PDA

View Full Version : How to Un-Petrify someone?



Dark Herald
2010-06-26, 10:54 PM
We are in a dungeon, in a remote location that it would be a pain (IC) to leave, and are on a time sensitive mission that does not really allow us to abandon it. We fought some Fiendish basilisks, and our Ninja got Petrified. We have one Cleric, a Dragon Shaman, and a Monk as the rest of our party.

The Cleric has War and Healing Domains, and I'm not sure of his exact build.

The question is: is there a way, using basically only a 13th level cleric, to heal a petrified person. My best guess was Greater Restoration, which doesn't but should allow unpetrification.

Books: Core, Completes, Dungeonscape, Psionics Handbook, Ebberon, PHB2, Stormwrack, ToB

Kaulesh
2010-06-26, 10:57 PM
Would this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakenchantment.htm) apply? I seem to remember Break Enchantment and being turned to stone mentioned in the same post somewhere.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-26, 10:57 PM
Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm).

Kiren
2010-06-26, 10:59 PM
A chisel?


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm

As written, petrification impedes movement.

Aeromyre
2010-06-26, 11:03 PM
Well you could maybe run to your closest big city, and find a scroll salesman with a scroll of Stone to Flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stonetoFlesh.htm) it's a 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell

CubeB
2010-06-26, 11:06 PM
Petrified
A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

A Chisel is not a good idea.

Break Enchantment, however, is.

As a 13th level Cleric, all they have to do is pray for it.

veovius
2010-06-27, 12:11 AM
As per your title, :

Stone to Flesh :smallbiggrin:

bobspldbckwrds
2010-06-27, 12:24 AM
A Chisel is not a good idea.


are you sure? it may be a mercy, considering that they are a ninja.

Wonton
2010-06-27, 12:27 AM
are you sure? it may be a mercy, considering that they are a ninja.

ZING! :smallbiggrin:

ninjaneer003
2010-06-27, 12:29 AM
A Chisel is not a good idea.



your right. A Chisel is a GREAT idea!

Scorpions__
2010-06-27, 12:30 AM
There's also the Wondrous Item 'Stone Salve' from The Dungeon Master's Guide that you could use. Any way to get a hold of that?





DM[F]R

Sliver
2010-06-27, 01:01 AM
are you sure? it may be a mercy, considering that they are a ninja.

How is it any more mercy then letting them remain stoned? They won't die. Chiseled they will just be broken and forever trapped.

Guys, he is asking for a spell for a level 13 cleric. Items and other spells won't do, since he can't access anything like that from where they are.

AdamSmasher
2010-06-27, 01:08 AM
Your ninja is totally porked.

Break enchantment won't work because Stone to Flesh can't be dispelled by dispel magic and is higher than 5th level. It's a level out of Break Enchantment's reach.

CubeB
2010-06-27, 01:11 AM
Dude, if I was the GM, I'd just let you use Break Enchantment.

...Also, that reminds me to grab a Crystal of Bent Sight. Thanks!

dextercorvia
2010-06-27, 01:15 AM
He wasn't petrified by a Stone to Flesh spell, however, so it might work. At least I would let it if I were the DM and this was the only option available. I have two other thoughts.

The ninja could reroll as a wizard and cast stone to flesh on his former character. Then use the ninja as a familiar. Or...


You could hop in your airship and fly to Elfland (the shop at Corneria doesn't carry soft potions). Airships are fast. I'm sure you'll make it back in time.

gooddragon1
2010-06-27, 01:16 AM
Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect.

It will might work. See below comic strip comments.

On page 70 of the OOTS comic there is something pertaining to this perhaps.

EDIT: Something interesting,


If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

Flesh to stone is lvl 6. It shouldn't have worked in the comic. However, a basilisk gaze is not a spell. So it might work.

AdamSmasher
2010-06-27, 01:26 AM
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

Now that I look at it, basilisks don't have their petrification based on a spell. By RAW, only Stone to Flesh will work. I would talk this out with your DM, though. A reasonable DM will let Break Enchantment or maybe even Dispel Magic (It does say permanent in there =D) free your ninja.

CubeB
2010-06-27, 01:44 AM
The Basilisk's Gaze is considered a Supernatural ability. It can't be dispelled with Dispel Magic, but Break Enchantment should work.

Beorn080
2010-06-27, 02:23 AM
I'd HATE to be a stickler for intelligent dungeon design, but assuming this isn't a natural cave but a fortress of some sort, and assuming the basilisks aren't summoned, the denizens of the fortress will have, assuming they have a brain more powerful then a turnip, a cheap and reliable method of depetrification, due simply to the fact that accidents will happen.

Even if they were summoned, the summoner, assuming he summons such summons summarily, should stockpile stonesalve for his slaves.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-27, 02:43 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm

As written, petrification impedes movement.

Umm no, petrification turns you into a rock and its instantaneous. There is no magic for the freedom of movement to negate. Your a rock.
By that logic having your legs cut off can be cured by freedom of movement.
Almost NO DM would let that one slide.

Keld Denar
2010-06-27, 02:52 AM
Ruby Ray of Reversal is a 6th level wizard Abjuration in the Spell Compendium. It does a number of things, one of which is undoing various nasty transformations, among which petrificiation is listed. Unfortunately for your situtation, it is ONLY a wizard spell. That said, you might be able to get a scroll of it somewhere and make friends with a wizard (or anyone with high UMD) and use it.

J.Gellert
2010-06-27, 03:15 AM
I'd HATE to be a stickler for intelligent dungeon design, but assuming this isn't a natural cave but a fortress of some sort, and assuming the basilisks aren't summoned, the denizens of the fortress will have, assuming they have a brain more powerful then a turnip, a cheap and reliable method of depetrification, due simply to the fact that accidents will happen.

Even if they were summoned, the summoner, assuming he summons such summons summarily, should stockpile stonesalve for his slaves.

Which goes to show how expensive such monsters can be, if you are deploying them next to normal, petrifiable minions.

Hague
2010-06-27, 03:36 AM
This spell frees victims from enchantments,
transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.

If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. For instance, bestow curse cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, but break enchantment can dispel it.

If the effect comes from some permanent magic item, such as a cursed sword, break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects. For example, a cursed item can change the alignment of its user. Break enchantment allows the victim to be rid of the item and negates the alignment change, but the item’s curse is intact and affects the next creature to pick up the item—even if it’s the recent recipient of the break enchantment spell.

Break enchantment can remove Flesh to Stone regardless of the actual level of the spell. Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous spell, so it cannot be dispelled at all. It can however, be reversed, as it is a transmutation. The dispel magic description lays out this rule:


Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect. Thus, you can’t use dispel magic to repair damage caused by a fireball or to turn a petrified character back to flesh. In these cases, the magic has departed, leaving only burned flesh or perfectly normal stone in its wake.
I bolded that part in the first quote. The spell reverses the petrification because it cannot be dispelled period. What this means is that that clause is invalid and we reverse the effect of any transmutation, enchantment, or curse that is instantaneous. This includes any kind of polymorph with an instantaneous duration. Permanent spells can be dispelled, and if they couldn't be dispelled by dispel magic, then they could be dispelled by break enchantment if they were a curse, transmutation, or enchantment and a level lower than 5.

This what makes Break Enchantment different from "just another dispel spell"

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-27, 03:40 AM
{Scrubbed}

If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

hamishspence
2010-06-27, 03:44 AM
In which case, how come:


Break Enchantment
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-27, 04:14 AM
@Vulkodlak: I believe that statement is mainly a reference to things which are specifically immune to dispel magic.

Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic.

Here's an example:

The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

Simply being instantaneous isn't enough, since dispel never works on instantaneous effects while break enchantment specifically does. So, it has to be that dispel magic fails for some other reason before that clause can come into play.

Dark Herald
2010-06-27, 04:37 AM
Well you could maybe run to your closest big city, and find a scroll salesman with a scroll of Stone to Flesh it's a 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell

Sorry, makes no sense in this situation. Waste of time (IC). Our characters didn't know each other too well.


are you sure? it may be a mercy, considering that they are a ninja.

His Ninja is more optimized than any other character in the group, although really only mine and his are at all. But I appreciate the joke.


There's also the Wondrous Item 'Stone Salve' from The Dungeon Master's Guide that you could use. Any way to get a hold of that?

Not likely, but it's the kind of solution I was Expecting


Now that I look at it, basilisks don't have their petrification based on a spell. By RAW, only Stone to Flesh will work. I would talk this out with your DM, though. A reasonable DM will let Break Enchantment or maybe even Dispel Magic (It does say permanent in there =D) free your ninja.

The basilisks were Abyssal Greater Basilisks, if that helps any.


I'd HATE to be a stickler for intelligent dungeon design

I don't think there was too much though put into the ecology. The DM was kind of distraught after how fast we had finished the previous combats. Long story that involves a monk dealing lots of damage each round and Shocktrooper with a greatclub. :smallbiggrin:


Ruby Ray of Reversal is a 6th level wizard Abjuration in the Spell Compendium.

Again, the answer I was looking for... however, stone to flesh is also a 6th level wizard spell, so redundant but still appreciated. :smallwink:


It will might work. See below comic strip comments.

Yeah, this has managed to be more confusing. Break Enchantment is... so so right now. Does it work, or not? Our DM is new at DMing, but I would like to stick to the rules. It would suck for our Ninja to not play for the rest of the dungeon, but it is supposedly "Almost over." Worst comes to worst he plays Xbox for an hour or so.
Again, I appreciate all the comments.

Hendel
2010-06-27, 04:48 AM
Keep hitting him with your Rod of Wonder and hope you roll a 98 to 100

It worked for me once a long time ago. Of course we had a Rod of Wonder (actually it was 1st edition so it was a Wand of Wonder) and you guys probably don't, but it is a viable alternative (unless the ninja was carrying the rod).

Aeromyre
2010-06-27, 09:33 AM
Sorry, makes no sense in this situation. Waste of time (IC). Our characters didn't know each other too well.

Makes no sense? It's a completely viable solution, if your characters cared about him at all then you wouldn't be trying to unpetrify him. You don't have a wizard or a sorcerer to cast this spell it seems to me that it's the best thing you could do unless Break Enchantment actually works.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-27, 09:48 AM
Break Enchantment is... so so right now. Does it work, or not? Our DM is new at DMing, but I would like to stick to the rules. It would suck for our Ninja to not play for the rest of the dungeon, but it is supposedly "Almost over." Worst comes to worst he plays Xbox for an hour or so.

Break enchantment works. If you saw my post up above, you'll see why. Basically, having an instantaneous duration isn't enough to trigger the "can't be reversed by dispel magic" clause which limits the spell level, because break enchantment explicitly works on instantaneous effects. Therefore, the general rule of "break enchantment frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses (regardless of spell level)" applies.

EDIT: It's not in the SRD version, but the Player's Handbook specifically lists flesh to stone as an example of an instantaneous effect that break enchantment reverses. It should work just as well on a basilisk's petrifying gaze.

Solophoenix
2010-06-27, 10:09 AM
EDIT: It's not in the SRD version, but the Player's Handbook specifically lists flesh to stone as an example of an instantaneous effect that break enchantment reverses. It should work just as well on a basilisk's petrifying gaze.

Likely because the SRD was updated at some point to remove the contradictory information.

El Dorado
2010-06-27, 10:30 AM
The FAQ specifically mentions that a petrified victim can be restored through a break enchantment spell.

Hague
2010-06-27, 10:57 AM
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. For instance, bestow curse cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, but break enchantment can dispel it.


How do I fail at reading again? Instantaneous effects can't be dispelled at all. This spell REVERSES effects that are transmutations, enchantments and curses. The first part never says dispel. Flesh to stone cannot be dispelled, so this clause does not apply to it, you still have to make a caster level check to reverse the effect, however. This means that break enchantment will defeat any non-epic transmutation, enchantment or curse with an instantaneous effect. If the effect is permanent or has a duration, it can be dispelled and therefore this clause applies. Bestow Curse, for instance, can't be dispelled by dispel magic, but it can be dispelled by break enchantment, it has a Permanent duration. The clause in Dispel magic that defines how permanent spells work doesn't say "can't be dispelled by dispel magic" it just says "can't be dispelled."

Instantaneous spell effects cannot be dispelled, the spell is no longer THERE to dispel so this cannot possibly apply, however, the the effect can still be REVERSED so the first conditional is met, but the second conditional is not met because permanent effects can't be dispelled, hence Break Enchantment defeats Flesh to Stone, Transmute Metal to Wood, and so on, regardless of their level. Again, you still must make a caster level check to defeat it.

Darrin
2010-06-27, 11:06 AM
Likely because the SRD was updated at some point to remove the contradictory information.

The PHB trumps the SRD.

I'm not sure why the mention of stone to flesh was pulled out of the SRD, but I highly suspect it was due to "poor editing" rather than a willful decision made by the designers.

gooddragon1
2010-06-27, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure about the FAQ example, but the PHB example says


...can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone.

This might just mean that flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect, not necessarily that you could remove it through break enchantment. They could have listed contagion, but it feels weird to think about it like that. This might be what they fixed with the SRD. I think they'd need to mention it as a specific exception in either flesh to stone or break enchantment by saying [even though flesh to stone is a 6th level spell it can be removed by a break enchantment spell] or something similar. Now, since it was a basilisk that did it, it doesn't have a spell level and is an instantaneous effect. Thus I think in your case it should work since it doesn't violate the spell level rule.

Hague
2010-06-27, 01:07 PM
It can REVERSE any instantaneous enchantment, transmutation, or curse regardless of level. It can DISPEL any spell with a duration that is not instantaneous that has a spell level 5 and lower that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic and that is a curse, enchantment or transmutation. Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous spell that once it turns you to stone, the spell is no longer in effect, so it cannot be dispelled, the spell isn't there to be dispelled. However, this effect can still be reversed, specifically with a caster level check against the petrifying creature (in this instance, against 11+ the HD of the basilisk)

The level of the spell doesn't matter for instantaneous spells because once they are cast they are DONE. You cannot dispel a spell that is NOT THERE. This means that the clause relates to spell level and dispelling DOES NOT APPLY. Permanent spells can be dispelled. Some permanent spells cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, if they are 5th level or lower, then Break Enchantment can dispel them. Since instantaneous spells cannot be dispelled this rule doesn't apply.

If I heighten transmute rock to mud to 6th level, I can still reverse its effects with Break Enchantment. If I heighten Bestow Curse to 6th level, I cannot reverse its effects because to do so, I would need to dispel it and break enchantment can't dispel effects over 5th level. The difference is that Transmute is an instantaneous transmutation which cannot be dispelled at all and Bestow Curse is a permanent curse which cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, but it can be dispelled because it is not instantaneous. However, since it is heightened to over 5th level, break enchantment can't dispel it, even though Bestow Curse at a lower level could be dispelled as a permanent effect.

This makes especially good sense, since extraordinary and supernatural attacks don't have spell levels but they do have effective caster levels. Since the basilisk's gaze isn't a spell, it doesn't have a spell level and thus break enchantment can reverse it as it is a transmutation.

Yora
2010-06-27, 01:27 PM
{Scrubbed}

No U!

"Petrifying Gaze" is not a spell, but a Supernatural Ability.

Dr.Epic
2010-06-27, 01:29 PM
Wouldn't flesh to stone be the most obvious choice?

Aeromyre
2010-06-27, 01:36 PM
Wouldn't flesh to stone be the most obvious choice?

That's what I said but it apparently doesn't make sense to him lol

Sliver
2010-06-27, 01:45 PM
That's what I said but it apparently doesn't make sense to him lol

Wouldn't reading the first post be the obvious choice?

The question is obviously more than just the title, otherwise the first post would only contain "What title said."

A six level wizard/sorcerer spell just doesn't work for a party with only a cleric caster.

He said it makes no sense, because in his situation it just doesn't. "I'm in the middle of the desert and I have no ways of travel. Are there any ways to do X." "Go to town and get X" isn't an answer that makes sense.

Hague
2010-06-27, 02:41 PM
Yes, the answer is Break Enchantment. Your cleric can cast this and save the ninja. Don't listen to the people that say it doesn't work, they don't know what they're talking about. Petrifying gaze isn't a spell or a spell-like ability so it doesn't have spell levels so Break Enchantment works on it.

Dust
2010-06-27, 02:51 PM
I'm with the Break Enchantment crowd - I see no reason the spell doesn't work in this situation.


Makes no sense? It's a completely viable solution, if your characters cared about him at all then you wouldn't be trying to unpetrify him.
This bugs me, a lot. So much so that I just couldn't let it slide.
I suppose a huggy after-school-special group might be apalled by the thought of leaving a companion like this, but for a lot of of gamertypes, we realize that it's D&D, character death happens, setbacks happen. If you're on a time-sensitive mission of great importance, sometimes you just have to pat the statue on a granite shoulder and say 'sorry buddy - we'll come back for ya.'

capfang
2010-06-27, 03:39 PM
what the book says.
Break Enchantment Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break
enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed
magic item, the DC is 25. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled
by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or
lower. For instance, bestow curse cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, but break enchantment can dispel it. If the effect comes from some permanent
magic item, such as a cursed sword, break enchantment does not remove the
curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the items effects. For
example, a cursed item can change the alignment of its user. Break enchantment allows the victim to be rid of the item and negates the alignment change, but the items curse is intact and affects the next
creature to pick up the item—even if its the recent recipient of the break enchantment spell.

Unless theres errata, it says that it fixes flesh to stone. The level 5 thing is meant for stuff that says dispel magic doesn't work on it.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 07:41 PM
Well, the ability isn't really a spell or a curse at all, so I don't see why break enchantment would work at all.
How about you leave him there and come back for him later? It's not like he's going anywhere...

taltamir
2010-06-27, 07:46 PM
I'd HATE to be a stickler for intelligent dungeon design, but assuming this isn't a natural cave but a fortress of some sort, and assuming the basilisks aren't summoned, the denizens of the fortress will have, assuming they have a brain more powerful then a turnip, a cheap and reliable method of depetrification, due simply to the fact that accidents will happen.

Even if they were summoned, the summoner, assuming he summons such summons summarily, should stockpile stonesalve for his slaves.

unless he is zykon, immune to petrification by virtue of being a lich, and finds the petrification of his slaves to be hilarious.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 05:52 AM
The note about stone to flesh was not removed by any errata. It's just that the SRD lacks certain bits of clarifying text that aren't really necessary, because if you use common sense then you can see that instantaneous effects cannot be dispelled at all by anything because they have already ended. However, they can still be reversed by break enchantment as long as it is an enchantment, transmutation, or curse.

Since being petrified is clearly a form of transmutation (whether it is specifically called out as being such or not, whether it is caused by an actual spell or by some other effect), it is eligible to be reversed by break enchantment.

/thread

2xMachina
2010-06-28, 08:09 AM
Since being petrified is clearly a form of transmutation (whether it is specifically called out as being such or not, whether it is caused by an actual spell or by some other effect), it is eligible to be reversed by break enchantment.

/thread

But, but it's transmutation , not enchantment! :smallwink:

gooddragon1
2010-06-28, 08:37 PM
The note about stone to flesh was not removed by any errata. It's just that the SRD lacks certain bits of clarifying text that aren't really necessary, because if you use common sense then you can see that instantaneous effects cannot be dispelled at all by anything because they have already ended. However, they can still be reversed by break enchantment as long as it is an enchantment, transmutation, or curse.

Since being petrified is clearly a form of transmutation (whether it is specifically called out as being such or not, whether it is caused by an actual spell or by some other effect), it is eligible to be reversed by break enchantment.

/thread

Flesh to stone is a 6th level spell that cannot be dispelled with dispel magic. Break enchantment works on spells like that if they are 5th level or lower. It is quite possible that the designers didn't realize that it was a 6th level spell when they said "such as flesh to stone". Typically when you get a specific exception to a rule of a spell it's printed as: The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

It should come out and state in this case: Although flesh to stone is a 6th level spell, break enchantment is capable of removing it. Or something similar in the text of flesh to stone. It would be unusual for it to be mentioned like that in break enchantment but it would also work.

Bottom Line: I think the authors didn't check the spell level of flesh to stone and thought of it as the best example given the lack of published spells like that at the time. A point of hope: a basilisks gaze does not have a spell level.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:45 PM
But, but it's transmutation , not enchantment! :smallwink:

Yes? Break enchantment also works on transmutations.


Flesh to stone is a 6th level spell that cannot be dispelled with dispel magic. Break enchantment works on spells like that if they are 5th level or lower. It is quite possible that the designers didn't realize that it was a 6th level spell when they said "such as flesh to stone". Typically when you get a specific exception to a rule of a spell it's printed as: The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

It should come out and state in this case: Although flesh to stone is a 6th level spell, break enchantment is capable of removing it. Or something similar in the text of flesh to stone. It would be unusual for it to be mentioned like that in break enchantment but it would also work.

Bottom Line: I think the authors didn't check the spell level of flesh to stone and thought of it as the best example given the lack of published spells like that at the time. A point of hope: a basilisks gaze does not have a spell level.

:smallsigh:

Look, if you want to read that line as including spells that can't be dispelled simply because of an instantaneous duration, that's fine. But I think it can be read either way, since there are spells (such as bestow curse) which are specifically impossible to lift with dispel magic. Personally, I think that's what the line was referring to, but I guess I can see how you might take the broader limitation.

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:45 PM
Flesh to Stone is a 6th level transmutation that can't be dispelled AT ALL because it's INSTANTANEOUS. Instantaneous spells cannot be dispelled because there IS NO SPELL TO DISPEL. The spell is gone, finito, kaput, pining for the fjords, headed to a higher plane, dead, done. Since there is no spell, there is no spell level, but the effect still has a caster level and thus can be reversed with this spell.

gooddragon1
2010-06-28, 08:52 PM
Yes? Break enchantment also works on transmutations.



:smallsigh:

Look, if you want to read that line as including spells that can't be dispelled simply because of an instantaneous duration, that's fine. But I think it can be read either way, since there are spells (such as bestow curse) which are specifically impossible to lift with dispel magic. Personally, I think that's what the line was referring to, but I guess I can see how you might take the broader limitation.

I just feel like: "such as flesh to stone" is mentioning it in passing rather than as a specific exception.


Flesh to Stone is a 6th level transmutation that can't be dispelled AT ALL because it's INSTANTANEOUS. Instantaneous spells cannot be dispelled because there IS NO SPELL TO DISPEL. The spell is gone, finito, kaput, pining for the fjords, headed to a higher plane, dead, done. Since there is no spell, there is no spell level, but the effect still has a caster level and thus can be reversed with this spell.


Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect.

This specific exception mentioned within the break enchantment spell itself is what allows for the removal of such effects.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:57 PM
I just feel like: "such as flesh to stone" is mentioning it in passing rather than as a specific exception.

It IS just mentioned in passing. My stance is that, since break enchantment specifically works on instantaneous effects, that alone should not activate the "if it can't be dispelled" clause (since instantaneous effects can NEVER be dispelled).

But like I said, I can see how you can view it the other way.

Hague
2010-06-28, 09:01 PM
Yes, this is true, but Break Enchantment does not 'dispel' these effects. It 'reverses' them. The wording is very funky, but you cannot dispel something that is not a spell. The result of an instantaneous spell is such that after the spell is gone, the effect remains. That's why this only works with transmutations, enchantments and curses. If you could reverse evocations or conjuration (healing) spells the bookkeeping would be a nightmare. This is why you cannot dispel instantaneous effects, they are explicitly designed to not be dispelled.

The first line of break enchantment says 'reverse' not 'dispel' The sub-routine that checks for level is based on spells that explicitly cannot be dispelled by dispel magic (or a dispel magic variant) If the spell can be dispelled by dispel magic, then break enchantment doesn't affect it. This means that any spell with a duration that is not 'instantaneous' ie. Permanent, 1 round/level, 1 min/level, 1 hr/level, etc that can't be dispelled by dispel magic and is lower than 6th level, can be dispelled by break enchantment. Since Flesh to Stone is an instantaneous spell, it doesn't get dispelled, but it still gets 'reversed'

2xMachina
2010-06-29, 02:27 AM
Yes? Break enchantment also works on transmutations.



It's a joke.

taltamir
2010-06-29, 02:33 AM
EDIT: It's not in the SRD version, but the Player's Handbook specifically lists flesh to stone as an example of an instantaneous effect that break enchantment reverses. It should work just as well on a basilisk's petrifying gaze.

so that is why!

I remembered that break enchantment explicitly states it reverses petrification... but when I looked it up in the SRD I didn't see it and chalked it up to faulty memory... turns out I should have checked the PHB... just one of the many things the SRD missed.

Doc Roc
2010-06-29, 02:47 AM
This is a little out of character, but I actually think that the intent is pretty clear here, and no one is going to really suffer long-term if break enchantment is allowed to work. In fact, you all stand to gain.

Alternatively, characters do die. If he has to roll a temp, it's not the end of the world. You can even meet his new toon in the dugneon as a prisoner.