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ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:47 PM
How to make your fistful of d6's count, every time

So you have your character which has a whole fist full of d6's of precision-based damage output. You roll so many d6's on your damage roll that even the GM is intimidated by the sheer heft of your dice bag.

Unless he points and laughs, and does one of any number of things to deny you the ability to apply that precision-based damage.

Which really, really sucks, if that is your main damage output.

So what we need here is the methodologies necessary to ensure that every attack, every time, is GOING to be applying that precision-based damage output.

There's three main ways to negate precision-based damage.

1) Situational. You need to meet certain conditions to apply precision-based damage. If these conditions are denied you, then your damage output is laughable rather than intimidating.

2) Immunity. There's a slew of things that are immune to precision-based damage. But in D&D, immunities are merely... guidelines... so to speak.

3) Concealment. Yea, if they have some kind of concealment miss chance, you can't apply precision-based damage output. This sucks, but fortunately, there's plenty of ways to bypass this as well.

So, let's go over these and how to counter them...

Situational Ethics
Or, how to set up the situation so you can ethically apply your damage and shank his spleen

There's three main types of precision-based damage

1) Sneak Attack. I'd say over 2/3 of our precision-based damage dealers use this. Maybe more. You've got two ways to trigger this. a) Denied Dex-Bonus to AC, and b) Flanked. Everything else all boils down to these two conditions.

2) Sudden Strike. Very rare, not many bother with it, because it isn't as versatile as Sneak Attack. The only way to trigger it is Denied Dex Bonus.

3) Skirmish. Ahh, the lovely Scout. Generally, if you aren't Sneak Attacking, you are doing this. Triggers any time you move more than 10'. That's it. Even if he's got his dex bonus to AC, even if he's not flanked. You don't have to worry about Improved Uncanny Dodge or any of that nonsense. All you need to do is figure out how to move that far while getting enough attacks in to make your reduced damage pool (compared to most Sneak Attack builds) count.

So, you have Denied Dex Bonus for Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack, Flanked for Sneak Attack, and moving more than 10' for Skirmish.

Deny, Deny, Deny the Psychopathic Egomaniac

So, how can we make an opponent Denied Dex Bonus to AC? Well, if he's got Uncanny Dodge, the answer is 'not very easily, but not impossible', but we'll get to that in a moment.

This is a list of all conditions which will make an opponent loose his dex bonus to AC. Specific class abilities et al come later in this guide.

1) Flat-Footed. Invis, won initiative, feinted, having less than 5 ranks in Balance when someone tosses a Grease under your feet... lots of ways to apply this. Uncanny Dodge negates it.

2) Helpless

3) Pinned

4) Cowering

5) Invisible (but Uncanny Dodge still protects)

6) Blinded (opponents treated as Invisible)

7) Grappling (vs anyone NOT the person he is grappling with)

8) Stunned

If I missed something, let me know so I can add it.

So, even if the opponent has Uncanny Dodge, you've got some options. Stunned, Cowering, Grappled (have your buddy grapple him), or Helpless will still work.

Flanktastic

Flanking is defined as being directly opposite from an ally across an opponent. If you can draw a straight line base-to-base through the center of the creature, you're flanking.

Unfortunately, if he's got Improved Uncanny Dodge, you are likely screwed, unless you simply have that many Rogue levels.

There's plenty of ways to make flanking easier, though.

Adaptive Flanker (PhBII). Makes it easier to Flank.
Island of Blades (Stance) (ToB). This is why a lot of melee rogues dip Swordsage. Well, this and Assassin's Stance for more d6's. If you are adjacent to him, and an ally is as well, you flank. It don't get much easier.
Clarion Call (ToB). The Tactical Feat, not the maneuver. DC 20 Intimidate check to declare an opponent flanked for 1 minute. If you can't shank him in that time, you should retire your bag of d6's and go play a barbarian. Even better, this bypasses Improved Uncanny Dodge, since you aren't trying to flank him, you are applying the Flanked condition.

Anything that increases your mobility on the combat field will also help you get into flanking position easier.

Moving for Moshing

If you are a Scout, you need to move 10' to trigger your Skirmish. However, you also want a Full Attack, if possible, to max out your damage output. Here's how to do this:

1) Pounce. Full attack and close the distance all in the same action.

2) Travel Devotion. You'll want a one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric so you can spend Turn Attempts to trigger this rather than limited to 1/day, as well as trading in your domain so you don't have to blow a feat. Free move actions = moving more than 10'

3) Sparring Dummy of the Master. Move 10' in your 5' step

4) Greater Manyshot. The Swift Hunter's general method. Feat-intensive if you aren't a Ranger-based build, but it lets you apply precision-based damage on each shot, giving you multiple shots on a move action.

Others will be added as they are mentioned

You may also consult this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) list by PersonMan on how to get extra movement or pouncing.

I'm Immune to Immunity to Me
Or, how to turn 'no' into 'yes' and make them pay for the privilege.

Many things you will run into in your travels will be immune to precision-based damage. For some unknown reason, those who become particularly proficient at precision-based puncturing tend to run into them a LOT. Perhaps it is simply natural selection, seeing as you've killed off everything else. Perhaps it's a strange phenomenon which needs to be explored. Perhaps it's the GM tearing his hair out trying to find something you won't one-round...

You know the list... Undead and Constructs head the list as far as most common, with Plants and Oozes and Elementals also occasionally showing up.

Wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike for undead and constructs respectively, will allow you to apply precision-based damage anyways. There are also Greater Weapon Cystals that will do the job for a single weapon, although it has to be a +3 Enhancement Bonus or higher to plug in. Not equivalent, it actually has to have that enhancement bonus. And no, GMW won't count. That's a lot more expensive than the 10k (for undead) or 6k (for constructs) the crystals themselves cost

And really, unless your GM is just bound and determined to screw you over, that's pretty much all you need, as 99% of everything immune to precision-based damage is either Construct or Undead.

For that last 1%, however, there are solutions.

Swift Hunter, for Scouts. Take the aforementioned monster types as Favored Enemy. Now you can Skirmish them. Have a nice day. Go straight to damage, do not apply Immunity, do not collect $200.

Vinestrike. Wand thereof can apply precision-based damage to plants. Rare when they show up, but hey, it's 750 for a wand. Suck it up.

For Elementals and Oozes, there's generally a better way to deal with them than beating on them. Fortunately, you have UMD, therefore you can apply the appropriate elemental flavor with a toy of some kind. Wands may include the following: Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, (lesser) Orb of [element]... fun part is, you can sneak attack normally with all of these, so if you got something in more armor than you can penetrate, these also let you get Touch Attacks for your precision-based damage.



Reveal the Concealed
Or, how to make sure the blighty little bugger stays put long enough for you to shank their spleen

Concealment modifiers suck. Mostly because they can be so dang easy to get, and completely shut you down. Fortunately, there are ways to bypass/negate this problem. But let us look at the most common methods of getting Concealment

1) Magic/Toys. Blink, Blur, Displacement... there's lot of them. There's a saying on these boards 'melee can't have nice things', referring to the fact that there's a spell for every darn thing out there. In this case, there's several.

Fortunately, the solution to all of them is generally the same.

For any illusion, glamor, or other effect which works to fool the senses in some way, there is True Sight.

Pierce Magical Concealment is rather feat-intensive, but also does the job

2) Terrain-based. Hiding behind a tree, that kind of thing. If you are ranged, Improved Precise Shot will let you negate anything less than total concealment. Otherwise, moving around to get around the blocking object will generally work.

Final Thoughts
This will be a 'growing document', and I will be adding many tips, tricks, and tactics to this guide as readers contribute information. Right now, it's a bit bare-bones, but I'm sure the community as a whole can come in to beef things up a bit

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:49 PM
This is a list of feats which help you apply your fistful of d6's.

I have color-coded the feats in terms of usefulness, as follows:

Blue means this works very well or in many different circumstances
Green means it is powerful for the situation it was designed for, which comes up enough that it's worth getting
Orange means it's effective enough, I guess, if you don't have anything better to do. But either the conditions it counters is rare, or it isn't very strong
I'm using Red in place of Admiral Akbar's picture of his infamous warning, because it takes up less bandwidth and space. If you see this, steer clear of this feat

Deny Dex-Bonus to AC
Improved Feint (SRD). Feinting makes an opponent flat-footed against your next attack. This lets you do it better. However, it only works for one attack, and takes up a move action, and has feat prerequisites. However, if you've already got Combat Expertise, it can be another trick in your bag
Improved Initiative (SRD) to make sure you do go first
Greater Manyshot (SRD) Pretty handy for ranged precision-dealers. Lets you apply precision-based damage on every shot. Very handy for Scouts without alternate forms of free movement, although feat intensive without Ranger levels for the prerequisites.
Gloom Razor (ToB) It has three options, all of them stink. The first option make a Hide check vs his Spot check or go invis vs him, after he has missed you due to concealment. Now, concealment only gives you, at most, 50% miss chance, mostly you're getting 20%. Not all that common. THEN, it's basically a WORSE version of HiPS, because see invis penetrates. The second option looks nice, until you realize that it only works on ONE attack. Since I *HOPE* you will be attacking more than once at an opponent, this is nearly worthless. The only use is the last option, which can let you get more than 10' of movement for free, by making DC20 tumble checks to go around your opponent for free. However, you should have other, far more effective, methods of doing this.

Danger Sense (CAdv). Handy if you blow your initiative roll, but starting to get a bit feat intensive at this point
Death Blow(CAdv) If you are CDG'ing, you are applying your precision damage as well, in most cases. This lets you do it quicker. Handy if you are the type to immobilize and CDG your opponents, or if you are cleaning up after your party Batman, but otherwise only very situationally useful.

Flick of the Wrist (CWar) Only works for a single attack. Like Improved Feint, but using Slight of Hand rather than Bluff.

Flanking
Versatile Flanker Nice enough, although I prefer a one-level dip in Swordsage for Island of Blades. Still, it can be used with Assassin's Stance, so it is still decent, although at the cost of two feats.

Immunity
Swift Hunter (CScoun). If you are using Skirmish to deal precision-based damage, this feat is a prerequisite. Yes, it simply is that good.

Movement
Travel Devotion (CChamp) For a Scout, this is why you dip one level of Cloistered Cleric.

Concealment
Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc). If it's magic, and it gives concealment, it doesn't. Feat intensive, but very good. Incidentally, because it explicitly mentions Obscuring Mist, and similar effects, this WILL even work on ANYTHING which is magical in nature. Including Control Weather to make Fog. Yes, it really is that powerful. Any magic or magic item which

Other

Wandstrike(CArc) You hit them with the wand, which deals 1d6 damage, and hits them with the spell. You made an attack roll, and did damage, therefore you may sneak attack with it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:50 PM
This is a list of Class Abilities which help you apply your fistful of d6's.

I have color-coded the feats in terms of usefulness, as follows:

Blue means this works very well or in many different circumstances
Green means it is powerful for the situation it was designed for, which comes up enough that it's worth getting
Orange means it's effective enough, I guess, if you don't have anything better to do. But either the conditions it counters is rare, or it isn't very strong
I'm using Red in place of Admiral Akbar's picture of his infamous warning, because it takes up less bandwidth and space. If you see this, steer clear of this feat

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:51 PM
This is a list of Equipment and Gear which help you apply your fistful of d6's.

I have color-coded the feats in terms of usefulness, as follows:

Blue means this works very well or in many different circumstances
Green means it is powerful for the situation it was designed for, which comes up enough that it's worth getting
Orange means it's effective enough, I guess, if you don't have anything better to do. But either the conditions it counters is rare, or it isn't very strong
I'm using Red in place of Admiral Akbar's picture of his infamous warning, because it takes up less bandwidth and space. If you see this, steer clear of this feat

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:52 PM
This post reserved for combos, tactics, tips, tricks, and example builds demonstrating how best to use effective combinations of the above.

I am done with my reserved posts, feel free to post away

Touchy
2010-06-25, 07:57 PM
You spelled Based wrong.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 07:59 PM
You spelled Based wrong.

Not according to my spell-checker...

Touchy
2010-06-25, 08:03 PM
Not according to my spell-checker...

Precision-baesd Playstyles - Applying your fistfull of d6's.

Also, would you recommend that ranger ACF that swaps animal companions to count yourself as flanking, or is 4 levels of ranger over doing it for a rogue/ranger?

I'm also surprised their was never a ranger/rogue multi-class feat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:06 PM
Precision-baesd Playstyles - Applying your fistfull of d6's.

Ahh, fixed. For some reason, it doesn't seem to use the spell checker in the title field. Log that to 12+ hours on shift + Corporate inspection...

Curmudgeon
2010-06-25, 08:18 PM
This needs a thorough review. For instance: "Training Dummy of the Grandmaster" should be Sparring Dummy of the Master. And Telling Blow adds a third way of triggering sneak attack, and a second way of triggering skirmish.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:25 PM
This needs a thorough review. For instance: "Training Dummy of the Grandmaster" should be Sparring Dummy of the Master. And Telling Blow adds a third way of triggering sneak attack, and a second way of triggering skirmish.

Fixed, and will be added to the feats list as soon as I can compile a list.

It's an exceedingly sub-par method, seeing as how you can set up conditions so easily. But it is worth mentioning in the Feats section.

Zaq
2010-06-25, 08:30 PM
For getting past concealment, I offer either a two-level dip in Incarnate (which has its own benefits), or an investment of two feats (Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra). In either case, your goal is a Crown-bound Diadem of Purelight. See, the Crown bind of the Diadem of Purelight used one of those words that WotC really should know better than to use by now, but doesn't... "any." In this case, it's not horrifically abusable, but it's useful. See, if you bind the Diadem to your crown chakra (which is the easiest chakra), you negate ANY concealment (less than total concealment) within in the radius of the bright light. It explicitly calls out fog as being ineffective against it, so a simple Obscuring Mist doesn't ruin your day. Invisibility still sucks, but you can't have everything.

Now, this does preclude YOU from using any concealment-based tactics, because the brilliantly shining light of a thousand radiant souls doesn't really discriminate, but if your GM just loves putting things in dank dark caves and you don't really need to hide to pull out your bag o' d6s, it's nice. It also prevents your Cloud-happy wizard buddy from accidentally screwing you over. "Here buddy, I've got him on Grease for you! And he's in a Solid Fog, so he can't get out! You love me now, right?"

Koury
2010-06-25, 08:31 PM
You spelled Based wrong.

Also in that vein, fistful has but a single L.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:45 PM
For getting past concealment, I offer either a two-level dip in Incarnate (which has its own benefits), or an investment of two feats (Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra). In either case, your goal is a Crown-bound Diadem of Purelight. See, the Crown bind of the Diadem of Purelight used one of those words that WotC really should know better than to use by now, but doesn't... "any." In this case, it's not horrifically abusable, but it's useful. See, if you bind the Diadem to your crown chakra (which is the easiest chakra), you negate ANY concealment (less than total concealment) within in the radius of the bright light. It explicitly calls out fog as being ineffective against it, so a simple Obscuring Mist doesn't ruin your day. Invisibility still sucks, but you can't have everything.

Now, this does preclude YOU from using any concealment-based tactics, because the brilliantly shining light of a thousand radiant souls doesn't really discriminate, but if your GM just loves putting things in dank dark caves and you don't really need to hide to pull out your bag o' d6s, it's nice. It also prevents your Cloud-happy wizard buddy from accidentally screwing you over. "Here buddy, I've got him on Grease for you! And he's in a Solid Fog, so he can't get out! You love me now, right?"

Hmm... I do not own MoI. The more I hear about it, the more I really think I should correct this lack in my library.

Many builds rely on concealment to be able to apply precision-based damage, so this isn't the 'perfect' solution, but it is exceedingly handy for any build which has other ways of denying dex bonus to AC that don't rely on concealment.

acid_ninja
2010-06-25, 08:57 PM
Wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike are a no-go. According to the SC (p.4) activating a wand is a standard action no matter what the casting time of the spell, so you use a standard action to activate it but it wears off before you can attack (unless you have enough levels in Factotum to use Cunning Surge or have some other way of taking an extra standard action). If you could extend/persist wands (I think there's a feat for the former, the latter would just be broken) you could get it in one shot but that's a lot of investment when there's Penetrating Strike (Dung p. 13) that lets you trade trapsense to deal 1/2 damage when flanking a normally immune foe. Note that this does not help against Dex denied foes, only flanked.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 08:59 PM
Wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike are a no-go. According to the SC (p.4) activating a wand is a standard action no matter what the casting time of the spell, so use a standard action to activate it but it wears off before you can use it. If you could extend/persist wands (I think there's a feat for the former, the latter would just be broken) you could get it in one shot but that's a lot of investment when there's Penetrating Strike (Dung p. 13) that lets you trade trapsense to deal 1/2 damage when flanking a normally immune foe. Note that this does not help against Dex denied foes, only flanked.

Fortunately for us, the Official Errata changed the time for a use-activated magic item to be the same as the time it would take to cast it. Thus using wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike is once again valid.

Touchy
2010-06-25, 08:59 PM
Wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike are a no-go. According to the SC (p.4) activating a wand is a standard action no matter what the casting time of the spell, so use a standard action to activate it but it wears off before you can use it. If you could extend/persist wands (I think there's a feat for the former, the latter would just be broken) you could get it in one shot but that's a lot of investment when there's Penetrating Strike (Dung p. 13) that lets you trade trapsense to deal 1/2 damage when flanking a normally immune foe. Note that this does not help against Dex denied foes, only flanked.

SC?
Spell Compendium?

Edit:
Ninja'd, doesn't matter now.

acid_ninja
2010-06-25, 09:01 PM
Fortunately for us, the Official Errata changed the time for a use-activated magic item to be the same as the time it would take to cast it. Thus using wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike is once again valid.

Can I get a source on that? Not that I don't believe you, just that I really need to buy a wand of wraithstrike for my rogue.<wink>

Edit: Also you mention True Seeing as a way around concealment besides pierce magical concealment. Any ways to get this effect wihtout A) dropping 75k for a gem of true seeing or B) having 7 levels of cleric?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-25, 09:06 PM
Can I get a source on that? Not that I don't believe you, just that I really need to buy a wand of wraithstrike for my rogue.<wink>

Here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) you go.

lsfreak
2010-06-25, 09:50 PM
Here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) you go.

I haven't seen it in any of the errata (not that I've looked hard), but I know the change first went through with Rules Compendium. Despite supposedly not changing anything, it make scrolls and wands activate with the same actions as whatever spell they're based off of. Because of how late it came out and that it was supposedly just a collection of in-place rules, some choose to ignore the changes the Rules Compendium made, but officially, wands and scrolls of gravestrike and friends take swift actions.

nedz
2010-06-26, 04:29 AM
Surely you are forgetting Warlock, or even Wizards with those Fireball thingies.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-26, 05:13 AM
I haven't seen it in any of the errata (not that I've looked hard) That's because the change isn't there.

, but I know the change first went through with Rules Compendium. That's the first and only place.

Endarire
2010-06-27, 04:45 PM
Greater magic weapon counts for augment crystals, but only while the item has at least a +3.

I also hoped you'd bold your color selections to lessen eyestrain.

Blue means this works very well or in many different circumstances
Green means it is powerful for the situation it was designed for, which comes up enough that it's worth getting
Dark orange means it's effective enough, I guess, if you don't have anything better to do. But either the conditions it counters is rare, or it isn't very strong
I'm using Red in place of Admiral Akbar's picture of his infamous warning, because it takes up less bandwidth and space. If you see this, steer clear of this feat

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-27, 07:58 PM
Greater magic weapon counts for augment crystals, but only while the item has at least a +3.

I guess that depends on your GM. Every GM I know, including myself, requires that the base weapon must have that enhancement bonus without buffs for the crystal to attach in the first place. Maybe your GM's are a bit more lenient.


I also hoped you'd bold your color selections to lessen eyestrain.

Blue means this works very well or in many different circumstances
Green means it is powerful for the situation it was designed for, which comes up enough that it's worth getting
Dark orange means it's effective enough, I guess, if you don't have anything better to do. But either the conditions it counters is rare, or it isn't very strong
I'm using Red in place of Admiral Akbar's picture of his infamous warning, because it takes up less bandwidth and space. If you see this, steer clear of this feat

Good idea, I shall do so

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-06-27, 09:10 PM
Wondering why Cloistered Cleric specifically is the preference for Travel Devotion, as opposed to a normal Cleric.

PId6
2010-06-27, 09:22 PM
Wondering why Cloistered Cleric specifically is the preference for Travel Devotion, as opposed to a normal Cleric.
Because it's pretty much strictly better for 1 level dips. More skill points, an extra domain, and all you lose are armor proficiencies. If allowed, you should always take Cloistered over regular Cleric if you're only taking a single level.

Ajadea
2010-06-27, 09:22 PM
For the extra skill points.
EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, a keen rapier or kukri coupled with Telling Blow has a 25% chance of activating sneak attack or skirmish each time you attack. Not bad. I personally like the idea of taking a scout/ranger and dual-wielding 2 keen kukris (or taking the Improved Critical (kukri) feat and saving some money) and then running that much of a higher chance of getting to apply skirmish.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-27, 09:50 PM
For the extra skill points.
EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, a keen rapier or kukri coupled with Telling Blow has a 25% chance of activating sneak attack or skirmish each time you attack. Not bad. I personally like the idea of taking a scout/ranger and dual-wielding 2 keen kukris (or taking the Improved Critical (kukri) feat and saving some money) and then running that much of a higher chance of getting to apply skirmish.

Or just get Pounce through any number of ways and save yourself the feat and gear costs by always activating Skirmish through Pounce.

Because not only are you blowing a feat on Telling Blow, but also EWP: Kukri and possibly Improved Critical: Kukri as well. That's 3 feats invested in this strategy to only give you a 25% chance of activating skirmish, when you can just take a one-level dip to activate it 100% of the time. Your choice.

Honestly, it's more useful for a Ninja with Sudden Strike to get Telling Blow, since it's the hardest method of activating. But even there, a Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment = win.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-06-27, 09:55 PM
And a one-level barbarian dip is all sorts of fun anyways, since Extra Rage and Extend Rage mean you only really need one level to have plenty of anger to throw about, and Whirling Frenzy gives you an extra attack per full attack when you apply your Skirmish.

Ajadea
2010-06-27, 10:01 PM
Kukri's a melee weapon, and a ranger automatically gets proficiency with all of them. Where's Pounce from?

Gametime
2010-06-27, 10:04 PM
For the extra skill points.
EDIT: Ninja'd

Also, a keen rapier or kukri coupled with Telling Blow has a 25% chance of activating sneak attack or skirmish each time you attack. Not bad. I personally like the idea of taking a scout/ranger and dual-wielding 2 keen kukris (or taking the Improved Critical (kukri) feat and saving some money) and then running that much of a higher chance of getting to apply skirmish.

A 28.5% chance, actually, if you hit the target on anything but a 1. Lower hit rates bring that chance down anywhere from "a bit" to "considerably."

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-27, 10:05 PM
Kukri's a melee weapon, and a ranger automatically gets proficiency with all of them. Where's Pounce from?

Hmm... I thought Kukri was exotic for some reason.

Easiest way to Pounce would be a one-level dip in Barbarian. Failing that, Pouncing Strike from ToB works well.

The easiest way would be the Ranger spell Lion's Pounce, since it doesn't cost you anything to gain access to it.

Go back to the 'movement' section of the first post in the guide. Click the link. There's two pages of ways to get extra free movement or pounce

Gametime
2010-06-27, 10:22 PM
Or just get Pounce through any number of ways and save yourself the feat and gear costs by always activating Skirmish through Pounce.

So long as you have a way to disengage without an action or kill the opponent in one shot. Neither is particularly difficult, but you still want to be able to skirmish on the rounds you begin adjacent.


Honestly, it's more useful for a Ninja with Sudden Strike to get Telling Blow, since it's the hardest method of activating. But even there, a Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment = win.

Telling Blow actually doesn't work with sudden strike - it only lists sneak sttack and skirmish. There's that note in the Ninja's section about sudden strike working to qualify for options that require a minimum number of sneak attack dice, but Telling Blow doesn't require a certain number of dice and calls out sneak attack by name beyond the prerequisites anyway.

It's a reasonable houserule, though.

nefele
2010-06-27, 11:23 PM
Bits and pieces.

Bypassing Immunity to Critical Hits:
Penetrating Strike (Rogue ACF, lose trap sense, Dungeonscape) : you can apply half your Sneak Attack damage to immune creatures, but you must flank. This is a bit situational, yet essential. Half sneak attack is immensely better than no sneak attack, it works constantly (when you're naked and without wands, when in an AMF...) and losing Trap Sense costs you nothing anyway.

Bypassing Concealment etc:
Rapier of Unerring Direction (equipment, relic, MIC). The good: it ignores ALL miss chances. Just like that. The bad: you need the True Believer feat, and relics aren't (or shouldn't be) readily available in every game. But at least it's Fharlanghn's relic, whom all Scouts and many sneaky types would plausibly worship.

Denying Dexterity Bonus:
1) Climbing. This is something that will never come up when opponents start flying all over the place. But at early levels, if you have time to prepare and choose the battlefield, terrain is a huge asset. Stand on a cliff, go up the mast, climb up the roof and beckon them to come after you. For ranged sneak attack only, obviously. Beware of their bows, though. :smalltongue:
2) Marbles (A&EG), should be right there with Grease.

Making people Flat-footed (beware of Uncanny Dodge):
Several ToB Maneuvers can do that, but they are standard actions, so full-attacking is out.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1), must succeed on a Concentration check Vs target AC.
Ghost Blade (SH6), no conditions, it just works. However, the text describes "an illusory double of your weapon", so some DMs might rule that True Seeing and the like actually negate it.
Death From Above (TC4), must succeed on a DC 20 Jump check. I'd say it's the most reliable maneuver.
Feral Death Blow (TC9), must succeed on a Jump check Vs target AC.

Also note that there are a crapload of maneuvers which make foes flat-footed after you hit. These are best for your allies though, unless you have a consistent way of taking extra standard actions every time.

Activating Skirmish
1) It's a 3.0 rule, so it might not pass, but if it does: a DC 40 Tumble check allows you to take a 10 (instead of 5) ft step and a full-round action. Strictly speaking, this allows you to full attack with skirmish, but not use Greater Manyshot, which is a standard action. From Oriental Adventures.
2) Belt of Battle (equipment, MIC). Generally, anything that gives you more actions also gives you skirmish.

...
Oh, and I have a question. In my games, when someone with an obscenely high Hide modifier manages to attack while hiding and remain undetected (-20 penalty and all), we consider him an invisible attacker. Would you say that this is within RAW? Reasonable houserule? Common Sense (TM)? Or would you disagree entirely?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-27, 11:34 PM
Bits and pieces.
2) Marbles (A&EG), should be right there with Grease.This makes you flat footed, and only if you have less than 5 ranks in Balance. Just like Grease. Granted, most opponents won't have 5 ranks in Balance, but it is Flat-Footed, so Uncanny Dodge does protect against this.

As for the rest, I will include them when I start updating the equipment/gear section.


...
Oh, and I have a question. In my games, when someone with an obscenely high Hide modifier manages to attack while hiding and remain undetected (-20 penalty and all), we consider him an invisible attacker. Would you say that this is within RAW? Reasonable houserule? Common Sense (TM)? Or would you disagree entirely?

Only if he keeps making his -20 Hide check every time. And not invisible, just hidden. There's a huge difference. You can't use See Invis to see a Hidden character. True Sight doesn't detect a Hidden character. It's actually pretty sweet when you can get your Hide checks up that high. I'd suggest Greater Shadowed to go on your armor, personally, if you can afford the 33k price tag.

nefele
2010-06-27, 11:43 PM
Only if he keeps making his -20 Hide check every time. And not invisible, just hidden. There's a huge difference. You can't use See Invis to see a Hidden character. True Sight doesn't detect a Hidden character.
Yeah, I know, but that wasn't my point. While RAW explicitly states that, when you're invisible, your opponent loses his Dex bonus, it doesn't say the same for when you're simply hidden. Hence, the question. :smallsmile: (It still sounds perfectly reasonable to me, just asking.)

Also:

Gloom Razor (feat, ToB). This is a tactical feat which allows you to gain the benefits of an Invisibility spell (triggers with a successful Hide as a swift action, but only after your opponent misses you due to concealment, so you'll want Child of Shadows or something) for one round. It also allows you to treat an enemy as flat-footed for your first attack, if on the previous round you hit and moved. It's complicated, but still a solid choice if you go Rogue/Swordsage.
Cloak of Deception maneuver (SH2). Boost, gives Greater Invisibility for your turn. Full sneak attack, then.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-27, 11:53 PM
Yeah, I know, but that wasn't my point. While RAW explicitly states that, when you're invisible, your opponent loses his Dex bonus, it doesn't say the same for when you're simply hidden. Hence, the question. :smallsmile: (It still sounds perfectly reasonable to me, just asking.)

Also:

Gloom Razor (feat, ToB). This is a tactical feat which allows you to gain the benefits of an Invisibility spell (triggers with a successful Hide as a swift action, but only after your opponent misses you due to concealment, so you'll want Child of Shadows or something) for one round. It also allows you to treat an enemy as flat-footed for your first attack, if on the previous round you hit and moved. It's complicated, but still a solid choice if you go Rogue/Swordsage.
Cloak of Deception maneuver (SH2). Boost, gives Greater Invisibility for your turn. Full sneak attack, then.

Gloom's Razor isn't really all that good, since you have to be missed for it to trigger. Ideally, you are wanting to keep them from swinging at you in the first place. You should also have far more than one attack, so the use is... exceedingly limited.

I should probably list it in the Feats section, if only to color it red to warn people off.

Cloak of Deception is good, for one round, once per combat. Not bad for a single 2nd level maneuver. Beats Sapphire Nightmare Blade unless opponents can see invis.

PId6
2010-06-27, 11:59 PM
What I really like about Gloom Razor is that it consistently makes enemies flat-footed each round. This is mostly awesome for Iaijutsu Master builds, since a single attack there is all you need for massive damage, and your biggest obstacle is getting enemies flat-footed. For rogues, it's a lot less awesome, since you really want to Sneak Attack multiple times per round.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-28, 12:06 AM
What I really like about Gloom Razor is that it consistently makes enemies flat-footed each round. This is mostly awesome for Iaijutsu Master builds, since a single attack there is all you need for massive damage, and your biggest obstacle is getting enemies flat-footed. For rogues, it's a lot less awesome, since you really want to Sneak Attack multiple times per round.

This is true, however this is a guide about applying precision-based damage output, not Iajitsu Focus.

PId6
2010-06-28, 12:17 AM
This is true, however this is a guide about applying precision-based damage output, not Iajitsu Focus.
Oh I know. It's just something interesting I felt like pointing out.

nefele
2010-06-28, 12:35 AM
I should probably list it in the Feats section, if only to color it red to warn people off.
*shrugs*
Hey, it's your guide.

However, it works great with hit and run tactics. Of course, optimizers frown upon hit and run tactics when Sneak Attack is involved, because you want lots of attacks per round, right? Well, it may be a suboptimal choice - BUT it's also a valid style of play, a concept if you like. "Yes, I know that my Rogue would deal a crapload of damage if he did 3 attacks per round, but I like the idea of a guy who dashes, skewers your spleen and is out of the way one second later." For such a concept, Gloom Razor is simply awesome.

In any case, we are talking about glass cannons here, and standing right next to the guy you full-attack may not always be a bright idea. I think it's a good backup plan even for TWFers.

But as I said, it's your guide.

PId6
2010-06-28, 12:51 AM
However, it works great with hit and run tactics. Of course, optimizers frown upon hit and run tactics when Sneak Attack is involved, because you want lots of attacks per round, right? Well, it may be a suboptimal choice - BUT it's also a valid style of play, a concept if you like. "Yes, I know that my Rogue would deal a crapload of damage if he did 3 attacks per round, but I like the idea of a guy who dashes, skewers your spleen and is out of the way one second later." For such a concept, Gloom Razor is simply awesome.

In any case, we are talking about glass cannons here, and standing right next to the guy you full-attack may not always be a bright idea. I think it's a good backup plan even for TWFers.
Hit and run is a viable option, but it's best done at range rather than melee. With either Greater Manyshot or Travel Devotion, you can run away while still unloading a lot of Sneak Attacks into the enemy. It's even safer than making melee attacks with Gloom Razor.

Yes, someone might want to play an unoptimized concept. That doesn't make it any less unoptimized. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize the fact that it's an unoptimized concept, and they're okay with it.

Hague
2010-06-28, 12:58 AM
You're forgetting another source of precision damage. The Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior has a precision-based attack aptly named "Ranged Precision" that adds d8 dice to standard action-only ranged attacks. Not the greatest, but it is another source of precision damage.

PId6
2010-06-28, 01:02 AM
You're forgetting another source of precision damage. The Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior has a precision-based attack aptly named "Ranged Precision" that adds d8 dice to standard action-only ranged attacks. Not the greatest, but it is another source of precision damage.
Order of the Bow Initiate is terrible. Only allowing a single attack each round leads to horrible damage output, and its minor class features don't compensate at all. Definitely a huge trap.

Hague
2010-06-28, 01:07 AM
I never said it was good. I merely stated that it's a source of precision damage :P

It would definitely be better if you could apply it to crossbows. That way, you pick up crossbow sniper and can deal sneak attacks and ranged precision attacks at 120ft away.

Edit: Ack. Nevermind, it wouldn't stack with crossbow sniper for lots of reasons :P

ProfMoriarty
2010-06-28, 10:03 AM
Bypassing Concealment etc:
Rapier of Unerring Direction (equipment, relic, MIC). The good: it ignores ALL miss chances. Just like that. The bad: you need the True Believer feat, and relics aren't (or shouldn't be) readily available in every game. But at least it's Fharlanghn's relic, whom all Scouts and many sneaky types would plausibly worship.

While this weapon does ignore the miss chance granted by concealment, it does not ignore the concealment status of an opponent. Rogue's sneak attack description says you can't sneak attack a creature with concealment, it doesn't mention miss chance.

At least that's how it seems by RAW.

Hague
2010-06-28, 05:06 PM
Yeah, looks that way to me. The rapier will hit the target, but you still can't see the target well enough to stab them in their aorta.

Optimator
2010-07-22, 05:38 AM
Handy Guide.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-22, 07:28 AM
Wandstrike(CArc) You hit them with the wand, which deals 1d6 damage, and hits them with the spell. You made an attack roll, and did damage, therefore you may sneak attack with it.
You've got another error.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee touch attack with a wand, expending one charge to deal 1d6 points of damage to the creature struck. You apply no extra damage to this attack regardless of its source (including sneak attack, favored enemy, and smite bonuses), but you can activate the wand as part of the attack. Better change this one to the red color.

true_shinken
2010-07-22, 09:10 AM
You really think Gloom Razor is worse than Improved Feint?

Ruinix
2010-07-22, 09:50 AM
weapon property Ghost Strike is a +1 enhance and have to have Ghost touch so for a +3 weapon can hit and add precision damage to any ghost AND undeads.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-22, 12:04 PM
weapon property Ghost Strike is a +1 enhance and have to have Ghost touch so for a +3 weapon can hit and add precision damage to any ghost AND undeads.
That's a +3 cost weapon, which is only +1 to hit and damage. On the other hand a +3 regular (simple numerical enhancement) weapon can be enhanced by a Greater Truedeath or Greater Demolition weapon augment crystal, and allow full sneak attack against undead or constructs as your needs dictate.

Math_Mage
2010-07-22, 02:08 PM
You really think Gloom Razor is worse than Improved Feint?

Well, for one thing, Improved Feint comes online much, much earlier than Gloom Razor, and is actually quite useful for those early levels--say, levels 3-8 or so. Gloom Razor gets into play around level 8, and with Blurring/Greater armor, it's useful until you get to the point where a Ring of Blinking becomes affordable, at which point Pierce Magical Concealment becomes much better--and that's level 11 at the latest. So it's useful in a very narrow set of levels.

true_shinken
2010-07-22, 02:28 PM
Well, for one thing, Improved Feint comes online much, much earlier than Gloom Razor, and is actually quite useful for those early levels--say, levels 3-8 or so. Gloom Razor gets into play around level 8, and with Blurring/Greater armor, it's useful until you get to the point where a Ring of Blinking becomes affordable, at which point Pierce Magical Concealment becomes much better--and that's level 11 at the latest. So it's useful in a very narrow set of levels.

Hm, you do have a point. Conceded.

Jornophelanthas
2010-07-22, 07:52 PM
I believe there should be a third category in your "things that provide concealment" category (apart from magic/illusion and terrain).

The tower shield provides total cover under some circumstances. (They need to give up on attacking for that round, and it doesn't work on targeted spells.)

And neither True Seeing nor tactical movement will overcome this, although the use of certain feats, spells or (if I'm interpreting it correctly) the Warlock's Eldritch Blast will.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-24, 02:49 AM
I hold the brute-force max precision damage build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3084.0) and the precision damage immunity guide before Gleemax's purges.

You actually forget a couple ways extremely thorough can use to foil the iconic rogue. I'm not sure "you know the list" cuts it, but perhaps this isn't the thread. Many aberrations and all swarms are also immune (as would 100% armor fortification). You are right that swift hunter should take care of them.

The problem is that the swarm subtype was forgotten in the favored enemy list. The only fair thing a DM is to do is add it for the swift hunter who wants to bend over backwards just to apply that precision damage.