectivist bunch of stromtroopers who probably would use auras like marshals/dragon shamans to powerup eachother. It's the reverse ninja law. The more tau are in a room, the more screwed you are... Inorder to get inside the mindset of the tau, watch that movie Hot Fuzz. "For the greater good!"

Kroot. A firm ally to The Tau for saving their entire species from the wrath of orks. Kroot are basically like planet of the apes. If their "rapid evolution" power translated into D&D, it'd probably be either in the form of spelltheif's steal spell ability or druid's wildshape, but at the cost of they risk losing their sentinence and becoming no better then a normal chimpanzee.

Then there's The Imperium. More or less, these are "the goodguys" of Warhammer 40k, in that it seems to primarily revolve around them fighting the chaos factions. The Imperium is everything you come to expect from future dystopias. Nazi undertones, a one world military state, ridiculous guns and codes... Sometimes the imperium allows it's members to excersise their psionic abilities and become the psi-ops. But thats few and far between because opening up one's mind to psionics also tempts fate to make you suspetable to the warp. (So in warhammer40k, psionics=binder) The brunt of the military are just tier-5 fighter squadrons who occassionally pull off something good, but are just cannon fodder. The bread and butter of heroism from the imperium is the inqusition (paladins pumped up and can smite just about anything at just about anytime) and space marines. (Fighters with some very VERY nice gear...)



I don't play with the miniatures, but I throughly enjoy the morbid space appocalypse scenario... Hoped I help some.

paddyfool
2010-06-26, 02:27 AM
You do know about Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Roleplay), right? Not everything has to be d20...

(The current edition is made by Fantasy Flight, and is nice and easy to learn and get into. However, being a Fantasy Flight game, it comes with ludicrous amounts of props and stuff).

Whoops, just saw you were talking about 40k. You want Rogue Trader (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=78). Haven't played it myself, but I've some friends who've found it fun.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-26, 10:23 AM
Chaos:


Tzeetch is basically Asmodeus by another name. He's always one step ahead, he's always undermining everybody else and at the top, and everyone always talks smack about him yet won't lift a finger against him. They're too afraid too. Asmodeous more then any of the other chaos gods is about pure spellcasting. So he'd get the best spells. The utility ones...

Actually, Tzeetch is more like a completaly mad Asmodeus that facestabed the god of magic and stole his powers and now uses his amazing intellect to further his own agenda that even he can't fully understand. He also has a tendency to be too generous with his followers, often given them too many Chaos Gifts and transforming them into mindless Spawns.


Khorne is a war god. Self buffs are pretty common amongst clerics, what isn't common is a complete disregard for one's fallen allies. Khorne isn't the god you want to worship if you want job security... He's been known to kill his own suboordinates in fits of rage. His worshippers are something like frenzied beserkers. Ironically, Khrone despises magic, and it is forbidden for his worshippers to use it. Because apparently it makes you a sissy.

I think you meant that a complete disregard of ones and ones allies safety is common. As a matter of fact, Khorne worshipers are known to live by the rule that a day without a death in the name of Khorne is a wasted day, and so often turn on one another if their are no other victims nearby. Khorne is also famous for his tendancy to make Spawns out of every Champion that loses a battle. His worshippers also hate Nurgle, for reasons that remain unclear. However, he has been known to refuse to send his worshipers to attack innocents, because they were "unworthy of his attention".


Slaanish is just all about drugs, sex, and passive aggressive bullcrap. I immagine if you really want to capture the essence of Slaanish you'll need to consult book of vile darkness for some idea of wear to go with spells, addiction, perversions, etc.

Slaanesh is actually the god of perversion, having been birthed during the Fall of the Eldars (they had become so decadent that their latent psychic powers birthed Slaanesh). Most other Chaos Gods despise Slaanesh for her decadence, but Nurgle often doesn't mind, probably because of his own view of himself as "Father Nurgle", who freely gives "gifts" to all his followers.

Orks:


And that's just the chaos gods. Orks are essentially plant based creatures that when they "bleed", they pollenate, and then there's more of them to deal with. They're chaotic stupid and live only for the "fun" of battle. And though you'd think Khorne would control them, they can't be controlled. They have their own quantamn psychic hive mind that basically grants them immunity to chaos god's suggestions... So they're psionic and have spell resistance ontop of everything else...

Orks are naturaly psychic, but they don't have a Hive Mind, and most can't use their powers. Only a chosen few can, and they take their powers from the uncontrolled psychic emanations from nearby Orks (know as Waaagh!!! power) instead of the Warp. Furthermore, it is often stated that if Orks could only stop fighting amongst them, they could whipe out the entire Galaxy.
Eldars:

There's the eldar. Pretty much what you'd expect of elves. They think they're so great, and maybe at one time they were. But now they're a joke. Eldar are to be played kind of like psionic paladins. They can predict the future, and have a deep fear of falling to the warp. (Imagine if the elemental plane of negative energy was all the elemental plane of dirty thoughts, fiends, and entropy where anything and everything can happen...)

Since the Fall (well actually, since they deafeted the Necrons), the Eldars have been a dying race. Their military is highly organized, with different spesializations know as Aspects (lots of Prc possibilities here), and their Psykers are more like Psy Wars with a focus on telepathy (especially the Warlocks). They are still individually some of the most dangerous warriors in the Galaxy, and are often the only thing that saves it from destruction at the hands of a Dark Crusade of Hive Fleet.

Tau:

The Tau. My most despised faction... The Tau are like some Zeitgesit crap. This ultra collectivist bunch of stromtroopers who probably would use auras like marshals/dragon shamans to powerup eachother. It's the reverse ninja law. The more tau are in a room, the more screwed you are... Inorder to get inside the mindset of the tau, watch that movie Hot Fuzz. "For the greater good!"

The Tau are actually the only race with no acess to psychic powers of any sort, and are known for their fast attack and stealth tactics. They supplement their tactics with other races, including the Kroot and the Vespid.


Kroot. A firm ally to The Tau for saving their entire species from the wrath of orks. Kroot are basically like planet of the apes. If their "rapid evolution" power translated into D&D, it'd probably be either in the form of spelltheif's steal spell ability or druid's wildshape, but at the cost of they risk losing their sentinence and becoming no better then a normal chimpanzee.
Actually, the Kroots evolution is based on them eating their victims, so maybe make a class that can "absorb" the abilities of their victims (either for a limited time or until they replace them with others). This natural thendancy makes the Kroot into of the deadliest species in the long run, because they take the best characteristics from all their victims.

Imperium of Man:

Then there's The Imperium. More or less, these are "the goodguys" of Warhammer 40k, in that it seems to primarily revolve around them fighting the chaos factions. The Imperium is everything you come to expect from future dystopias. Nazi undertones, a one world military state, ridiculous guns and codes... Sometimes the imperium allows it's members to excersise their psionic abilities and become the psi-ops. But thats few and far between because opening up one's mind to psionics also tempts fate to make you suspetable to the warp. (So in warhammer40k, psionics=binder) The brunt of the military are just tier-5 fighter squadrons who occassionally pull off something good, but are just cannon fodder.

The Imperium (and especially the Inquisition) aren't really good, their simply not as genocidal as the rest (although they have nothing against firebombing entire planets for the sake of killing a few heretics). It is still a totalitary regime that is heavily indoctrinated and xenophobic. Also, the Emperor (their "god" that is infact an invalid extremely powerfull psyker) requires that they feed him the souls of a thousand psykers everyday to "feed him". Finally, one of the most iconic parts of the Imperium's Army is the Comissars, indoctrinated officers whose only function is maintening fighting spirit in the men, often by executing a few (like the Soviets did in WW2). As for the men themselves, even if they are the worst in the Galaxy, they'd still probably be the equivalent of US Marines (or any other heavily trained organisation here), and the Stormtroopers are true masters of guerrila warfare and Black Ops.


The bread and butter of heroism from the imperium is the inqusition (paladins pumped up and can smite just about anything at just about anytime) and space marines. (Fighters with some very VERY nice gear...)

Actually, the Inquisition is more like the Gestapo on steroids, with the unsavory tendancy to destroy entire worlds because of "rumors" of heresy (one of their motos is "It is better for a milion to die then to let 1 heretic live."), and most Inquisitors are far from perfect examples of good. Most are Lawfull EVIL, and some even become corrupted by the forces they mean to destroy. The only true champions are the Grey Knights, who are at best Lawfull Neutral, but are essentially all Psychic Warriors with a heavy dose of Übermench in there (they receive the same biomods as Space Marines, but have an even more rigourous mental training, and none have ever fallen to Chaos).
As for the Space Marines, they are essentially extremely bioengineered humans that have the strenght of 5 men and that are almost unkilable. They don't sleep, then can keep on fighting if they are ripped in two, and have crazy big armor that weights about 2 tons. They vary wildly from one Chapter (essentially different armies, but that are self-sufficient and independant). Some, like the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fist, are close to the "Codex", and are organised and have a standard organisation. Others, like the Space Wolves, are wilder, and focus on close combat and planetary assaults. They are almost a thousand Chapters, and each have their own differences and special units, so its an almost endless supply of ideas. However, they aren't immune to the influence of Demons, and during the Horus Heresy, half of them (which is essentially a couple of milions) turned against the Emperor and joined Chaos (so now you can have even more Evil Space Marines with mutations). They are like fighters, exept with all the advantages of Barbarian, Warblade and Crusader all smashed into one, and then some.

And those are only the "nice" races. Then you have the truly evil ones.

Necrons:
First of all, theirs the Necrons, who are essentially immortal warforged with uncontrolable omnicidal tendancies and whose ultimate goal is the destruction of all life in the universe (to feed it to their Gods). They are also souless, so the Demons can't try to posess them.
Dark Eldars:
Then their is the Dark Eldars, essentially the Eldars that were corrupted by Slaanesh during the fall. They are always Chaotic Evil, and are essentially Drows exept 10 times as cruel and with a space pirate feel to them.

Tyranids:
Finally, theirs the Tyranids, that are essentially uncountable hordes of giant bugs that live to consumme all life in the Universe (not the galaxy, the universe) linked in a Hive Mind. They are also bioengineered into specialised roles (like the Zerg in Starcraft), and the bigger they get, the more intelligent they become (except for Carnifexes, who are the BSFs of the race). They also have a tendancy to developp psychic powers, but they stem from the communal mental might of the Hive Mind, and not from the Warp. As for alignement, they are essentially Neutral Hungry.

This might seem a little oppresive, but remember that Warhammer 40k is an extremely dark and grity universe, were bilions die every day in endless wars. Although some individuals are good, they are no organisation that are actually Good, because they are all xenophobic and ruthless.

Finaly, always remember that In the dark future of the 41st millenium, their is only War.

imperialspectre
2010-06-26, 10:40 AM
All of the work for playing a D20-based 40k game can be found here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49873). It's quite enjoyable.

Caxton
2010-06-26, 02:35 PM
I've looked at a few other d20 systems and they don't really work for me. Especially since you have to be an Imperium person. I had this same problem with Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy. I want a system that allows much more freedom than that. With that said, I have a plan of action for starting to produce some material.

1. Space Marines (Prestige Class I think it will be)
2. A system for Psykers
3. Eldar

Any advice on these things will be greatly appreciated. And of course, if anyone has any material they like I'd love to see it.

(BTW I am a big fan of Eldar so I am going to do some detail on the Eldar stuff. It does seem like the Aspect Warriors are going to be PrCs!)

Oslecamo
2010-06-26, 04:08 PM
I've looked at a few other d20 systems and they don't really work for me. Especially since you have to be an Imperium person.

+1. All of the oficial material wants to force you to play some lowly imperial, not even a proper inquisitor or space marine.



Any advice on these things will be greatly appreciated. And of course, if anyone has any material they like I'd love to see it.

My first homebrew here was a space marine class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110149).

NecroticPunch
2010-06-26, 04:21 PM
If I had some help with it, I could make some more Tyranid PrCs. I already did Zoanthrope :/

whoiam
2010-06-27, 03:29 AM
Just to add something, briefly: This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157002) contains both Necrotic's Zoanthrope PrC and my Make-a-Tyranid kit that it was written to extend.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-27, 06:06 AM
I'd suggest making a base class for all races you want, and then expand on that with Prcs to make the specialised classes (except for Tyranids, just look at whoiam's class, it works perfectly).

Also, I think that for the most part, W40k is better suited to a Gestalt game, because except for the Imperial Guard and the Tau themselves, most other races at least have a few LA, and most Heroes are probably dual-classed. (heck, even the average Ork Warboss is probably an Ork/LA+Warboss Prc+something else).

Caxton
2010-06-27, 02:21 PM
Working on the Space Marines. I need to do more research on the chapters, as I really don't know so much about Space Wolves and Blood Angels. About Grey Knights, should they be included here? They are Space Marines, to my understanding.

Also I want to mention that the Tyranid stuff looks great! Thanks for the contribution. Tyranid's kinda worried me as I didn't want to have to make a thousand monsters.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:26 PM
As I remember it, Grey Knights are Terminators with special weapons and low-level squad psyker powers.

Oslecamo
2010-06-27, 02:41 PM
As I remember it, Grey Knights are Terminators with special weapons and low-level squad psyker powers.

Not exactly, grey knights are a special chapter specialized in fighting daemons. Most of them use power armor pimped up with all kind of special seals to ward off warp energies. They're indeed all psykers, because they all are armed with force weapons wich demand psychic energy to unleash their full power. Said force weapons are specially effective against daemons. And then there's terminator grey knights wich are like the above but with warded terminator armor.

They're tecnically the strongest marines, but from a cost-effeciency point of view, they're only really worth it when fighting against daemons, as most of their extra stuff is useless against more regular oponents like orks.

Oh, and they're also completely brainwashed into soulless machines to make sure they can never be tempted/tricked by chaos. They're the only chapter that has zero traitors on it's history.

hamishspence
2010-06-27, 02:41 PM
In 2nd ed, the only Grey knights there were rules for, were the Terminators, but in 3rd ed, they got a whole army- Land Raiders, power armoured guys, dreadnoughts, etc.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-27, 02:42 PM
Working on the Space Marines. I need to do more research on the chapters, as I really don't know so much about Space Wolves and Blood Angels. About Grey Knights, should they be included here? They are Space Marines, to my understanding.

Also I want to mention that the Tyranid stuff looks great! Thanks for the contribution. Tyranid's kinda worried me as I didn't want to have to make a thousand monsters.

If you want help with the Chapters, just PM me. I know a wealth of info about most, especialy the original 10.

And as for Grey Knights, they were originaly part of the Imperium's army, and have had "traitors", only no demonic possesions.

whoiam
2010-06-27, 02:48 PM
To be fair, I haven't used Grey Knights since 2nd ed. Except for their appearance in Dawn of War...

NecroticPunch
2010-06-27, 06:05 PM
I'll be getting Dawn of War soon, so I'm happy.

On a related note: Ok, so are we gonna have someone post up a table of everyone's duties?

Lord Blace
2010-06-28, 11:31 PM
I'm willing to work on armors/items/what-not. And IMO, the vitality&wound point system would work well here.
What does everyone think of armor bestowing damage reduction/armor piercing x? So that, say standard Space Marine power armor would give DR X/AP Y? And things that give an invulnerable save have dr/-? And various weapons would be given an AP score along with its damage/range/etc?

Caxton
2010-06-29, 01:14 AM
Making headway on the Space Marine PrC. Statted out some armors, so there is something to show. BTW the Armor Performance ability will be a feature that Space Marines develop. Also I am using a system under which weapons will have an AP value (at the suggestion of Lord Blace!) which can negate damage reduction. Tell me what you think of the work so far! Also, anyone who wishes to volunteer for any part of the universe is highly encouraged to do so...either post here or PM me. I really am looking forward to doing Eldar though, I love their fluff.

Space Marine Armors
{table=head]Armor Name|Damage Reduction|Armor Check Penalty|Wealth DC|Weight

Scout Armor|
3/AP 3|
-2|
19|
30 Lbs|

Power Armor|
4/ Ap 4|
-4|
25|
50 Lbs|

Artificer Armor|
10/Ap 5|
-4|
40|
50 Lbs|

Terminator Armor|
10/-|
-8|
30|
80 Lbs|[/table]

Scout Armor
The standard armor worn by the scouts of the space marines. It can only be used to its full potential by a Space Marine. Anyone without Scout Armor Performance only receives DR 1/AP 1 and has a maximum dexterity bonus of +1.

Power Armor
Worn by tactical marines, as well as most other Marine formations, Power Armor is a visible symbol of the Imperium's might. Only those who possess the physical augmentations and special training of the Space Marines may use Power Armor to its fullest potential. Anyone without Power Armor Performance only receives DR 2/Ap 2 and has a maximum dexterity bonus of +0.

Artificer Armor
An incredibly rare and powerful armor only granted to the most revered Space Marines, Artificer Armor combines the protection of Terminator Armor with the flexibility of Power Armor. The armor also houses a bewildering array of tools, granting a +2 equipment bonus to all Craft and Repair checks. However, only one who has reached the fullest potential of his gene seed may use the armor properly. All those without Artificer Armor Performance may not enjoy any bonuses to skill checks from the Armor, receive DR 2/ AP 2, and have a maximum dexterity bonus of +0.

Terminator Armor
The Terminator Armor provides a protective shell capable of withstanding the most powerful weapons of the 41st millennium. The Crux Terminatus in the shoulder plate of the armor provides a ward allowing this armor to survive the most penetrating fire. However, one cannot hope to receive the full protection of the armor without the special interface mechanisms woven into Space Marine gene seed. Those without Terminator Armor Performance receive DR 3/ AP 3.

Zellic Solis
2010-06-29, 01:48 AM
What this thread tells me is that you have no idea what 40k really is. The line "I want a game with more freedom" says to me that you think 40k is about choice. It isn't. It is a harsh game and a harsh setting. I have had GM's force me to roll my planet of origin and class every bit as random as my stats because you have no control over who you are born to or your economic status. And I have had my character shot through the head for questioning the need to purge a hive of 'benign' Xenos.

Dark Heresy is called that for a reason. 40K is dark. Rogue trader is a shade less so. The Xenos aren't your friends. They will get you killed, either killing you themselves, getting someone else to kill you, or getting the Inquisition to shoot you themselves. The Imperium is not nice. They are not good. They do not pretend to be. They are the domination of humanity and will do anything and everything to perpetuate its existence.

The Orks are not your friends. They want to kill you for fun. They are genetically disposed to do so.

The Eldar are not you friends. You are meat. You DIE of AGE. You are a species that has to make do with whatever dirt you come across while the Eldar grow their own world and craft their wonders from the souls of their dead through pure will alone. And for you, the only difference is that you are too worthless for the Eldar to do other than a quick death while the dark Eldar feast on your pain and misery. Literally.

The Tyrannids wish to eat you. Your family. Your friends. Every organic thing on your planet. And the next. and the next.

The Necrons want to kill you. Period.

The Demons want to use you to destroy the universe. It's their duty to use you.

Ah, but I know what you're thinking. The Tau are good, right? "For the Greater Good" and all that? The Tau are insects. The Etherial caste control their entire race through pheromones. The greater good is whatever the Etherials say it is and the Etherials mass breed millions of sterile fire caste warriors to send them to their "oh so regrettable" deaths. And funny how every human colony absorbed by the Tau has humans going extinct. What an interesting coincidence, huh?

In short, in the 40k world the other is not your friend. The other will use you, kill you, exploit you, corrupt you, or do anything and everything to ensure that you betray your own species. There is not a single Xenos species that can cohabit with humanity in 40k. Sure the Imperium is quite a collection of royal bastards but at least they're human. Their actions forward humanity, albeit by monstrous means.

What you seem to be doing is trying to make 40k into DnD. Stop. You can't. You won't be playing an eldar screaming banshee teaming up with your orc buddy and his necro pariah friend while the space marine decides which demon cult to wipe out. It doesn't work like that. Ever. Do Xenos and the Imperium work together on exceptionally rare occasions? Sure. Ghostwatch is a team of space Marines working with the Inquisition to deal with problems 'subtly'. But once the problem is dealt with 40k makes it very clear: "Purge the unclean" and that includes every alien, mutant, and heretic that doesn't match the inquisition's criteria. And that is a fact and a way of life that you accept when you play 40k. You want to mix humans with strange and exotic aliens? Play star wars. It's d20 and your GM can pretend to make it something like the grimdark of 40k. But don't pretend that it's nothing less than a cheap bastardization of the harsh and cruel setting of the original.

Incidentally, the Astartes book (for space marines) is coming out in july and the psyker book is coming out in october.

Lord Blace
2010-06-29, 02:46 AM
What this thread tells me is that you have no idea what 40k really is. The line "I want a game with more freedom" says to me that you think 40k is about choice. It isn't. It is a harsh game and a harsh setting. I have had GM's force me to roll my planet of origin and class every bit as random as my stats because you have no control over who you are born to or your economic status. And I have had my character shot through the head for questioning the need to purge a hive of 'benign' Xenos.

Dark Heresy is called that for a reason. 40K is dark. Rogue trader is a shade less so. The Xenos aren't your friends. They will get you killed, either killing you themselves, getting someone else to kill you, or getting the Inquisition to shoot you themselves. The Imperium is not nice. They are not good. They do not pretend to be. They are the domination of humanity and will do anything and everything to perpetuate its existence.

The Orks are not your friends. They want to kill you for fun. They are genetically disposed to do so.

The Eldar are not you friends. You are meat. You DIE of AGE. You are a species that has to make do with whatever dirt you come across while the Eldar grow their own world and craft their wonders from the souls of their dead through pure will alone. And for you, the only difference is that you are too worthless for the Eldar to do other than a quick death while the dark Eldar feast on your pain and misery. Literally.

The Tyrannids wish to eat you. Your family. Your friends. Every organic thing on your planet. And the next. and the next.

The Necrons want to kill you. Period.

The Demons want to use you to destroy the universe. It's their duty to use you.

Ah, but I know what you're thinking. The Tau are good, right? "For the Greater Good" and all that? The Tau are insects. The Etherial caste control their entire race through pheromones. The greater good is whatever the Etherials say it is and the Etherials mass breed millions of sterile fire caste warriors to send them to their "oh so regrettable" deaths. And funny how every human colony absorbed by the Tau has humans going extinct. What an interesting coincidence, huh?

In short, in the 40k world the other is not your friend. The other will use you, kill you, exploit you, corrupt you, or do anything and everything to ensure that you betray your own species. There is not a single Xenos species that can cohabit with humanity in 40k. Sure the Imperium is quite a collection of royal bastards but at least they're human. Their actions forward humanity, albeit by monstrous means.

What you seem to be doing is trying to make 40k into DnD. Stop. You can't. You won't be playing an eldar screaming banshee teaming up with your orc buddy and his necro pariah friend while the space marine decides which demon cult to wipe out. It doesn't work like that. Ever. Do Xenos and the Imperium work together on exceptionally rare occasions? Sure. Ghostwatch is a team of space Marines working with the Inquisition to deal with problems 'subtly'. But once the problem is dealt with 40k makes it very clear: "Purge the unclean" and that includes every alien, mutant, and heretic that doesn't match the inquisition's criteria. And that is a fact and a way of life that you accept when you play 40k. You want to mix humans with strange and exotic aliens? Play star wars. It's d20 and your GM can pretend to make it something like the grimdark of 40k. But don't pretend that it's nothing less than a cheap bastardization of the harsh and cruel setting of the original.

Incidentally, the Astartes book (for space marines) is coming out in july and the psyker book is coming out in october.

And what if we want to play as just a group of Eldar? And what if we want to play as just a group of orks? Not to mention the fact that PC's in games generally tend to be these rare exceptions you mention. Coming in and trying to tear down what my friend Caxton here, and others are trying to do is not cool. You don't like it? You don't have to contribute. Like my mother always said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 03:27 AM
I actually wrote up some homebrew races a while back for d20 40k. It was fun.

I made Eldar actually playable at lower levels. Despite their capabilities, they experience everything too much. If an Eldar is in combat or in some exciting circumstance, they've gotta make concentration checks and will saves or go into a rage-like state where they lose control of themselves and fall. I made kroot have +4 str but not for gear carrying or bullrushing capabilities, and I made several varaitions of humans to represent different worlds.

I'll see if I can dig it up.

Dante

Oslecamo
2010-06-29, 05:37 AM
Ah, but I know what you're thinking. The Tau are good, right? "For the Greater Good" and all that? The Tau are insects. The Etherial caste control their entire race through pheromones. The greater good is whatever the Etherials say it is and the Etherials mass breed millions of sterile fire caste warriors to send them to their "oh so regrettable" deaths.

Actualy, the Tau stand out in the 40K seting because they do their best to minimize casualities of their own forces. Tau don't do "heroic" hold the lines against overwhelming forces. They pull back and shoot you from afar and keep doing it as much as necessary. The imperium is the one with trillions of lives to throw away. The Tau can't afford "oh so regrettable" deaths.

Furthermore the Tau offer you the possibility of surrender, profitable trade agreemets and the best tech in the galaxy if you join their side. The imperium of man offers you a quick death at best and a miserable slow agonizing death at worst.

So what if they're being controled by pheremones (wich hasn't been proved yet BTW)? The Tau would've wiped themselves out long ago if not for the Ethereals! The human barbarians have overwhelming resource advantage, but since their leaders order them to blindly charge into battle whitout caring for their lives, the Tau army that cares about their own not only keeps them at bay but is actualy expanding!



And funny how every human colony absorbed by the Tau has humans going extinct. What an interesting coincidence, huh?

Hmm, whot? Last time I checked there were plenty of triving humie colonies on the Tau empire. Human auxiliaries are as much a part of the Tau forces as kroot and vespids nowadays.




But once the problem is dealt with 40k makes it very clear: "Purge the unclean" and that includes every alien, mutant, and heretic that doesn't match the inquisition's criteria. And that is a fact and a way of life that you accept when you play 40k.

Go to the 40K tabletop thread in the gaming section. See all the alliances they make in team games.:smallwink:



You want to mix humans with strange and exotic aliens? Play star wars. It's d20 and your GM can pretend to make it something like the grimdark of 40k.

Or, instead of playing the braindead imperium, we play an eldar mercenary working with the Tau. Orks also work as mercenary if you can provide them a good fight. Tau are more than willing to make alliances. Chaos, is, well, chaos.



But don't pretend that it's nothing less than a cheap bastardization of the harsh and cruel setting of the original.

Well, funny thing is, 40K itself is a cheap bastardization of most fiction tropes out there. It's so "cruel" and "harsh" that's it's actualy funny! Power armored duded with swords, bright colors and flags tied at their backs! Orks make things go fastah just by painting them red! Imperial guard shoots his own forces before you can shoot them! Inquisition can afford vortex missiles to destroy their own planets, but the ultramarines chapter itself can't afford vortex missiles to stop that nid fleet! The space wolves made one whole chapter go traitor and they're still considered heroes! It's simply hilarious! Everybody but the Tau is long past sheer insanity!:smallbiggrin:

Dead_Jester
2010-06-29, 06:05 AM
As for alliances, there is a long-standing tradition of Eldars helping the puny humans when they are about to do something really stupid.

Orks (especially the Blood Axe clan) have always been ready the work for the highest bidder, as long as they can have a fight. In earlier editions, they even had human mercs.

A Chaos party can use anything except maybe Nids and Necrons, who can't be corrupted.

A Tau based party can have Eldars, Humans and Tau auxiliaries, as the Tau do have a great tradition of indoctrination.

What I really what to see is a party of Jokaero.

Of course, if this is DnD, anything can happen, and as weird as your backstory might seem, just remember that their is an official one that is already probably weirder.

Zellic Solis
2010-06-29, 10:49 AM
And what if we want to play as just a group of Eldar? And what if we want to play as just a group of orks? Not to mention the fact that PC's in games generally tend to be these rare exceptions you mention. Coming in and trying to tear down what my friend Caxton here, and others are trying to do is not cool. You don't like it? You don't have to contribute. Like my mother always said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Then write www.fantasyflightsgames.com and ask them for a Xenos book. Or if you'd rather not wait go ahead and come up with classes, psychic abilities, weapons and the like in the dark heresy format. The Codex books are quite handy for converting materials to the Dark Heresy system. (and incidentally, classes in Dark Heresy are rather simple to make given that they're nothing more than skills and talents. But don't try to kiddify the setting by pretending that you can mix them at will. And like my mother always said, if someone is being stupid, better point it out or they're not going to learn any better.

Now as for mixing races, if you have to, pick up rogue trader. That's basically the setting where you can include non-humans in the party. Since the free trader can operate around the authority of the Imperium you could have an Eldar Expatriate or an ork merc and not be violating the setting. One Dark Heresy game I played in using Rogue trader had two Xenos in the crew. I was a bigot. They were disdainful. It was glorious RP. Our entire party spent the better part of an hour arguing over the ethics of the Emperium completely in character.

Lord Blace
2010-06-29, 12:00 PM
Then write www.fantasyflightsgames.com and ask them for a Xenos book. Or if you'd rather not wait go ahead and come up with classes, psychic abilities, weapons and the like in the dark heresy format. The Codex books are quite handy for converting materials to the Dark Heresy system. (and incidentally, classes in Dark Heresy are rather simple to make given that they're nothing more than skills and talents. But don't try to kiddify the setting by pretending that you can mix them at will. And like my mother always said, if someone is being stupid, better point it out or they're not going to learn any better.

Now as for mixing races, if you have to, pick up rogue trader. That's basically the setting where you can include non-humans in the party. Since the free trader can operate around the authority of the Imperium you could have an Eldar Expatriate or an ork merc and not be violating the setting. One Dark Heresy game I played in using Rogue trader had two Xenos in the crew. I was a bigot. They were disdainful. It was glorious RP. Our entire party spent the better part of an hour arguing over the ethics of the Emperium completely in character.

And just what, do tell, makes you the authority on things 'stupid'?

Caxton
2010-06-29, 12:46 PM
The Warhammer 40k universe is a vast place, and systems that restrict you to working for the Imperium seem VERY restrictive. Furthermore, it seems that you are taking the universe way too seriously. A grim, serious, campaign can be very fun, but making that the only available option is too restrictive. As has been stated, W40k is a very stereotypical sci-fi setting. To me, these facts make the setting ripe for play using the d20 system.

I would very much like to see you help us out, Solis. However, the object of this thread is NOT to determine whether or not homebrewing a d20 Setting for W40K is desirable, but to do it. In that vein, I would like to see this thread get back to discussions of fluff and mechanics.

I could use any ideas for a system for Psykers. Blace suggested to me the use of a Seed system, but I'm not sure that's appropriate. What does everyone think?

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 04:52 PM
No serious, Psionics works. Just make it you have to concentrate to avoid being attacked by daemons etc. Use the mishap rules for the misuse of Dojores from the XPH.

And on the whole Imperium thing. First of all, you're only talking about the devout. Most humans don't give a darm about the imperium in actual law, even if they revere the emperor. I had a campaign setting which was Medusa four, which, after a catastrophic event the planet was broken and parties of all races interacted without the first instinct being to destroy everything they meet. It was plausible. Eldar actual do work alongside humans. There's even a term for them, they're called outcasts or pirates.

Dante

Dead_Jester
2010-06-29, 08:00 PM
No serious, Psionics works. Just make it you have to concentrate to avoid being attacked by daemons etc. Use the mishap rules for the misuse of Dojores from the XPH.

It's not even that much of a risk since after the Age of Strife, all sanctioned Psykers (the one that actually use their powers) pass through the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and the weak willed are weaded out (or fed to the Emperor). Only during Chaos intrusions or serious warp tearing is it normally possible for trained Psykers to be possessed. As for untrained Psykers, then the risks are higher.


And on the whole Imperium thing. First of all, you're only talking about the devout. Most humans don't give a darm about the imperium in actual law, even if they revere the emperor. I had a campaign setting which was Medusa four, which, after a catastrophic event the planet was broken and parties of all races interacted without the first instinct being to destroy everything they meet. It was plausible. Eldar actual do work alongside humans. There's even a term for them, they're called outcasts or pirates.

Dante

Yes but in that example, none of the important factions of the Imperium are in play (Inquisition and Adeptus Astartes). Those factions absolutely refuse to work with Xenos, unless their survival depends on it (and even then, they refuse sometimes). Eldars help humans when it helps ensue their own survival. They would sacrifice millions of human lives if it could save a single of theirs. As for the pirates, they only help them because it's profitable for them, and have not real loyalty towards the "lesser" races.

Dead_Jester
2010-06-29, 08:01 PM
No serious, Psionics works. Just make it you have to concentrate to avoid being attacked by daemons etc. Use the mishap rules for the misuse of Dojores from the XPH.

It's not even that much of a risk since after the Age of Strife, all sanctioned Psykers (the one that actually use their powers) pass through the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and the weak willed are weaded out (or fed to the Emperor). Only during Chaos intrusions or serious warp tearing is it normally possible for trained Psykers to be possessed. As for untrained Psykers, then the risks are higher.


And on the whole Imperium thing. First of all, you're only talking about the devout. Most humans don't give a darm about the imperium in actual law, even if they revere the emperor. I had a campaign setting which was Medusa four, which, after a catastrophic event the planet was broken and parties of all races interacted without the first instinct being to destroy everything they meet. It was plausible. Eldar actual do work alongside humans. There's even a term for them, they're called outcasts or pirates.

Dante

Yes but in that example, none of the important factions of the Imperium are in play (Inquisition and Adeptus Astartes). Those factions absolutely refuse to work with Xenos, unless their survival depends on it (and even then, they refuse sometimes). Eldars help humans when it helps ensue their own survival. They would sacrifice millions of human lives if it could save a single of theirs. As for the pirates, they only help them because it's profitable for them, and have not real loyalty towards the "lesser" races.

However, it still represents one of the best scenarios for getting a diverse party together (the others one being a Tyranid or Necron invasion).

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 08:16 PM
Okay, double post lol.

Actually, I disagree. Most of the eldar, while they regard themselves as better, don't simply sacrfice a a whole human world just to have 1 eldar survive. The leaders maybe. However, Eldar outcasts are less controlled and more passionate, so would actually develop relationships with other races, primarily humans, regarding them as allies.
Dante

Dead_Jester
2010-06-29, 08:28 PM
Okay, double post lol.

Actually, I disagree. Most of the eldar, while they regard themselves as better, don't simply sacrfice a a whole human world just to have 1 eldar survive. The leaders maybe. However, Eldar outcasts are less controlled and more passionate, so would actually develop relationships with other races, primarily humans, regarding them as allies.
Dante

The personality of Eldat outcast and loners is extremely variable, from the seclusive Exodites to the traveling Harlequins. Some trade with humans, some use them as slaves, and some just kill them or ignore them. The main distinction is between those that survived the Fall and kept their decadent ways (the main group being the Dark Eldars of Commorragh) and those who either never had them, or abandoned their cruel ways.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 08:42 PM
The eldar can, with a tiny bit of artistic liscence, be closer to humans and even more extreme in emotions. I'd be happy to play a passionate eldar pirate. He could be fey and mysterious, and prone to emotion in combat.

Spirit stones represent some nice explanation of stat/skill bonuses. Maybe a Eldar prestige class requires a spirit stone.

Dante

Dead_Jester
2010-06-30, 05:58 AM
Eldars are always passionate creatures, but only a minority accepts it (the rest are too scared of Slaanesh to be too emotional), and especially in combat, because then they risk losing their souls.

As for spirit stones, that is a great idea.

Icedaemon
2010-06-30, 07:59 AM
I have seen a rather well-made D20 variation of 40k. It was made by Grudgeal, on Forumplanet. I have not had contact with him for years though, since we both left Forumplanet and neither had a clue where the other went, nor did either one care all that much by virtue of my being a phlegmatic twit.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-30, 10:32 AM
Could you, perchance, go retrieve the previously stated thing?

Zellic Solis
2010-06-30, 03:44 PM
The eldar can, with a tiny bit of artistic liscence, be closer to humans and even more extreme in emotions. I'd be happy to play a passionate eldar pirate. He could be fey and mysterious, and prone to emotion in combat.

Spirit stones represent some nice explanation of stat/skill bonuses. Maybe a Eldar prestige class requires a spirit stone.

Dante

Eldar would regard a relationship with a human the same as we would regard a human with a relationship with a dog. Disturbing, depraved, and a sign of corruption or insanity. Eldar have difficulty acknowledging humans as actually sentient since the average human lives less than a thousanth of their lifespans. Seriously. We're goldfish to them. And while one may like their goldfish one never ever gets overly emotionally attached to something that will be dead in two years and flushed down the toilet.

Sigh...

Here is what is driving me nuts about "Homebrewing" Warhammer. You're not homebrewing. What you are doing is trying to create a knock-off that has a few superficial aspects of 40k. Warhammer is harsh and gritty, taken to ridiculous levels. It is a serious setting and while it occasionally (and intentionally) goes around the bend into black comedy it is never light and cutie. If you want to dream up a sci-fi setting set to a d20 system, have a blast. But don't take something that all ready has an excellent system and a VERY established setting and piss all over it because you can't accept it for what it is: a stark, cruel, harsh setting where life is cheap and you are fighting against horrific, insidious, and overwhelming forces to maintain the rule of man.

If you want to homebrew something for Dark Heresy, I'd love to see it. But what I don't like to see is people not understanding the setting or the system coming up with ideas that violate the very premise of the 40k universe. Better you create whatever setting you want and set the tone where you like than to perpetuate this.

Oslecamo
2010-06-30, 04:00 PM
Seriously. We're goldfish to them. And while one may like their goldfish one never ever gets overly emotionally attached to something that will be dead in two years and flushed down the toilet.

On the contrary, plenty of eldars recognize the mon-keygs have plenty of potential and thinking they're harmless is a big mistake. Sure, they still think they're superior, but no sane or insane eldar would think of an humie as a harmless pet.



Here is what is driving me nuts about "Homebrewing" Warhammer. You're not homebrewing. What you are doing is trying to create a knock-off that has a few superficial aspects of 40k. Warhammer is harsh and gritty, taken to ridiculous levels. It is a serious setting and while it occasionally (and intentionally) goes around the bend into black comedy it is never light and cutie.

Neither is d20. Monsters overrun the land. The Abyss is literally bursting with demons, Asmodeus grows stronger every day and giant energy-breathing lizards raze whole cities for their own profit. Humanoid races are horribly outgunned and forced to fight amongst themselves. No, good sir, your average D&D game can be just as cruel and harsh as 40K.



If you want to dream up a sci-fi setting set to a d20 system, have a blast. But don't take something that all ready has an excellent system and a VERY established setting and piss all over it because you can't accept it for what it is: a stark, cruel, harsh setting where life is cheap and you are fighting against horrific, insidious, and overwhelming forces to maintain the rule of man.

Again, how's that diferent from your average D&D game? Mind flayers come from other dimenions to literally eat your brains, orc hordes live for war, and wizards tear apart holes in reality unleashing unspeakable horrors just to see if they can do it.



If you want to homebrew something for Dark Heresy, I'd love to see it. But what I don't like to see is people not understanding the setting or the system coming up with ideas that violate the very premise of the 40k universe. Better you create whatever setting you want and set the tone where you like than to perpetuate this.

It doesn't matter. The galaxy is a pretty big place. Somewhere, sometime, there will be a less arrogant eldar, a less bloodthirsty ork and a less zealot guardsmen that will be willing to work togheter in 40K. We're not interested to play Jack RedShirt that spends his life cowering behind trenches untill a chaos titan steps over him and squashes him into paste.

We want to play CEPHIAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!, who managed to die of old age. We want to play COMISSAR YARRICK, who kills warbosses with a single hand and it's so badass orks let him go free when they capture him!:smallbiggrin:

Cadian 9th
2010-06-30, 06:32 PM
Eldar would regard a relationship with a human the same as we would regard a human with a relationship with a dog. Disturbing, depraved, and a sign of corruption or insanity. Eldar have difficulty acknowledging humans as actually sentient since the average human lives less than a thousanth of their lifespans. Seriously. We're goldfish to them. And while one may like their goldfish one never ever gets overly emotionally attached to something that will be dead in two years and flushed down the toilet.


Actually, No. Eldar have acknowledged the Space Marines and Imperial guard as competant fighting forces, even if their tactics are less superior. Farseer Eldrad also has commented on the strength of the space marines, and has conversed with and fought alongside space marines, not just using them as cannon fodder but actually acknowledging their strengths, even if the eldar believe their strength is wider spread. What about the Tau? The Eldar regard the Tau as impressive and look to them with help. In a quote from Dawn of War, A farseer says:

Aun'el Shi O'res: El’dar, your attack against us is ill conceived.
Farseer Taldeer: I choose the path of war because it is the only one left to me, Aun'el Shi'ores of T'au.
Aun'el Shi O'res: War against the Greater Good is never justified.
Farseer Taldeer: Naive child.


I think the use of "naive child" rather than "stupid worthless idiot" shows that the Eldar view other races as merely younger and not inferior. The use of child implies that the Farseer thinks the Tau can learn. Contrast with this:


Warlord Gorgutz: You Eldar are startin’ to be a real pain, ya know that?
Farseer Taldeer: Our task here is too important to let one such as you derail it.
Warlord Gorgutz: Hunh? Did you say somethin’, Eldar? I couldn’t hear for all that hot air youz blowin’.
Farseer Taldeer: Your infantilism is boundless, Ork.
Warlord Gorgutz: And she still won’t shut it!


I think that is an example of Eldar regarding another race as inferior.



Sigh...

Here is what is driving me nuts about "Homebrewing" Warhammer. You're not homebrewing. What you are doing is trying to create a knock-off that has a few superficial aspects of 40k. Warhammer is harsh and gritty, taken to ridiculous levels. It is a serious setting and while it occasionally (and intentionally) goes around the bend into black comedy it is never light and cutie. If you want to dream up a sci-fi setting set to a d20 system, have a blast. But don't take something that all ready has an excellent system and a VERY established setting and piss all over it because you can't accept it for what it is: a stark, cruel, harsh setting where life is cheap and you are fighting against horrific, insidious, and overwhelming forces to maintain the rule of man.

If you want to homebrew something for Dark Heresy, I'd love to see it. But what I don't like to see is people not understanding the setting or the system coming up with ideas that violate the very premise of the 40k universe. Better you create whatever setting you want and set the tone where you like than to perpetuate this.

Okay, we get the point. If you are so angry about us trying to make a nice game that we'll enjoy, go somewhere else. We really understand your point. I don't believe that what we are doing here is "ruining a great setting". What happens when a group of eldar and humans get together to fight back against a chaos cult who are summoning daemons to ravage the world and hunt them down? How about the psyker is more and more tormented by the daemons hunting them, and then the remaining Daemon hunter is forced to choose between the two evils. But please, desist with your disparaging comments. They aren't adding anything constructive to this thread and we'd love to just get some nice minor rule changes that allow us to play the way we'd like to.

Dante

whoiam
2010-06-30, 06:52 PM
Now, apart from volunteering my Tyranid homebrew a little earlier, I haven't said much on this thread... and I'm not going to, because I've already taken one species and don't fancy handling a second;)

But, I would like to point out that... well, there is nothing wrong with there being exceptions to the portrayal of a species as a whole.

Chaos
Several groups of the followers of chaos would probably work with non-chaos types against a more immediate threat. Followers of Tzeentch especially. Hopefully the non-chaos types would be smart enough not to trust them, but you know... there's one born every minute.

Eldar
There's nothing wrong with an Eldar making friends with a non-Eldar. There's something *very* wrong with a craftworld Eldar making friends with non-Eldar and the rest of the craftworld thinking that's perfectly normal - e.g, that falls squarely under the 'perversion of the setting' thing that Zollis keeps on complaining about.

But a lone or small group of Eldar can do what they like. And I have little doubt that there are Exodite communities that get along well with neighbouring Tau and/or Imperial systems. Or would be, if the setting was, you know, real.

Necrons
Yeah... I don't see Necrons befriending anyone else, do you?

Tyranids
A had an idea for a story once, where a Tyranid Hive fell in love with a star system... Never wrote it, though. The Tyranids Hives are intelligent enough to form attachments, but they probably wouldn't want to. Temporary alliances, perhaps, but they're not really the marrying type.

Individual Tyranids are a better bet. A Synapse creature bereft of hive would probably be intelligent enough to exercise free will. Most of them would just eat humanoids on sight, but some might decide it's better to play nice with the Space Marines until you can find your way back to a hive...

Imperium
The Inquisition and the Sisters of Battle probably aren't going to be singing drinking songs with the greenskins anytime soon.

But you could see the Space Marines developing something of a friendly rivalry with a Tau or Eldar force that had helped them a time or two... So long as they didn't do the DoW Eldar's trick of helping them in as assholish a way as they possibly could.

Likewise the Imperial Guardsmen would make friends if they could. Hey, each Eldar that likes you is one less firing shurikens at you.

Besides, the Adeptus Mechanus would probably bite the hand off any Tau or Eldar who wanted to be friends...

Tau
Whilst not necessarily a nice peoples, they certainly seem to be a pragmatic one. Definitely Tau would take allies or friends where they could.

Summary
Before Zollis comes out with more comments about how unnatural such things would be, or how much of an aberration they would be, I wish to offer the following for his consideration - the German woman who married the Berlin Wall (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2035996/Woman-married-to-Berlin-Wall-for-29-years.html).

If our single planet can produce a person who fell in love with a fortification, then the entire Galaxy can churn out an Eldar who isn't a **** with a superiority complex and a human willing to hold off on shooting them long enough to find that out...

That said, I wouldn't be too happy if someone ran a 40K game where everyone was smiling and happy. But if someone wanted to work a few characters with personalities rather than racial traits into the setting? I wouldn't object to that.

In fact, I'd probably submit a Tech Marine for it. Or an orphaned synapse Tyranid;)

Corporate M
2010-06-30, 08:57 PM
I can see why some get upset. But really, as dark as warhammer40k is, whats even darker is it's eventually going to go mainstream and it's going to lose some of it's edge whether or not the writers sellout.

Now mind you, someone whos favorite books include Fatal and Book of Vile Darkness knows a thing or two about grimdark. (Or rather, knows a thing or too about sociopathic comedy) Which I think people get the two confused. Myself included. That it a connundrum. Do we want this warhammer40k campaign to take itself seriously? Or do we want to make a playable space Fatal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr6yPNbFEjY
Cause if the latter, I'd be more then glad to test out the finished system as an ork commando.

Oslecamo
2010-07-01, 02:50 AM
Tyranids
A had an idea for a story once, where a Tyranid Hive fell in love with a star system... Never wrote it, though. The Tyranids Hives are intelligent enough to form attachments, but they probably wouldn't want to. Temporary alliances, perhaps, but they're not really the marrying type.

Individual Tyranids are a better bet. A Synapse creature bereft of hive would probably be intelligent enough to exercise free will. Most of them would just eat humanoids on sight, but some might decide it's better to play nice with the Space Marines until you can find your way back to a hive...

Actualy, that's one that shouldn't work at all. The fluff clearly states that most tyranids are mindless beasts (waste of resources to give a proper brain to someone's whose job is to blindly follow orders) and when left out of the hivemind influence they become to savage beasts, like the extra-vicious catachan devil.

Genestealers are some of the few nids that could've said to have intelegence outside of the hivemind, but even then their plan falls on "prepare this planet for the coming of the main nid fleet!" by slowly corrupting the population. Heck even chaos has better standards than that (work hard enough and be lucky enough and you can become a mighty immortal warlord)!

By your reasoning, the necrons would all be willing to make alliances, because altough their gods feed on life-energy, they don't actualy want to wipe it out all of the galaxy, because that would mean their gods would starve to death. That's why the crons have been sleeping untill now. They were waiting for the galaxy to be filled with tasty life again. And now the necrons have been known to actualy intercept nid fleets and save whole planets from the devouring horde! Just don't try to thank them personally.

Dead_Jester
2010-07-01, 05:26 AM
By your reasoning, the necrons would all be willing to make alliances, because altough their gods feed on life-energy, they don't actualy want to wipe it out all of the galaxy, because that would mean their gods would starve to death. That's why the crons have been sleeping untill now. They were waiting for the galaxy to be filled with tasty life again. And now the necrons have been known to actualy intercept nid fleets and save whole planets from the devouring horde! Just don't try to thank them personally.

Actually, the Necrons would go back to their tombs after they wiped out all life, and the C'tan would go back to eating stars. The only reason they stopped the nids is because it is more worthwhile for them to kill creatures wit souls then nids, because their gods consume the soul energy. The Necrons want to destroy sentient life only because their gods find soul energy more tasty than star energy.

paddyfool
2010-07-01, 05:58 AM
RPing as a Genestealer hybrid passing themselves off as human would be fun, although the inevitable backstab might not be so cheerful for the other players...

Dead_Jester
2010-07-01, 09:11 AM
RPing as a Genestealer hybrid passing themselves off as human would be fun, although the inevitable backstab might not be so cheerful for the other players...

Backstabing is a bad idea, especially if you don't have the genestealers claws. It would be smarter to stick around and wait until they bring you to a better world or make you rise in social status so you can make the invasion easier/more profitable in due time. No point in backstabing them, because they'll try to team you up and you'll end up dead. It is much more profitable (and fun) to let a carnifex do the dirty work for you :smallcool:.

Oslecamo
2010-07-01, 09:23 AM
Actually, the Necrons would go back to their tombs after they wiped out all life, and the C'tan would go back to eating stars. The Necrons want to destroy sentient life only because their gods find soul energy more tasty than star energy.

And that's precisely why they don't want to destroy it. Stars taste awfull compared to delicious humanoid souls. Their ultimate plan is to turn the galaxy into a giant breeding facility to keep the C'tans fed and happy for all eternity.

The main proof of that it's that so far the necrons have done little more than cyrurgical strikes to cripple the armies of the other factions. They hit their targets and they retreat but they don't leave trails of senseless devastation behind them. They aim at leaving the hordes of humanoids leaderless and defenceless so they can take control and feed the C'tans. After all, they almost died because they went into a mindless killing spree last time. They won't make the same mistake twice. And even the eldars know it, and some farseers have glanced upon the future where the necrons rule mankind and feed them to their gods for all eternity.

Wich, mind you, isn't that diferent from the imperium feeding souls to the emprah. Some hundreds of souls a day when you have a population of trillions, nobody will notice any diference.:smalltongue:

Dead_Jester
2010-07-01, 10:24 AM
Well, at least the souls fed to the Emperor have a purpose (fuel is psychic powers so he can create the Astronmicon to most of the time stop vessels form getting lost in the Warp). In the end, it doesn't even matter, because in the Rhana Dandra ( the final confrontation the Eldars prophecised) all living life will be destroyed, so everyone loses (Chaos needs souls to exist, and when Fuegan dies, being the last living being, Chaos will cease to exist as well), so it doesn't really matter if the Necrons destroy all life, because it is only a matter of time before their gods are foodless.

Caxton
2010-07-02, 11:21 PM
After reading alot of Marine fluff, I'm having doubts about whether or not a PrC is at all appropriate, given that the process is very long and requires one to be very young. However, I want to avoid obscene LA's wherever possible, especially for the Emperor's Finest. What do you guys think?

Dead_Jester
2010-07-03, 07:37 AM
After reading alot of Marine fluff, I'm having doubts about whether or not a PrC is at all appropriate, given that the process is very long and requires one to be very young. However, I want to avoid obscene LA's wherever possible, especially for the Emperor's Finest. What do you guys think?

Make it a base race (human subtype), class (space marine) or classes (maybe scout, apothecary, battle brother, techmarine, psyker, etc). Then add PrCs for the specializations (captain, emperor's champion, Librarian, Terminator, Chaplain), and for the different Chapters (Deathwatch kill-team, Ultramarine Tyranic War Veteran, Blood Angel Crimson Guard, Dark Angel Interrogator Chaplain, Space Wolves Rune and Wolf Priests, Iron Hand Iron Father, etc). Small bonuses should be feats. The bonuses from the bioengineering appear during the neophyte's training, so give them gradually in the firs few levels of any Space Marine base class.

Still, as I said earlier, WH40k works better with Gestalt because everybody has (or wants) a lot of LA.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-03, 08:13 PM
After reading alot of Marine fluff, I'm having doubts about whether or not a PrC is at all appropriate, given that the process is very long and requires one to be very young. However, I want to avoid obscene LA's wherever possible, especially for the Emperor's Finest. What do you guys think?

I personally don't want to play a space marine, though Gestalt would work. However, your joe guardsman will be Warrior 1//Commoner 1. Not exactly fun to play :smallbiggrin:

Dante

Ashtagon
2010-07-04, 02:25 AM
I personally don't want to play a space marine, though Gestalt would work. However, your joe guardsman will be Warrior 1//Commoner 1. Not exactly fun to play :smallbiggrin:

Dante

Guardsman would definitely be warrior at a minimum, not commoner. Warrior applies to pretty much any guy with NPC only class levels who should at least theoretically expect to face hostiles and be expected 9at least by his superiors) to fight back.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-04, 04:50 AM
Guardsman would definitely be warrior at a minimum, not commoner. Warrior applies to pretty much any guy with NPC only class levels who should at least theoretically expect to face hostiles and be expected 9at least by his superiors) to fight back.

As in Gestalt, Warrior one side, Commoner the other. Kasarkin would be Fighter 1//Commoner 1.

Sergent: Warrior 2//Commoner 1/Marshal 1
Priest: Paladin 1//Marshal 1
Psyker: Psion 1//Warrior 1
Primaris Psyker: Psion 6//Fighter 3/Warrior 1/Marshal 2
Veterans: Warrior 2//Commoner 1/Scout or Ranger 1
Snipers: Scout 1/Commoner 1


Dante

Ashtagon
2010-07-04, 05:21 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would even a guardsman have commoner levels?

Dead_Jester
2010-07-04, 05:43 AM
As in Gestalt, Warrior one side, Commoner the other. Kasarkin would be Fighter 1//Commoner 1.

Sergent: Warrior 2//Commoner 1/Marshal 1
Priest: Paladin 1//Marshal 1
Psyker: Psion 1//Warrior 1
Primaris Psyker: Psion 6//Fighter 3/Warrior 1/Marshal 2
Veterans: Warrior 2//Commoner 1/Scout or Ranger 1
Snipers: Scout 1/Commoner 1


Dante

Um, no. First of all, not every one in Gestalt has to be gestalt, and Stormtroopers are definitely at least level 3-4 (they have to be able to take on most humanoids in single combat and have a chance to win). Guards aren't Commoner, that's for PDFs. When they get recruited in the IG, they receive extensive training (and it is more than switching their warrior level to fighter). Finally, the standard classes (except maybe Psion) don't really work for WH40k. It would need new base classes.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 05:50 AM
Um, no. First of all, not every one in Gestalt has to be gestalt, and Stormtroopers are definitely at least level 3-4 (they have to be able to take on most humanoids in single combat and have a chance to win).

Hmm, says who? The codex says that the rest of the IG forces kinda despises stormtroopers because most of their "power" comes from them actualy geting proper equipment. And even then if a stormtrooper finds himself face to face with a ork in close combat with your average ork boy my money's on the ork.

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 06:47 AM
Why am I only learning about this thread now? :smallconfused:


After reading alot of Marine fluff, I'm having doubts about whether or not a PrC is at all appropriate, given that the process is very long and requires one to be very young. However, I want to avoid obscene LA's wherever possible, especially for the Emperor's Finest. What do you guys think?

Undoable.

'Space Marine' is a race. They're not human at all. They have three lungs, two hearts, can eat anything they want, spit low-strength acid at will...And that's only the most basic of their abilities, and if they're in their trademark Astartes Power Armour, well, yeah...
In the fluff, Space Marines are ridiculous, and nothing at all like how they are on the 40K table game.

Space Marines are recruited by the age of 10-14, and by 18-20, they are a fully-fledged Marine capable of everything any Marine can do. There's no 'unlocking' abilities or 'Space Marine' mastery. You're a Marine. Now go kill stuff. You can't make a class out of it, because there's nothing to learn except Feats and Skills, you can't learn 'Marine-ness'. A Marine is what you are.

You can't 'PrC' into a Marine, because by then you're too old and unsuitable for genetics. You're a Level 1 Human (subtype: Space Marine), and, obviously there are even subtypes of Space Marine. And have a starting LA of somewhere in the +7 region quite easily. Space Marines will have obscene LA, because they are obscene.
Dark Heresy: Ascension doesn't even let you play as Space Marines.

As for what classes you are, it would depend on what edition of the fluff you're going into, as 2nd, 3rd/4th and 5th Ed all have different modes of how you 'be' a Space Marine. As a rough estimate, it wouldn't be out of place just be a Space Marine and have a Savage Species-like progression where your race is your class.

As for Eldar, and other Xeno races, when I was transposing them into Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, I took their 'game' stat, and multiplied by ten which works very well for that system.
For importing into d20, take their game-stat, add 10. Or just give them their D&D counterpart stats. For example, Eldar get +2 Dex, -2 Con for being 'Elf'.

It's probably debatable if Eldar are 'smarter' than Humans because they are, or because Eldar (Farseers, not the commoners) can see the future and they know what to do in any situation.

Amiel
2010-07-04, 07:02 AM
I actually created a Space Marine 'monster' some time ago, I can re-post it here if you're interested :)

Ashtagon
2010-07-04, 07:09 AM
Brainstorm time of how I'd do it...

Eldar, orks, gobbos, etc are all distinct races. Ditto for space marines. Being a marine is something you are born as (well, genemodded into sometime around puberty, but that's the same thing for game purposes).

marine fluff is vastly entertaining stuff that is way overpowered. Just like the fluff of every other race. Convert things strictly by crunch only. That means, for example, marines don't pee concentrated acid and poop high explosives. The basic marine "race" still probably justifies 2-3 extra Hit Dice though. Much of their reputation does of course come from WH psychology rules and better equipment.

Marines typically have levels in fighter (or some fighter-replacement class; vanilla fighter sucks). Imperial guardsmen are also fighters (same class as the marines). Planetary defence forces are also fighters (notice a pattern here?). Street gangers tend to be warriors.

Most races (including marines) would also have a far number of options for racial substitution levels.

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 07:15 AM
Finally, the standard classes (except maybe Psion) don't really work for WH40k. It would need new base classes.

You mean like Dark Heresy (and Ascension for 'PrCs') and Rogue Trader already did? :smallconfused:
The problem is that each and every race would need different classes.


I actually created a Space Marine 'monster' some time ago, I can re-post it here if you're interested :)

Feel free. I was going to write up a Marine (and, no, it wouldn't be a fair 'monster' at all), but, if someone's already done the work...


Convert things strictly by crunch only. That means, for example, marines don't pee concentrated acid and poop high explosives.

Well then that's not a Marine at all then, now is it? :smallwink:


Also, Catachan Barking Toad... That is all.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 07:42 AM
Feel free. I was going to write up a Marine (and, no, it wouldn't be a fair 'monster' at all), but, if someone's already done the work...


Here it is one of them. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132434)

Mind you, I disagree that space marines are obscene. It demands wildy in the writer. Even when in their power armor marines are taken down by arrows and normal dudes with pointy wooden sticks here and there. Rogal Dorn says a space marine is as strong as 10 regular soldiers, wich in D&D terms is translated in a roughly +7 CR diference, but that's already counting their pimped out equipment, training and probably some racial HD as in the class above.

Plus LA+7 would make them plainly unplayable, wich goes against the purpose of this thread. If space marines are suposed to be godlike beings that steamroll over everything not in power armor what would be the purpose of stating them? NPC marines would either TPK the party or solve any problem by themselves if we took that route.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken chaos forces have been known to marinify adult people. Heck, the emperor himself did it to some of the friends of the primarchs. Risky and with nasty side effects but doable.

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 07:59 AM
Here it is one of them. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132434)

That'd do it. ECL 4 before Class Levels.
However, given that a Space Marine is 8-10 feet tall (without armour), I'd put them as Large creatures, myself.


If space marines are suposed to be godlike beings that steamroll over everything not in power armor what would be the purpose of stating them?

There isn't. That's why Dark Heresy, Ascension and Rogue Trader don't let you play them. Space Marine characters are near-universally banned from play in Inquisitor because they're so good, etc.

Don't be surprised when Deathwatch comes out and says
"Space Marines are equivalent to a Rank 7 Ascension or Rogue Trader character."
I know I wont be.


NPC marines would either TPK the party or solve any problem by themselves if we took that route.

A Dark Heresy module has you fight a Space Marine at the end. The party rarely wins. Given that he can kill you with a single punch. Which fits the fluff exactly, by the way.


Plus, if I'm not mistaken chaos forces have been known to marinify adult people [...] Risky and with nasty side effects but doable.

Isn't the success rate even lower than standard Marines? Which is about 2% for 10 year olds. Chaos/Warp-assistance may also play a part, but, that probably falls under 'nasty side effects'.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 08:08 AM
That'd do it. ECL 4 before Class Levels.
However, given that a Space Marine is 8-10 feet tall (without armour), I'd put them as Large creatures, myself.

Well, that's one of the parts that really doesn't make sense in the fluff, because marines are suposed to be fighting in places built for normal humanoids. How come marines aren't always geting stuck in every tunnel, making every passage under their foot colapse and hiting their heads in the ceilings all the time?



There isn't. That's why Dark Heresy, Ascension and Rogue Trader don't let you play them. Space Marine characters are near-universally banned from play in Inquisitor because they're so good, etc.

Don't be surprised when Deathwatch comes out and says
"Space Marines are equivalent to a Rank 7 Ascension or Rogue Trader character."
I know I wont be.

A Dark Heresy module has you fight a Space Marine at the end. The party rarely wins.

Yes, but like you yourself admited once Dark Heresy inflates even more the power of space marines. Like their bare punches being stronger than plasma pistol shots (wich in turn are known to be able to one-shot marines). So either marines are able to rip apart power armor with their bare hands, or we admit Dark Heresy pimps marines too much and we use more reliable fluff sources. Like the codexes.



Isn't the success rate even lower than standard Marines? Which is about 2% for 10 year olds. Chaos/Warp-assistance may also play a part, but, that probably falls under 'nasty side effects'.

Each of the Legions has now nominated aspirants seeking to throw themselves upon our mercy in the vain hope that we may deem them worthy to join our ranks. Those loyal to the shrunken corpse on Terra still cling to their own processes by which perhaps one in a hundred neophytes may survive to become a battle brother. The methods I have developed over the last millennia are more stringent, for we must be pure in our hatred and hard of heart, body and soul. Fewer than one in every thousand survive, and I strive each day to lengthen these odds still further.

The Forbidden Writings of Fabius Bile

So yes, even fewer sucess rate, but what kind of self-respecting PC doesn't have some death-challenging experience in his background?:smalltongue:

Ashtagon
2010-07-04, 08:08 AM
That'd do it. ECL 4 before Class Levels.
However, given that a Space Marine is 8-10 feet tall (without armour), I'd put them as Large creatures, myself.

Maybe the fluff says that; I haven't checked (the miniatures certainly don't reflect that size). But crunchwise, they are not "large targets"; they are the same size for WH rules purposes as regular humans.

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 08:16 AM
How come marines aren't always geting stuck in every tunnel, making every passage under their foot colapse and hiting their heads in the ceilings all the time?

I don't write for GW. If I did, I'd make sure that I included a Marine Oslecamo who frequently found himself stuck in door-jambs. :smallwink:


So either marines are able to rip apart power armor with their bare hands

They can. Remember that time in the Grey Knights series when the Space Marine ran through multiple brick walls like the Juggernaut? On the table top, a Marine can tear a hole in a tank.


or we admit Dark Heresy pimps marines too much and we use more reliable fluff sources. Like the codexes.

Escept that Dark Heresy is reliable. At least for most of it. The Codecies aren't necessarily reliable either. Which are you using, 1st? 2nd? 3rd/4th? 5th? It does make a difference. Still, Punching the average Joe human in the head and insta-crushing his skull sounds like exactly what Space Marines can do.


But crunchwise, they are not "large targets"; they are the same size for WH rules purposes as regular humans.

Again, it seems like you're not making Space Marines. You're making something that's fair. Which Space Marines - inherently - aren't. If you want a Space Marine, you take all the penalties that go with it. Like being a large target. Hell, you're a Space Marine, you can take it.

I want to play a 9 foot tall engine of destruction. If I can do that, I don't care about the size modifier to my AC. Especially if I have Astartes Power Armour, and the ability to instantly stop bleeding and resist massive damage, etc.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 08:27 AM
They can. Remember that time in the Grey Knights series when the Space Marine ran through multiple brick walls like the Juggernaut?

Ah, you mean the series where Grey Knights aren't brainwashed machines and have deep philosophical discussions between them that would make any proper black templar try to kill them in the spot for heresy? Surely not biased towards the marines at all.:smallwink:

Now remember all those Imperial Armor volumes where marines need to use melta bombs to breach trough walls?



On the table top, a Marine can tear a hole in a tank.

Unless he has a power fist or he's hiting an ork trukk(wich is more of an engine and four wheels than a tank), he really can't. He can make a moss in the back armor at best that results in secondary damage. He's better off using his krak grenades.

Chaos daemons meanwhile has a whole squad of marines charging a grinding engine (that daemon cyborg thingy) and they end up all butchered whitout even scratching it's armor.



Escept that Dark Heresy is reliable. At least for most of it. The Codecies aren't necessarily reliable either. Which are you using, 1st? 2nd? 3rd/4th? 5th? It does make a difference.

The latest codexes of each faction would be the fairest. This gives us chaos marines afraid of imperial guard mortars, space marines unable to hurt a grinding engine (whitout specialized equipment at least) and other much more reliable stuff than "why do space marines use power weapons if they can already rip apart anything with their bare hands?"

Ashtagon
2010-07-04, 08:29 AM
Again, it seems like you're not making Space Marines. You're making something that's fair. Which Space Marines - inherently - aren't. If you want a Space Marine, you take all the penalties that go with it. Like being a large target. Hell, you're a Space Marine, you can take it.

I want to play a 9 foot tall engine of destruction. If I can do that, I don't care about the size modifier to my AC. Especially if I have Astartes Power Armour, and the ability to instantly stop bleeding and resist massive damage, etc.

Oh, I am making space marines. But the difference is that you are making space marines that reflect the fluff; I would rather make space marines that reflect the crunch. The two are very different animals.

I've said this many times before, but it bears repeating: GW's fluff and crunch for any given individual, unit, creature, race, or whatever, are two entirely different sets of realities that are only dimly connected.

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 08:33 AM
Ah, you mean the series where Grey Knights aren't brainwashed machines and have deep philosophical discussions between them that would make any proper black templar try to kill them in the spot for heresy? Surely not biased towards the marines at all.:smallwink:

They have the philosophical discussions with their Chaplain. And that's what he's there for. Not with each other.

And they are brainwashed. Except the very few who have 'problems' with the brainwashing and develop reasoning abilities (like the protagonist). These Marines who aren't 100% brainwashed are the GK's leaders. The ability to ask questions is what makes a GK Commander. If you can't ask questions or reason, then you're a grunt. Insofar as Grey Knights even have grunts.

Haven't I been over this before?


He can make a moss in the back armor at best that results in secondary damage. He's better off using his krak grenades.

Sure. A grenade will always beat an unarmed punch. But, the fact remains that Marines can still do it.


The latest codexes of each faction would be the fairest. This gives us chaos marines afraid of imperial guard mortars,

...So much for being Fear Incarnate. Or Fearless like the Codex says and therefore immune to Pinning and Casualty checks which the Mortars do. Or which parts of the Codecies are we to believe? They're supposed to be reliable after all.


Oh, I am making space marines. But the difference is that you are making space marines that reflect the fluff; I would rather make space marines that reflect the crunch. The two are very different animals.

So, 'watered-down' Space Marines?

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 08:42 AM
Except they are brainwashed. Except the very few who have 'problems' with the brainwashing and develop reasoning abilities (like the protagonist). These Marines who aren't 100% brainwashed are the GK's leaders. The ability to ask questions is what makes a GK Commander.

Says that book. By the rest of the fluff however the ability to ask questions it's what opens the doors for chaos. And Grey Knights above all space marines can't afford that kind of risk. If a grey knight has been brainwashed and it's still asking awkward questions, chainsword to the neck and move on to the next recruit. That's how they managed to keep a perfect 0 traitors score. Because chaos is the only true answer, better to don't ask questions.



Sure. A grenade will always beat an unarmed punch. But, the fact remains that Marines can still do it.

No, they can't. By crunch they can score glanging hits and by fluff I don't recally a single situation like that.



...So much for being Fear Incarnate. Or Fearless like the Codex says and therefore immune to Pinning and Casualty checks which the Mortars do. Or which parts of the Codecies are we to believe? They're supposed to be reliable after all.

Well, there's a small diference between "fearless" and "suicidical". The guardsmen had several heavy weapons besides the mortars and even if the berzekers couldn't be pinned they ended up deciding it was best to get out of line of sight and wait for the guardsmen to stop the barrage to recharge their weapons rather than keep charging and die all before reaching melee.

On the other hand, when Khark appears and starts chopping them not a single one of them runs away and a berzeker actually willingly acepts his fate, showing true fearlness (he couldn't outrun or beat Kharn, so better acept his fate).:smallwink:

Cheesegear
2010-07-04, 08:50 AM
Says that book. By the rest of the fluff however the ability to ask questions it's what opens the doors for chaos. And Grey Knights above all space marines can't afford that kind of risk.

They kind of can, since each and every Grey Knight is tattooed with wards and marks designed to ward off Chaos. Not to mention all the other crap found on their armour itself. And, because they are brainwashed, they never take that final step anyway, and come up with the 'right answer' (keep fighting, no matter the cost) anyway. Because they're brainwashed to come up with that answer.

Then you have the Exorcists, which are a less extreme version of Grey Knights because the Inquisition can make more of them.

Then there's all that crap in Salamander about the division of the Company which doesn't lead to much. Same in Sons of Dorn. In The Inquisition War, Lexandro (an Imperial Fist) asked a bunch of questions, and he ended up being the most pious out of all them.

Then there's the Soul Drinkers series, which actually gives you GrimDark poisoning when you read it. So, I'll give you this one.

Rogal Dorn himself wanted to know answers to questions. And he never turned to Chaos. Potentially where the idea for the 'Dornian Heresy' came from...

I'll stop here before this turns into the fluff thread.


By crunch they can score glanging hits and by fluff I don't recally a single situation like that.

Fair enough. A Space Marine can't kill a tank in Dark Heresy (apparently that's my goto source, so let's stick with that) without Grenades. But, he can still put his fist through your forehead easily enough. And he could easily pass a strength check to break a hole in a wall.

And then Ashtagon wants to make crunch-specific Marines, rather than Fluff-Marines, so Marines can put their fist through an engine block...Which is immobilising or tearing the tracks off or something similar. I never said Marines can destory a tank, merely 'put a hole in it'.

Dead_Jester
2010-07-04, 04:13 PM
I've said this many times before, but it bears repeating: GW's fluff and crunch for any given individual, unit, creature, race, or whatever, are two entirely different sets of realities that are only dimly connected.

Worse, the fluff is completely variable. Sometimes, Space Marines are just your run of the mill Übersoldner, and in other works they are more like dreadnoughts than power armored super-soldiers, and those variation happen in the same edition (often in the same book).

As for taking information from Dark Heresy, remember that the stats differ from the normal game, because DH, even if it's Grimdark, is still a heroic role playing game, so the characters are naturally better than the "regular" units found in the tabletop game.

Caxton
2010-07-04, 06:09 PM
Honestly I'm leaning towards a Savage Species type class now. I don't want there to be a template because I think the LA would be sky high. That said, I think gestalt is a wonderful idea for 40k...with one major concern.

Eldar. For Eldar, gestalt seems extremely un-fluffy. They are supposed to focus on one path until they abandon it, or become lost in it. To have an eldar be two classes at the same time, well thats would not fit at all. There should never be a Farseer/Autarch.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-04, 08:13 PM
@Caxton, You've got to remember. People take classes in DnD not always for the fluff reasons. For example, I may want to play a telekenetic warrior. In gestalt, I'd be a psion//Psychic warrior. It doesn't mean I am those two classes exaclty. It just means I've selected two sets of rules to represent my vision.

Several people take rogue levels to represent a sniper, while others may take levels of Druid to represent a shaman.

If an eldar was gestalted as a, say, Ranger 4//Scout 3/Expert 1, that doesn't mean that eldar is a Warrior of the wild who has an animal companion and is a scout who runs around dealing nice damage and is a Blacksmith. It means that the Eldar represented by said classes is a Pathfinder.

Don't feel that taking classes means you are something. Particluarly in gestalt. Psion could be used to represent a wizard who is supremely adaptable in scaling his powers. Duskblade can represent a cleric of war. Heck, even a Barbarian could be a monk who enters a state of supreme focus, allowing her to smash things and move faster and be more agile (ferocity variant)

Dante

Zellic Solis
2010-07-04, 11:02 PM
Okay folks, since people are once more making up crap for which they have no idea, here's how you become a space marine.

One, you attract the attention of a chapter. This varies quite a bit. For Space Wolves, simply surviving the Death World of Fenris is enough to qualify you for possible membership. For others you might have to be a twenty generation noble. Regardless you will be a badass. So if you were to actually attempt to make Space Marines a PrC then make one for each chapter because their criteria varies quite a bit.

So you get picked up by a chapter. You prove yourself. Next, in general, you get invested with the emperor's gene seed. Then, you will probably die. Most do as the prospect's body wrestles with the gene seed. If you survive, most chapters send you as a scout. Why? Because as rare as gene infused recruits are the legendary power armor of the Space Marines is rarer. So after being a scout (some chapters do things differently) for a while and proving you have what it takes to survive you become a standard Space Marine.

Being a space marine is basically being a standardized mutant, like astropaths. Space Marines have internal organs and adaptations that allow them to interact with their armor. Yes, if a normal person puts on space marine armor they will probably be ripped apart. As space marines advance they get tougher, stronger, and more inhuman. They may look "normal" but eventually they become capable of wielding even more formidable terminator armor. That armor is virtually permanent.

Eventually a space marine becomes dependent on their armor. Their body basically becomes so 'enhanced' they can't survive on their own. At that point they die of the adaptations or they become sealed up in a dreadnought. And that would probably be the pinnacle of any space marine progression. The exception, of course, are the primarchs of each chapter who have been invested with the emperor's pure gene seed and are above such unfortunate weaknesses.

This it why they're coming out with an Astartes book. To cover the extreme end of combat in Dark Heresy.

Cheesegear
2010-07-05, 04:08 AM
so the characters are naturally better than the "regular" units found in the tabletop game.

No. No they're not. Dark Heresy hates the players. Dark Heresy is Dark.


Eventually a space marine becomes dependent on their armor. Their body basically becomes so 'enhanced' they can't survive on their own.

Source? There are truckloads of cases where Marines are seen without their armour. Up to and including the most recent Codecies, most of the recent novels, most of the old novels...Well, everywhere.

Dead_Jester
2010-07-05, 05:25 AM
Eldar. For Eldar, gestalt seems extremely un-fluffy. They are supposed to focus on one path until they abandon it, or become lost in it. To have an eldar be two classes at the same time, well thats would not fit at all. There should never be a Farseer/Autarch.

You could make both the Farseer and Autarch classes Prcs (which they should be, because they are extremely specialized roles, and being both would be like saying that a Space Marine is Chief Librarian and Force Commander). The other side could still be advancing the base class, be filled with LA, or advance another base class.

And as for Dark Heresy units being the equivalent of normal units, just consider the fact that they scale to face harder challenges. The challenges rise in level with them, so they do end up being stronger, just not noticeably.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-05, 07:43 PM
Okay folks, since people are once more making up crap for which they have no idea, here's how you become a space marine.


Please desist with that kind of language, It makes me feel upset.


You could make both the Farseer and Autarch classes Prcs (which they should be, because they are extremely specialized roles, and being both would be like saying that a Space Marine is Chief Librarian and Force Commander). The other side could still be advancing the base class, be filled with LA, or advance another base class.


Ditto. However, remember people that taking levels in "Fighter" does not mean you are a "Fighter" as such. It just means mechanically you have a certain set of stats. You could actually be a Scout or Artileriest, or even an engineer. Don't get locked into thinking that the class is the concept, the class is merely a stating of something, which you adapt to your concept.

Dante

Dead_Jester
2010-07-05, 07:50 PM
Ditto. However, remember people that taking levels in "Fighter" does not mean you are a "Fighter" as such. It just means mechanically you have a certain set of stats. You could actually be a Scout or Artileriest, or even an engineer. Don't get locked into thinking that the class is the concept, the class is merely a stating of something, which you adapt to your concept.

Actually, I don't really think the standard classes really work for WH40k. You could probably approximate it with lots of new feats (like making psykers - psions, soldiers - fighters and so on), but I think that most archetypes are too different form standard d&d classes to represented by them (try making an Ork Mekboy with base classes).

Cheesegear
2010-07-06, 05:27 AM
Wait, hang on...Are we making d20 classes under the d20 rules (Modern/Future,etc.) or are we making 'D&D 3.5' classes? It appears people are trying to make 'Fighters', which gives me the impression of a 3.5 Class or the like. As was pretty much all my previous posts talking about Savage-Species progressions and such...

This whole time I've been trying to make a 3.5 Class.

I could make a d20 Future Space Marine in about an hour. Given that the thread is "WH40K d20"...Personally, I prefer the Star Wars SAGA d20, Space Marines wouldn't be quite so powerful under that setting, and psyking would probably fall under the Jedi rules, etc.

But, d20 Modern/Future will work. Just not quite as well, and Space Marines will be b0rked.

Ashtagon
2010-07-06, 05:44 AM
New Feat: Imperial Geneseed

You have received the benefits of the geneseed normally used to create space marines. Many receive this benediction and do not survive; spending a feat on this allows you to survive the procedure.

* Prerequisites: human only.
* Benefit: Additionally, you may re-roll a failed saving throw once per day. You make the re-roll after you have seen the result of the die roll, but before you know if it was a success or not.
* Special: Space marines (the race) receive this free free at 1st level.
* Special: Certain prestige classes associated with space marines require this feat as a prerequisite.

This justifies the high mortality rate for geneseed implants (stupid hoomie didn't spend a feat), creates a theoretical entry point for regular humans to enter space marine prestige classes, and justifies how humans who receive the implant later in life just aren't as good as humans who received the full monty during puberty.

"space marine trooper" might be a prestige class with a very low entry threshold (say, bab +2 and imperial geneseed feat), and contain prerequisites for some of teh very advanced marine specialists.

Cheesegear
2010-07-06, 06:23 AM
"space marine trooper" might be a prestige class with a very low entry threshold (say, bab +2 and imperial geneseed feat), and contain prerequisites for some of teh very advanced marine specialists.

Again, if we're using d20 Rules (not D&D 3.5), I could have this done in about an hour. I'm using 4th Ed. fluff because that makes the most sense, where a Scout can choose what 'squad designation' he goes into after he earns his Power Armour and can freely change (ask for a transfer) when he gets bored, it also makes the most sense for an RPG system.

'Space Marine' class. Like most d20 SW Saga classes (Like I said, I like SAGA), has four Talent Trees. d20 Modern/Future classes only have 3 Talent Trees. Like I said, Space Marines work well in SAGA.

Scout Talent Tree
Tactical Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)
Assault Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)
Devastator Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)

Then you've got your Advanced Classes (because we're playing d20, and that's what PrCs are called)
Sternguard (requires two Tactical Talents), includes Terminator Talents. For the purposes of RPG, we'll just give them Talents that increase their Attack and Damage rolls against certain things with a Bolter, rather than have them reliant on special ammo - which would suck.
"Half your abilities don't work because you don't have access to - or you ran out of - the rare and specific item that allows your class to work. Fail. OHAI Green Star Adept, didn't see you there."

Vanguard (requires two Assault Talents), includes Assault Terminator Talents.

Basically, you're a Tactical/Assault/Devastator Marine by Level 5. And a Sternguard or Vanguard by Level 9. And Terminator by...Level 13 if we include the 'need two Talents' rule.
Maybe make it level 10 for Veterans, and have BAB requirements.

Devastators don't really need an Advanced Class (maybe they could go into Sternguard if they wanted to), because the Feats in d20 that deal with Heavy Machine Guns (like Strafe) are pretty damn good.

Space Marines start with the Armour Proficiency (Light) and Armour Proficiency (Medium) feats. And can gain Armour Proficiency (Powered) as a bonus feat when they are allowed bonus feats. However, Sternguard and Vanguard would have Required Feat; Armour Proficiency (Powered).

Yes, this means you can stay a Scout forever if you so choose. Precedent; Namaan, Cyrus, Telion and the Scout Captain in Sons of Dorn whose name escapes me. We know for a fact that Scouts can have Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters, and can run riot with Combat Blades if they want to.

Apothecary and Techmarine are also viable Advanced Classes. As would 'Honour Guard'.
'Librarian', is something you would need to start at Level 1. So, I'll table Librarians for now, at least until we can agree on the 'normal' Space Marine.

...Yes, I'm aware that it takes decades to upgrade from Scout to [anything], and I'm also aware that it takes even longer than that to be a Veteran. Still, RPG rules.

Caxton
2010-07-08, 05:24 PM
Hmmm...
I think we should vote on what the system should be...as it will color every part of the system.

Personally I think that D20 Future is the way to go. However, my experience with Saga is limited (non-existent actually), so take that how you will.

Lord Blace
2010-07-08, 06:21 PM
My vote goes in favor of saga. I haven't any real experience with it, but reading through the rules, I like it.

Cheesegear
2010-07-09, 02:15 AM
My vote goes in favor of saga. I haven't any real experience with it, but reading through the rules, I like it.

SAGA is more high-powered than d20 Modern/Future, primarily because it deals with Star Wars. Space Marines will fit in well with that power level. So will everything else.

I'll have a SAGA Marine up over the next few days for you guys to have a look over. I might have to steal a few feats from Modern/Future to get some things in that I want, but, we'll see.

whoiam
2010-07-09, 06:25 AM
Let me know when you decide on your preferred system. I may be able to find the time to adapt my version of the Tyranids to it:)

imp_fireball
2010-07-09, 11:01 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157569

Yah, that's a thread I made. Check it out and PEACH if you like.

To the OP: You can incorporate it into whatever campaign you like. All I need is credit. :smallbiggrin:


How come marines aren't always geting stuck in every tunnel, making every passage under their foot colapse and hiting their heads in the ceilings all the time?

So how about slight build? And powerful build? Yes, probably the first time I've ever seen a creature get both, but meh.

imp_fireball
2010-07-09, 11:06 PM
Again, if we're using d20 Rules (not D&D 3.5), I could have this done in about an hour. I'm using 4th Ed. fluff because that makes the most sense, where a Scout can choose what 'squad designation' he goes into after he earns his Power Armour and can freely change (ask for a transfer) when he gets bored, it also makes the most sense for an RPG system.

'Space Marine' class. Like most d20 SW Saga classes (Like I said, I like SAGA), has four Talent Trees. d20 Modern/Future classes only have 3 Talent Trees. Like I said, Space Marines work well in SAGA.

Scout Talent Tree
Tactical Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)
Assault Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)
Devastator Talent Tree (requires two from Scout)

Then you've got your Advanced Classes (because we're playing d20, and that's what PrCs are called)
Sternguard (requires two Tactical Talents), includes Terminator Talents. For the purposes of RPG, we'll just give them Talents that increase their Attack and Damage rolls against certain things with a Bolter, rather than have them reliant on special ammo - which would suck.
"Half your abilities don't work because you don't have access to - or you ran out of - the rare and specific item that allows your class to work. Fail. OHAI Green Star Adept, didn't see you there."

Vanguard (requires two Assault Talents), includes Assault Terminator Talents.

Basically, you're a Tactical/Assault/Devastator Marine by Level 5. And a Sternguard or Vanguard by Level 9. And Terminator by...Level 13 if we include the 'need two Talents' rule.
Maybe make it level 10 for Veterans, and have BAB requirements.

Devastators don't really need an Advanced Class (maybe they could go into Sternguard if they wanted to), because the Feats in d20 that deal with Heavy Machine Guns (like Strafe) are pretty damn good.

Space Marines start with the Armour Proficiency (Light) and Armour Proficiency (Medium) feats. And can gain Armour Proficiency (Powered) as a bonus feat when they are allowed bonus feats. However, Sternguard and Vanguard would have Required Feat; Armour Proficiency (Powered).

Yes, this means you can stay a Scout forever if you so choose. Precedent; Namaan, Cyrus, Telion and the Scout Captain in Sons of Dorn whose name escapes me. We know for a fact that Scouts can have Missile Launchers and Heavy Bolters, and can run riot with Combat Blades if they want to.

Apothecary and Techmarine are also viable Advanced Classes. As would 'Honour Guard'.
'Librarian', is something you would need to start at Level 1. So, I'll table Librarians for now, at least until we can agree on the 'normal' Space Marine.

...Yes, I'm aware that it takes decades to upgrade from Scout to [anything], and I'm also aware that it takes even longer than that to be a Veteran. Still, RPG rules.

Granted, all of this can be worked into 3.5. Earning gear for free can be incorporated into organizations - ranks in organizations designate positions (scout, marine, etc.; you can choose to voluntarily stay in one position and then invest your feats and class levels to suit that position however you won't rank up - this suits the fluff fairly well, even though it limits creativity).

Space Marine is not a prestige class but either a template, a subrace or a blood line (I put it at blood line currently, which probably varies according to chapter - or maybe space marine just buffs racial salient abilities like the lycanthropy of space wolves).

Cheesegear
2010-07-09, 11:34 PM
Granted, all of this can be worked into 3.5.

It has been (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132434). It's just much harder to do, whilst still maintaining a non-ridiculous LA and ECL.

d20 Modern/Future and SAGA are much easier systems to use and Space Marines fit into the system quite nicely.
Considering the thread is 'WH40K d20' and not 'WH40K D&D3.5'...


Space Marine is not a prestige class but either a template, a subrace or a blood line

We've already established, previously in the thread that Space Marine is both a race and a class. As per something akin to Savage Species.

Second, the type is Human (Space Marine). However, Space Marines are not even human at all, and even have subtypes within themselves, so, it's much easier to have Space Marine as it's own race. And have your race as Space Marine (Ultramarine).

If Space Marine is both a race, and a class. Space Marines (race) may only enter Space Marine (the class) at Level 1. That pretty much makes it a Savage Species class.
Certain Prestige/Advanced Classes will also have Prerequisite: Space Marine.

imp_fireball
2010-07-10, 04:14 AM
Eh... they don't work out so well as races (inevitably you'll just be granting them monster levels, AKA racial hit dice - same as 'space marine' class; note that space marines have a variety of roles so this idea is totally inflexible). That's why I proposed blood lines.

Players should be allowed to form their own chapters by applying templates/other races to space marine blood line/etc.


It's just much harder to do, whilst still maintaining a non-ridiculous LA and ECL.

Umm... no... blood lines, man. Blood lines.

Cheesegear
2010-07-10, 09:15 AM
That's why I proposed blood lines.

Umm... no... blood lines, man. Blood lines.

The problem with Blood Lines, is that you 'unlock' abilities as you gain levels. Which isn't the case. Once a Marine puts on his Black Carapace, he's a Marine. From the Chapter Master to the newest Scout, all Marines have the same inherent abilities. Meaning, that the only thing a Space Marine actually learns are Skills, Feats, and Class Abilities.

Their Racical Abilties, they have from the word 'Go!'. Unlike Blood Lines, that 'unlock' more and more power/racial abilities as they grow.

Blood Lines also take levels. As in, maybe there's something else you could/should be taking that isn't 'Space Marine', meaning, you can be a Space Marine (bloodline)...But not an actual Space Marine at all?

imp_fireball
2010-07-10, 10:16 PM
The problem with Blood Lines, is that you 'unlock' abilities as you gain levels. Which isn't the case. Once a Marine puts on his Black Carapace, he's a Marine. From the Chapter Master to the newest Scout, all Marines have the same inherent abilities. Meaning, that the only thing a Space Marine actually learns are Skills, Feats, and Class Abilities.

Their Racical Abilties, they have from the word 'Go!'. Unlike Blood Lines, that 'unlock' more and more power/racial abilities as they grow.

Blood Lines also take levels. As in, maybe there's something else you could/should be taking that isn't 'Space Marine', meaning, you can be a Space Marine (bloodline)...But not an actual Space Marine at all?

Not necessarily - a space marine blood line could cap out very early. Like maybe 10th level instead of 20th. Granted it still takes about 3 levels (or more if you want like a hardcore marine with everything) of the blood line to get the full benefits of being a space marine.

Basically, you are forced to take a whole bunch of blood line levels early or you're screwed, which makes sense - space marine's train early, but they're much better then ECL 1. So ECL 1 space marine isn't going to happen (you need to be at least level 2 to take the first level in the blood line since the first level gives you HD).

If you want racial abilities from the word 'Go!' just make a space marine of a level equivalent to what they'd need to be to get everything from the blood line.

Part of their training also precludes actual training rather then genetic augmentations - the blood line levels would just be the augmentations.


As in, maybe there's something else you could/should be taking that isn't 'Space Marine', meaning, you can be a Space Marine (bloodline)...But not an actual Space Marine at all?

Yes, true. But the blood line might have prerequisites like 'must have been selected by a chapter, etc.'. The flexibility of this is what's appreciated by D&D. Granted, a GM can easily rule otherwise.

If you want to be a chaos marine - take the space marine blood line, old fashioned imperium equipment, and some sort of template that makes you chaos.

Cheesegear
2010-07-10, 11:57 PM
Part of their training also precludes actual training rather then genetic augmentations - the blood line levels would just be the augmentations.

All the training is done around and before the time they get the Black Carapace. By the time they're 18 (adventuring age), and get the BC, they head straight out into the field as Scouts.

Their training is pretty much complete by the time they start adventuring.

imp_fireball
2010-07-11, 02:26 AM
All the training is done around and before the time they get the Black Carapace. By the time they're 18 (adventuring age), and get the BC, they head straight out into the field as Scouts.

Their training is pretty much complete by the time they start adventuring.

Actually humans begin at age 16.

Also, I don't think their black carapace fully develops into they're well into having served as scouts. I think I read that somewhere.

Cheesegear
2010-07-11, 06:47 AM
Also, I don't think their black carapace fully develops into they're well into having served as scouts. I think I read that somewhere.

And it's totally wrong. Dark Angels and Space Wolves are two notable Chapters that shove their fresh recruits straight into Power Armour.

imp_fireball
2010-07-12, 01:28 AM
And it's totally wrong. Dark Angels and Space Wolves are two notable Chapters that shove their fresh recruits straight into Power Armour.

So? Still, no reason why you shouldn't use blood lines.

Caxton
2010-07-15, 06:26 AM
SO...it seems that SAGA is the most popular choice...

I will have to actually learn the system before I can get some serious homebrewing done. If anyone cares to do a Space Marine, since that seems to be the focus of our discussions, I'd be much obliged. I've hit a bit of a wall and really want to work on Eldar.

Cheesegear
2010-07-15, 06:39 AM
If anyone cares to do a Space Marine, since that seems to be the focus of our discussions, I'd be much obliged.

I've actually got most of one done. And it's only just barely more powerful than other things in the SAGA System. But, I had to include everything, otherwise it just wouldn't be a Marine.

However, I hit a snag when I was working out weapon proficiencies. I tried to 'group' things, but it just didn't work.

Caxton
2010-07-15, 07:14 AM
One idea I had was to group weapons by race. Each race would have simple, martial, and exotic weapons. Non-exotic weapons of a different race would be exotic for the character (for example, a human would treat a shuriken launcher as exotic). Is that your problem?

Cheesegear
2010-07-15, 08:03 PM
Non-exotic weapons of a different race would be exotic for the character (for example, a human would treat a shuriken launcher as exotic). Is that your problem?

Remember we're running d20. Which is not the same as D&D 3.5. d20 is harder.

My problem; First of all, we have to group weapons in the first place. I suppose we could use the Dark Heresy system. But, if you've ever played that or looked at the System before, you find that you can't really use all that many weapons. Rogue Trader took it to a stupid extreme with 'Universal' training, which is retarded.

Then you've got things like Power Weapons and Plasma Pistols. Yeah, they're 'standard', in the sense that in the 40K tabletop game, just about everyone has them. But, in the fluff (and in Dark Heresy), Power Weapons and Plasma Pistols are reserved for badasses.
Or, then you've got Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Multi-Meltas, Plasma Cannons, Heavy Flamers, etc. Do you know how to use all of them at once? Hell no, you don't.

...Or, even your Basic Eldar Guardian. Power Weapons and Witchblades under the System you propose, Caxton, would be pretty standard for them. Despite the fact that only two or three Eldar units carry Power Weapons at all, and only one unit carries Witchblades.

The SAGA System has Weapon Groups, Weapons Proficiency (Pistols) and Weapons Proficiency (Rifles) and stuff. Which may as well be Universal Training, which is retarded. And the d20 System has 'Personal Firearms Proficiency', which is pretty much 'everything'.

imp_fireball
2010-07-15, 09:38 PM
However, I hit a snag when I was working out weapon proficiencies. I tried to 'group' things, but it just didn't work.

How about give them no proficiencies and just make them a bloodline?

You can accord actual proficiencies to race and background of the character themselves. So a human fighter/space marine would treat all weapons from their background as martial and simple but other weapons specific to different races would be exotic.


Remember we're running d20. Which is not the same as D&D 3.5. d20 is harder.


D&D invented d20. Also, don't just do d20. Do D&D. It invented it. Period.


which is pretty much 'everything'.

Except automatic weapons, which are supposedly advanced - if only because the states doesn't legalize them (so they require extra training, wooo scary!)

Cheesegear
2010-07-15, 10:03 PM
How about give them no proficiencies and just make them a bloodline?

Because we've been over this.


So a human fighter/space marine would treat all weapons from their background as martial and simple but other weapons specific to different races would be exotic.

Caxton already said that and I just explained that that wouldn't work without being horrendously broken.


D&D invented d20. Also, don't just do d20. Do D&D.

d20 is a better system. And the title of the Thread. A 3.5'd 40k is different.


Except automatic weapons, which are supposedly advanced

And that's the problem. A lot of the weapons in 40K are semi-auto/auto. And a Scout starts with two of them.

Caxton
2010-07-15, 11:26 PM
My intention was not to have things such as Power Weapons be considered Martial Weapons at all. In fact, it seems to me that under this system every race would have far more exotic weapons than martial, and this seems fine to me.

As an example
Simple (Human) would be things like knives, and perhaps even the humble lasgun.

Martial (Human) would cover the bases of what standard soldiers can use. Such things as bolters, flamers, grenade launchers and such would be included.

Exotic (Human) would probably include weapons that your everyday guardsman could never obtain, but might be used by his superiors. Power Weapons, as it were, would certainly fit in this category. Melta Guns do present me a bit of a snag though, as they seem more exotic, but in fact a guardsman can have one. However, my inclination is to say that most weapons that are "special" on the tabletop are Exotic in D20.

As for Eldar Guardians, no way an artist or musician or whatnot would blow a feat on an Exotic weapon! Therefore, it is reasonable to say that in the standard training given to all Eldar he learned the martial weapons of the race, such as the Shuri Launcher.

imp_fireball
2010-07-16, 02:41 AM
Because we've been over this.

Yah, and you gave me some pretty childish reasons for why.

You'll have to repeat yourself, because I seriously can't make heads nor tails of your logic.


And that's the problem. A lot of the weapons in 40K are semi-auto/auto. And a Scout starts with two of them.

No that's not a problem. I was only explaining why modern sucks.


Exotic (Human) would probably include weapons that your everyday guardsman could never obtain, but might be used by his superiors. Power Weapons, as it were, would certainly fit in this category. Melta Guns do present me a bit of a snag though, as they seem more exotic, but in fact a guardsman can have one. However, my inclination is to say that most weapons that are "special" on the tabletop are Exotic in D20.

You don't even have to make them exotic. You can just say that everything is covered by being a member of a certain organization which imposes prerequisites in order to get into - merchants sell absolute garbage and so being in an organization is pretty much necessary to get anything good.

Only then are you allowed to obtain certain weapons since the organization provides (and occasionally the loot does too) and not the merchant. Pros and cons of such an hierarchy system.

The whole chapter business is organizational restrictions under D&D.

Cheesegear
2010-07-16, 02:46 AM
Exotic (Human) would probably include weapons that your everyday guardsman could never obtain, but might be used by his superiors. Power Weapons, as it were, would certainly fit in this category.

So would Bolters, actually. Might just go ahead and say that Astartes treat Bolt Pistols and Boltguns as Martial weapons. But, it still doesn't allow training for Heavy weapons.

I vote for Simple, Basic, Heavy and Exotic. Four categories of weapons.


Yah, and you gave me some pretty childish reasons for why.

Childish? "Because it makes no sense."

Bloodlines are something that you don't even have to take. At any given point in your career, you can simply just 'stop' being a Space Marine and start taking levels in something else. Which is impossible. Once a Marine, always a Marine. And, at that point, the 'bloodline' becomes a Class.

And the inverse works too. A level 12 Guardsman can suddenly turn around and say he has a Space Marine bloodline, and 'magically' get all the gifts of the 'bloodline' without having any super-soldier training or genetic implants.

We're running d20/Saga. Not D&D 3.5. There are no LAs (and if there are, there aren't many). Bloodlines are not needed.

imp_fireball
2010-07-16, 03:38 AM
A level 12 Guardsman can suddenly turn around and say he has a Space Marine bloodline, and 'magically' get all the gifts of the 'bloodline' without having any super-soldier training or genetic implants.

Of course he can - but the bloodline could easily have prerequisites (ie. must spend time away from adventuring for X months to receive implants).

Also, a fighter can suddenly become a sorceror and have awakened powers too.

I don't think this is any different. The above can be prevented by the GM as can this (ie. character does not have the right background).

Also space marines do stop being space marines, but the GM can easily impose adverse consequences - Ie. other space marines begin hunting them down.

Also, not every space marine is a complete space marine, hence the blood line levels.


There are no LAs (and if there are, there aren't many).

Blood lines remove the LAs too. My bloodline for space orks still awards humanoid HD for every level taken.

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 04:46 AM
Once a Marine, always a Marine.

Chaos marines and the 99 recruits in each 100 that end up as failures after being injected with the geneseed would like a word with you.:smalltongue:

More like, once a marine, 0,5% chance of keeping being a marine.

There's also that sisters of battle comic, where an inquisitor sucessfully infiltrates a black templars force for weeks by disguising as a battle brother. Considering that he could use all the SM equipment whitout any aparent problem then it was strongly sugested he was an ex-marine.

Cheesegear
2010-07-16, 07:32 AM
Considering that he could use all the SM equipment whitout any apparent problem then it was strongly sugested he was an ex-marine.

I have no problems with the idea a Space Marine-turned-Inquisitor. It's the Inquisitor-turned-Space Marine that bothers me. And is exactly what Bloodlines allows.

Oslecamo
2010-07-16, 08:13 AM
I have no problems with the idea a Space Marine-turned-Inquisitor. It's the Inquisitor-turned-Space Marine that bothers me. And is exactly what Bloodlines allows.

Again, in 40K there's several instances of adults being subjected to marinification. Doing it in young ones is safer and produces better results (relatively speaking), but you can do it adults too when conditions are tight.

Heck, the primarch of the dark angels had his fellow warriors from his homeworld semi-marinified. They didn't become as strong as normal marines but still stronger than normal humies.

This is represented by partially taking the bloodline.

Caxton
2010-07-21, 06:04 AM
Going to get my hands on SAGA soon. In the meantime, I'd like to hear opinions on how psykers could fit into the system. As a Star Wars based system, I imagine it uses the force in some way, and I wonder if this could be converted?

Cheesegear
2010-07-21, 08:56 AM
As a Star Wars based system, I imagine it uses the force in some way, and I wonder if this could be converted?

Easily.

SAGA System...
Psykers begin play with a number of psychic powers equal to 1 + their Wisdom Modifier. A character gains additional powers by selecting the Psychic Training feat (new feat), or everytime they increase their Wisdom modifier.

Psychic Powers are like a deck of cards. You can only use each psychic power once, and then that power goes into a 'discard pile' and may not be used again for at least one minute. You can use other powers as you choose.

If you rest for one minute. You may use the same Psychic Power again.
If you roll a natural 20 on your Use the Warp (new skill) check, you regain all your psychic powers immediately.
You can spend a Fate Point (the 40K equivalent of Action Points) to immediately regain all your powers.
Some unique abilities (such as the Psychic Focus talent) allow you to regain 'spent' psychic powers in other ways.


If you roll a natural 9 on your Use the Warp check, gribblies come to eat your face...This part isn't in the rules. But, it's appropriate.


The Dark Heresy system is 'roll under your Willpower (d100), don't roll a 9 on either d10 or gribblies eat your face'. The more difficult the power is to use, the more penalties you get.
Willpower is essentially Wisdom.

Caxton
2010-07-21, 12:06 PM
Why is it only 9? Could this be proof that Tzeentch is the most powerful Chaos God!?!?

Cheesegear
2010-07-21, 04:56 PM
Why is it only 9? Could this be proof that Tzeentch is the most powerful Chaos God!?!?

You mean you didn't know that already? Tzeentch only lets Khorne think he's most powerful God because Khorne is an idiot. Just as Planned.

9, rather than 1, is the number for critical fail.

Fail
2010-07-21, 05:26 PM
May be of interest. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49873)

Marcus9
2013-03-07, 04:09 PM
I was looking around, and I found this, looks interesting.
http://www.reocities.com/Area51/neptune/5963/
Also has ideas for non Imperium races.

kattkin
2015-05-28, 09:12 PM
I found this discussion via google and, at the risk of being accused of necromancy, I wanted to post this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16L7NUHMnnRkY3CLvctVZfY4_z3JadLABgpV5SfMvlDE/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone is still interested in this sort of thing! ^_^