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View Full Version : Permanent Shapechanging via Stone Antics



Ashiel
2010-06-26, 06:08 AM
I've long been using stone to flesh to create corpses out of statues (often created via wall of stone + fabricate), because it's convenient and less likely to upset people who have moral qualms about animating things that were alive. However, something recently occurred to me that I wanted to discuss a bit.

Basically, I realized that stone to flesh can create what amounts to permanent shape-changing that cannot be dispelled and is otherwise real (an instantaneous transmutation) and doesn't end in an anti-magic field, and cannot be dispelled. It's undoubtedly outside of what the following spells were intended, but I think it works, or can be made to. Some might see this as abuse, but I'm hoping more will see it as a clever use.

Basically you take the subject who wants to be changed. Let's say we've got a rather sad male half-orc who's always wanted to be a pretty female elf so people will find him attractive, and he can wear the pretty jewelry and dresses without ripping them open with his muscles and being thought of as weird (and it's not weird yet :smallamused:).

So we enter the wizard. Now "a wizard did it" will be entirely true after this. Basically the wizard explains to the half orc that he will undergo a dangerous procedure that could kill him (since stone to flesh includes a DC 15 fortitude or die), but if he's willing to risk it (or foot a raise dead or similar spell), then he'll go through with the procedure. The half-orc agrees, being tickled green that he'll be able to buy that new corset at the tailor shop in the morning.

So the wizard, being un-judgmental in his near infinite knowledge, casts flesh to stone on the half-orc, turning him into a statue. Now, the wizard gets to work by casting fabricate and taking 10 and sculpting the half-orc into an astoundingly beautiful elven maiden. At the end of the process, he casts stone to flesh and revives the half-orc (who made her fortitude save). Voila. A female elf (though likely a bit slow for an elf).

So when his brother in arms Gurthak the Reckless returns to camp as Gurlie the Recklessly Beautiful, Grims the Human fighter decides he wants to go see this wizard too; but for a completely different reason...

Turns out Grims is tired of getting kicked around by ogres and the like, and decides he wants to be bigger. He wants to be a great big man who towers above others. So he goes to the wizard. The wizard repeats this process, only this time casting wall of stone to get some materials to add to Grim; which he does with fabricate; then he finally finishes the job with stone to flesh, ending up with Grim being doubled in size.

Our wizard has re-sculpted the bodies of our heroes, giving them confidence, battle prowess, and leading to awkward relationships further down the road for the two of them; but that's a story for another time.

Rule Analysis
Flesh to Stone notes that changes made to the petrified creature remain after they are restored, while turning them into a mere statue.

Fabricate can make plenty of changes to the statue without ever destroying or harming it, and can easily add to it.

Stone to Flesh finishes the job; and can even turn a type of creature into another type of creature (giving the example of a stone golem to a flesh golem) provided there is still as soul or animating force within the stone statue; otherwise it becomes a corpse of the statue.

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So, any thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2010-06-26, 06:24 AM
You're not the first to come up with the idea, though the usual version uses Stone Shape instead of Fabricate.

I also recall there being problems with the setup of some sort, but I can't quite recall what.

Ashiel
2010-06-26, 06:33 AM
You're not the first to come up with the idea, though the usual version uses Stone Shape instead of Fabricate.

I also recall there being problems with the setup of some sort, but I can't quite recall what.

That doesn't surprise me. I didn't really guess that I was the first one with the idea, but that I just recently thought about it. However, I could see why Stone Shape wouldn't work. It's specifies that it's impossible to get fine details and such.

Fabricate however, can do it. :smallbiggrin:

Bayar
2010-06-26, 06:40 AM
Yeah, but if you wanted to be a Solar for the spellcasting or other uses that are usually associated with shapechange...then you lucked out.

Nidogg
2010-06-26, 07:39 AM
It would make for a Joker style villan.....

Ashiel
2010-06-26, 07:55 AM
Yeah, but if you wanted to be a Solar for the spellcasting or other uses that are usually associated with shapechange...then you lucked out.

I'm guessing you're referring to it not giving you Su / Sp abilities, which seems a perfectly acceptable ruling. I wasn't actually meaning the shapechanging in the shapechange sense. :smalltongue:

As a GM, I'd probably rule the effects as being similar to polymorph (physical characteristics), size increases, or whatever else is the closest proximity to the form being taken (the half-orc in the example would likely be physically an elf but mentally the same - poor thing - while the fighter would have been given a size increase).

I'm gonna have fun with this one. :smallbiggrin:

Lysander
2010-06-26, 08:37 AM
There's a big problem with your plan, and the best way to explain is with an analogy.

Imagine Flesh to Stone is sci-fi style cryogenic freezing. While someone is frozen imagine taking them out, putting them through a meat grinder, and then using a press to sculpt them into the shape of a different creature. You then unfreeze them. What do you get? A big hideous pile of ground chuck that immediately slumps to the floor.

The problem is that each part of the statue still corresponds to what it was beforehand. Any changes count as damage to its original shape. So if you turn a thick orc hand for example into a slender elven hand, you're basically mashing their hand to a pulp and sending the excess stone (representing tissue, muscle, and bone) into other parts of their body.

Ashiel
2010-06-26, 08:49 AM
There's a big problem with your plan, and the best way to explain is with an analogy.

Imagine Flesh to Stone is sci-fi style cryogenic freezing. While someone is frozen imagine taking them out, putting them through a meat grinder, and then using a press to sculpt them into the shape of a different creature. You then unfreeze them. What do you get? A big hideous pile of ground chuck that immediately slumps to the floor.

The problem is that each part of the statue still corresponds to what it was beforehand. Any changes count as damage to its original shape. So if you turn a thick orc hand for example into a slender elven hand, you're basically mashing their hand to a pulp and sending the excess stone (representing tissue, muscle, and bone) into other parts of their body.

There's a big problem with your analogy, and the best way to explain it through strait-forward explanation.

Basically there's this thing called magic, and it says it does the exact opposite of your analogy. You see, it even says that you can take a statue and turn it into a corpse, or a stone golem into Frankenstien. Then there's this thing called Fabricate, which can change the shape of our freeze-dried fellow without grinding him up exactly, but even then it wouldn't really matter because he's a unified whole at the end of the process; where he then is turned back into a living creature.

To put it another way, you're turning to stone. Then magically being altered, and then magically being turned back into a usable body. It's not about turning it back into exactly what it was before it was stone; in fact it didn't have to be anything but stone beforehand. It's magic, not freeze drying machines from outer space.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-26, 09:05 AM
You both have a point. It would be up to a DM to decide how it would work or not. At this point you are makeing the system do something the creaters didn't clearly state, so it's the DM's job to decide of the person comes out as goo or an elf.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-26, 10:39 AM
You both have a point. It would be up to a DM to decide how it would work or not. At this point you are makeing the system do something the creaters didn't clearly state, so it's the DM's job to decide of the person comes out as goo or an elf.

You're making the system do "Polymorph Any Object" with a duration of "instantaneous" instead of "permanent"... :smallwink:

Most DMs I know don't concern themselves with what happens to a person/thing that's been permanently polymorphed goes through an anti-magic area (or whatever) unless:
1) It's part of the plot.
2) The Rule of Funny applies.

As for how I would handle it...

Polymorph (et. al.), says it gives you the form & function (abilities, etc.) of the new form. Further, if you Polymorph someone into a Horse... they can end up mentally becoming a Horse.

If you "fabricate" someone into a Horse... without the magic inherent in the Polymorph spell, they don't "become" a Horse (or a female elf, or whatever). They lack the essential instincts of the new form.

For some forms (the two examples given), it would just take some time. The "female elf" would never gain the natural grace of their new form... and might even have a very similar voice to their original (modified slightly due to changes in mouth/teeth structure). The "giant orc" would have to take a long time adjusting to his new size/strength/reach. He'd have trouble gaging distances as well... because, though his viewpoint is higher his mental viewpoint hasn't changed.

Someone who is changed this way into a Hydra would likely be paralyzed by indecision... thier conciousness separated into multiple pieces. Changed into a Dragon? No flying, that's for sure... unlikely to be able to properly access the breath weapon... walking would be ackward for a long time... no real control of the tail for quite a while.

Yeah, for some changes this would be fairly safe... but for big stuff it would be a disaster.

Draz74
2010-06-26, 10:47 AM
Assuming the rest of the process works, changes the creatures' shape, and doesn't kill them ...

I fail to see why the ex-orc elven maiden wouldn't have green/gray skin and hyperactive sweat glands.

Not all physical traits are a property of body shape.

Ashiel
2010-06-26, 12:14 PM
You're making the system do "Polymorph Any Object" with a duration of "instantaneous" instead of "permanent"... :smallwink:

Kind of. I was thinking more along the lines of the polymorph spell however. Polymorph any object turns you into the other creature specifically, which I believe may come with mental adjustments and possibly special powers.

Polymorph on the other hand just changes the body. You could turn into a dragon, but not breath fire, or gain magical spells, or think like a dragon; so while you may have a sweet new form, you're dealing with your class features and new form will allow you.

Since we're just changing the body, and in D&D size of body, brain, or even the existence of such is irrelevant to intelligence or other cognitive functions, it seems like a good idea to avoid making them have the mind of a horse; as an example. :smalltongue:

Either way, it's just fun to talk about. :smallsmile:

Lysander
2010-06-26, 12:15 PM
Even assuming the trick works, you definitely want to use a spell other than Fabricate. With Fabricate the object transformed is a material component, which by definition is destroyed. So the statue you end up with isn't necessarily the same person, but might just be an inert corpse when turned back.

Flickerdart
2010-06-26, 12:29 PM
Even assuming the trick works, you definitely want to use a spell other than Fabricate. With Fabricate the object transformed is a material component, which by definition is destroyed. So the statue you end up with isn't necessarily the same person, but might just be an inert corpse when turned back.
Then you Raise Dead them, or Create Undead, or Incarnate Construct or what have you. The mad science never stops!

awa
2010-06-26, 12:39 PM
I vaguely remember this being mentioned on the wizard of coast website and it seemed to support the elf shaped orc corpse idea.

Just some points to mention how are you making stone bones/muscle? how are you making a stone nervous/ circulatory system those seem far far beyond the limits of a fabricate or stone shape spell (which have only very limited ability to work in details). People aren't like statues their are lots of microscopic things that are really important if you get them wrong you don't have an elf shaped orc you have an elf shaped corpse.

So it seems to me that the raw interpretation would give you a mutilated corpse but as always rule 0 if your dm wants it go for it.

Alleine
2010-06-26, 01:11 PM
I wonder if you could just toss out the fabricate on some of this. After all, being an adventuring wizard you would come into contact with many creatures that you could Flesh to Stone and carry home. Next time the fighter wants to be more strong, or taller, or have some tusks, just go to your private stock.

Admittedly this would be tricky, but perhaps less so that fabricate or stone shape. Fighter wants a better arm? Well, you just happen to have nice beefy orc, or other buff medium sized creature with just the right pair of arms. Shear off the fighter's arms and fuse the new ones on. He'll look freaky with a human body and orc arms, but a little hat of disguise ought to work fine.
Same with adjusting size, though this would be a bit harder to do, matching up torsos and making sure you don't accidentally remove the spleen without including a partial torso that has a new spleen in working order and position.

You may need a fleshwarper sidekick to make sure things don't go too horribly wrong.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-26, 01:19 PM
It says in the spell that changes to the statue "If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities."
Warping a pretryfied goblin may make it look like a statue of a halfling, but when you de-petrify the subject, they will look like a halfling, assuming it survives, sorta, but they won't be halfling.