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View Full Version : Which is your favorite ToB class?



gallagher
2010-06-25, 08:05 PM
so which of the classes is your favorite ToB class? my favorite has to be the swordsage for a multitude of reasons. 6+INT skillpoints, and the fact that it can be every single non-spellcasting class you want it to be with a little forethought and investment in your maneuvers.

Barbarian? mix desert wind with stone dragon (more SD than DW, but i happen to like DW alot)

Fighter? well, fighters suck and have no actual distinguishable class features, so pick your favorite school available and stick with that. claim you spent the fighter feats on those schools.

Monk? setting sun mixed with some stone dragon for when others try and grapple/trip/disarm you. seriously, everyone wants to throw the guy they are grappling. now you can, and seriously hurt them instead of just taking falling damage.

Rogue? shadow hand does a good job of doing sneak attack (assassins stance ftw) and you can do ability damage to people (like bloodletting strike for 4 CON damage!)

Ranger? Tiger claw makes you a better TWFer than a ranger. sure, you have to meet the dex requirements now, and it will take a little longer for the extra attacks, but what light armored character DOESNT max out their dex?

Paladin? ok, you dont get devoted spirit or white raven, which is why if you want to be a paladin it is probably more useful to be a crusader, but swordsage still isnt a bad option. you get diamond mind, which is better than adding CHA to your saves. stone dragon is better than smite ability (since you can recharge your maneuvers between combat stages) and you still have room for some other very powerful stances and maneuvers from other classes.

i guess it comes down to options. i may not have full BAB, but that isnt as necessary to me if i have the right strategy. for instance, i like to have a healthy mix of Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and sprinkle in a little Tiger Claw for flavor. after that mixture, with the right stances, i am one potent enemy

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-25, 08:17 PM
I've got to go with the Crusader. Not needing an action to refresh maneuvers is handy if you're in the habit of using your swift action to either switch stances, activate items, or do just about anything else.

Sploosh
2010-06-25, 08:19 PM
Warblade if only because Ironheart surge is my favorite ability in all of 3.5

Grumman
2010-06-25, 08:20 PM
For general use I like the Warblade best, because of their recovery mechanism and generally good base (d12 HD, good B.A.B, okay skills).

I use Crusaders for two character types: Immune-to-Sleep-Hunger-and-Thirst Uber-tanks, and Ruby Knight Vindicators.

I'd only use Swordsage for the Arcane Swordsage variant or to play a Desert Wind specialist. If I want Shadow Hand specialisation, I'll use a Warblade or feat-only base.

Starscream
2010-06-25, 08:23 PM
Swordsage. As much as my brain accepts that monks stink, my heart just won't accept it. I want so much to play Bruce Lee in a fantasy setting.

But monks suck, so my dreams of being able to punch dragons in the face go unfulfilled.

Until...Unarmed Swordsage! Finally! All the cool flavor of a monk, but actually viable in combat! Those dragons won't know what hit them! Except, they will, because I'll be the one hitting them, and I'll be sure to let them know! No dragonface shall go un-punched!

PId6
2010-06-25, 08:27 PM
Swordsage, mostly because it's the most mechanically interesting. With its large number of schools, high number of maneuvers known, high amount of skill points and class skills, and distinctive features (AC Bonus being the best of them).

Problems of the Swordsage include medium BAB, terrible refresh mechanic, and MAD, all of which unfortunately places it as the weakest of the three martial adepts. Still, that's not really saying much, and they're still very versatile and quite strong, with plenty of ways to mitigate their weaknesses (Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style, etc).

Private-Prinny
2010-06-25, 08:29 PM
Swordsage is my personal favorite, Unarmed in particular. Warblade is a close second.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-25, 08:32 PM
Warblade.

Just for Iron Heart (all of it), though Diamond Mind is a close second...

Escheton
2010-06-25, 08:36 PM
Warblade. I like it when I get my maneuvers back when I flourish my weapon and then proceed to trip someone.

gallagher
2010-06-25, 08:38 PM
Swordsage, mostly because it's the most mechanically interesting. With its large number of schools, high number of maneuvers known, high amount of skill points and class skills, and distinctive features (AC Bonus being the best of them).

Problems of the Swordsage include medium BAB, terrible refresh mechanic, and MAD, all of which unfortunately places it as the weakest of the three martial adepts. Still, that's not really saying much, and they're still very versatile and quite strong, with plenty of ways to mitigate their weaknesses (Weapon Finesse, Adaptive Style, etc).

put a 14 in CON, 10 in Int, 12 in Str, get weapon finesse and MAX IT OUT, and maybe a 14 in Wis? no need for Cha.

heck, 12 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha is good for 32 PB at early levels

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-25, 08:41 PM
All three of them are great, but I'd have to say Crusader is my favorite. Just love the Devoted Spirit path.

Eldariel
2010-06-25, 08:45 PM
Eternal Blade. Great school access, incredible capstone, great class features throughout and just so happens to be for my favorite race. Though Master of the Nine is not far behind, but medium BAB with all those prerequisites is kinda meh.

Of course, you probably meant "base class", in which case I'll say...no idea! I love playing a wide variety of characters and they all have so many uses I can't really name one.

Though if I was forced to name one, it'd be Swordsage for the large variety of maneuvers he can know to make the kind of Adaptive Style "Oh, so this is what we're up against; switching to appropriate move set!"-style viable. That and I love skill points. Though I have little love for the magical abilities; luckily there's enough good mundane ones to get you by and no absolutely necessary magical ones.

PId6
2010-06-25, 08:45 PM
put a 14 in CON, 10 in Int, 12 in Str, get weapon finesse and MAX IT OUT, and maybe a 14 in Wis? no need for Cha.

heck, 12 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha is good for 32 PB at early levels
It's more painful under lower PBs like 28 or 25, and when rolling.

But yes, Swordsage MAD is quite different from Monk MAD. Whereas Monks need several attributes to function, Swordsages benefit from several attributes. They can function decently even when their ability scores are low, so MAD for them is nowhere near as bad as MAD for Monk.

Knaight
2010-06-25, 08:46 PM
Its a tie between Crusader and Warblade, Devoted Spirit is amazing and gets the holy warrior down smack, but I like the concept of the very talented, not as heavily armored warrior better.

Eldariel
2010-06-25, 08:46 PM
It's more painful under lower PBs like 28 or 25, and when rolling.

But yes, Swordsage MAD is quite different from Monk MAD. Whereas Monks need several attributes to function, Swordsages benefit from several attributes. They can function decently even when their ability scores are low, so MAD for them is nowhere near as bad as MAD for Monk.

And Swordsages come with built-in tools to be Wis- or Dex-SAD allowing them to synergize their level-ups to boost everything while Monks need a lot of help to get there. Also, in a skill-based chassis, +2 skillpoints counts for a lot. As does having a variety of attacks, of course.

Critical
2010-06-25, 08:49 PM
Warblade, because you can Iron Heart Surge away the DM. :smalltongue:

Private-Prinny
2010-06-25, 08:49 PM
It's more painful under lower PBs like 28 or 25, and when rolling.

But yes, Swordsage MAD is quite different from Monk MAD. Whereas Monks need several attributes to function, Swordsages benefit from several attributes. They can function decently even when their ability scores are low, so MAD for them is nowhere near as bad as MAD for Monk.

Wait, are you saying that there are classes that don't benefit from more high stats? :smallconfused:

PId6
2010-06-25, 08:54 PM
Wait, are you saying that there are classes that don't benefit from more high stats? :smallconfused:
Not to the extent that Swordsages and Monks do.

Wizard, for example, benefit minimally from half of its stats. Int/Con/Dex are good, the rest are just meh. More Str means more carrying capacity and maybe better melee touch rolls. More Wis means marginally better Will saves (which are already sky high anyways). More Cha means... nothing.

Druids are an even more extreme example. Str and Dex are meaningless past level 5 since they're going around in Wildshape anyway. Int is decent for skill points, but Cha really doesn't do anything at all. Only Con and Wis actually benefit them that much.

AslanCross
2010-06-25, 09:08 PM
Warblade, hands down. It's straightforward melee goodness without any frills.

Kylarra
2010-06-25, 09:20 PM
I like JPM:smallamused:

Eldariel
2010-06-25, 09:26 PM
Not to the extent that Swordsages and Monks do.

Wizard, for example, benefit minimally from half of its stats. Int/Con/Dex are good, the rest are just meh. More Str means more carrying capacity and maybe better melee touch rolls. More Wis means marginally better Will saves (which are already sky high anyways). More Cha means... nothing.

Well, Charisma actually has some uses; Charm Person, Charm Monster and Planar Binding-line call for Charisma-checks. Also, opposed control checks on creatures are decided by Charisma-checks.

And of course, some PrCs grant access to Use Magic Device, which has obvious uses and benefits of Charisma. So yeah, you don't need Charisma as a Wizard but it's not completely useless; much of it comes down to how much use you make of it.

SurlySeraph
2010-06-25, 09:31 PM
Warblade. I like its recovery mechanism best, the BAB and d12 HD make it hard to be useless in melee no matter what maneuvers you select, and the Int synergy goes well with so many other things.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-25, 09:38 PM
Swordsage. It may not be the strongest of the classes, but it has the widest range of abilities. I also just like the a lot of the Desert Wind school conceptually.

CubeB
2010-06-25, 09:42 PM
Warblade. Good Recovery, Good HP, Iron Heart... Plus I prefer tougher characters over sneaky ones.

balistafreak
2010-06-25, 09:44 PM
I also just like the a lot of the Desert Wind school conceptually.

Ironically, it seems to be the biggest "flaw" that anime-haters point out in it. :smalltongue:

As for myself... Warblade all the way. When I build a melee-fighter, I don't want any of this supernatural crap, I want to hit you in such a way that is made of 0% magic, 100% awesome.

And why yes, I reflavor everything mechanically possible. Why do you ask?

Draz74
2010-06-25, 09:52 PM
Warblade. I love how nonmagical it is, the way it (like Swordsage) has good ways to benefit from every single ability score, and the fact that it was freely available online before I got to read the rest of Tome of Battle. I actually like that it has a smaller number of maneuvers than the other two (but still manages to be powerful enough), because that makes it more customizable. I like the suite of Disciplines it has access to, too, although I do wish it had Setting Sun sometimes.

lsfreak
2010-06-25, 09:56 PM
Warblade, with SS a close second. I like crusaders, they just tend to be a bit more limited in scope as to what you can pull off fluff-wise with them.

Really what I like out ToB, though, is the huge variety of homebrewed classes and disciplines that have come up with its release. It gives a solid base for homebrewing, with clear and distinct examples for the power of individual maneuvers (compare that the homebrewed spells, which are much harder to assign 'fair and balanced' levels to), as well as a limited enough core mechanic that it's not as overwhelming to try and make things work. You already know where half the class is coming from before you even start, so you just have to fill in the other half with good stuff.

Dacia Brabant
2010-06-25, 10:36 PM
Really what I like out ToB, though, is the huge variety of homebrewed classes and disciplines that have come up with its release.

This. The "Age of Warriors" thread in the Homebrew section has so many excellent examples, I just hope to get an opportunity to play one eventually.

As for the book itself, apart from Eternal Blade and the Windicator, I'd probably have to say Warblade. It seems to be the top-of-the-line melee fighter, even though Crusader is a bit stronger due to Devoted Spirit and the actionless recovery, but I'd say top-of-the-line because of how versatile it is in melee combat. Swordsage is even more versatile, but its versatility is more of the out-of-combat variety, and it has that annoying Adaptive Style feat tax.

Marriclay
2010-06-25, 11:25 PM
Warblade, Definately. Hell, take a look at my Avi! It's my latest character, a Half-Ogre Warblade.

I agree with the fact that they're nonmagical and can still smash in the giant's face, chop the dragon's head off, and then go on a merry slaughtering rampage through the Orc/Troll/Mindflayer/whatever infested mines. And with Iron Heart Surge and Iron Heart Endurance, you can essentially be completely healed and free of status effects for your next battle, all for a standard action to recover your maneuvers!

On top of that, all they really require is a good strength. Intelligence is nice, opens up roleplay opportunities (Who wants to be a warlord?), more skills, and amps some abilities, and constitution is nice for every character, but everything else? Secondary. I love it.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-06-25, 11:35 PM
Warblade by far.

Primarily for the adaptability of being able to change weapon feats at will every day.

While the wizard prepares spells, I'll be over here, brushing up on whatever weapon I feel like using today.

Take an EWP at first level for extra fun.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-25, 11:54 PM
Depends. Are we talking dips? In that case, I use Crusader 1 and 3 x Martial Study for auto-refreshing DM save-replacement maneuvers to cover the weak points on a caster type and not have to spend as many resources buffing saves, Swordsage 1 to pick up lots of higher level maneuvers or bootstrap prerequisite maneuvers for a higher-level maneuver to give a sneaky type more punch and round things out with Shadow Hand, and Warblade 1 for Iron Heart Surge + White Raven Tactics to give a fighter type the two best maneuvers in the book.

If we're talking long-term investments, I'm a Warblade guy, because (A) I much prefer higher-Int types with good Knowledge skills so I can be crazy prepared for things and (B) I have an irrational love for Diamond Mind.

Draz74
2010-06-26, 12:11 AM
I use Crusader 1 and 3 x Martial Study for auto-refreshing DM save-replacement maneuvers to cover the weak points on a caster type

Hmmm, 9000 gp can save you two feats ... :smallwink:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-26, 12:23 AM
Hmmm, 9000 gp can save you two feats ... :smallwink:

Oh, I know; I put the crown of white ravens to good use for getting WRT on a buffer and the Iron Heart version for gettting IHS on a mage slayer. Generally, though, I go crusader+MS when the character doesn't need feats as much but is cash-strapped and can't afford cloaks of resistance and such (a bottomless-spellbook wizard or archivist with plenty of wands and utility items, for instance)--otherwise, why not buff saves through the stratosphere instead and dip a Luck/Pride cleric to cover nat 1s?

Kylarra
2010-06-26, 12:31 AM
Ironically, it seems to be the biggest "flaw" that anime-haters point out in it. :smalltongue:That's not a phenomena that's unique to ToB, the thing that attracts one person may well be the same thing that repulses others.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-26, 01:02 AM
Ironically, it seems to be the biggest "flaw" that anime-haters point out in it. :smalltongue:


I'm not an anime-hater, I think they're silly. Honestly, even some of the more Over-the-Top anime characters can't come close to what a D&D wizard can do.

Akal Saris
2010-06-26, 02:43 AM
Skipping the content of the thread and saying swordsage. It's the only class that completely captured the "feel" of a ninja for me right out of the box: a mobile damage-dealer with excellent mobility, stealth, and lots of skill points.

It's not really as strong in a fight as the other 2 classes, but I think it makes up for it in utility and sheer fun.

Dhavaer
2010-06-26, 04:25 AM
Warblade. Not keen on heavy armour or divine fluff, and if I'm hitting things with other things I want full BAB and scads of hit points.

sonofzeal
2010-06-26, 04:38 AM
Crusader. I've played all three, and found the others to be quite powerful, but I think I had most fun with Crusader. Swordsage was a strong second though.

Amphetryon
2010-06-26, 04:51 AM
I really like Crusader, for making a Paladin-type that's fun and highly playable.

Swordsage comes in second for easy access to what I find the most interesting Maneuvers and Prestige Classes.

Fortuna
2010-06-26, 05:27 AM
Crusader, simply because I love the fact that a Crusader is one of the only classes in the game who can, out of the box, go on all day, every day, as long as events require until the dice fall too far against them.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-06-26, 07:15 AM
Crusader, for making the meatshield a viable option. Mmmmm, meatshield...

Galileo
2010-06-26, 08:21 AM
I've gotta say Warblade. Gotta love the ability to play a warrior-type who actually can live by the motto "If I can reach it, I can kill it."

Combined with Eternal Blade, it's perfect for playing Link. Iron Heart provides the Spin Attack and jump slash, Eternal Blade provides the fairy. Devoted Spirit's hit-and-heal maneuvers can be the hearts that appear when enemies die!

Optimator
2010-06-26, 06:57 PM
Warblade. Access to outstanding schools plus Int synergy.

Da Beast
2010-06-26, 08:37 PM
Probably Warblade for the BAB, d12 HD, and intelligence synergy. I can't stand playing low INT characters. Swordsage is a very close second for the lightly armored flavor. If only I could find a DM who'd let me use kung fu genius for swordsage abilities and maneuver DCs.

Diamondeye
2010-06-26, 08:58 PM
Swordsage, on it's own merits. Warblade is a VERY close second.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-27, 12:59 AM
Warblade for me. Though I love many class features and manuvers of the Crusader, I don't like the randomness.

AdamSmasher
2010-06-27, 01:36 AM
I tend to use them all as dips to help me flesh out other concepts. I mostly use Warblade and Swordsage for this, but I'm quickly learning to love the Crusader. Revitalizing Strike is a fantastically cool attack when you refluff it as your vampire character leaching health out of your opponent for the group.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-27, 04:44 AM
Warblade...

Diamond Mind + White Raven.

I like playing leaders.