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Scipio
2010-06-27, 01:09 PM
My question about this got lost in the touch spell discussion, so I am asking it here.

Monk Entry in SRD

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

If a non-monk takes IUS as a feat. Is their unarmed strike considered manufactured, natural or both?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 01:13 PM
The convenience of manufactured or natural is a monk feature. Non-monks don't get it.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-27, 01:19 PM
My question about this got lost in the touch spell discussion, so I am asking it here.

Monk Entry in SRD


If a non-monk takes IUS as a feat. Is their unarmed strike considered manufactured, natural or both?

Interestingly enough, neither. An normal unarmed strike is never explicitly defined as a natural weapon, as far as I know.

Inherent to the standard definition of a Natural Weapon is that the creature making one is considered armed, and doesn't provoke AoOs from using it. This means that an Unarmed Strike can't be a natural weapon since it violates the definition of a natural weapon and isn't given special exception anywhere that allows it to be a "Natural weapon except...".

Similarly it fails to meet fit the definition of a Manufactured weapon. Improved Unarmed Strike (the feat) changes neither of these things.

So with or without Improved Unarmed Strike a nonmonk Unarmed Strike is neither a Manufactured or Natural Weapon. Unless I'm missing something where an Unarmed Strike is explicitly defined as Natural. Heck, Unarmed Strike is listed separately from natural weapons on the list of things you can do in a grapple.


EDIT: Of course, that's all just silly RAW. You're better off ignoring and just treating it like any other weapon. Honestly even requiring IUS is kind of mean, Unarmed Fighting is wimpy enough as is.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 01:23 PM
Yet, oddly enough, Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) affects unarmed strikes. I think a better way to define unarmed strikes is "Natural attack that is not armed"

Greenish
2010-06-27, 01:36 PM
If a non-monk takes IUS as a feat. Is their unarmed strike considered manufactured, natural or both?Natural. The rules concerning unarmed strikes are a mess, but basically they're treated as natural weapons for the spells that affect them, and (mostly) like manufactured weapons for combat purposes.

So, a Magic Fang, as has been pointed out, affects them, but an Align Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) doesn't. However, you can make iterative attacks with them, but you can't use them as secondary attacks when making full attacks with other weapons.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 01:37 PM
Natural. The rules concerning unarmed strikes are a mess, but basically they're treated as natural weapons for the spells that affect them, and (mostly) like manufactured weapons for combat purposes.

So, a Magic Fang, as has been pointed out, affects them, but an Align Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alignWeapon.htm) doesn't. However, you can make iterative attacks with them, but you can't use them as secondary attacks when making full attacks with other weapons.

You can also perform TWF with any weapon and unarmed strike, like a longspear + unarmed strike, or unarmed strike + scimitar.

Greenish
2010-06-27, 01:43 PM
You can also perform TWF with any weapon and unarmed strike, like a longspear + unarmed strike, or unarmed strike + scimitar.Right-o, you can TWF, but you can't just get an extra attack at full BAB -5 on top of your full attack like you could with a standard natural weapon.

Scipio
2010-06-27, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback. The rules are certainly a mess in this area.

Here is a follow up question.

From the Vampire SRD entry:

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

If a vampire has IUS with no monk levels, can he energy drain with an unarmed strike?

Mr.Moron
2010-06-27, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the feedback. The rules are certainly a mess in this area.

Here is a follow up question.

From the Vampire SRD entry:


If a vampire has IUS with no monk levels, can he energy drain with an unarmed strike?

If you're the DM it can do whatever you want. Including drain energy with a rubber-chicken slap.
If you're a player, ask your DM.

Scipio
2010-06-27, 02:04 PM
If you're the DM it can do whatever you want. Including drain energy with a rubber-chicken slap.
If you're a player, ask your DM.

I am the DM. I realize I can rule how I want, but I wanted a consensus from the forum on a poorly worded description of unarmed strikes.

Greenish
2010-06-27, 02:08 PM
I am the DM. I realize I can rule how I want, but I wanted a consensus from the forum on a poorly worded description of unarmed strikes.There's no consensus. Before you allow it, remember that you get iterative attacks with Unarmed Strikes, which you can TWF with* and even combine with natural weapons (such as vampire's slam). That can add negative levels fast.


*Maybe.