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molten_dragon
2010-06-27, 06:22 AM
Time to get creative playground. Show me your ideas of what the most difficult to play character you can think of is. I'm not talking about a bad character necessarily, simply one that's hard to play because of the massive amounts of bookkeeping involved, or some other factor.

My first idea is a druid with wild cohort and leadership, and chooses another druid as their cohort for leadership. Assuming you ignored the followers, you'd be controlling bare minimum 5 creatures every combat (2 druids + 2 animal companions + 1 wild cohort). If you started summoning, it could get out of hand ridiculously fast.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-27, 06:29 AM
Illusion mastery wizard with the collegiate wizard feat. There are probably a few other feats to get extra spells too. Then there are PRCs that add spells to your spellbook.

Say hello to a minimum of 132 spells. That's before adding in spells from other spellbooks and cantrips (And you know every cantrip ever made from any source)

It's possible I'm reading the class slightly wrong though.

Amphetryon
2010-06-27, 06:33 AM
Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist (Conjuration) 4/Magus of the Arcane Order 10/Geometer 3//Psion (Telepath) 10/Thrallherd 10.

EDIT: Clarity.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-27, 06:35 AM
Oh yeah, Gestalt could be a bookkeeping nightmare.

Sliver
2010-06-27, 06:36 AM
My first idea is a druid with wild cohort and leadership, and chooses another druid as their cohort for leadership. Assuming you ignored the followers, you'd be controlling bare minimum 5 creatures every combat (2 druids + 2 animal companions + 1 wild cohort). If you started summoning, it could get out of hand ridiculously fast.

Dread necromancer with Undead Leadership gets you much more bookkeeping than a druid.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-27, 06:39 AM
I made a level 24 Illithid Savant for a game a while back. I had 20th level wizard, 20th level psion, a few Chokers' extra standard actions, Shadow Pounce, a few Blink Dogs' free-action teleports, a Goristro's two-handed fists, Leap Attack, Pounce, and a Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack, with Improved Rapidstrike, and 10th level Kensai enchantments on my fists. There was quite a bit more, but I'm pretty sure the only thing the DM didn't let me have was the Tarrasque's only-a-wish-can-kill-it Regeneration. I would get about eight full attacks every round, power attacking with leap attack and Valorous Speed fists on the first full attack, and teleporting around to every opponent within sight for the rest of the round. Even though I got ten attacks/round, nothing survived past the fourth 600+ damage hit.

Then I had to level up to 25, which gave me another +1 BAB. Time to recalculate all those Power Attack numbers, regular charge starting out, flying so no Leap Attack, no power attack bonus if they have Elusive Target, etc. I must have spent over an hour just recalculating my attack and damage chart. The next few times I leveled up, I didn't even bother updating any of it, it wouldn't have even mattered.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-27, 06:40 AM
Dread necromancer with Undead Leadership gets you much more bookkeeping than a druid.

Can somebody remind me if it's this class or True necromancer that's the bad one?

And if the good one is dread necromancer, can somebody inform me of which book it's in?

Octopus Jack
2010-06-27, 06:41 AM
Can somebody remind me if it's this class or True necromancer that's the bad one?

And if the good one is dread necromancer, can somebody inform me of which book it's in?


I believe the Dread Necromancer is the good one, its from heroes of horror

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-27, 06:45 AM
Dread Necromancer is in Heroes of Horror, and I've played one of those too.

I had a Half-Golem Curst under my control. Curst are immune to turn and rebuke attempts from clerics and paladins, so my Dread Necromancer controlled it just fine. A Curst will always keep coming back unless you use a Remove Curse spell on its remains, and Half-Golem made it outright immune to that, so it was the perma-pet. I also had an Arrow Demon and Cave Troll Skeletons with Awaken Undead, some sort of mount I don't remember what, a Spellstitched Slaymate that was the character's own daughter, and the character's Tainted Minion brother was his undead cohort. When my turn came everyone would get up to go make a snack.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-27, 06:45 AM
The True Necromancer is the crap one, as it's a Mystic Theurge, but worse.

Dread Necromancer is like the Warmage or Beguiler.

Ernir
2010-06-27, 06:49 AM
Eh, some form of a triple-9 summoner would be on the top of the bookkeeping nightmare list, I guess...

The one I have found most mechanically difficult to play is my VoP character, though. Being flat-out disallowed to use magic items is difficult at the mid levels.

Project_Mayhem
2010-06-27, 07:16 AM
Anything from FATAL

Vangor
2010-06-27, 07:58 AM
Single character without purposefully making matters more difficult for yourself would probably be the Fochlucan Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant. The Lyrist requires 2 Rogue/1 Rogue/1 Druid and 6 more class levels to meet minimum requirements, progresses Bardic Music, progresses Arcane and Divine casting, and has a mass of skills alongside the animal companion of the Druid if you care. The Hierophant progresses both Arcane and Divine casting as well as the familiar and animal companion lines of its now one companion, which to me is more effort than the skills and music or the lackluster companion of the Lyrist.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-27, 09:57 AM
How about this Factotum 11/Chameleon 7/Binder 1(improved binding feat)/Totemist 1//Wizard 13/ Mage of the arcane order 7/ Taking MotAO whenever not taking Chameleon levels.
Could get more complicated with more PrCs.
So with this you have to keep up with 2 soulmelds(unless using feats to get more), a vestige of level one to two, inspiration points, Chameleon spells for likely both arcane and divine spell when you spell list is pretty much Yes for spells up to fifth level(Bonus feat -extra spell changing the spell each day), normal wizard spells, and the MotAO spell pool.

Amphetryon
2010-06-27, 10:02 AM
Single character without purposefully making matters more difficult for yourself would probably be the Fochlucan Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant. The Lyrist requires 2 Rogue/1 Rogue/1 Druid and 6 more class levels to meet minimum requirements, progresses Bardic Music, progresses Arcane and Divine casting, and has a mass of skills alongside the animal companion of the Druid if you care. The Hierophant progresses both Arcane and Divine casting as well as the familiar and animal companion lines of its now one companion, which to me is more effort than the skills and music or the lackluster companion of the Lyrist.

There are ways to get into Fochlucan Lyrist with practically no multiclassing. Certain ACFs for Rangers could allow a Rilkan Ranger 10 entry, if I remember correctly. It's not the optimal way, but it's less 'difficult'.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 10:09 AM
Then I had to level up to 25, which gave me another +1 BAB. Time to recalculate all those Power Attack numbers, regular charge starting out, flying so no Leap Attack, no power attack bonus if they have Elusive Target, etc. I must have spent over an hour just recalculating my attack and damage chart. The next few times I leveled up, I didn't even bother updating any of it, it wouldn't have even mattered.

You get epic bonuses on attack rolls, not extra BAB.

Choco
2010-06-27, 10:09 AM
lvl 20 Psion/Thrallherd with 2 thralls, a lvl 19 Thrallherd and a lvl 18 Thrallherd. Each of them has 2 thralls, repeat until the character levels get below 15, in which case only 1 thrall each until levels drop below 5. Also, every last one of them that is lvl 6 or higher also has leadership, with each cohort of high enough level being a Thrallherd with leadership. All that plus the thousands of believers. Have fun keeping track of all that :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2010-06-27, 10:37 AM
Artificer. Far and away, Artificer. No class has a larger disparity between floor (a terribad Tier 5) and ceiling (a Tier 1 to give any Wizard a run for his money), and no class requires more game knowledge to get up to high levels of power.

Also, just for the purposes of getting a obscene number of things to sort out every morning, Binders, Factotums, Meldshapers, and prepared casters are all problematic. Gestalt? Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage//Factotum/Totemist. Congratulations, you have ~50 spells, ~3 Vestiges, ~2 Pact Augmentations, ~2 Arcane Dilletante spells, and ~5 soulmelds with ~3 chakra binds to decide. Every morning.

Sliver
2010-06-27, 11:06 AM
I don't think most people prepare all their spells every morning from scratch... I think most have a default set with most of the spell slots empty, so it shouldn't be too hard to handle in a few minutes...

balistafreak
2010-06-27, 11:26 AM
I don't think most people prepare all their spells every morning from scratch... I think most have a default set with most of the spell slots empty, so it shouldn't be too hard to handle in a few minutes...

It is usually a better idea to not prepare all of one's spells at the same time, if possible. (Divine spellcasters have to, because they can only pray once a day, but arcane casters just have to sit down for a bit.)

However, just like how the majority of (bad) wizards out there take Fireball even when the campaign doesn't call for it, the majority of (bad) wizards out there prepare Fireball even in a highly tense diplomatic mission. :smallamused:

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-27, 11:47 AM
ignoring level because you can always make things more complicated when you just up the level.

Summon focused buffing cleric. . . in simplicity of concept, without going overboard. . . summoning massive amounts of creatures then having to apply various stat adjustments to each one as you buff them all would be a bit heavy on bookeeping. . . you could exagerate this with prestige classes and dips but for the base i think this would be it

Sliver
2010-06-27, 11:56 AM
Divine spellcasters have to, because they can only pray once a day

No they don't. They can refresh their spell slots once per day at prayer time, but they can fill them later just as wizards can. Nothing in the rules says they can't leave spell slots open, and it says they prepare just as wizards prepare, except as noted. It is not noted that they can't fill spell slots later, only that they can refresh them at a specific time of day.

balistafreak
2010-06-27, 12:00 PM
I am a numbskull. Disregard that, carry on. :smallannoyed:

Vangor
2010-06-27, 01:59 PM
There are ways to get into Fochlucan Lyrist with practically no multiclassing. Certain ACFs for Rangers could allow a Rilkan Ranger 10 entry, if I remember correctly. It's not the optimal way, but it's less 'difficult'.

Hrmm, no clue what the Rilkan is. However, seems unlikely they would get Divine and Arcane casting as well as Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Music (not a requirement, but seeing as this is the reason for the Lyrist as opposed to Hierophant or even an MT, seems pointless to ignore) plus the ability to speak Druidic. Anyone who can do this with one class should just not bother with Lyrist.

Of course, what seems reasonable enough is for a Bard to actually possess evasion anyway, maybe steal away countersong/fascinate or both to provide evasion at 2 or 4. It is the only high Reflex base class I know of which never gets the ability.

Amphetryon
2010-06-27, 02:03 PM
Hrmm, no clue what the Rilkan is. However, seems unlikely they would get Divine and Arcane casting as well as Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Music (not a requirement, but seeing as this is the reason for the Lyrist as opposed to Hierophant or even an MT, seems pointless to ignore) plus the ability to speak Druidic. Anyone who can do this with one class should just not bother with Lyrist.

Of course, what seems reasonable enough is for a Bard to actually possess evasion anyway, maybe steal away countersong/fascinate or both to provide evasion at 2 or 4. It is the only high Reflex base class I know of which never gets the ability.

Rilkan is a Race from Magic of Incarnum; one of the Racial ACFs gives Bardic Knowledge - though on review that's Rogue, so Rogue 2/Ranger 9 might be needed.

Magic in the Blood, Sword of the Arcane Order, and other Feats can be used to qualify for the Arcane Casting requirement, and Mystic Ranger allows for a better casting progression.

Vangor
2010-06-27, 02:12 PM
Rilkan is a Race from Magic of Incarnum; one of the Racial ACFs gives Bardic Knowledge - though on review that's Rogue, so Rogue 2/Ranger 9 might be needed.

Magic in the Blood, Sword of the Arcane Order, and other Feats can be used to qualify for the Arcane Casting requirement, and Mystic Ranger allows for a better casting progression.

Seems reasonable, though from all appearances this is merely meeting the requirements (minus Druidic) while actually lacking Arcane casting progression in terms of additional spells as well as having no Bardic Music ability. I suppose if a person was determined not to do a third multiclass they could about halve their total assortment of spells and ignore the Lyrist part of the PrC in order to qualify to make this less difficult, but you could just as well kill your own familiar and never care to ready spells as a really simple Wizard to play.

SurlySeraph
2010-06-27, 03:05 PM
The Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) would have some pretty hellish bookkeeping, though Choco's Leadership-stacking Thrallherds would probably be worse.

Dairun Cates
2010-06-27, 03:11 PM
Here's what you do. You go into any point buy system, and you take 1 rank in a bunch of cheap powers and as many random addictions and phobias as you can for bonus points. For some systems, buy your stats at weird prime numbers. Add in ALL the optional mechanics rules for GURPS and put yourself at weird height and weight proportions.

After all that, if you can keep up with all the stuff, you're probably pretty dang good at this...

Of course, you could also play Burning Wheel and take something like 50 skills at the lowest you can take them and keep up with all the challenges for each skill.

Knaight
2010-06-27, 03:16 PM
It appears that D&D was not specified.

Anyone in FATAL.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-27, 03:17 PM
I'll second artificer. It's just... so complex. So much to keep track of: money, time, craft points, XP, CL for various spells, CL for items made in the past, infusions, action points, construct minions...

Hague
2010-06-27, 03:20 PM
Or you could just play a Rigger in Shadowrun 3e...

Jorda75
2010-06-27, 03:20 PM
Not sure if it's been said but the Druid can be a nightmare class, especially for a new player. Wildshape being the obvious mind boggler, you have to keep track of all the shapes you know, their physical stats, how that changes your attacks combined with your BAB and how your statistics change when your magic items are absorbed into the new form (assuming you don't have wilding clasps or time to take them off and put them back on).
You also get to track the stats for your animal companion and how he changes with new HD and your level advancement and bonuses.
Then you have on top of all that the spell casting, spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally and what creatures/how many/what they can do that you can summon. And that's just the base class! :smallconfused:
I've been playing for a long time, so the druid is old hat to me, but I've had more than one person who was starting out say, "Oh the druid looks cool." and I'm forced to say, "Yes well, they're pretty complicated..."

Dairun Cates
2010-06-27, 03:20 PM
It appears that D&D was not specified.

Anyone in FATAL.

I'd agree with you guys, but let's face it. When has a character in Fatal survived past 1 combat? Sure, it's a lot of book-keeping for that one encounter, but after that, it's sweet,sweet nothing.

ryzouken
2010-06-27, 03:22 PM
I'll second the Artificer and posit that a Chameleon can be rough to play assuming the following:

+Cha = +Turn Undead attempts

because we now have recursive turn attempts. Burn 7 to persist a Nixie's Grace granting +8 Cha and therefore 4 turn attempts. It's diminishing returns, sure, but when I can drop upwards of 20 points of Cha buffs, I have to calculate out each casting to ensure my Turn Undead pool doesn't "ground out" (hit negatives). This, in addition to managing two spell pools, plus whatever my base class(es) are granting (which in my current build is Factotum, so more spell like abilities and inspiration points.)

But it's the Artificer that gets special note. I've yet to have any other character that required I perform algebra for routine tasks. Stupid craft cost reduction feats... It's also the only build I've been tempted to use calculus to map my damage with. I guess it comes with the territory of tossing 240d6 /round.

Knaight
2010-06-27, 03:23 PM
I'd agree with you guys, but let's face it. When has a character in Fatal survived past 1 combat? Sure, it's a lot of book-keeping for that one encounter, but after that, it's sweet,sweet nothing.

My three alternate personalities and I that you are talking to (as opposed to the two you left out) would like to point out that character creation is part of playing a character. Plus, they have rules for much more than just combat in that game, which I'll leave at that. Plenty of book keeping for them too.

PId6
2010-06-27, 03:49 PM
I'll second artificer. It's just... so complex. So much to keep track of: money, time, craft points, XP, CL for various spells, CL for items made in the past, infusions, action points, construct minions...
And they're oh so much fun! :smallbiggrin:

balistafreak
2010-06-27, 04:19 PM
Being able to play a competent Artificer and have fun is like graduating D&D. It's proof of your knowledge and mastery of the D&D economy and rule systems.

No, I haven't been able to do this yet. I always try something stupid like imitating a Wizard with a hojillion wands or concentrate on random, pointless, but hilarious wondrous items. :smallamused:

Morph Bark
2010-06-27, 04:48 PM
A Gestalt character with 1 level in every base class, as many templates and grafts as possible, the Item Familiar feat and a Psicrystal.

Of course, that's not even trying yet and we have only hit low-epic.

Akal Saris
2010-06-27, 08:40 PM
Or you could just play a Rigger in Shadowrun 3e...

That was my 1st Shadowrun character!

And my first in D&D 3.0 was a summoning druid. I really need to challenge myself less :P

As for my thoughts on D&D 3.5, I'd say from experience that any summoning-focused character can be a TON of paperwork. You need lists of creatures you can summon (especially if stuff like the outsiders from MMIII, etc, are allowed), stats for your summoned creatures which all have to be modified by augment summoning and other abilities, and all that on top of the usual caster stuff.

For a wizard you also have to keep track of all the metamagics you're probably abusing as well as your spells known and memorized, and possibly a familiar, cohort, and planar binding outsiders as well. Not to mention tracking battlefield control spells like glitterdust and whatnot.

A druid meanwhile has to keep track of her animal companion, any animals from Initiate of Nature or simple Charm Animals, a possible cohort, and have stats ready for all those creatures dependent on buffs she casts. All while deciding whether to cast or wildshape battle the fight.

A cleric meanwhile has to keep track of buffs, any rebuked undead/elementals/etc, a possible cohort, any planar ally spells running, and the HP/status of the other PCs in case she needs to stop summoning and do a Heal spell or something.

For D&D 4E, I'll go with a binderlock. Lots of tiny little +1's and +2's and every time you use a daily you change up your at-will. Still far less trouble than a 3.5 spellcaster, but I need a really big character sheet to keep all my info :P

Dairun Cates
2010-06-28, 03:53 AM
My three alternate personalities and I that you are talking to (as opposed to the two you left out) would like to point out that character creation is part of playing a character. Plus, they have rules for much more than just combat in that game, which I'll leave at that. Plenty of book keeping for them too.

I was actually referring to the 1-2 OTHER suggestions for Fatal already as well. Still, as bad as Fatal was, I'm not sure it counts as bookkeeping as much as mindless rolling.

Still, yes, FATAL is horrendous with its crazy long character sheet. Still, 6 hours of character creation and 1 hour of play is still less than an entire campaign on the average. My current character in a D20 modern game is actually close to a bookkeeping nightmare. He's got a whole LOT of minor combat actions he can pull from a lot of talents, and he has feats and class levels that give him more weird things.

For instance... He has a feat that gives him improved saves but has the stipulation of requiring his loyalty to a person and a -4 on sense motive, bluff, and diplomacy against said person. He also gains his 14 Will save as a bonus to his spot check when surprised. On top of that, he has an explorer lore check which works separate of a regular check, next level he can spend an action point to take a 5 foot step. He can raise his to hit by 2 for melee or 1 for range after 1 round of combat by making a 15 on an int roll using his smart hero levels. He can also make a trick by making a 15 int check for a 15 save. He gains a +2 on action points. Critical hits have a +4 to confirm on him. He gains half his explorer class level on intimidation and fear effects AND on search check for hidden doors. He also has an infinite array of useless powers as a mutant power...

On top of all that, he's trained in something like 20 skills and has a rather unusual feat selection that heavily influence his combat abilities.

Also, his gun got turned into a piglet tricycle and his laser sword is now a guitar... Long story. But yeah. Lot of paperwork, and he's gone from like level 3 to 9. So, decent length campaign.

For time spent, he's not as bad as a FATAL character, but on the whole, I've probably spent more time on bookkeeping for him than most people will on their FATAL character.

Tytalus
2010-06-28, 05:01 AM
My first idea is a druid with wild cohort and leadership, and chooses another druid as their cohort for leadership. Assuming you ignored the followers, you'd be controlling bare minimum 5 creatures every combat (2 druids + 2 animal companions + 1 wild cohort). If you started summoning, it could get out of hand ridiculously fast.

It doesn't even need all that to be complex:


Not sure if it's been said but the Druid can be a nightmare class, especially for a new player. Wildshape being the obvious mind boggler, you have to keep track of all the shapes you know, their physical stats, how that changes your attacks combined with your BAB and how your statistics change when your magic items are absorbed into the new form (assuming you don't have wilding clasps or time to take them off and put them back on).
You also get to track the stats for your animal companion and how he changes with new HD and your level advancement and bonuses.
Then you have on top of all that the spell casting, spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally and what creatures/how many/what they can do that you can summon. And that's just the base class! :smallconfused:
I've been playing for a long time, so the druid is old hat to me, but I've had more than one person who was starting out say, "Oh the druid looks cool." and I'm forced to say, "Yes well, they're pretty complicated..."

Totally.

It boggles the mind that druid is actually quite frequently recommended for new players.


Gestalt? Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage//Factotum/Totemist.

As a dual-progression PrC, Anima Mage is not a suitable choice for gestalt.

gorfnab
2010-06-28, 05:23 AM
Single character without purposefully making matters more difficult for yourself would probably be the Fochlucan Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant. The Lyrist requires 2 Rogue/1 Rogue/1 Druid and 6 more class levels to meet minimum requirements, progresses Bardic Music, progresses Arcane and Divine casting, and has a mass of skills alongside the animal companion of the Druid if you care. The Hierophant progresses both Arcane and Divine casting as well as the familiar and animal companion lines of its now one companion, which to me is more effort than the skills and music or the lackluster companion of the Lyrist.

Fochlucan Lyrist isn't that bad if you have the right build.
Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Or
Bard 1/ Druid 4/ Green Whisper 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Back on topic, Truenamer looks difficult to play mainly because of how broken (as in requiring a lot of fixes and what not to get it to work correctly) it is.

Gnaeus
2010-06-28, 10:13 AM
Beguiler/Shadowcraft mage

I don't have any problem picking spells in the morning. That isn't hard. As someone pointed out, you have a basic spell list that you usually use and you just tweak it as needed. If necessary, you have 2 spell lists (like an in town list and an adventuring list). That isn't hard for me. I can usually do it at home in my spare time.

But picking the right option from the hundreds of spells available through shadow evocation and conjuration and the beguiler list is hard. And you have to do that every single round, which means you are doing it on the clock. Rainbow Warsnake is similarly hard.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-28, 10:26 AM
As a dual-progression PrC, Anima Mage is not a suitable choice for gestalt.
Unearthed Arcana recommends that DMs not allow them, but does not actually say they can't be used, for one. For another, many DMs will let you take a dual-progression PrC in gestalt if you qualify entirely on one side.

kjones
2010-06-28, 10:27 AM
It doesn't even need all that to be complex:



Totally.

It boggles the mind that druid is actually quite frequently recommended for new players.



As a dual-progression PrC, Anima Mage is not a suitable choice for gestalt.

Simple fix for the druid's complexity is the Shapeshifter variant from PHB II - no animal companion, and shifting is much simpler than wildshape.

Knaight
2010-06-28, 10:36 AM
On another note of interest, it was not specified that the difficulties were due to mechanics. Thus: Warrior Monk who can only speak in proverbs. Every, in character line, must be a proverb. The fact that someone was playing this, I was playing other members of the order, and we were able to have a conversation that both of us understood while making up proverbs left and right is miraculous.

Telonius
2010-06-28, 10:38 AM
I'm going to go a bit off-the-wall here and say either Cleric or Bard. Not because it's difficult for you to play, but because it makes it a bit more difficult for both you and everybody else to play. Keeping track of which party buffs are active adds time to the whole group. Especially when you get into higher levels, remembering which is which can be murderous if you don't do something like use spell cards or keep a cheat sheet.

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 10:42 AM
Especially when you get into higher levels, remembering which is which can be murderous if you don't do something like use spell cards or keep a cheat sheet.

If you're not already doing this, you're doing it wrong.

PId6
2010-06-28, 03:50 PM
I'm going to go a bit off-the-wall here and say either Cleric or Bard. Not because it's difficult for you to play, but because it makes it a bit more difficult for both you and everybody else to play. Keeping track of which party buffs are active adds time to the whole group. Especially when you get into higher levels, remembering which is which can be murderous if you don't do something like use spell cards or keep a cheat sheet.
It's been fine for our group. We just remind the other players "Remember your +4 attack +3 damage from cleric buffs" and such whenever it's relevant. Most of our buffs last all day though (yay DMM), so it's a bit easier to handle than shorter duration ones.

Zovc
2010-06-28, 03:54 PM
Anyone mention the Truenamer yet?

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 05:16 PM
Anyone mention the Truenamer yet?

:smallannoyed:

*punch*

There's hard to play, and then there's needlessly hard to play.

Okay, so the mechanics of Truenaming actually aren't all that hard to play out. It's just the trouble you have to go through for you to actually do anything is Totally Not Worth It.

Umael
2010-06-28, 06:15 PM
Anyone with an accent.

I don't mind bookkeeping, role-playing opposite gender, psychos, wimps, lots of die-rolling... but playing anyone with an accent is a pain.

AslanCross
2010-06-28, 06:16 PM
Gestalt Artificer//Wizard//Crusader.

The building an artificer alone feels like doing accounting homework.
The Wizard feels like doing a research paper with the need for all the relevant spells to be on index cards.
The Cruader is like doing that while playing Magic: The Gathering on the side.

Flavel
2010-07-02, 03:26 PM
Has anyone tried building a Factotum/Chameleon/Master of Masks?

OMG! What is that thing!

sofawall
2010-07-02, 03:51 PM
Artificer Artificer Artificer. Holy crap Artificer. Doc Roc recently made one, and I'm sure he too would agree. He had to make an Excel spreadsheet just to get his scrolls in a usable format.

EDIT: And building one at a level above 1? Wow. You have to build your items at level 1, with your level 1 casting reserve. And then at level 2, with your increased CL and craft reserve. And then at level 3, where you may be able to craft a different type of item, at a higher CL, with a greater craft reserve.

It's a massive nightmare.

Amphetryon
2010-07-02, 03:55 PM
Has anyone tried building a Factotum/Chameleon/Master of Masks?

OMG! What is that thing!

I shall call him, Atreu.... :smallwink:

Zovc
2010-07-02, 04:01 PM
Artificer Artificer Artificer. Holy crap Artificer. Doc Roc recently made one, and I'm sure he too would agree. He had to make an Excel spreadsheet just to get his scrolls in a usable format.

EDIT: And building one at a level above 1? Wow. You have to build your items at level 1, with your level 1 casting reserve. And then at level 2, with your increased CL and craft reserve. And then at level 3, where you may be able to craft a different type of item, at a higher CL, with a greater craft reserve.

It's a massive nightmare.

Maybe instead of trying to build good combo decks for Magic: the Gathering with self-imposed challenges to entertain myself, I should start building Artificers?

sofawall
2010-07-02, 04:05 PM
Only if you want to go mad.

Better yet, take cost reduction feats, but not all at first level. Spread them out. Maybe dip unbound scroll.

ryzouken
2010-07-02, 04:14 PM
Has anyone tried building a Factotum/Chameleon/Master of Masks?

OMG! What is that thing!

Hehe. I'm currently playing one, with Changeling for race.
"What day is it? Hmm... I think I'll be the second cousin of Duke ___ today. He's a fighter type, right? Got it. Okay, let's roll. Wait, it's Thursday? Then I have got to be the flatmate of the third sister of General ____. She's a cleric? No problem."

Only level 4 at this point, but the campaign is set to run all the way into deep epic (level 30+). Mwahahaha!

Zeta Kai
2010-07-02, 04:42 PM
On another note of interest, it was not specified that the difficulties were due to mechanics. Thus: Warrior Monk who can only speak in proverbs. Every, in character line, must be a proverb. The fact that someone was playing this, I was playing other members of the order, and we were able to have a conversation that both of us understood while making up proverbs left and right is miraculous.

Not to be a topper :smallredface:, but a PC in my last campaign was cursed to speak exclusively in haiku. An example of his (mercifully-short-lived) work:


The orc hides inside.
He holds the key to progress.
MacGuffins ahoy.

Needless to say, his smart mouth eventually got him killed good & proper. The player was relieved to do something less taxing.

Flavel
2010-07-02, 10:05 PM
I'm considering an oddball character with a level progression of:

Bard (1)
Factotum (2-8)
Master of Masks (9)
Factotum (10)
Sublime Chord (11)
Master of Masks (12-20)

This would end up being Bard-1/Factotum-8/SublimeChord-1/Master of Masks-10

The only issue to this build that I can see is that Sublime Chord requires level 3 arcane spellcasting. Now @ level 8 a factotum can can cast level 3 arcane spells but, er, its casted as a spell-like ability. Apparently the Factotum sorta "fakes" the casting.

Anyone care to make a ruling?

balistafreak
2010-07-02, 10:40 PM
Maybe instead of trying to build good combo decks for Magic: the Gathering with self-imposed challenges to entertain myself, I should start building Artificers?

I play Magic regularly. Combo decks are nothing - you only have 60 cards (unless you're doing something really oddball) and Gatherer has everything you will ever need underneath one search engine.

An Artificer20? ... not so much. Holy. F---ing. S--t.

An Artificer's loadout level by level, counting for craft reserve and available cash at each level, adjusting for discount feats taken and retrained at specific moments, and then optimized for the right blend of items needed to rule the world, would probably be accepted as a thesis by many college classes.

Heaven knows that they're all just as incomprehensible anyways. :smallamused:

DarkEternal
2010-07-03, 11:25 AM
Paladin, always paladin, since you depend a lot on the group you are with, and your own common sense that paladins seem to lack. While I clearly dislike the "stick up his arse" paladin, they are still a chore to play through and sooner or later the entire party will hate you to oblivion.