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theos911
2010-06-25, 05:53 PM
I'm very new to psionics, but I like the whole idea. I have access to EPH and CP. I have read these a bit, but I'm not fully understanding the whole system. I was wondering if someone could give me a basic rundown of how the system actually works, and the dos and don'ts of it. I'd also really appreciate a semi-class rundown, sorta on the lines of wizard owns because it knows all the spells, but cant' cast as often, sorcerer gets lots of spells but only knows a few. Stuff like that, but for the psionic classes.
Thank you much,
Theos

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 05:55 PM
THOU SHALT NOT SPEND MORE PP ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS!!!!!

There, thats everything you need to know. Any other questions?

PS: poke around teh intarwebz, there are a couple psionic handbooks around. Read em.

EDIT: READ ME! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8342.0)

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 06:12 PM
The classes!

Psion - Intelligence-based full manifester. Knows lots of powers, compared to most classes. Every Psion must specialise in a discipline of powers, and gains access to special powers other Psions and Wilders can't gain access to without a feat. Like Wizards, they gain a bonus feat at first level and every five levels.

Wilder - Charisma-based full manifester. Knows hardly any powers, but can boost them to obscene levels with her Wild Surge class ability. Draws powers from the same list as the Psion.

Psychic Warrior - Wisdom-based "Gish"-type. Learns more powers than a Wilder, but has less power points to spend on them. Most of his powers augment his combat abilities. They gain bonus feats quite quickly, and unlike Fighters they can actually spend them on useful things.

Ardent - Wisdom-based full manifester. Gains access to 'mantles', which give him a special ability like a Cleric's domains, and determine which powers he can use. Unlike other manifesters, his maximum power level is tied directly to his manifester level, rather than his class level, so he multiclasses very well. He has a mix of Psion and Psychic Warrior powers, so he can fill several roles.

Divine Mind - Like a Paladin, but even worse. Also gets mantles, but doesn't even learn to manifest powers until level four-ish. However, he gets auras from his mantles that can do a number of different things. Not very good, though.

Soulknife - Barely qualifies as a psionic character. His main class ability is 'has a magic weapon'. Considering there's an alternate class feature for Psychic Warriors which gives them the same ability, the class is pretty worthless.

Erudite - Intelligence-based full manifester. Knows the highest number of powers in the game, drawing them from the Psion/Wilder list. While all manifesters can borrow powers from other members of their class, he can permanently learn them by spending XP. However, he only gets a limited number of unique powers per day, so the more powers he manifests, the more limited his options become. Finally, he gets the same bonus feats as a Psion.

Lurk - A sort of 'psychic Rogue'. He gets powers to manifest, and also has 'augments' that he can spend power points on, which can do nifty things like add sneak attack damage or deal ability damage, or let him attack incorporeal foes with a non-magical fork.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-25, 06:12 PM
Psionics is similar to spontaneous arcane magic, except that instead of spell slots you get power points. You have a certain number of points to use per day, but you can spend them on any power you know (provided you have enough points). As noted above, you cannot spend more points manifesting a single power than your manifester level, which is like your caster level for psionics.

Many psionic powers are written differently than similar arcane spells, which in most cases makes the psionic versions much more versatile. For example, if you know the energy ray power, you can choose whichever type of energy you want it to be (fire, cold, electricity, or sonic) each time you use it. Many powers also have the ability to be augmented, which makes them more powerful or enhances their effects at the cost of spending extra power points. (Remember not to spend more PP than your manifester level!)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-25, 06:24 PM
Psionics are what sorcerers should have been from start, as far as a power source system counts.

They're spells by any other word. They have a fixed cost, spell effects and such. If you ever played a game that uses "Mana", then there's your full knowledge of what power points are.
Ultimate rule: You can only spend as much as your own caster level in power points on a single power.
Some spells can be "Augmented", which means paying more than their base cost to increase their effects. That's pretty much it.
Psions are akin to wizards, wilders are sort of chaos magi, psychic warriors are magical knights...

Optimystik
2010-06-25, 06:26 PM
I'll add the Psychic Rogue, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) the psionic skillmonkey, to Yuki_Akuma's very nice list.

The Lurk is a weak, yet passable alternative, but functions more like an assassin than a rogue.

Also, two 3rd-party books are very helpful and widely-accepted by the psionics community: Hyperconscious (written by Bruce Cordell, the guy who wrote the XPH and CPsi) and Untapped Potential (which builds on Hyperconscious.) The latter even has its own SRD (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/home) with brand new base classes (e.g. Marksman, Thoughtsinger and Society Mind) and prestige classes.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-25, 06:28 PM
Psionic powers also stay useful for long periods. The augmentation system lets a psionic character use a power, like say energy-ray, from level 1 to level 20 without it ever being not useful. It's like gaining a spell and all of that spell's enhanced formes all at once. For exmaple mage armor and greater mage armor are both equivelent to inertal armor used at various levels of augmentation.

Highly augemented powers cost more though, and the manifester level cap on cost per power caps your maximum augmentation. Still a level 20 psion can blow 20 points to deal 20d6 with energy ray.

The powers really take off with metapsionics. These cost less than metamagic due to the nature of the power point system. Two power points are worth a lot less than 2 spell levels. Now most matapsionics also require you to expand your "psionic focus" so meta'd powers must be used spareingly.

Psionics is said to blast better than magic, due to being able to scale all of the blasting powers, and can be a good deal more stealthy due to all psionics being basicly both still and silent. A concentration check can make them invisable to. That energy ray didn't come from you, that guy just burst into flame by himself!

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 06:30 PM
...I always forget the Lurk.

Also, is it just me, or do people seem to forget the whole "use allied psionic manifesters as power stones" thing a lot? It's a pretty nifty ability.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-25, 06:34 PM
...I always forget the Lurk.

Also, is it just me, or do people seem to forget the whole "use allied psionic manifesters as power stones" thing a lot? It's a pretty nifty ability.

There's that too, and telepaths/psychic warriors get to Gattai.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 06:34 PM
Now that I think about it, borrowing powers makes the Euridte and the Wilder a pretty scary combination.

Optimystik
2010-06-25, 06:35 PM
...I always forget the Lurk.

Also, is it just me, or do people seem to forget the whole "use allied psionic manifesters as power stones" thing a lot? It's a pretty nifty ability.

It's particularly nifty for Wilders, who usually have more PP on hand than powers to spend them on. Especially when they can augment said powers free of charge.

Ardents can also make great use of it - just about every power in the game is on their list (with liberal use of Pimp My Mantle.)

Ninja'ed on Wilder scariness.


There's that too, and telepaths/psychic warriors get to Gattai.

Actually, all Psions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) get to as well, and Ardents/Lurks too :smalltongue:

sreservoir
2010-06-25, 06:36 PM
it becomes incredibly useful when you have a bunch of psions in your party and the DM has banned erudite. otherwise, you might as well go erudite.

theos911
2010-06-25, 06:39 PM
Well, this was incredibly helpful. Thank you for your input everyone. I learned a good deal.:smallbiggrin:

Siosilvar
2010-06-25, 06:40 PM
Yuki: Would that be "Manifest an Unknown Power From Another's Powers Known"?

Requires a Psicraft check at a DC of 15 + highest level power to access, then a check at 15 + power's level to understand, then another check at 15 + power's level to castmanifest.


Since it cannot be stated enough, you can never spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Overchannel allows you to raise your manifester level at the cost of damage to yourself.

Displays can be removed with a concentration check at a DC of 15 + power's level.

Optimystik
2010-06-25, 06:40 PM
it becomes incredibly useful when you have a bunch of psions in your party and the DM has banned erudite. otherwise, you might as well go erudite.

Psion and Erudite are about equal. The variants give Erudite the edge, but only at later levels.

Given that the table gives them abysmal UPD and RAW gives them astounding UPD, I like to compromise with the DM and give them the Ardent PK progression as UPD instead. (2 at 1st-level, 3 at second and so on up to 21 UPD at 20; still less than a Psion but more than a Wilder.)

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 06:44 PM
Yuki: Would that be "Manifest an Unknown Power From Another's Powers Known"?

Requires a Psicraft check at a DC of 15 + highest level power to access, then a check at 15 + power's level to understand, then another check at 15 + power's level to castmanifest.

Oh no, a Psicraft check with a maximum DC of 24. However will I make that.

Maybe by having Psicraft as a class skill and having five ranks in Knowledge: Psionics?

And remember, the DC 24 check won't be required until level 17. At level 2 it'll be DC 16... Oh no! I have to roll a 9 (if my Intelligence is only 10)!

Snake-Aes
2010-06-25, 06:47 PM
Oh no, a Psicraft check with a maximum DC of 24. However will I make that.

Maybe by having Psicraft as a class skill and having five ranks in Knowledge: Psionics?

Plus the dreadful minimum of 20 ranks in it by the time you face a DC 24...

Keld Denar
2010-06-25, 07:17 PM
Oh, just in case other people haven't mentioned it....you can never spend more PP on a power than you have MLs. :smallcool:

You can only spend PP on a single power as long as the number of PP you spend doesn't exceed your ML. If you had a ML of 8, you could manifest a single standard action power for up to 8 PP, then manifest a swift power for up to 8 PP, because they are seperate powers. If you somehow increased your ML, such as through the use of Overchannel, Wild Surge, or other ability, you could spend more PP, but the cap is still your enhanced ML.

The only exception to this is powers linked with the Link Power feat. If you have a ML of 8, you can manifest one power for 5 and one for 3, but you couldn't manifest one for 5 and another for 4, because that would be 9 total PP and your ML is only 8. This is stated in the feat though.

Dacia Brabant
2010-06-25, 09:51 PM
Another important factor about psionics that needs mentioning is the Psionic Focus mechanic.

You'll find that there are some feats and class abilities that require you to gain and maintain Psionic Focus, a modestly difficult DC 20 Concentration check that requires you to have at least 1 psionic power point in reserve. And then there are feats that require you to expend your Psionic Focus, such as Metapsionic feats which are similar to Metamagic feats (a note on Metapsionic feats: they are treated as augmenting your power by whatever its power point cost is, so you can't exceed your Manifester Level when you apply a Metapsionic feat to a power).

If you know about Metamagic you know it's powerful, and Metapsionics are powerful as well, but they're also tightly controlled. The key is, gaining Psionic Focus is a full-round action unless you pick up the Psionic Meditation feat to change it to a move action, so you're forced to be judicious with anything that expends Psionic Focus. You can gain a second Focus by taking the Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment feats, and Psicrystals are handy anyway for other tricks so it's a good idea to have one anyway, but this means the most Metapsionic feats you can ever apply to a single power is 2. (There's a way to get a third Psionic Focus but this requires going deep into the very feat-intensive Psychic Weapon Master prestige class so it's not recommended outside of a particular build.)

It's a more balanced mechanic than Metamagic and still very useful, but it's one more thing that you have to keep track of, too.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-25, 09:58 PM
Psionic focus is in fact the only reason Soulknives have power points.

Also, Metapsionic feats are not treated as augmenting your power at all. It's just, well, you can't spend more power points on a power than you have manifester levels. Doesn't matter whether it's augmented or not.

This is very important considering how some augmentations are worded.

Dacia Brabant
2010-06-25, 10:07 PM
Psionic focus is in fact the only reason Soulknives have power points.

I believe they also need at least 1 power point to manifest their mind blade.


Also, Metapsionic feats are not treated as augmenting your power at all. It's just, well, you can't spend more power points on a power than you have manifester levels. Doesn't matter whether it's augmented or not.

This is very important considering how some augmentations are worded.

Good point, what with scaling saving throws based on additional power points spent for some powers, you're right. I struggled with how else to define it, but ultimately Metapsionics are simply adding to the base power point cost of the power, not the same as augmenting.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-25, 10:20 PM
The classes!

Erudite - Intelligence-based full manifester. Knows the highest number of powers in the game, drawing them from the Psion/Wilder list. While all manifesters can borrow powers from other members of their class, he can permanently learn them by spending XP. However, he only gets a limited number of unique powers per day, so the more powers he manifests, the more limited his options become. Finally, he gets the same bonus feats as a Psion.


They handle as different beasts but isn't the Erudite actually a variant of the Psion from a rules standpoint?

Dacia Brabant
2010-06-25, 10:34 PM
Oops, wrong thread. :smallredface:

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-25, 10:41 PM
Metapsionics are more tightly regulated than metamagic, as previously stated (since you can have, at most, 2 metapsionic feats by using the Psicrystal Containment feat), but they're also 1 level cheaper than their equivalent metamagic feats.

Take Extend Power, for instance. It costs +2 power points to manifest, plus psionic focus. +2 pp is the equivalent of +1 spell level, where Extend Spell is +2 spell levels. This means you can access metapsionics earlier and cheaper than metamagic, but since powers require augmentation to improve (rather than free-scaling spells), metapsionics are a bit weaker, in a lot of cases. For instance, you can't Empower a fireball until level 9, whereupon it deals 9d6x1.5 points of damage (for an average of 47.25), and takes up a 5th level slot. A max-augmented Empowered electric energy ball (the psionic equivalent of fireball), costs 7+2 pp (also the equivalent of a 5th level slot) and the expenditure of your psionic focus, but only deals 7d6x1.5 points of damage (for 36.75 on average), though it can be used two whole levels earlier than a mage is capable of doing.

It gets interesting when you start playing with the energy types, though, since they gain different bonuses which depend on which type you're using. If you used fire or cold in the example above, the 9th level max-augmented Empowered energy ball would be dealing (7d6+7)x1.5 points of damage (which is also, on average, 47.25). This tends to equalize them on pure damage, though psionics' ability to apply energy types and metapsionic feats, and choosing how much or how little to augment by vastly increases its blasting versatility in the long run. Especially when compared to a sorcerer.

Hope that wasn't too confusticating.

Hague
2010-06-26, 12:17 AM
Additionally, don't forget that you can only take PP from ONE single source. That means you can't draw 4 PP from yourself and 4 from a cognizance crystal. You must draw all 8 of them from either yourself or a crystal or another source.

If you do use Soulknives a lot, be sure to pick up Dragon #341 and read the Mind's Eye pt. 1 in the Wizard's DnD 3.5 archive. Those Mind's Eye articles have lots of nice alternative class features. I particularly like the one that Nomads get that makes them more resistant to time-affective magic and powers.

The biggest advantage that Soulknives have is that they have access to their Mindblade even in magic/psionic-dead zones. This means that even in areas like the center of the Outlands, you can have 'magic' weapons while even gods and artifacts are non-functional.

Oh, and don't use the Metamind PrC. There's never any instance where it might be vaguely useful. Oh, and be mindful to let PCs know that Psicrystals are functionally objects, so they are much easier to care for than familiars.

Draz74
2010-06-26, 12:40 AM
Take Extend Power, for instance. It costs +2 power points to manifest, plus psionic focus. +2 pp is the equivalent of +1 spell level, where Extend Spell is +2 spell levels.

Bad example ... Extend Spell is only +1 spell level.

But for many metapsionic feats (not all), you are correct about the 1-level-cheaper thing.

Flickerdart
2010-06-26, 12:44 AM
There is a lot of psionics material online in the Mind's Eye articles on the WotC site. Make sure that the material you're looking at is 3.5 and not 3.0 though. If it mentions attack/defense modes or effects that only function while the user has more than X PP, it's 3.0. Augmentation and all classes aside from Psion/Psychic Warrior/Soulknife/Pyrokineticist/Illithid Slayer are 3.5 for sure.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-26, 12:59 AM
Bad example ... Extend Spell is only +1 spell level.

But for many metapsionic feats (not all), you are correct about the 1-level-cheaper thing.Why did I say Extend? I meant Empower. Oops.

Of course, Extend Power is +0 pp/focus, whereas Extend Spell is +1 level, so the paradigm does hold.

Also note that pp pool from race, classes, feats, and other sources, but only if they're innate to you, so you can manifest using all the pp you have available. But you still can't manifest from more than one source per manifestation, as noted above.

Your powers known are separated by class, though, as are all of the manifester levels you may have.

And metaminds ARE useful...if you're going into epic and have Practiced Manifester.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-26, 07:01 AM
Yes, your PP pool is your PP pool. Manifesters aren't like spellcasters where their spell slots are rigidly separated.

This is why manifesters multiclass ridiculously well. Especially Ardents.

Endarire
2010-06-26, 07:42 AM
What is the most powerful psionic power? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power&post_num=1#332035638)

theos911
2010-06-26, 07:46 AM
I always thought the meditant was pretty cool. It was suggested in my unknown, but awesome thread here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8664054&postcount=53)and it got a good deal of positive feedback. The only drawback I see if the intensive feat requirements.