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View Full Version : [3.5]Alternative Energy Sources aka Never Ending Rage



PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 03:14 AM
For my own amusement (and possible use in some ancient ruins) I'm trying to develop a never ending energy source based off of the Goliath Rage Ring from Races of Stone.

Currently I'm working with the idea of a giant hamster wheel made of aurorum (BoED) hooked up to a generator. I figure the aurorum will keep it from being worn out over time.

Throw a Barbarian 6/Frenzier Berserker 4 Killoren (Races of the Wild) in the wheel. Create a permanent illusion of a monster or something they can rage at. Make the illusion appear to run from them. Hook a crossbow that creates its own ammo (similar to the armbow in the Eberron Campaign Setting) and trigger it to fire at set intervals, just to insure the subject stays angry.

Equip a ring of sustenance and boots of the unending journey and it should be able to frenzy forever.

Can anyone spot any glaring flaws in this plan? Other than the obvious impracticality of it, of course. Any suggestion or ways to improve or streamline it would be appreciated as well.

Coidzor
2010-06-26, 03:20 AM
Hmm, the principle problem is probably that is needs a level 10 character to use as the fuel source...

Can we cheese the level lower?

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 03:26 AM
I figured that only a frenzier berserker would be stupid enough to actually chase an illusion forever. It would probably work at level 7, since thats the minimum level for frenzied berserker. Also the boots require that you have at least 7 HD or a 4th level divine slot. I -could- use a warforged or something similar, but that feels like cheating to me.

I went ahead and gave him frenzied berserker 4, so that I don't have to worry about damaging him too much, since he can't actually die. If I had some way to mitigate the damage being dealt to him his level could be lowered to 7.

Coidzor
2010-06-26, 03:50 AM
Hmm. A source of DR and a crossbow sized for something small enough that it'll do minimum damage for the infinite trap?

Counts as an attack, but doesn't actually do damage, still annoying enough to sustain a rage, especially if there were multiple bolts, like a hail of mosquitoes or sommat.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 03:56 AM
Unfortunately barbarians don't get DR until level 7, so that means either another HD, DR from another source, or no frenzied berserker.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 04:05 AM
Wasn't there a feat to give DR?

Also why the crossbow? Isn't once damaging enough to trigger and after the "enemy/illusion" needs to stay within 40 ft.

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-26, 04:07 AM
I went ahead and gave him frenzied berserker 4, so that I don't have to worry about damaging him too much, since he can't actually die. If I had some way to mitigate the damage being dealt to him his level could be lowered to 7.

He can, however, fall unconscious, due to that class ability not making an exception for non-lethal damage being higher than your hit points. 0 is always greater than a negative number, and 0 is the minimum amount of non-lethal damage you can have suffered.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 04:07 AM
I figure its better to keep pelting him, just to make sure he stays angry.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 04:09 AM
He can, however, fall unconscious, due to that class ability not making an exception for non-lethal damage being higher than your hit points. 0 is always greater than a negative number, and 0 is the minimum amount of non-lethal damage you can have suffered.

He's not taking any nonlethal damage though, the boots make sure he's never fatigued or exhausted, so unless he takes it from another source he's fine.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 04:11 AM
He's not taking any nonlethal damage though, the boots make sure he's never fatigued or exhausted, so unless he takes it from another source he's fine.

You take 2 points of non lethal damage per round in frenzy.
Also hunger and thirst deal non lethal damage.

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-26, 04:12 AM
He's not taking any nonlethal damage though, the boots make sure he's never fatigued or exhausted, so unless he takes it from another source he's fine.

He doesn't have to. The moment you fall into the negative hit points, your non-lethal damage exceeds your hit points, due to 0 being higher than any negative number. Even if you are somehow immune to lethal damage, nothing makes an exception for that rule (mostly because no one really remembers the non-lethal damage rules).

Rannil
2010-06-26, 04:15 AM
He doesn't have to. The moment you fall into the negative hit points, your non-lethal damage exceeds your hit points, due to 0 being higher than any negative number. Even if you are somehow immune to lethal damage, nothing makes an exception for that rule (mostly because no one really remembers the non-lethal damage rules).

Anyways, the frenzied berserker is immune to unconscious.


At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy.

Al though that part isn't elaborated on.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 04:16 AM
Okay, so it looks like he either needs to be immune to nonlethal damage or he needs to be able to heal. Ring of regeneration and eternal wands of cure [whatever] wounds hooked up to a setup similar to the crossbow come to mind.

The ring of sustenance takes care of the need for food and water.

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-26, 04:17 AM
At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy.

Al though that part isn't elaborated on.

That's entirely fluff. It has no bearing on the game rules. The mechanics of the ability starts in the sentence immediately after that one.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 04:26 AM
That's entirely fluff. It has no bearing on the game rules. The mechanics of the ability starts in the sentence immediately after that one.

Either way, damage reduction should prevent negative hit points, thus the whole non lethal damage issue. Other things are covered as well, missed the ring.

I found the (non epic) DR-feat.
Roll With It, from Savage Spieces (p 39)
DR 2/-, stacks with itself. You do need 20 con and the toughness feat.

Coidzor
2010-06-26, 04:37 AM
Well, a light adamantine chain shirt would give DR 1/- and thus negate fine or possibly diminuitive crossbowbolts.

Oh. Wait.

What about Trollblooded? That's just a feat and human in exchange for Regeneration 1, right?

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 04:41 AM
It looks like the 2 nonlethal damage/round from frenzying is more of a problem. If we ditch frenzied berserker for barbarian we just get DR 1/-

Edit: Humans also die of old age, so unless we can find a way around that I don't want to go with them.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 04:49 AM
It looks like the 2 nonlethal damage/round from frenzying is more of a problem. If we ditch frenzied berserker for barbarian we just get DR 1/-

Edit: Humans also die of old age, so unless we can find a way around that I don't want to go with them.

Non lethal damage can be healed with normal healing, right.

Also there is a Dragon Magazine way of becoming an immortal human. Other options are undead humans, but I guess that's A) cheating and B) trollblood wouldn't work.

Edit: If you ditch frenzied berserker, doesn't that mean the barbarian can quit rage and go on a strike?

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 05:02 AM
A frenzied berserker could end their frenzy as well, if they make a will save. I figured I would come up with some way to make them never want to, or be to stupid to.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 05:10 AM
But a DC20 Will save is quite hard for a barbarian, With a poor save he needs like 15+ on a D20, 25% chance. Owh well, getting annoyed by arrows and seeing a guy would work I guess, especially if wisdom and int are low.

I was also thinking, if you could get a eternal wand of heal, with 3 charges. You could heal him each time he gets fatigued, not needing the shoes and possibly making the minimum level 1. Not sure if that would work.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 05:14 AM
Well, I figured that whoever builds this has a lot more money than a standard 7th level character and they're just funding it. As such, WBL isn't terribly important.

Like I said, I want this thing to run forever once its hooked up, so if they even have a chance to roll to escape its unacceptable. I was considering having a triggered geas be cast on them or something similar.

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 05:29 AM
Anyways, if you afraid for escaping, why don't seal the exits. Or make a closed hamster wheel. If he doesn't die, there is no point of giving a option of him leaving.

Anyways:
A eternal wand of healing that triggers every 8 hours to cure fatigue.
A ring of sustenance.
A Goliath Rage Ring.
A permanent illusion (possible with the ability to taunt)
A crossbow shooting fine or possibly diminutive crossbowbolts (to make the threat "real")
A light adamantine chain shirt.
A Killoren, level 1 barbarian, with a int and wis of 3.

No damage, no hunger, no thirst, a low will save vs illusions, a low int and the feeling the threat is real, endless rage, immortal, immoral and a way to cure fatigue. I think that's all, I still prefer zombie hamsters, less work, but this is more delicious evil.

molten_dragon
2010-06-26, 05:35 AM
The biggest flaw in your plan is that the Goliath Rage Ring only works for Rage, not Frenzy, so whatever poor critter you have strapped to your wheel will run out of frenzies after just a minute or two, and then they can stop raging and leave whenever they want. There are some other problems, but that's the biggest one.

Edit: Rannil has the right idea with the undead. Just create some skeletons to run on your wheel. They are undead, so they're immune to aging and fatigue, and they're mindless, so they'll literally do whatever you tell them to do forever (assuming someone else doesn't break your control and tell them to do something else).

Coidzor
2010-06-26, 05:40 AM
There some kind of way to prevent an auto-success on a natural 20?

Some kind of resetting spell turret trap could spam him with a will save debuff. And/Or Allip him down to a low wisdom.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 05:44 AM
The biggest flaw in your plan is that the Goliath Rage Ring only works for Rage, not Frenzy, so whatever poor critter you have strapped to your wheel will run out of frenzies after just a minute or two, and then they can stop raging and leave whenever they want. There are some other problems, but that's the biggest one.

Edit: Rannil has the right idea with the undead. Just create some skeletons to run on your wheel. They are undead, so they're immune to aging and fatigue, and they're mindless, so they'll literally do whatever you tell them to do forever (assuming someone else doesn't break your control and tell them to do something else).

Next, you'd be using Permanent Wall of Fire... No work needed.

Reluctance
2010-06-26, 05:47 AM
Your plan involves a ring of regeneration, and either an infinitely-resetting crossbow with infinite bolts, or else an infinitely-resetting trap to do energy damage. And you're trying to make a rube-goldberg-esque perpetual motion machine.

Wouldn't it be easier to take the infinitely-resetting energy trap, have it use lightning, and fire into a capacitor repeatedly? Magic already gives you free infinite energy, why include the character and the hamster wheel into the mix?

Edit: Nijna'd

Bayar
2010-06-26, 06:42 AM
1. Swap the guy in the wheel with a level 1 warforged commoner
2. Tell him to run until he drops from fatigue.
3. ???
4. PROFIT !

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 10:39 AM
I'm fully aware I could use undead or a construct to make this work more easily. Thats not the goal here.

Edit: I didn't really want him to actually be trapped in there. Ideally it will use someone too stupid to contemplate escape.

Rannil
2010-06-26, 11:34 AM
I'm fully aware I could use undead or a construct to make this work more easily. Thats not the goal here.

Edit: I didn't really want him to actually be trapped in there. Ideally it will use someone too stupid to contemplate escape.

Like I said before, 3 int and 3 wis keeps the bugger stupid enough to prevent escaping. Would even work for a level ten char.

sofawall
2010-06-26, 11:41 AM
He doesn't have to. The moment you fall into the negative hit points, your non-lethal damage exceeds your hit points, due to 0 being higher than any negative number. Even if you are somehow immune to lethal damage, nothing makes an exception for that rule (mostly because no one really remembers the non-lethal damage rules).

So what you are saying is any ability that allows you to remain conscious at less than 0 HP is totally useless? Or perhaps what you are saying is if you deal non-lethal to them, they fall unconscious, then they proceed to wake up again when you smash their head in?

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 01:00 PM
Like I said before, 3 int and 3 wis keeps the bugger stupid enough to prevent escaping. Would even work for a level ten char.

Agreed, but finding someone that stupid will be difficult. Unless we actively drain it before.

Kaulesh
2010-06-26, 01:12 PM
Simple solution: Create an effigy (ToM?) creature. Put it in the wheel. Tell it to run.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 01:16 PM
I don't want to use an undead or a construct in the wheel.

Whats more amusing for a party to stumble upon:
1) A magic generator that makes energy
2) A construct inside a hamster wheel
3) One of the oldest beings on earth completely pissed off and chasing an illusion while being pelted with crossbow bolts.

Kaulesh
2010-06-26, 01:36 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm

Scroll down to Aging Effects. Elans have no maximum age. Now all you've got to worry about is nonlethal damage.

Beorn080
2010-06-26, 01:50 PM
Hmm, seems to me you need a self resetting Cure Light Wounds trap.

Hmm, this could be used to make a Matrix campaign.

"Welcome to the real world Neo. The Warforged have conquered the planet, and keep us in hamster wheels to power their machines. We, the citizens of Ebberon, fight back, hacking into their hamster wheels to free those in the machine."

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-26, 01:55 PM
So what you are saying is any ability that allows you to remain conscious at less than 0 HP is totally useless?

Pretty much.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 01:59 PM
I'd still go with RAI for that.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-26, 02:02 PM
Meh, just kill the barbarian and raise him into your service as a skeleton, which you put in the tread-wheel and order to tread.
A lot simpler, and less smelly, then the barbarian.

The Mentalist
2010-06-26, 02:07 PM
A ring of Favor of the Martyr? Immune to non lethal damage.

Edit: Is everyone missing the whole "Yes a skeleton would be simpler, we're doing this just to see if it can be done."

Bayar
2010-06-26, 02:26 PM
I don't want to use an undead or a construct in the wheel.

Whats more amusing for a party to stumble upon:
1) A magic generator that makes energy
2) A construct inside a hamster wheel
3) One of the oldest beings on earth completely pissed off and chasing an illusion while being pelted with crossbow bolts.

What's more amusing for the party to stumble upon ?
1) A magic generator that is used to power up a tower that shoots lightning ?
2) An animated wheel that spins itself to make energy ?
3) One of the oldest warforged on earth that spent his whole life weaving baskets and dualwielding them while weaving his enemies into a basket during a single round ?

to each his own I guess. Just remember, the point of optimizing is not to create a build that relies on a LOT of stuff when a LA 0 race does the same thing.

PapaNachos
2010-06-26, 02:35 PM
to each his own I guess. Just remember, the point of optimizing is not to create a build that relies on a LOT of stuff when a LA 0 race does the same thing.
What made you think I was trying to optimize?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-26, 02:55 PM
Technically, you're trying to optimize complexity. Just saying.

2xMachina
2010-06-26, 03:22 PM
Sometimes... you build something to see if it can be done with those limits.

Nero24200
2010-06-26, 04:01 PM
Pretty much.

Erm...Diehard? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard)

The entire basis of that core feat is that it is possible to remain concious and active at negative hit points.

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-27, 01:58 AM
Erm...Diehard? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard)

And it doesn't actually do that. It only prevents the unconsciousness from being dying, not the unconsciousness from having fewer hit points than non-lethal damage.

It's stupid, but it's RAW.

Rannil
2010-06-27, 02:05 AM
And it doesn't actually do that. It only prevents the unconsciousness from being dying, not the unconsciousness from having fewer hit points than non-lethal damage.

It's stupid, but it's RAW.

Nothing states you start with zero non lethal damage either. You only keep track of your non lethal damage, when you already have non lethal damage.


When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated

So by RAW, it is impossible to have 0 non lethal damage.


Am I doing it right?
Just trying to give a RAW solution here to make Die Hard and Frenzy work.

PapaNachos
2010-06-27, 03:23 AM
Nothing states you start with zero non lethal damage either. You only keep track of your non lethal damage, when you already have non lethal damage.



So by RAW, it is impossible to have 0 non lethal damage.


Am I doing it right?
Just trying to give a RAW solution here to make Die Hard and Frenzy work.

I would agree with this interpretation of how it works. When you don't have any nonlethal damage, it is effectively set to 'null' instead of '0'. However a single point of nonlethal damage would render you unconscious.

Swiftest
2010-06-27, 04:00 AM
Why not give your barbarian fast healing? The feral template would do that, or you could make him a changling and give him some warshaper levels (he could get into that starting at 5th level, with no feat costs). Once he has fast healing 2 while in an alternate form just have him take the form of another humanoid race and bam, constant fast healing 2. Then give him, say, adamantine full plate for DR 3 and he should go for a very long time while shooting him with diminutive crossbow bolts.

PapaNachos
2010-06-27, 01:07 PM
I like it, Barbarian 1 with fast healing 2 would work well. If we go with frenzied berserker this also solves that problem as well.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-27, 01:14 PM
Well, a light adamantine chain shirt would give DR 1/- and thus negate fine or possibly diminuitive crossbowbolts.

Oh. Wait.

What about Trollblooded? That's just a feat and human in exchange for Regeneration 1, right?

Regeneration/fast healing of some sort will remove your nonlethal damage problem. Warforged, even though you call it cheating, actually works best for the rest.

In fact, just Warforged. It makes sense. This is exactly what they were originally built for, and one might keep running at it even after the building around it collapsed.

^ - Or golems.

dgnslyr
2010-06-27, 02:19 PM
In fact, just Warforged. It makes sense. This is exactly what they were originally built for, and one might keep running at it even after the building around it collapsed.

^ - Or golems.

But the idea of an angry man thousands of years old running on a treadmill is just too funny. I can only wonder what would go through such a man's head.

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-27, 03:03 PM
But the idea of an angry man thousands of years old running on a treadmill is just too funny. I can only wonder what would go through such a man's head.

"Sheesh, I'm bored. And boredom makes me AAAANNNNGGGRRRRYYYY!"

PapaNachos
2010-06-27, 04:01 PM
"When I finally catch him he's going to pay... He's going to get tired eventually, I just have to outlast him"

Ravens_cry
2010-06-27, 04:16 PM
I don't own Races of the Wild.
Don't you have to worry about things like the Barbarian dying of old age?

PapaNachos
2010-06-27, 04:20 PM
I don't own Races of the Wild.
Don't you have to worry about things like the Barbarian dying of old age?

Normally yes, but we specifically choose two options(Elan and Killoren) that will never die of old age.

EDIT: Apparently Elans actually do have a maximum age, its just absurdly old. On the bright side they're humans that have been put through a special ritual. So it leaves the choice of having an infinite power supply or refueling every thousand or so years.

Pelfaid
2010-06-27, 06:26 PM
I would go with the recharging. Imagine the plot hook. The cities power source is about to fail and the party must find someone to replace it.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-27, 06:39 PM
EDIT: Apparently Elans actually do have a maximum age, its just absurdly old. On the bright side they're humans that have been put through a special ritual. So it leaves the choice of having an infinite power supply or refueling every thousand or so years.
They were Errata'd (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) to have no maximum age.