Kind of a joke, but...

[Scarey Nerd]

This is a bit of a joke question, but has serious implications:

What happens if a female PC engages in... relations, with a male NPC? Do you roll a d% for chance of pregnancy?

Would be kind of a gamestopper :smalleek:

[Yuki Akuma]

No. You do not roll dice to determine if the female PC is pregnant. That is ridiculous and anyone who does that deserves to have their DM licence revoked.

[Volthawk]

BoEF has rules for that. I think. Never looked, really.

[Scarey Nerd]

No. You do not roll dice to determine if the female PC is pregnant. That is ridiculous and anyone who does that deserves to have their DM licence revoked.

The RP oppurtunities for raising a child whilst on the move in an adventuring party would turn D&D into a sitcom, I guess.

[Yuki Akuma]

The RP oppurtunities for raising a child whilst on the move in an adventuring party would turn D&D into a sitcom, I guess.

If it's appropriate for the game, it happens without needing a bloody dice roll!

[Calmar]

It is said that in the middle ages, people believed certain herbs could prevent pregnancy. I suppose in D&D they do.

[Yuki Akuma]

It is said that in the middle ages, people believed certain herbs could prevent pregnancy. I suppose in D&D they do.

Protip: certain herbs do prevent pregnancy. Where exactly do you think birth control pills came from? Magic?

[Scarey Nerd]

If it's appropriate for the game, it happens without needing a bloody dice roll!

:smalltongue: I naturally assumed that, WOTC being who they are, dice rolls would be involved at some stage. Don't get me wrong, I love WOTC with all my heart (Ok, slight exagerration), but they love a dice roll.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Actually, one Play by Message Board game I'm in had that happen. And she DID get pregnant. With twins.

Admittedly, this game has taken place over the events of... I don't really know how long. The party consists of pureblood werewolves, elves homebrewed with a longer lifespan, and other long-lived species, so the time spent NOT adventuring and just giving RP or telling stories is easily given.

[Scarey Nerd]

Actually, one Play by Message Board game I'm in had that happen. And she DID get pregnant. With twins.

Admittedly, this game has taken place over the events of... I don't really know how long. The party consists of pureblood werewolves, elves homebrewed with a longer lifespan, and other long-lived species, so the time spent NOT adventuring and just giving RP or telling stories is easily given.

Sounds like an interesting game! How long were the elves lifespan?

[Calmar]

Protip: certain herbs do prevent pregnancy. Where exactly do you think birth control pills came from? Magic?

I'm glad you're smart. I'm not sure how relevant modern pharmacognosy and and contraceptives are relevant for characters in a (supposedly) medieval fantasy setting, though.

[Scarey Nerd]

I'm glad you're smart. I'm not sure how relevant modern pharmacognosy and and contraceptives are relevant for characters in a (supposedly) medieval fantasy setting, though.

Well, I saw a long list of D&D herbs once, perhaps it was mentioned there, as Yuki is right, modern birth control pills must be formed from natural substances, as magic is less reliable nowadays :smallsmile:

[onthetown]

You can if you want, but it would be more appropriate to roll for the gender (unless you already have the child in mind as a character) or for miscarriages during battle and whatnot.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Sounds like an interesting game! How long were the elves lifespan?

About twice as long as normal. So something like 1400 years? Actually, it's a subtype, really, with SR 15, PR 15, and WIS +2. It was a story event that changed my character, so the DM didn't give me LA.

[Scarey Nerd]

About twice as long as normal. So something like 1400 years? Actually, it's a subtype, really, with SR 15, PR 15, and WIS +2. It was a story event that changed my character, so the DM didn't give me LA.

I like that, sounds like a nice subtype, especially since I think Elves shouldn't even have an age limit for their lifespan, being an avid (I think that's the riht word) lover of the Eragon series and the Elves therein.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I like that, sounds like a nice subtype, especially since I think Elves shouldn't even have an age limit for their lifespan, being an avid (I think that's the riht word) lover of the Eragon series and the Elves therein.

That'd be nice. But eventually the world would be populated with a billion really, REALLY old elves.

Unless adventurers try to farm the melee ones for XP. >.>

[Maerok]

That'd be nice. But eventually the world would be populated with a billion really, REALLY old elves.

Unless adventurers try to farm the melee ones for XP. >.>

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

[2xMachina]

IMO, SR is more of a pain than being useful. "Oh look, a team mate is buffing me. I better sit here and do nothing so that it doesn't fizz."

Age generally does not enter into a PC's factor. If you fight lvl appropriate enemies, 3x a day, you'd be lvl 20 within a year. And when you're epic, I don't think age ever enters into the equation.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

Good question. Depends on the world, I guess.

[Magic Myrmidon]

IMO, SR is more of a pain than being useful. "Oh look, a team mate is buffing me. I better sit here and do nothing so that it doesn't fizz."

Age generally does not enter into a PC's factor. If you fight lvl appropriate enemies, 3x a day, you'd be lvl 20 within a year. And when you're epic, I don't think age ever enters into the equation.

Well, I'm the wizard, so I'm the one doing the buffing.

Yeah, age doesn't make a big deal, usually, but I can see this game going for a long time regarding in-game years.


Especially since the party psion is a timelord. Long story.

[Choco]

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

The fact that they are made (VERY selectively) and not born, most likely. Same goes for Warforged. Looks like someone at Wizards actually thought this one through :smalltongue:.

Though if a race of people that can potentially have 20+ kids per couple had an infinite lifespan, yeah, that would be a problem without some way to cull the herd.

[2xMachina]

Immortal Rabbits.

Oh god, we're overrun with them.

[Morph Bark]

Though if a race of people that can potentially have 20+ kids per couple had an infinite lifespan, yeah, that would be a problem without some way to cull the herd.

Yeah, I've seen that happen.

Needless to say, their family eventually conquered the world.

[KillianHawkeye]

No. You do not roll dice to determine if the female PC is pregnant. That is ridiculous and anyone who does that deserves to have their DM licence revoked.

What if you don't want to make the decision yourself? It's not like you can in real life. I've been in a game where dice were used, and the end result was most satisfactory.

So I guess what I'm getting at is "Don't knock it 'till you've tried it." :smallwink:

[Choco]

Now that I think about it, overpopulation is really a temporary problem.

Creature <x> has no natural predators and/or has such a high rate of reproduction that the birth rate exceeds the death rate, so the population can grow unchecked. Eventually the population reaches a point where there just aint enough resources to go around. At that point, they start dying off due to lack of resources (food and shelter) and due to fighting over the few resources there are. Until eventually the population drops back down to a sustainable level, and the cycle repeats itself.

This would make for an interesting campaign actually. Elves that never die of old age are reaching the breaking point, so they start invading the other races territories. At that point all the other races join forces to BECOME the "natural predators" of the elves and keep their population under control, or the elves win and eventually run out of resources anyway, though only after wiping out most other beings :smalltongue:

[Thajocoth]

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

The Belkar, obviously... :smallbiggrin:

If a player in a game of mine decided that their character has sex, I'd roll a bunch of d20s, ask their Endurance score and their Fort Defense, and probably not say another word... Just 'cause it'd be funny. Later, if I decided I wanted the plot hook, I'd claim the dice did it, which would ultimately be a lie. I would roll for lesser details of the situation though... Roll a (very low for most NPCs, but high if they picked an obvious skank) chance that the NPC had something to catch, and if so an attack against Fort to see if they catch it. (I like using the disease system.) If I take the pregnancy plot hook, roll a d20: 20 = twins. Stuff like that.

[Totally Guy]

Next session I run will be all about one of the PC's wives giving birth. It's been a long time coming and it could all go wrong for them. Complications are coming.

As for elves... well surely everyone knows they eventually elect to get aboard the ship to the west from whence they never return. Alternatively less composed elves eventually see too much tragedy in the world and waste away due to grief.

[Tedesche]

Protip: certain herbs do prevent pregnancy. Where exactly do you think birth control pills came from? Magic?

Well...I don't know if that's strictly correct, actually. The pill is basically a dosing of synthetic hormones, which screw with the female reproductive system and prevent it from operating properly. I don't think they're actually derived from plants in any way, but...I'm no chemist.

And I can understand the TC's logic about rolling dice to determine if the woman gets pregnant—although I hope it's a low percentage for the sake of not running into a different sort of overpopulation problem! True, it's not how the body actually works, but it's fine as a game mechanic. I don't think most DMs would bother though; what's the fun in playing a swaggering bard or a nearly-naked, muscle-ridden barbarian if you can't barge into a tavern, order a drink, and sleep with every slutty beer wench in town without having to worry about the consequences? :smalltongue: This is fantasy. This is escapism. Consequences like that are sometimes best left in the real world.

[Xallace]

You should probably ask the player if she's OK having a baby or not. If not, don't roll. If she wants it, let it happen (maybe after a few tries). If indifferent, maybe a 25% chance on the d%. Although the actual chance would probably depend on species; 15% for elves? 45% for Orcs? 120% for anthropomorphic bunnies?

[onthetown]

You should probably ask the player if she's OK having a baby or not. If not, don't roll. If she wants it, let it happen (maybe after a few tries). If indifferent, maybe a 25% chance on the d%. Although the actual chance would probably depend on species; 15% for elves? 45% for Orcs? 120% for anthropomorphic bunnies?

Bunnies of any kind would just have an automatic success. Roll 5d100 to determine how many is in the "litter".

[taltamir]

This is a bit of a joke question, but has serious implications:

What happens if a female PC engages in... relations, with a male NPC? Do you roll a d% for chance of pregnancy?

Would be kind of a gamestopper :smalleek:

are you the DM or the player?
If you are the DM, then your response to "I have sex with him" should be "... moving on". Don't roll for STDs or pregnancy, don't dwell on it... just move along. Actually, I wouldn't even say whether the seduction was successful or not. If other players ask I would answer "your character has no knowledge of what happened between <PC name> and <NPC name>". If it is the player of the PC who is doing the sexing... well... that is getting complicated and really depends on your personality, the other person, your relationship, etc...

If you are the player, then you should consider carefully whether:
1. you want to have your PC sleep with NPCs.
2. if you want your PC to get pregnant
3. do you really believe the rest of the players want this kind of game.

[Tinydwarfman]

Wow, I'm surprised this thread has gone on this long without talking about

The Game Which Must Not Be Named

Eek, now I feel dirty for being the one to bring it up...
But serious, do not name something so vile, for you shall attract it's attention, and soon one of your players will come to the table saying "So I found this really cool game online..."

[Zovc]

YOU THINK PREGNANCY IS A JOKE?!?!?!

[/trollpost]

[Claudius Maximus]

There are actual contraceptive herbs statted out in FRCS. So they exist in that setting, at least.

[taltamir]

There are actual contraceptive herbs statted out in FRCS. So they exist in that setting, at least.

lol... is that WOTC telling us that the response to "my PC has sex with that NPC" should be "ok, do you use protection?"

[Ranos]

In a pinch, there's always Iron Heart Surge :smallcool:

[dgnslyr]

In a pinch, there's always Iron Heart Surge :smallcool:

Don't you mean Falcon Punch? :smallconfused:

[Lhurgyof]

Wait, aren't there rules in like the BoEF or something?
Why waste time having sex when you can take the feat chaste life?!
Sure, no sex, but that's +2 on a stat! That'll kick "Great [stat]" Right out of the park.

[Mr.Moron]

I think it's the sort of thing that shouldn't happen unless the PC brings up in the first place.

Besides given the amount of body fat you see on the average fantasy female in art I doubt they're very fertile.

[Escheton]

It's a fun tangent, or it could be. Provided it's the kinda game where you roll for random crap and have a laugh. Or you can handle this sorta thing like a serious part of a pc's life.
If the pc has a good sitter or someone to take care of the kid when adventuring, or the npc isn't a deadbeat dad, this could work.
Adventuring is also just a career and plenty of women have coped with maintaining both a career and a homelife.
It's not the thing for long protracted dungeoncrawl games or any other campaign with little downtime or roleplaying.
I like the concept.

As for the actual rolling: first roll for time of month if you hadn't already chosen a cycle. If indeed in that window pick a percentile you consider fun/realistic and roll.

[Beorn080]

Ya know, on the one hand its horribly reckless, but on the other, it would be fairly safe to take your kid adventuring. Bag of Holding, Bottle of air, and the severed heads of your fallen foes for toys, and you've got a portable play pen.

[TroubleBrewing]

Roll a (very low for most NPCs, but high if they picked an obvious skank) chance that the NPC had something to catch, and if so an attack against Fort to see if they catch it. (I like using the disease system.)

A player in one of the first games I was in visited a "house of ill-repute" in-game many many moons ago.

The DM rolled on a table he made in Excel with all of the D&D diseases on it.

This particular game was when I learned of a lovely thing called "slimy doom".

[Thajocoth]

A player in one of the first games I was in visited a "house of ill-repute" in-game many many moons ago.

The DM rolled on a table he made in Excel with all of the D&D diseases on it.

This particular game was when I learned of a lovely thing called "slimy doom".

Heh, I haven't heard of it, so it was likely never ported to 4e, but diseases are the one thing I can easily homebrew on the spot. I can't even name my NPCs without a list of pre-generated names by race. Town names, same deal. But diseases? Instant.

[Scarey Nerd]

are you the DM or the player?
If you are the DM, then your response to "I have sex with him" should be "... moving on". Don't roll for STDs or pregnancy, don't dwell on it... just move along. Actually, I wouldn't even say whether the seduction was successful or not. If other players ask I would answer "your character has no knowledge of what happened between <PC name> and <NPC name>". If it is the player of the PC who is doing the sexing... well... that is getting complicated and really depends on your personality, the other person, your relationship, etc...

If you are the player, then you should consider carefully whether:
1. you want to have your PC sleep with NPCs.
2. if you want your PC to get pregnant
3. do you really believe the rest of the players want this kind of game.

I am a player, but I'm not playing a female PC, this was all a hypothetical question as to the consequences of such a scenario. It sprang to mind after I recalled a session a couple of yeras ago that I was DMing, and I put a brothel in a city to see the players reaction. Needless to say I never did it again, and it eventually ended with me having to make the brothel spontaneously combust to stop the PCs. To which they replied that since I made it happen, it's not spontaneous, leading to a scream of "WELL THEN THEY JUST COMBUST!".

[2xMachina]

I am a player, but I'm not playing a female PC, this was all a hypothetical question as to the consequences of such a scenario. It sprang to mind after I recalled a session a couple of yeras ago that I was DMing, and I put a brothel in a city to see the players reaction. Needless to say I never did it again, and it eventually ended with me having to make the brothel spontaneously combust to stop the PCs. To which they replied that since I made it happen, it's not spontaneous, leading to a scream of "WELL THEN THEY JUST COMBUST!".

What if they go: "That's Hot! I've Pyrophilia!"?

[Scarey Nerd]

What if they go: "That's Hot! I've Pyrophilia!"?

I probably would have played up to it and let them burn in ecstacy :smallamused:

[Sliver]

Now that I think about it, overpopulation is really a temporary problem.

Creature <x> has no natural predators and/or has such a high rate of reproduction that the birth rate exceeds the death rate, so the population can grow unchecked. Eventually the population reaches a point where there just aint enough resources to go around. At that point, they start dying off due to lack of resources (food and shelter) and due to fighting over the few resources there are. Until eventually the population drops back down to a sustainable level, and the cycle repeats itself.

Except in a world of magic, where just every small block of members can get an eternal wand of Tiny Hut. If it's elves, the base time of 5 hours is enough. As for food, you can create Everlasting Rations and Everful Mugs for every member. Or research an arcane version of Create Food and Water and you can get an eternal wand of that too, so it's food for 30 people and shelter for 20. Or, if you don't have enough room for tiny huts, get an eternal wand of extended rope trick, for 16 creatures.

Sure, it costs, a lot, but with time a community could get enough gold to support all members without some dying off.

[Siegel]

It is said that in the middle ages, people believed certain herbs could prevent pregnancy. I suppose in D&D they do.

Nightshade for example. I don't think you can get pregnant after consuming it in the right dose

[herrhauptmann]

No. You do not roll dice to determine if the female PC is pregnant. That is ridiculous and anyone who does that deserves to have their DM licence revoked.

Is it a female PC, or a female player?
Either way, start with the power of plot. If the player really has no opinions, then go to the dice.

As far as birthcontrol, some herbs might work as birth control by preventing pregnancy. But most work instead by inducing a miscarriage, primarily I think by lightly poisoning the mother, which is enough to form a lethal does to the unborn child. :(

[2xMachina]

I probably would have played up to it and let them burn in ecstacy :smallamused:

Now I've an image of Nuclear Dan's going at it in an inferno.

[Susano-wo]

I hope I don't sound too confrontational: Yuki, I think you need to calm down.

Most of the time, a DM rolling for pregnancy should result in, at the very least, glares from the players. But not always. And I think the answer to when it is appropriate is when everyone argees on it. Its such a touchy subject, so prone to misogynistic subversion, and can so severly screw the character, that it really is in the out of bounds list (as would, I think any number of sexual subjects/situations) [B]unless specifically allowed by all players and the GM.

So if everyone wants to add that level of realistic consequences, great. If everyone thinks rolling for it is ok, great (the only other option would really be to keep track of cycles...which I guess is fine if you want to do it >.>). Otherwise, you are right, Yuki, and it shouldn't be done.

@Taltamir: I don't think there is a one size fits all way to handle that sort of exposition. It would feel odd to me, for instance to have all these things happening at the table that are not known by the PCs that are not hidden by the players, then all of the sudden whether the make it with their intended is kept secret. (though they can spare me the details ^-^;)
Unless it was somehow an important secret. So really its all up to how much detail the group wants, and context.

[Scarey Nerd]

Please try and remember, I specifically said this is kind of a joke, and would almost certainly not come up in a game. If my PC were to frequent a tavern and meet up with a random woman, I should sincerely hope my DM didn't use the words "Contraception"; "Pregnancy check"; "Ovulation cycle" or any such phrases that would make the game a tad too real. I just find the hypothetical idea of a female character having to deal with an Orc attacking her whilst changing a nappy (Diaper for some of you) amusing :smalltongue:

[Ranos]

Except in a world of magic, where just every small block of members can get an eternal wand of Tiny Hut. If it's elves, the base time of 5 hours is enough. As for food, you can create Everlasting Rations and Everful Mugs for every member. Or research an arcane version of Create Food and Water and you can get an eternal wand of that too, so it's food for 30 people and shelter for 20. Or, if you don't have enough room for tiny huts, get an eternal wand of extended rope trick, for 16 creatures.

Sure, it costs, a lot, but with time a community could get enough gold to support all members without some dying off.

Wands are nice for adventurers, but for communities, traps really are the way to go. Any smallish to medium city can afford a trap of create food and water.

[Optimystik]

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

Elans aren't born, they are made. (Literally.)

And I think making a character pregnant should be done with the player's consent, and thus no need to roll.

[Ubercaledor]

Well...I don't know if that's strictly correct, actually. The pill is basically a dosing of synthetic hormones, which screw with the female reproductive system and prevent it from operating properly. I don't think they're actually derived from plants in any way, but...I'm no chemist.


^This.

The active ingredient of the contraceptive pill is a synthetic analogue of human hormone (progesterone, IIRC), which causes the female reproductive system to react as if it were in anoestrus/pregnancy. Strictly speaking if the pill were taken 365days, the body wouldn't cycle at all, but it is theorised that the hormone cycle is necessary for normal brain biochemistry and function (as seen in menopause).

There were indeed natural drugs which were used in the middle-ages etc... primarily by members of the world's oldest professession. These herbs have nothing to do with hormones or the contraceptive pill, but were rather toxic plants that would cause in-utero death in the early stages of gestation.

I don't see the concern with a pregnant PC, I would find it an unique opportunity to RP something unusual, after all, pregnant women are quite functional and are all lovely and wonderful people :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Apparently, certain people think that this sort of thing should be avoided at all costs, but it really depends on the group and the players involved. There is no universal "out of bounds list," although a particular group may or may not have one. Some groups may choose to handle this sort of thing maturely (random dice rolls or not), while others might be immature and still others simply avoid thinking too much about that sort of thing.

There's no wrong way to do it.

[Susano-wo]

Apparently, certain people think that this sort of thing should be avoided at all costs, but it really depends on the group and the players involved. There is no universal "out of bounds list," although a particular group may or may not have one. Some groups may choose to handle this sort of thing maturely (random dice rolls or not), while others might be immature and still others simply avoid thinking too much about that sort of thing.

There's no wrong way to do it.

While I agree that there is more than one right way, I have to say there are wrong ways. UNless there is a specific social agreement allowing these, I would say that assigning pregnancy/STD's, or rolling Pregnancy/STD's (though not limited to these) are objectively not ok. They will, in many many cases, create bad vibes, possibly worse.

Also, I forgot to mention it, but I love the Iron Heart Surge joke :P. I am totally going to introduce that to my group...we already use the Falcon Punch meme.. >.>

[KillianHawkeye]

While I agree that there is more than one right way, I have to say there are wrong ways. UNless there is a specific social agreement allowing these, I would say that assigning pregnancy/STD's, or rolling Pregnancy/STD's (though not limited to these) are objectively not ok. They will, in many many cases, create bad vibes, possibly worse.

No.

My whole point is that is precisely what varies from group to group. Please stop saying that it is universally bad. Not everything has to be politically correct.

[Zaq]

I think it's the sort of thing that shouldn't happen unless the PC brings up in the first place.

Besides given the amount of body fat you see on the average fantasy female in art I doubt they're very fertile.

Thank you.

[Scorpions__]

Why wouldn't you roll to see? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that a character could get pregnant from sex, and it'd always be a % chance of it happening, same with STIs. I mean, they should know the possible consequences of sleeping with someone, and it definitely wouldn't be their choice whether or not they/the NPC got pregnant, that's just not believable.

If someone has sex, you should determine whether or not a child is conceived, it's just fair.

Plus, if they get pregnant, it just gives you the chance to use Unholy Scion from Heroes of Horror... Oh yes...





DM[F]R

[Beorn080]

I'd like to remind everyone of rule 588 of Mr Welch's list.

588. Paladins are immune to STDs, but if I take advantage of this ability, I lose it. Wonderful paradox, isn't it?

[Nero24200]

I think it's the sort of thing that shouldn't happen unless the PC brings up in the first place.

Besides given the amount of body fat you see on the average fantasy female in art I doubt they're very fertile.

Or have a long life expentancy with the armour they wear. Life insurance for an armoured female adventurer must cost an arm or a leg (no pun intended).

[Haarkla]

This is a bit of a joke question, but has serious implications:

What happens if a female PC engages in... relations, with a male NPC? Do you roll a d% for chance of pregnancy?

Would be kind of a gamestopper :smalleek:
I roll d20, on a 1 pregnancy results.
Roll d20 again, on 1 get an STD.

However, in my games, it has always been a male PC and a female NPC.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

wow people are uptight about this. . . as a female Dm/player. . . this is my opinion.

As a DM: i throw a brothel in at every city large enough or with enough traffic to support one. i think its funny and my players all know to use the brothel at their peril. . . i try to stick with realistic chances of getting diseases from a brothel and i have homebrewed some pretty exotic diseases with some pretty harsh penalties. . . I figured a world with multiple species would have some pretty interesting infections since most human diseases started as animal diseases. in a world with regular interspecies relations things could get odd. getting people pregnant is a completely other matter and i only do that if it's hugely plot important and the players WANT it to be part of the game.

As a player: Give the female the same chances you would give any male player. if you' roll to see if your male players got the female npc pregnant use the same roll for the female pc. if you wouldnt roll for it for the boys then dont roll for it for the girls.
Also keep in mind that the chances of the average adventurer bringing a child to term are pretty slim. like many professional athletes they may not even cycle normally just because their body is under so much stress. Add to that dropping below 0 hitpoints or being on the reciveing end of any kind of energy or arcane blast on a regular basis and pregnancy is highly unlikely. most female adventures wouldn't have time to realize they were pregnant if they managed to get pregnant before the healthy physical conditions that support pregnancy were removed. sure there is magical healing but the female body is touchy and isnt likely to support pregnancy if it's barely keeping itself alive.

[Optimystik]

A disease is not a major change to a character - there are numerous ways to get rid of them in a fantasy world, or at worst they can live with the penalties and move on with their lives.

A child is another matter entirely - that is a very significant change to a character, and can raise some very taboo issues at the gaming table. So I am thoroughly against springing such a situation on a player without their consent.

I don't think I'd like to meet the DM (or the person in general) who considers contracting an STD and becoming pregnant to be equivalent, especially in D&D.

[Susano-wo]

Killian.
I never said its universally bad. Not once. I said that it should default to "don't make people roll/assign pregnancy." This is because, as you said, every gaming group is different. So, if a group is ok with rolling, great, but the DM should inform them this before hand (even if its just something like
PLayer"Ok, I'm having sex with him/her/"
Dm: "Ok, that's fine. But that does remind me:I want to talk to everyone about how we want to handle pregnancy..."


But if a group is not, and you spring it on them without asking, you are taking a great risk of hurt feelings and ill will( I like how Optimystik put it: it can be very Taboo). If it works out and no one is offended, cool, but really, the DM dodged a bullet in that case.

(caveat: If you really know your group quite well in this department, and what their feelings are on it, great. This is more of a caution to not assume they will be cool with rolling for such things)

Personally, I wouldn't mind rolled pregnancy if it was reasonable. But I would feel very uncomfortable if I was playing a character, the character had sex, and the DM rolls some dice to see if pregnancy resulted.

@Optimystik: You have a point...I tend to forget about ubiquitous healing in the standard Dnd... (also, completely unrelated, I have to say your newer Avatar is very cool, but I always smiled when I saw the Tyki Mikk AV :P)

@Beorn: honestly, though, there are plenty of situations where you could get an STD but not be doing an Evil/Unlawful act >.>

[Optimystik]

@Optimystik: You have a point...I tend to forget about ubiquitous healing in the standard Dnd... (also, completely unrelated, I have to say your newer Avatar is very cool, but I always smiled when I saw the Tyki Mikk AV :P)


I might change it back in July, when the new issues of the DGM manga are published :smalltongue:

In the meantime, please let me plug my artist: the incredibly talented neoseph7, who has even created avatars for our moderator Roland. He no doubt appreciates your interest. :smallsmile:


I'd like to remind everyone of rule 588 of Mr Welch's list.

588. Paladins are immune to STDs, but if I take advantage of this ability, I lose it. Wonderful paradox, isn't it?

What if said paladin falls in love with and marries someone with an STD, and wants to have a child? I'd say the immunity becomes a factor there, as well as their ability to remove disease.

It could even create an interesting RP moment if their ability to cure it could not work on the spouse, but if used quickly enough and in the right circumstances, could keep the child healthy.

[KillianHawkeye]

Killian.
I never said its universally bad. Not once. I said that it should default to "don't make people roll/assign pregnancy."

You never used the word "universal," but you are clearly saying "by default, we should assume that it is bad." All I am saying is that there IS no default. Not everyone believes in being politically correct during a game.

P.S. I am mostly playing the devil's advocate, here. But it really annoys me when people take their personal preferences and apply them to everyone like Yuki was doing.

[Susano-wo]

I'm saying by default, it shouldn't be done--it can be a very taboo subject (see some of the GM horror stories on this very forum), and to up and roll a percentile after someone has sex and say "she's pregnant/not pregnant" is a recipe for bad feelings.

so I think you should default the rolling for pregnancy field to "no." IF people want to do otherwise, great. I got's no problem with it, myself, if people want that level of consequences to be in their game. I just think it should be talked about before hand, and if its sprung on people, they have a right to be miffed. ^ ^

Though I do take a bit of umbrage with the use of "Politically Correct." Its not "PC" to make sure everyone's ok with the level of sex (or for that matter violence/emotional distress/etc) in a game before raising the level to X--its making sure no one is blindsided.

And, yes, NeoSeph7's AV's are quite amazing :P

[Il_Vec]

I did not read all the thread, but I'd say that if you are the guy who rolls for hurricane chance, rolls for random encounters and rolls for bluff checks, then you should roll for pregnancy. Just be aware that the chances are low. Like, REAL low. "Two ones on d100" low.

If you do not roll for all of the above, then you should treat the matter as plot driven.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, Susano, I can see I'm not going to change your mind.

However, I have a side question for you: would you be against a DM arbitrarily deciding that a female PC becomes pregnant as a result of her nighttime escapades purely for reasons of plot (i.e. with no random chance involved, but still without input from the player).

I'm just saying, sometimes things happen to characters that are outside the player's control, and pregnancy is generally one of those things if steps aren't taken to reduce the likelihood.

[Susano-wo]

with no input? yes. if already discussed, than no, its no problem. (either specifically that instance or with a random effect in place--I'm ok with 'fudging', and just the knowledge that it might happen would be enough.)

Agreed on the changing of minds. Last couple of posts I was no so much trying to change your mind as making sure you understood me, since it seemed that you did not. ( I kinda have a thing about understandings, even if neither side will actually change their opinion)

I have a question for you that is...less "side". Do you see what I am saying regarding how touchy the subject can be when related to a character? I know characters aren't player avatars, but some people really get into them (I know I do when I really like 'em) I know you still think that there should be no defaults, but do you see where I am coming from on that?

[KillianHawkeye]

On the contrary, I completely understand where you're coming from. I even stated so earlier in the thread. My ONLY opposition has been to the stance that certain people's personal preferences on the matter should be applied across the board. My original comments weren't even directed at you specifically, you simply carried the torch after Yuki left the thread.


Anyway, here's where you lose me. You're saying that the DM shouldn't have the power to apply a status condition called "pregnancy," even if the character in question is engaging in activities that include a high risk of becoming pregnant? Just because they didn't have some kind of conversation about whether or not pregnancy was okay to happen in a game (despite the fact that sex is apparently okay to have)? Maybe I'll protest the next time I'm hit by a level-draining attack, since my DM and I didn't have a specific conversation okaying level drains being applied to my character.

I seriously just don't understand how pregnancy or STDs can be considered off-limits in a game that already includes sex. That completely breaks the immersion factor for me. If people just want sex with no consequences they can look at porn on their own time. If sex is gonna be part of the game there ought to be potential consequences* for the characters involved just like anything else. Otherwise, it just doesn't mean anything and ends up being a total waste of time.

*Disclaimer: Consequences including but not limited to pregnancy, poison, disease, marriage, assassins, blackmail, forced imprisonment, exile, and castration. No refunds.

[Susano-wo]

My original comments weren't even directed at you specifically, you simply carried the torch after Yuki left the thread.
Which is ironic, really, since my original post posited that she should calm down. >.> (incidentally, I apologize if I offended you, Yuki, assuming you are even reading the thread...)

Anyway, I don't see there really being any comparison between getting level drained (or damaged by a spell, or falling, etc) and things likely to elicit emotional reaction. (And hey, maybe I am wrong about the likelihood, but in my experience[theoretical--no one has actually rolled for pregnancy in any games I have been in] it can be a hot-button of sorts)

Not to mention, level draining is in the rules, being preggers isn't.



I seriously just don't understand how pregnancy or STDs can be considered off-limits in a game that already includes sex. That completely breaks the immersion factor for me. If people just want sex with no consequences they can look at porn on their own time. If sex is gonna be part of the game there ought to be potential consequences* for the characters involved just like anything else. Otherwise, it just doesn't mean anything and ends up being a total waste of time.

Sounds very reasonable. But a lot of people might just want to have sex be a thing that can happen without the risk of getting pregnant/getting someone pregnant. There can be other, quite potent consequences (broken hearts for one thing) to sex (which you are evidently aware of, given your humorous disclaimer). Pregnancy is one that leads to all sorts of other questions (keeping or not keeping, miscarriage chance, inability to participate after a certain period of time, etc), which might lead to frustration, as well as feeling punished for having sex and, again, uncomfortableness.

But, hey, I think we may be retreading again. Feel free to respond more, and I'll take a look, but I think I'm comfortable with leaving it here if you are (oh, and thanks for being civil :P)

[Ubercaledor]

Not to mention, level draining is in the rules, being preggers isn't.



I see your point, regarding any homebrew rules there should be some indication to the player prior to rolling, even if it's simply the ubiquitous
DM: "You want to bed that obviously diseased woman that, incidentally also looks quite fertile?"
PC: "Damn right!"
DM: "Are you sure?"

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

i am a female player. . . i had a character be made pregnant WITHOUT EVER HAVING DONE THE DEED. the Dm just decided it would be a good plot device.

yeah. . . i found it horribly annoying that my nimbly stealthy factotum rogue was suddenly burdened by a SUPERNATURAL PREGNANCY without my consent . . . . i had penalties! PENALTIES

[Knaight]

A good plot device? Sure, its been in every mythology ever (not touching the religions it is also in), but those tend to not have, I dunno, parties and adventurers in the background.

[Scarey Nerd]

i am a female player. . . i had a character be made pregnant WITHOUT EVER HAVING DONE THE DEED. the Dm just decided it would be a good plot device.

yeah. . . i found it horribly annoying that my nimbly stealthy factotum rogue was suddenly burdened by a SUPERNATURAL PREGNANCY without my consent . . . . i had penalties! PENALTIES

Yeesh, that's harsh. Really I would say that the DM in that case was acting way out of line. Yes, the point of this thread is that pregnancy is possible, but only when you actually have sex with someone.

[SethFahad]

Consider these 2 feats

Improved and Greater Diaper changing.

[Mr.Moron]

Consider these 2 feats

Improved and Greater Diaper changing.

Without them the baby spontaneously combusts.

[Sindri]

I personally think that pregnancy should be rolled for. If you look at real-world biology, it's pretty random. There would be modifiers for circumstances, protection, time of month, Con scores of those involved, etc. but any game with sex should, realistically, have a random (small) chance of pregnancy; If the GM wants to make it a plot device, or prevent it due to awkwardness, look at rule zero.

I'd estimate the chances to be around 30% under ideal circumstances, and as low as .01% with sufficient safeguards, but it would always be there. Of course rules for abortion/miscarriage would probably come in at some point...

As for STDs, the GM should determine whether there is a risk (simply deciding no in most cases, probably a random chance in brothels) and then it should be handled like any other disease.



On a somewhat related note, the explanation that I got for why elves don't overpopulate the planet if given infinite lifespans:
Elven women are extremely thin. Elven children are pretty much normal size. Thus, no elven woman is willing to go though that more than once. This, combined with the disproportionately high fraction of elves that become adventurers and the frequency with which elven nations find themselves at war, has led to the population typically holding about steady.

[Gorilla2038]

It is said that in the middle ages, people believed certain herbs could prevent pregnancy. I suppose in D&D they do.

Just to bring this up: Tansy. Five hundred years and going strong.

Also, Ive been in two groups where the characters had this type of situation.

One was a druid who had twins. Things were good, except she almost had kids in bear form. DM ruled that at half health she had to make saves into labor, didn't, bing bada boom, Babies! Only reason they didnt die was our cleric had maxed out heal and full spells, he spent the night(10 checks) Blessed dice didn't roll below an 18, even after the dm made him switch dice twice.

The second was a Paladin who slept with a girl during a party(i, as a Dm, just didnt think bahamut would CARE). Ends up, its a set-up, and he gets hitched to the Genghis Khan's(ala the reawakening hero legend) great^13 grand daughter. She died before coming to term. Twas very tragic.

That being said, it should drive the plot in most situations. If its a random encounter(hehe puns), then by all means roll some dice. Call it a 10% chance, or something fairly low, roll them and let some humorous fun happen. Same should happen with male characters IMO.

Things to consider: How does spell casting affect babies? How can you help the player have difficult but not over the top problems? The key is to make them role play, and not deal to much with mechanics, and have the potential baby effect there character. After all, the mother who adventures 7 months pregnant is much different than the one who walls herself up.

[Escheton]

i am a female player. . . i had a character be made pregnant WITHOUT EVER HAVING DONE THE DEED. the Dm just decided it would be a good plot device.

yeah. . . i found it horribly annoying that my nimbly stealthy factotum rogue was suddenly burdened by a SUPERNATURAL PREGNANCY without my consent . . . . i had penalties! PENALTIES

Yeah, but afterwards you have a jesus baby that might count as an improved familiar...

[Il_Vec]

Yeah, but afterwards you have a jesus baby that might count as an improved familiar...

Or an Unholy Scion. Go check it out on Heroes of Horror.

[BenInHB]

The fact that they are made (VERY selectively) and not born, most likely. Same goes for Warforged. Looks like someone at Wizards actually thought this one through :smalltongue:.

Though if a race of people that can potentially have 20+ kids per couple had an infinite lifespan, yeah, that would be a problem without some way to cull the herd.

Enter Rajaat and a team of ethnic cleansing adventurers

[Volthawk]

Or an Unholy Scion. Go check it out on Heroes of Horror.

That thing is freaking weird...

[hamishspence]

True- but with a few adjustments, it can be used to represent characters like Jupiter from the Robin Jarvis Deptford Mice books- a cat whose father is implied to be a fiend in cat form.

Half-fiend won't do it (since it can't be added to animals) but Unholy scion can- since it's like half-fiend but can be added to animals, as well as being almost indistinguishable from a normal creature.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Yeah, but afterwards you have a jesus baby that might count as an improved familiar...

Actaully rather than having a jesus baby I somehow had the unholy offspring of lolth and an elf. . . she didnt' feel like going through labor so my character was turned into her surrogate. . . .

MY BABY HAD FANGS AND POISON

[Kris Strife]

Actaully rather than having a jesus baby I somehow had the unholy offspring of lolth and an elf. . . she didnt' feel like going through labor so my character was turned into her surrogate. . . .

MY BABY HAD FANGS AND POISON

How did the other players feel about the whole thing?

[LibraryOgre]

This is a bit of a joke question, but has serious implications:

What happens if a female PC engages in... relations, with a male NPC? Do you roll a d% for chance of pregnancy?

Would be kind of a gamestopper :smalleek:

Depends a lot on the game. In the case of D&D, probably not; most groups aren't really well suited for this, and unless the player is looking to retire the character, it's going to be an annoyance to them.

In a more generational game (like Ars Magica), I'd probably go with "dramatically appropriate" rather than die rolls. If your Companions are trying to get pregnant, then it's likely to happen at some point... the question becomes how the rest of your group is trying to help them.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

How did the other players feel about the whole thing?

Everyone felt like i was the center of attention. . . I felt like i was totally cheated of my character concept. all in all it was a very frustrating situation. the game died soon after

[Susano-wo]

Everyone felt like i was the center of attention. . . I felt like i was totally cheated of my character concept. all in all it was a very frustrating situation. the game died soon after

I've been on facebook too much--I wanted to "like" your post...I guess the convention her would just be:
"+1"
:smallbiggrin:

[Dairun Cates]

MY BABY HAD FANGS AND POISON

It came out as a two year-old?? DAMN!

But yeah. Player fun tends to override logic, but if your players are up for that sort of thing, they're up for that sort of thing. Know your players, go with the flow.

So, the answer is, depends on the group.


Slightly on topic, I actually had a pirate character once who was a little too "active" in his youth and had fairly large number of illegitimate offspring. Basically, he used to be egotistical and only think of himself before he realized that being powerful meant he should fix the world instead of meaning that the world owed him. The start of the campaign had him characterized as an older man having to deal with the consequences of his actions, balancing his past with saving the world, all while actually having someone he was genuinely in love with and trying not to let his horrible philandering past destroy his chance at true happiness.

Most of the party somehow got it in their heads after the GM made a joke about alimony payments, and I had to dodge it with a super high bureaucracy check in order to keep the session going, that my character was clearly the biggest scumbag in the universe...

I'd like to note that this is in a party that UNIRONICALLY had a character that wanted to institute ethnic cleansing to the point that they could not be in the same room as a member of said race without going into a violent rage. Said player still insists that we were making a big deal out of it.

It also had a character that claimed to be a champion of justice and good but frequently broke VERY basic port laws and the orders of the person that offered to give them passage because they couldn't kill him. Essentially, we had two players that insisted that the only way the campaign wasn't going their way was going to be to physically kill their characters ourselves. The campaign didn't last very long.

So yeah. All things considered, apparently pregnancy IS the worst status effect you can inflict on someone even if its only in character creation. Just shows you how much of a feather touch you should use, I guess.

...And yes, it was in Exalted.

[Gnaeus]

I was in a Werewolf larp once where the DM decided that the Black Spiral pack had build a caern defended with rings that produced emotions akin to the 7 deadly sins.

So a small group of us reach Lust. The group leader (a Black Fury) fails her resistance check. My character, a male kinfolk, didn't fail his check, but had some relevant flaws on his character sheet and couldn't have stopped her anyway. A couple of other characters came across us a few minutes later, but decided that it wasn't against the litany and "maybe she was in heat". (They did later break up some werewolf-werewolf couplings, for litany reasons).

The Black Fury player was outraged. When the DM suggested the possibility of conception as a result of her Mind-Control-Rape, she threatened him with bodily harm. It did generate a lot of very intense RP, between our characters and between her character and her packmates who let it happen. But at the time it was a very bad thing out of character, and it should not have happened.

[KillianHawkeye]

Not to mention, level draining is in the rules, being preggers isn't.

I'm sure there are rules for it somewhere, if you have the right book. Or some might say, the wrong book. Anybody want to admit to owning the Book of Erotic Fantasy so we can settle this debate??


So, the answer is, depends on the group.

That's what I've been saying!

---====---


I was in a Werewolf larp once where the DM decided that the Black Spiral pack had build a caern defended with rings that produced emotions akin to the 7 deadly sins.

So a small group of us reach Lust. The group leader (a Black Fury) fails her resistance check. My character, a male kinfolk, didn't fail his check, but had some relevant flaws on his character sheet and couldn't have stopped her anyway. A couple of other characters came across us a few minutes later, but decided that it wasn't against the litany and "maybe she was in heat". (They did later break up some werewolf-werewolf couplings, for litany reasons).

The Black Fury player was outraged. When the DM suggested the possibility of conception as a result of her Mind-Control-Rape, she threatened him with bodily harm. It did generate a lot of very intense RP, between our characters and between her character and her packmates who let it happen. But at the time it was a very bad thing out of character, and it should not have happened.

Eh... if you're playing World of Darkness, you should be prepared for Bad Things to happen to your character. Bad Things always happen there.

[Gnaeus]

Anybody want to admit to owning the Book of Erotic Fantasy so we can settle this debate??

I own BoEF. What rule exactly do you need?


Eh... if you're playing World of Darkness, you should be prepared for Bad Things to happen to your character. Bad Things always happen there.

Are you actually suggesting that anyone playing a WoD game needs to be ready to have their character raped?

[KillianHawkeye]

I own BoEF. What rule exactly do you need?

Is there anything about randomly determining fertility or pregnancy?


Are you actually suggesting that anyone playing a WoD game needs to be ready to have their character raped?

Well, maybe I shouldn't go that far. They really should have been allowed to spend Willpower to stop themselves.

Anyway, Really Bad Things should be reserved for when you botch your roll. Stuff like that can happen. Would they have felt differently if they'd been Dominated by a powerful vampire and the same thing happened?

[Kris Strife]

Everyone felt like i was the center of attention. . . I felt like i was totally cheated of my character concept. all in all it was a very frustrating situation. the game died soon after

I think you should have each picked up your PHB and over thrown the DM. Remember, Players usually outnumber them about 4:1 :smallbiggrin:

[Gnaeus]

Is there anything about randomly determining fertility or pregnancy?

There is one table listing basic fertility rates by race, ranging from 5% (elves, Storm Giants) to 20% (Humans) to 100% (Fiends, Celestials, some fey). There is another table that states which races are fertile with each other.


Well, maybe I shouldn't go that far. They really should have been allowed to spend Willpower to stop themselves.

In the larp at the time, willpower was just a retest. That means 1 more round of rock paper scissors. The DM just had her number that day.


Anyway, Really Bad Things should be reserved for when you botch your roll. Stuff like that can happen. Would they have felt differently if they'd been Dominated by a powerful vampire and the same thing happened?

I haven't done that as a vampire. But when my Cultist of Ecstasy was doing it (usually either for ritual magic or to regain willpower), my practice was to talk to the player OOC, tell them my character's intentions, and ask them if they were OK with that result if that was what the rules came up with. If they said no, my pervy character went elsewhere. Most people were OK with whatever the rules allowed. The degree of detail in the scene was based on both of our comfort levels.

[dps]

I'm glad you're smart. I'm not sure how relevant modern pharmacognosy and and contraceptives are relevant for characters in a (supposedly) medieval fantasy setting, though.

It's not really known how long condoms have been in use, but they've been around for over 400 years at least. Before modern plastics and the like, they were often made out of animal intestines.

[KillianHawkeye]

In the larp at the time, willpower was just a retest. That means 1 more round of rock paper scissors. The DM just had her number that day.

Ah, okay. Sorry, I'm not a LARP guy. That seems like a really strange thing to LARP, though.... :smalleek:

[Susano-wo]

In the larp at the time, willpower was just a retest. That means 1 more round of rock paper scissors. The DM just had her number that day.


I'm guessing you didn't RP that particular scene, then...:smalleek:


Edit: As, they say,...swordsaged :/

OH and hardy har har, Killian :smallannoyed:

[KillianHawkeye]

OH and hardy har har, Killian :smallannoyed:

:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

OKAY! Straight from the BoEF!

Pregnancy check: Roll once for each month in which a character has sex. Some GM's may choose to roll once per encounter, in this case use 10% of the given chance.
There is a chart based on race: (it has ALOT so i'm just gonna list the basic races.)
Human: 20%
Elf: 5%
Halfling: 20%
Dwarf: 10%
Orc: 40%
Gnome: 15%

[Susano-wo]

Is there a smiley for wincing while massaging the bridge of your nose? 'cause I need that one ; ;

[okpokalypse]

Originally Posted by Maerok
Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

Good question. Depends on the world, I guess.

Well, from D&D Literature of the past, Elves (as the example) have menstruation and gestation cycles about 10x - 15x that of a human. Which basically means a female elf is fertile for about 7 days a year, and would carry a child for... About 8-10 years.

Enjoy that.

[okpokalypse]

Protip: certain herbs do prevent pregnancy. Where exactly do you think birth control pills came from? Magic?

You're referencing Tansy, which was used in the middle ages to induce abortions - but it didn't prevent pregnancy. The only known herb that even marginally reduces the chance for contraception is Wild Carrot (daucus carota). And it's effectiveness is very mild.

Birth Control Pills, as a previous post stated, are synthetic hormones. There is almost nothing "natural" about it.

[Il_Vec]

Some GM's may choose to roll once per encounter, in this case use 10% of the given chance.
Human: 20%

That is waaaaaaay too high.

[KillianHawkeye]

That is waaaaaaay too high.

2% is too high?

[okpokalypse]

On a somewhat related note, the explanation that I got for why elves don't overpopulate the planet if given infinite lifespans:
Elven women are extremely thin. Elven children are pretty much normal size. Thus, no elven woman is willing to go though that more than once. This, combined with the disproportionately high fraction of elves that become adventurers and the frequency with which elven nations find themselves at war, has led to the population typically holding about steady.

Actually, if you conisdered it that way, the race would die out. With only 1 child being born per female, the race keeps naturally halving. A Race needs to breed at least 2 per just to keep steady.

When you DO factor in the high % of adventurers, there's more attrition since many of them are dying off. For every Elven Female that dies off before having two children, the race decreases with each Elven women normally having 2.

Realistically, you'd need 3 per female to keep the race going strong. We're just in times today where infant mortality is very low (in the US) and the life expectency has grown to the point that we're over-populating due to Lack of Attrition.

[okpokalypse]

That is waaaaaaay too high.

Out of 28 Days, women are highly fertile 4 days (>50% on Average). They are non-fertile for 8 days (> .01%) and have a very low risk of impregnation during the other 16 (Generally below 10% on the whole).

Generally, that's about 15% over the entire course of a cycle, without knowing what portion of the cycle the woman is in.

[Xyk]

Well what keeps the Elan from overpopulating the world?

An ongoing genocide?

[Il_Vec]

2% is too high?

Hmmm...It turns out after a research on the subject that doctors will say 3 to 5% chance per "encounter". So I am the wrong one here.

[Ubercaledor]

On the topic of Tansy, and steering clear of the subject of abortion and ethics thereof,

Here's a question:

Raise Dead/Ressurection spells-
In utero, would a foetus be ressurected if the target of such a spell, or if a pregnant woman was to die and be raised, would the child also come back to life?

[Scarey Nerd]

On the topic of Tansy, and steering clear of the subject of abortion and ethics thereof,

Here's a question:

Raise Dead/Ressurection spells-
In utero, would a foetus be ressurected if the target of such a spell, or if a pregnant woman was to die and be raised, would the child also come back to life?

Surely the spell would bring back only the mother, if she was the target, as although the foetus is growing off the mother in a sense, it is a seperate entity. The same idea would apply if conjoined twins were slain, and one was ressurected.

If the foetus were to be the target of such a spell, then it would depened really on the DMs idea of at what point life begins (Conception, when a brain grows, birth, whatever)

All of those are horrible scenarios, so lets not dwell...