PDA

View Full Version : Dragons of Eberron



Khellendross
2010-06-27, 03:02 PM
Okay so I'm reading the book and on page 73 there is a Male great wyrm Silver dragon monk 1/Hidecarved Dragon 9 that is CR30. Seems like a pretty powerful combatant.

Under his attack options it lists this.
Melee bite +58/58 (4d8+23) with flurry of blows and
2 claws +56 each (4d6+14) and
2 wings +56 each (2d8+14) and
tail slap +56 (4d6+32)


My rm seems to think this isn't allowed but I don't see a problem with it. The SRD say this about flurry of blows


Flurry of Blows (Ex)When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

I guess you could rule the bite isn't a monk weapons but it does say the monk weapon is interchangeable and a monks unarmed attacks are considered natural attacks so is it really breaking the rules as written that you couldn't use your bite since it's your primary natural attack with flurry of blows.

I think what they did was legit because of this line
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. It doesn't say unarmed strikes with a hyperlink to unarmed attack but just unarmed strikes which could very well be read as unarmed attacks which a bite is.

Whats your opinion?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-27, 03:09 PM
It should get a full attack routine of Unarmed Strike -2/Unarmed Strike -2/Bite -7/Claw -7/Claw -7/Wing -7/Wing -7/Tail Slap -7.

If it has Multiattack, those are all at -5 rather than -7. If it has Improved Multiattack, they're all at -2.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-27, 03:22 PM
It should get a full attack routine of Unarmed Strike -2/Unarmed Strike -2/Bite -7/Claw -7/Claw -7/Wing -7/Wing -7/Tail Slap -7.

If it has Multiattack, those are all at -5 rather than -7. If it has Improved Multiattack, they're all at -2.Multiattack takes the -5 and turns it into -2, meaning you'd be at -4, rather than -7.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 03:28 PM
Natural Weapons are not part of the monk's list of flurry weapons. You can flurry with unarmed strike (yes, the dragon would PUNCH with his claws). Can you TWF natural weapons? If so, you can do a flurry + natural attacks.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-27, 03:37 PM
Natural Weapons are not part of the monk's list of flurry weapons. You can flurry with unarmed strike (yes, the dragon would PUNCH with his claws). Can you TWF natural weapons? If so, you can do a flurry + natural attacks.

You can't TWF natural attacks, but they are added to the end of any full-attack routine.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 03:39 PM
You can't TWF natural attacks, but they are added to the end of any full-attack routine.

I don't see that on the natural weapons entry. Where is that?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-27, 03:52 PM
...it doesn't need to be. When you make a full-attack, you attack with all your weapons.




If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.


Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.


Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 03:57 PM
So they're normally added as a multiweapon attack.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-27, 04:00 PM
So they're normally added as a multiweapon attack.

...nooo, Multiweapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) is fighting with three or more weapons (like a Xill or a Thri-Kreen multiwielding daggers or some thing). Multiattack is for natural attacks.

If you make a full attack, you make your full attack with your manufactured weapons first, then add any natural attacks onto the end of your attack routine at BAB-5 (BAB-2 with Multiattack, BAB-0 with Improved Multiattack). If the natural attack's made by a part of the body that is taken up by a weapon (say, wielding a longsword in a hand with claws on it), you forgo that attack.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 04:03 PM
...nooo, Multiweapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) is fighting with three or more weapons (like a Xill or a Thri-Kreen multiwielding daggers or some thing). Multiattack is for natural attacks.

Right, multiattack, sorry.

Khellendross
2010-06-27, 04:06 PM
So basically I'm reading you can? Since monk attacks are interchangeable according to raw you could sub it. Nothing says you can't sub it for a bite attack instead and that becomes your primary attack and since it's your primary attack it's considered a manufactured weapon by monk rules. Therefor bite/bite(flurry) and the rest of the secondary natural attacks is a viable way to use monk.

That's really cool. Now you just need to figure out a way to get furry of blows on a swordsage so the dragon could have light armor and get his wis to ac and get the extra attacks on his bite.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-27, 04:10 PM
So basically I'm reading you can? Since monk attacks are interchangeable according to raw you could sub it. Nothing says you can't sub it for a bite attack instead and that becomes your primary attack and since it's your primary attack it's considered a manufactured weapon by monk rules. Therefor bite/bite(flurry) and the rest of the secondary natural attacks is a viable way to use monk.

That's really cool. Now you just need to figure out a way to get furry of blows on a swordsage so the dragon could have light armor and get his wis to ac and get the extra attacks on his bite.

Hm, they're interchangeable with themselves. If you want to do a primary attack then a bite attack, that's just normal weaving of attacks, where monk levels have no relevance on whether that is allowed or not.

Khellendross
2010-06-27, 04:28 PM
Well it seems you could do it that way but if there is still any doubt just get that metal jaw thing out of the draconmicon or savage species so that the bite is a "weapon".

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-27, 04:35 PM
Well it seems you could do it that way but if there is still any doubt just get that metal jaw thing out of the draconmicon or savage species so that the bite is a "weapon".It'd have to be a ki weapon.