[3.5] lowest lvl wizard to beat lvl 20 monk

[Choco]

We all know wizards are uber and monks are useless, but just for laughs, what is the lowest possible level that a wizard can be to still be able to beat a lvl 20 monk, and how would he do it? Also, how might the monk defend against whatever the wizard did? All books allowed of course.

[Critical]

A fat wizard could use his raven familiar to benign transposition above the monk to cause no-save 20d6 damage, 70 damage average, assuming the monk doesn't have decent con, it should be enough on a lucky roll.

[term1nally s1ck]

High, actually. WBL is powerful.

I would suspect you need 17+, or the difference in items available would be too much.

[Morph Bark]

Going out on a random limb, I'll say Wizards can probably do it with 4th-level and lower spells. Maybe with one 5th-level thrown in. If they plan carefully and act strategically, that is. So 9th-level.

Are we assuming a VoP Monk here?

[PId6]

Surprisingly, lvl 20 monk is actually harder to beat for a wizard than lvl 20 fighter. Not true in pretty much any other case, but high saves and minor SR as well as random abilities tend to be better than bonus feats in PvP vs wizard.

It depends on how much abuse are allowed. Simulacrum and Planar Binding abuse means that wizard 13 can possibly do it, but not if you allow Candles of Invocation or UMD on monk.

Edit: If the monk is VoP, it becomes infinitely easier.

[Lin Bayaseda]

The monk can take Leadership and, assuming high enough charisma, get a cohort who is a Wizard level 17.

Therefore, to beat them, the enemy wizard has to be at least level 18.

[Arakune]

High, actually. WBL is powerful.

I would suspect you need 17+, or the difference in items available would be too much.

I believe he is talking about a "monk being played as a monk", and anything that could make him emulate a wizard (heavy abuse of WBL and items) isn't a real monk for this challenge.

Or not, in that case you're correct.

[Choco]

Assume whatever you want for the monk or the wizard.

My plan is to have basically what has already started, with people basically going "with<x> and <y> conditions a lvl <z> wizard can beat the monk" and then get a response of "but then the monk could do <a> to counter the wizard", etc. Basically a discussion that at the end of hopefully we will have a fool-proof way a wizard of the lowest level possible can beat a monk.

[Jokasti]

Level one, while the monk is sickly and asleep.

[Incan Road]

I would say that the Wizard would need to have 8th to 9th lvl. spells. If the monk is built to be powerful it will have great saves and a wicked full attack. The monk can move quickly so it just needs to get to the wizard before he can attack, assuming initiative is rolled he can do that quite easily. Then again the wizard does have magic so I think the only way to determine it would be to know the battle aesthetics i.e. battle area, and its dimensions also if items are allowed, more so if they can be abused.

[Morph Bark]

Level one, while the monk is sickly and asleep.

The Monk would still have SR and still get saves. Coup de grace would increase the damage of your spells, but at most you got a 2nd-level spell dealing twice maximum damage with no save and no SR allowed. Which would wake him up.

[Jokasti]

Take an ax to the neck. Ain't nobody waking up from that.

[balistafreak]

Take an ax to the neck. Ain't nobody waking up from that.

This is D&D. You'd be surprised. :smallwink:

[Incan Road]

Level one, while the monk is sickly and asleep.

Level 20 monk is an outsider that does not require sleep.

[PId6]

The Monk would still have SR and still get saves. Coup de grace would increase the damage of your spells, but at most you got a 2nd-level spell dealing twice maximum damage with no save and no SR allowed. Which would wake him up.
Max out your Str and use a Scythe, nonproficiency be damned. (2d4+1.5*Str)x4 leads to some ridiculously high Fort saves. A level 1 orc wizard with 28 Str (18 base + 4 racial + 6 Fist of Stone) can deal on average 72 damage this way. I'm willing to bet that the monk isn't surviving a DC 82 save-or-die more than 5% of the time.

[Mystic Muse]

Level 20 monk is an outsider that does not require sleep.

Doesn't mean he won't go to sleep anymore.

[Rothen]

Too many variables due to WBL.

An average monk? Not so high, level 10 and up could do it.

A monk specifically geared to surviving and beating a wizard build? Level 17 and up.

Edit: Wait...This is going to be one of those threads, isn't it?

[shadow_archmagi]

unfortunately, as noted above, the monk doesn't need to sleep

[Kylarra]

Schrodinger's blah vs Schrodinger's blah is a very boring game, but heck, a first level wizard can summon pazuzu and we can start the fun games from there. :smallamused:

[vegetalss4]

nah, the monk would hear the wizard sneaking up on him.
23 ranks of listen + say 3 wis bonus -10 for being asleep = d20 +16 for monk
2 ranks wizard +2 cat familiar = d20 +4
so all in all: 7% change the monk don't wake up.

^@ well yeah, but so can a level 20 monk, so if we go that route they are excatly equal.

[PId6]

Arcane Thesis (Ray of Stupidity)
Split Ray
Twin Spell
Empower Spell
Sudden Maximize
Practical Metamagic (Split Ray)
Practical Metamagic (Win Spell)
Practical Metamagic (Empower Spell)
Lesser Rod of Quicken
Lesser Rod of Maximize
Invisible Spell
Cooperative Spell

Split (+0) Twinned (+2) Empowered (+0) Maximized (Rod) Invisible (-1) Cooperative (-1) Ray of Stupidity in a 2nd level slot, followed by Quickened (Rod) Split (+0) Twinned (+2) Empowered (+0) Maximized (Sudden) Invisible (-1) Cooperative (-1) Ray of Stupidity in a 2nd level slot.

This equals 54 Int damage on average in a single round. You can replace the Quickened Ray of Stupidity with a Quickened True Strike if you're afraid the monk has a high touch AC. 27 Int damage should be more than enough to drop the monk into a coma.

Yes, WBL can counter this, but it takes specific foreknowledge of the tactic in order to do so. The same can be said of many other wizard tactics that likewise need specific counters.

[Critical]

A fat wizard could use his raven familiar to benign transposition above the monk to cause no-save 20d6 damage, 70 damage average, assuming the monk doesn't have decent con, it should be enough on a lucky roll.
Note: this could be done at level 1. :smallbiggrin:

[Bibliomancer]

Note: this could be done at level 1. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but does mutual annihilation result in a victory for the wizard? A level 1 wizard could not survive that much damage, and the monk could move out of the way.

[molten_dragon]

Arcane Thesis (Ray of Stupidity)
Split Ray
Twin Spell
Empower Spell
Sudden Maximize
Practical Metamagic (Split Ray)
Practical Metamagic (Win Spell)
Practical Metamagic (Empower Spell)
Lesser Rod of Quicken
Lesser Rod of Maximize
Invisible Spell
Cooperative Spell

Split (+0) Twinned (+2) Empowered (+0) Maximized (Rod) Invisible (-1) Cooperative (-1) Ray of Stupidity in a 2nd level slot, followed by Quickened (Rod) Split (+0) Twinned (+2) Empowered (+0) Maximized (Sudden) Invisible (-1) Cooperative (-1) Ray of Stupidity in a 2nd level slot.

This equals 54 Int damage on average in a single round. You can replace the Quickened Ray of Stupidity with a Quickened True Strike if you're afraid the monk has a high touch AC. 27 Int damage should be more than enough to drop the monk into a coma.

Yes, WBL can counter this, but it takes specific foreknowledge of the tactic in order to do so. The same can be said of many other wizard tactics that likewise need specific counters.

There's a couple things wrong with this. First off, although it uses up only a 2nd level slot, a human wizard doesn't have enough feats to pull it off until 15th level, so it's not really all that low level. Ray of stupidity also allows SR, so there's that to deal with as well.

[Eldan]

Well, the DM could allow him 15 flaws...

But yeah. Also, with a caster level 1, it would be difficult to get through.

[nekomata2]

Surprisingly, lvl 20 monk is actually harder to beat for a wizard than lvl 20 fighter. Not true in pretty much any other case, but high saves and minor SR as well as random abilities tend to be better than bonus feats in PvP vs wizard.

Orbs walk right through both those defenses. Granted, monks are pretty good with touch attacks, but quickened or not true strike helps there.

[Critical]

Ah, but does mutual annihilation result in a victory for the wizard? A level 1 wizard could not survive that much damage, and the monk could move out of the way.

A wizard could be just that fat enough. Orc Wizard with the highest base weight, Deformity: Obese, some flaw from Dragon Mag which causes you to be even fatter and Enlarge Person could do 20d6 from 5ft height, I believe.
Also, if that wouldn't be enough, the Wizard could've gotten leadership, and got his companion to fly over the target's head to ready a Benign Transposition as the Orc Wizard, falls down, making it 40d6. 140 no-save damage should be enough, I believe. Or maybe even 60d6 if his companion is a fat-ass too, making it 210 no-save damage on average. Boo-yah!

Oh, and it's kind of funny how people argue about that the Wizard needs to be high level when I've posted this. :smallbiggrin:

[PId6]

There's a couple things wrong with this. First off, although it uses up only a 2nd level slot, a human wizard doesn't have enough feats to pull it off until 15th level, so it's not really all that low level. Ray of stupidity also allows SR, so there's that to deal with as well.
Monk SR is low enough that it's quite easy to ignore. Assay SR is auto-pass, not to mention things that don't even require actions like Spell Penetration and CL boosters.

Most of the feats aren't actually necessary; they're just funny from an overkill perspective. Getting it to a 5th level slot doesn't really matter if it's autokill anyway.

[taltamir]

not the easiest method nor the lowest level requiring... but a level 20 wizard may use gate to call a level 40 monk and auto command it to immediate services, such as fight one battle on its behalf.

Because at level 20 monks become a valid target for planar binding type spells. (except that planar binding has a max HD limits of 6, 12 and 18 for lesser, regular, and greater versions... so you need to use gate, which is like greater greater planar binding)

I am not entirely sure if unique creatures means something like the terrasque of which there is only one, or a being you called by name. Because it says deities and unique creatures are not compelled to go through the gate, nor are they compelled to obey... if unique creatures does not include a named individual (which is one of the possible targets of the spell), then you can use gate to summon the very monk you are going to fight and make him your bitch :P

Anyways, since I am not sure if I could summon and control a specific monk by name, I can just summon "a level 40 monk", and order him to fight the level 20 monk. Sit back and watch the slaughter.


Level one, while the monk is sickly and asleep.

monks are immune to disease.
However, they do sleep:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm

Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
A level 20 monk is a native outsider. They DO eat, breath, and sleep.

[Kylarra]

^@ well yeah, but so can a level 20 monk, so if we go that route they are excatly equal.I am aware, that's why I said that schrodinger vs schrodinger will get us exactly nowhere.

[taltamir]

The monk can take Leadership and, assuming high enough charisma, get a cohort who is a Wizard level 17.

Therefore, to beat them, the enemy wizard has to be at least level 18.

X.X
Very nice observation about leadership, but you are wrong to assume a wizard 18 auto defeats a wizard 17. Both have access to 9th level spells. The winner in such a battle is determined by which of them is better built and is more of a batman.

@OP: I think you were interesting in more general type knowledge... so.
A level 20 monk must rely on magic items or a wizard to acquire flight. A level 9 wizard has overland flight, and protection from arrows, and a good bit of other defenses. The monk literally cannot harm a level 9 wizard by himself.

However, DnD is a team game. To generalize quite a lot, as a wizard, buffing yourself (exclusively), is sub par to buffing the party. If you buff your party's fighters your magic will go much further.
Monk 20 actually has a big problem, it is not a person, it is native outsider. This makes it immune to any spell that target's a humanoid. Spells such as "enlarge person" cease working on the monk. The monk becomes vulnerable to banishment (yet, native outsiders CAN be banished), and can be summoned and bound into service as an outsider. Its base template is resilient against magic (high saves and SR), but low HP and weak attack make it sub par for team combat and as such a bad addition to a team (And team is where the power is at).

This reminds me the first time I was told monks were bad, I replied "but I made some monks in some CRPGs and they worked well, their damage output was bad but they could tumble and dodge and just avoid enemy attacks and soak up their offensive spells while the rest of the team finished them off"

the response was golden... if the monk is hard to kill and not a threat, why not just walk around it, kill the dangerous squishes, and then debuff it and finish it off when it is alone?
I went *doh* and smacked my forhead... dumb AI in CRPGs has resulted in me making dumb assumptions...

[Tinydwarfman]

A wizard could be just that fat enough. Orc Wizard with the highest base weight, Deformity: Obese, some flaw from Dragon Mag which causes you to be even fatter and Enlarge Person could do 20d6 from 5ft height, I believe.
Also, if that wouldn't be enough, the Wizard could've gotten leadership, and got his companion to fly over the target's head to ready a Benign Transposition as the Orc Wizard, falls down, making it 40d6. 140 no-save damage should be enough, I believe. Or maybe even 60d6 if his companion is a fat-ass too, making it 210 no-save damage on average. Boo-yah!

Oh, and it's kind of funny how people argue about that the Wizard needs to be high level when I've posted this. :smallbiggrin:

That is a wonderful tactic if you can suddenly turn into an object in the middle of your fall.

Also, I believe damage caps at 20d6.

[taltamir]

That is a wonderful tactic if you can suddenly turn into an object in the middle of your fall.

Also, I believe damage caps at 20d6.

doesn't the person falling take equal amount of damage?

[Critical]

That is a wonderful tactic if you can suddenly turn into an object in the middle of your fall.

Also, I believe damage caps at 20d6.
Dictionary says that an object is "A thing that has physical existence". I believe a fat orc qualifies.

And 60d6 is the damage from 3 consecutive falls.

[term1nally s1ck]

A) Damage from falling distance caps at 20d6. Damage from weight has no cap.

B) Using L20 WBL, I can easily get immunity to the majority of nasty tricks. Hell, from early double digits, you can build the Cube, which is nigh-invulnerable.

The wizard will need 9th level spells. 17 at the best.

[taltamir]

Dictionary says that an object is "A thing that has physical existence". I believe a fat orc qualifies.

And 60d6 is the damage from 3 consecutive falls.

WOTC does not use the dictionary. WOTC says that: always <alignment> means the creature is either created/born <alignment>, becomes <alignment> when first transformed, or comes from a society that is overwhelmingly <alignment>. however, if sentient they may change their alignment.

anyways, spells that affect objects do not affect creatures. What that says about falling damage I do not know.


B) Using L20 WBL, I can easily get immunity to the majority of nasty tricks. Hell, from early double digits, you can build the Cube, which is nigh-invulnerable.

what is "the cube"?

[Flickerdart]

The Monk doesn't actually become an outsider, he just counts as one for spells and magical effects. Mundane sleeping isn't a spell nor magical effect, so he's still gotta do it.

[PId6]

The wizard will need 9th level spells. 17 at the best.
A Solar Simulacrum has 9th level spells, and can be gotten at 13th level.

[taltamir]

The Monk doesn't actually become an outsider, he just counts as one for spells and magical effects. Mundane sleeping isn't a spell nor magical effect, so he's still gotta do it.

Well, I said "native outsider", native outsiders still sleep and eat.
However, I cannot find where it says monks become native outsiders. only that they are treated as outsiders by spells and effects and yet are still possible to resurrect

[Lhurgyof]

Level one, while the monk is sickly and asleep.
Poison/disease immunity? O.o
Plus, he can easily make that fort save vs. Coup de Grace.

[Tinydwarfman]

Dictionary says that an object is "A thing that has physical existence". I believe a fat orc qualifies.

And 60d6 is the damage from 3 consecutive falls.

1. Except that Object is a defined term in D&D. When a person dies they become an object. Also see "Dealing Damage to Objects" in the Injury section.

2. Ah, right, my bad.

[PId6]

Plus, he can easily make that fort save vs. Coup de Grace.

Max out your Str and use a Scythe, nonproficiency be damned. (2d4+1.5*Str)x4 leads to some ridiculously high Fort saves. A level 1 orc wizard with 28 Str (18 base + 4 racial + 6 Fist of Stone) can deal on average 72 damage this way. I'm willing to bet that the monk isn't surviving a DC 82 save-or-die more than 5% of the time.
Good luck with that.

[Jack_Simth]

what is "the cube"?
A particular PVP build, of a Wizard spending his WBL and a goodly chunk of XP abusing the rules to make an *almost* invulnerable build... and there's theoretically two people who know the actual build (the player who made it, and the judge in that particular PvP arena who approved it).

[taltamir]

Poison/disease immunity? O.o
Plus, he can easily make that fort save vs. Coup de Grace.

but being alseep he is easy to hit, and a coup degrace still deals damage as a critical hit... so monks 6+con HP vs a crit with something big and nasty... say, a scyth. 8d4+4xSTR damage should be enough to kill the monk.

[Tinydwarfman]

A particular PVP build, of a Wizard spending his WBL and a goodly chunk of XP abusing the rules to make an *almost* invulnerable build... and there's theoretically two people who know the actual build (the player who made it, and the judge in that particular PvP arena who approved it).

Actually, I saw it (or at least a version of it) on the WotC forums. I'm not sure if it was the ToS version, or if it's even still there though...

[Lhurgyof]

Technically, a level one wizard can kill a level 20 monk.
Technically, a level one monk can kill a level 20 wizard.
All you need is a few 20's and a confirm.

Edit: Don't even know why the quote was in there. xD

[taltamir]

Technically, a level one wizard can kill a level 20 monk.
Technically, a level one monk can kill a level 20 wizard.
All you need is a few 20's and a confirm.

level 1 monk vs level 20 wizard:
- monk tries to sneak up on wizard... wizard has foresight spell, cannot be surprised http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm
- monk loses surprise round due to forsight, roll initiative. Monk wins initiative. Wizard casts celerity AFTER the monk won initiative to steal initiative.
- wizard wins.

[Tinydwarfman]

Technically, a level one wizard can kill a level 20 monk.
Technically, a level one monk can kill a level 20 wizard.
All you need is a few 20's and a confirm.

Edit: Don't even know why the quote was in there. xD

So the monk deals, what, 2d6+10? That won't even hurt a wizard with NO buffs up. 3 20's = insta-death is a houserule.

[Flickerdart]

level 1 monk vs level 20 wizard:
- monk tries to sneak up on wizard... wizard has foresight spell, cannot be surprised http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm
- monk loses surprise round due to forsight, roll initiative. Monk wins initiative. Wizard casts celerity AFTER the monk won initiative to steal initiative.
- wizard wins.
Wizard spends his action on doing nothing, Monk waits until Wizard dies of old age. Wizard was Astral Projection, with the real Wizard on his Genesis plane. Wizard creates another Projection, goes about his day.

[Lhurgyof]

level 1 monk vs level 20 wizard:
- monk tries to sneak up on wizard... wizard has foresight spell, cannot be surprised http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm
- monk loses surprise round due to forsight, roll initiative. Monk wins initiative. Wizard casts celerity AFTER the monk won initiative to steal initiative.
- wizard wins.

You are very persistent and quite the wizard-lover, aren't you? O.o
Sure, but why not just make the monk a pun-pun?
Why not make the wizard a pun-pun?

Either can win. That's what I said. A lowly level 1 wizard can get lucky, as can a level 1 monk.

[taltamir]

Wizard spends his action on doing nothing, Monk waits until Wizard dies of old age. Wizard was Astral Projection, with the real Wizard on his Genesis plane. Wizard creates another Projection, goes about his day.

if you are referring to monks not aging, you should know it explicitly states that they DO die of age... they just don't suffer from the penalties of aging.

[Tinydwarfman]

You are very persistent and quite the wizard-lover, aren't you? O.o
Sure, but why not just make the monk a pun-pun?
Why not make the wizard a pun-pun?

Either can win. That's what I said. A lowly level 1 wizard can get lucky, as can a level 1 monk.

Except that, even if the monk gets REALLY lucky, he won't kill the wizard. If the wizard gets really lucky, he will kill the monk.

[Lhurgyof]

So the monk deals, what, 2d6+10? That won't even hurt a wizard with NO buffs up. 3 20's = insta-death is a houserule.

Two natural 20's and a confirm is not a houserule. It's optional from the DMG.
But he could always coup de grace the wizard and the wizard fails his fortitude save. Ok?
Either can win.

[taltamir]

Two natural 20's and a confirm is not a houserule. It's optional from the DMG.
But he could always coup de grace the wizard and the wizard fails his fortitude save. Ok?
Either can win.

no they can't.
How does he coup de grace the wizard? catch him in his sleep? because:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm

When the wizard is resting, he is not on the prime material dimension.
When the wizard is not resting he has buffs and spells that make him immune to anything a monk 1 can do. Unless the wizard intentionally chooses to let the monk harm him that is.

[Mystic Muse]

Two natural 20's and a confirm is not a houserule. It's optional from the DMG.
But he could always coup de grace the wizard and the wizard fails his fortitude save. Ok?
Either can win.

Which makes it a house rule since it's not in the rules other than as an option.

[Lhurgyof]

Ok, monk is a pun-pun.
Oh wait, wizard is a pun-pun. This thread can keep on going. Sure, wizards are powerful, but both can gain infinite power via rules abuse. I was just saying that either can win, which is true.
It's like you people are getting offended because "OMG! A mighty super wizard could be killed by a meazly monk!?!?!1"
For ****'s sake... Dx

[taltamir]

Ok, monk is a pun-pun.
Oh wait, wizard is a pun-pun. This thread can keep on going. Sure, wizards are powerful, but both can gain infinite power via rules abuse. I was just saying that either can win, which is true.

No, it ISN'T true. you are saying a monk 1 could kill a wizard that doesn't want to die...

Well, actually there is ONE way in which the monk can kill the wizard... seduce the wizard into a relationship of SnM with the intention of murdering the wizard.

And if you are pun pun, you are not a monk, you are pun pun...

A wizard doesn't have to be played as super cheesy to be immune to level 1 monks. He merely needs to utilize any defense spells as intended.
But its not just a wizard thing... A level 20 barbarian for example has enough DR to make slitting his throat in his sleep difficult.

[Tinydwarfman]

Ok, monk is a pun-pun.
Oh wait, wizard is a pun-pun. This thread can keep on going. Sure, wizards are powerful, but both can gain infinite power via rules abuse. I was just saying that either can win, which is true.
It's like you people are getting offended because "OMG! A mighty super wizard could be killed by a meazly monk!?!?!1"
For ****'s sake... Dx

No, were being reasonable, and discussing what might actually happen within the constraints of the OP's question. You're the one who was like
"What, you used Foresight or Celerity?!? ZOMG pun-pun!"
What rules abuse?

[Lhurgyof]

No, it ISN'T true. you are saying a monk 1 could kill a wizard that doesn't want to die...

Well, actually there is ONE way in which the monk can kill the wizard... seduce the wizard into a relationship of SnM with the intention of murdering the wizard.

Yeah, or the monk is a pun-pun. Anything can gain infinite power.
Sure, the monk is on par not as powerful as a wizard. Good job for pointing out the extremely obvious. But it's completely possible that a monk level 1 could end up killing a wizard level 20. It could happen. In fact, a level 1 commoner could end up killing a level 20 wizard.

Let's get back to the actual thread. O.o

[fryplink]

I am not entirely sure if unique creatures means something like the terrasque of which there is only one, or a being you called by name. Because it says deities and unique creatures are not compelled to go through the gate, nor are they compelled to obey... if unique creatures does not include a named individual (which is one of the possible targets of the spell), then you can use gate to summon the very monk you are going to fight and make him your bitch :P



I think the target has to be an extraplanar creature, so you'd have to plane shift yourself to another plane before binding the monk

In fact, the target of a gate spell doesnt have to be an outsider/elemental, they just have to be an extraplanar creature (which is given to any creature whos not on the plane their being summoned too iirc) meaning that this could happen to any class

[Lhurgyof]

No, were being reasonable, and discussing what might actually happen within the constraints of the OP's question. You're the one who was like
"What, you used Foresight or Celerity?!? ZOMG pun-pun!"
What rules abuse?

Ugh, I'm saying that it is completely possible for a wizard 1 to kill a monk 20, sure.
But then again, it's completely possible for monk 1 to kill wizard 20.
Why the **** am I even arguing with you guys? This is a god damned game. Dx

[Rothen]

Ok, monk is a pun-pun.


I don't think a level 1 kobold monk can go punpun yet. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Edit: Please stop swearing, Lhurgyof. You're the one who sounds like he takes the game a bit too serious now.

[Lhurgyof]

I don't think a level 1 kobold monk can go punpun yet. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Edit: Please stop swearing, Lhurgyof. You're the one who sounds like he takes the game a bit too serious now.

Okedoke, sorry. Bad habit. :smallfrown:
As long as you get some sort of effect that's save or die, any character can lose due to crappy rolls. So, besides the coup de grace orc, when's the first save or die a wizard gets?

Edit: Lose not loose. Dx

[Gametime]

A fat wizard could use his raven familiar to benign transposition above the monk to cause no-save 20d6 damage, 70 damage average, assuming the monk doesn't have decent con, it should be enough on a lucky roll.

A level 20 monk gets 19d8+8+conx20. He'd have to have a really terrible con, or the roll would have to be really good, for it to kill him. Don't forget - he ignores the first 10 points of damage unless the wizard overcomes DR/magic.


A) Damage from falling distance caps at 20d6. Damage from weight has no cap.



Only if the object is being used as an improvised weapon. If the object is falling, damage still caps at 20d6. (DMG, pg. 303.)


Which makes it a house rule since it's not in the rules other than as an option.

No, it makes it a variant rule - just like wound points, defense bonuses, and the Cloistered Cleric. A houserule is something you make up - a variant rule is a rule offered as a variant from the core rules.

Of course, even if a monk wins by rolling an insta-kill, no one is going to think it's because he's a monk. A commoner in the exact same situation would still have won, so it doesn't say much about the monk class. Also, any level 20 wizard worth his salt will never get hit by a level 1 monk; if he even gets an attack roll, you're doing it wrong.


The monk can take Leadership and, assuming high enough charisma, get a cohort who is a Wizard level 17.

Therefore, to beat them, the enemy wizard has to be at least level 18.

Not necessarily. Spell levels are more important than spell numbers, and the difference between a level 18 and 17 wizard is minimal. Also, since Leadership is allowed, the wizard might as well get himself some cohorts too; action economy can do a lot to overcome spells.

I'm pretty sure that a level 13 wizard beat a level 20 something once, though I can't remember for sure. If the level 20 player knows all the tricks of WBL, though, you'll probably need 9th level spells to win.

[For Valor]

Wizard 1 tries hard enough and finally gets Wish from Pazuzu, and wishes for a candle of invocation...

Game Over. No matter what level the monk is, the Wizard will find a way to cheat reality and win with his newfound infinite wishes.

Honestly, is there ANY argument against that?

[taltamir]

Okedoke, sorry. Bad habit. :smallfrown:
As long as you get some sort of effect that's save or die, any character can lose due to crappy rolls. So, besides the coup de grace orc, when's the first save or die a wizard gets?

Edit: Lose not loose. Dx

AFAIK you do not auto fail a saving throw on a nat 1.
Where is the monk "acquiring" this save or die spell from? he just buys a scroll of it? how is he using it?

And no, a monk with use magic device and a scroll of "wail of the banishee" will not be able to kill a wizard.
The wizard sleeps in his rope trick, when he is not asleep he is protected by foresight against surprise rounds, and can steal initiative via a celerity. Assuming he isn't in his demiplane and what you see before you is his stral projection, clone, simulcara, etc.
A level 1 wizard can get lucky (and luck will be a factor) against a level 20 monk, a level 1 monk cannot do the same to a level 20 wizard.

I already specified that there is 1 and only 1 way for a level 1 monk to take out a level 20 wizard... For the wizard to willingly let down their guard. If the wizard trusts the monk to an inordinate amount, then he can be betrayed. (assuming no optimization of social skills, in which case the level 20 character will win all sense motive checks vs level 1 char's bluff)

[Critical]

A level 20 monk gets 19d8+8+conx20. He'd have to have a really terrible con, or the roll would have to be really good, for it to kill him. Don't forget - he ignores the first 10 points of damage unless the wizard overcomes DR/magic.

Yeah, I mentioned that the monk needs terrible con or the wizard needs a lucky roll, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Also, read on to find this guy doing 60d6 at level 6, that's 210 on average -10 from DR, making it 200. The monk has HP equal to 94+conx20 on average. So, a monk with a con mod equal to or not higher than +5, on average, should die. Yay. :smallbiggrin:


Wizard 1 tries hard enough and finally gets Wish from Pazuzu, and wishes for a candle of invocation...

Game Over. No matter what level the monk is, the Wizard will find a way to cheat reality and win with his newfound infinite wishes.

Honestly, is there ANY argument against that?

If the the thread title would be "Lowest level pun-pun to beat lvl 20 monk", I'd agree.

[Lhurgyof]

AFAIK you do not auto fail a saving throw on a nat 1.

What's AFAIK? And yes, you normally do.

[Mystic Muse]

What's AFAIK? And yes, you normally do.

As far as I know.

IIRC is "If I recall correctly"

[taltamir]

What's AFAIK? And yes, you normally do.

you were right: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows

However, still doesn't matter.
1. You can't afford a save or die spell
2. you cannot cast it if you could afford it.
3. the wizard will go first and kill you the first round, so you would never even get a chance to cast it even if you could cast it.
4. thats not the wizard, that is his simulcara / clone / astral projection / etc. The wizard is on another plane
5. A nat 1 is the only way a level 20 wizard will fail your SoD.

[Rothen]

Out of sheer curiosity, how would a level 1 wizard go about killing a level 20 monk?

To be honest, the entire 1 vs 20 argument seems silly to me, since WBL alone can ensure that there is no chance involved in that particular battle.

Edit: Not to question Taltamir's expertise, but it's pretty common knowledge that you fail a save on a 1. Are you sure you're the one who should link to the srd constantly?

[Merk]

This topic becomes more interesting if the characters are limited to level 1 wealth instead of WBL.

[Rothen]

This topic becomes more interesting if the characters are limited to level 1 wealth instead of WBL.

Oh well, in that case, the wizard can consistently win at around level 5-6. When Fly becomes available. :smallwink:

[Lhurgyof]

As far as I know.

IIRC is "If I recall correctly"

Ah, thank you very much. I've seen AFAIK used a lot recently and never knew what it was. xD

[JonestheSpy]

- monk tries to sneak up on wizard... wizard has foresight spell, cannot be surprised http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm
- monk loses surprise round due to forsight, roll initiative. Monk wins initiative. Wizard casts celerity AFTER the monk won initiative to steal initiative.
- wizard wins.

You know, I really really wasn't going to comment here, but I find this such a clear example of the most common Wzrds Always Rule! fallacy that comes up in these threads, I can't help but point it out.

Namely, the assumption that a wizard will always have the appropriate spell to counter a particular threat memorized and active when the threat appears. It also demonstrates the weakness of the arena thing for determining a classes strengths - yeah, a player is going to choose spells like Foresight if they know ahead of time they're going to be fighting a character who specializes in stealth, but how likely is that same wizard going to have that spell memorized in regular circumstances AND have it in effect when someone happens to be sneaking up on them? Possible? Yes. Probable? I don't think so.

[Gametime]

Yeah, I mentioned that the monk needs terrible con or the wizard needs a lucky roll, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Also, read on to find this guy doing 60d6 at level 6, that's 210 on average -10 from DR, making it 200. The monk has HP equal to 94+conx20 on average. So, a monk with a con mod equal to or not higher than +5, on average, should die. Yay. :smallbiggrin:



Oh, I forgot to mention this in the last post. You need to fall at least 10 feet to do any damage. Each additional 10 feet adds 1d6 damage. Otherwise, you deal 1d6 damage for every 200 pounds of weight. In order to deal maximum falling damage from 10 feet up, you'd need to weight 4000 pounds. That's beyond just "fat."

The maximum weight for a Half-Orc male is 438 lbs. Multiple that by 8 for Enlarge Person, and you fall just short of the necessary 4000. (None of the traits or feats that involve being fat actually increase your weight - the closest thing I could find was Deformity (Obese) in the BoVD, and all that does is mention being triple the normal weight, and that only in the description section rather than the mechanical benefit section.) Of course, you could easily use spells to just fall from higher up, but at this point you might as well just use different spells to accomplish the goal anyway.

Also, a level 20 monk can easily afford countermeasures to someone falling on them. I don't think the question was intended as "lowest level wizard capable of dealing enough damage to kill a motionless sac with the hit points of a level 20 monk."

EDIT: Also, the Benign Transposition trick doesn't work, if I'm understanding how you intend to do it (fall, cohort casts, fall again). You have to hit them once to deal the first instance of falling damage, which is almost certainly going to kill you at low levels. At this point, you are dead and no longer a "willing subject" of Benign Transposition. Also, your cohort would teleport right onto the person you just fell on, so they wouldn't deal falling damage either. There is probably some other spell that would work better, given the vast variety available, though.

Even if it did work, your math is slightly off - the monk would take 180 damage on average, not 200, because 3 instances of falling damage means 3 instances of DR. Not that it makes much of a difference.




Namely, the assumption that a wizard will always have the appropriate spell to counter a particular threat memorized and active when the threat appears. It also demonstrates the weakness of the arena thing for determining a classes strengths - yeah, a player is going to choose spells like Foresight if they know ahead of time they're going to be fighting a character who specializes in stealth, but how likely is that same wizard going to have that spell memorized in regular circumstances AND have it in effect when someone happens to be sneaking up on them? Possible? Yes. Probable? I don't think so.

I dunno, if I got to be so powerful that the only conceivable way my enemies could kill me was to sneak up on me, I'd probably take the time to prepare some countermeasures. Adventurers don't get to level 17 by not being paranoid, loot-hungry, homeless mass-murderers, after all!

[Tinydwarfman]

You know, I really really wasn't going to comment here, but I find this such a clear example of the most common Wzrds Always Rule! fallacy that comes up in these threads, I can't help but point it out.

Namely, the assumption that a wizard will always have the appropriate spell to counter a particular threat memorized and active when the threat appears. It also demonstrates the weakness of the arena thing for determining a classes strengths - yeah, a player is going to choose spells like Foresight if they know ahead of time they're going to be fighting a character who specializes in stealth, but how likely is that same wizard going to have that spell memorized in regular circumstances AND have it in effect when someone happens to be sneaking up on them? Possible? Yes. Probable? I don't think so.

Um, what? In arenas people never know what they will be facing, and still wizards consistently win. If people in this thread were going overboard with cheese, they'd be talking about beastland ferocity and delay death, not well known spells that are useful throughout the day. Seriously, Foresight is slightly suspect, seeing as it's duration is only 10 min/lvl, but how exactly is our monk going to be sneaking up on the wizard anyway? It's far more likely that the wizard will have cast foresight than it is for the monk to actually get a surprise round.


EDIT: Also, the Benign Transposition trick doesn't work, if I'm understanding how you intend to do it (fall, cohort casts, fall again). You have to hit them once to deal the first instance of falling damage, which is almost certainly going to kill you at low levels. At this point, you are dead and no longer a "willing subject" of Benign Transposition. Also, your cohort would teleport right onto the person you just fell on, so they wouldn't deal falling damage either. There is probably some other spell that would work better, given the vast variety available, though.

Nah, the real reason it doesn't work is because living creatures are not objects! Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

[JonestheSpy]

I dunno, if I got to be so powerful that the only conceivable way my enemies could kill me was to sneak up on me, I'd probably take the time to prepare some countermeasures. Adventurers don't get to level 17 by not being paranoid, loot-hungry, homeless mass-murderers, after all!

Okay, you're a 17th level wizard - you get one 9th level spell. You're going to choose Foresight every day? And it's good for less than three hours out of your 16 +/- hours spent awake.

You think that everyone who's going to sneak up on you will just happen to do so on the days you've got the right spells prepared, during their time of effect? To quote a former president: Doubt it.



Um, what? In arenas people never know what they will be facing, and still wizards consistently win.

Arena fights automatically tilt the odds vastly in favor of spellcasters, who can expend all their magic in a single fight - usually a bad idea in an actual adventure scenario. And in discussions such as this where two classes are being theoretically (but not accurately,imo) compared, of course the people describing the wizards' actions know what they're facing.


Seriously, Foresight is slightly suspect, seeing as it's duration is only 10 min/lvl, but how exactly is our monk going to be sneaking up on the wizard anyway? It's far more likely that the wizard will have cast foresight than it is for the monk to actually get a surprise round.

You're missing the point, which is the fallacy of assuming that a wizard always has the best spell available in any given situation. As for how a monk could sneak up on a wizard, please use a little imagination. A potion of Invisibility only costs 300 gp, and monks are rather good at moving silently. That's just a single possibility, there are plenty others.

[PId6]

Okay, you're a 17th level wizard - you get one 9th level spell. You're going to choose Foresight every day? And it's good for less than three hours out of your 16 +/- hours spent awake.
You get three 9th level spells per day at 17th level, at least. 28 Int is very easily gotten by then (18 base + 4 level up + 6 enhancement, not even mentioning racial + age + inherent), while an optimized wizard always wants to be specialist. That's not even mentioning Focused Specialist and Archmage's SLAs for even more slots.

[Lycanthromancer]

A level 1 wizard is fully capable of killing a level 20 monk.

This is, of course, made considerably more likely if it's also a black ethergaunt.

If the monk was also a black ethergaunt? The monk would likely win (though this isn't 100% certain).

Actually you could do this as a level 1 wizard. Take Mercantile Background and the Collegiate Wizard feat, fill your spellbook with all of the 33+ wizard/sorcerer cantrips available (since you get all of them) and all 12 or so 1st level spells you get for having a 16-17 Int (assuming no gray elf or a nice fat 18), then sell for a nice fat 3375 gp, thanks to Mercantile Background. Buy a scroll of magic circle against evil and a scroll of lesser planar binding. Cast the former, then the latter, and pull in a mirror mephit. Offer him the remaining 1875 gp for a single casting of simulacrum of an efreeti, commanded to be utterly loyal to you to the exclusion of all else. Part of the deal is that you shall ensure that he is never molested in this way ever again. He should be quite amenable, and a Charisma check shouldn't even be required. Take the resulting simulacrum and wish for a magical amulet that prevents its wearer from being summoned or called against its will, and give it to the mephit, telling it that its service is at an end, and that you desire its pleasant and safe return. Then use the wishes to get some more simulacrums of efreet, and even some solars, after which you can feel free to wish for whatever you want and need to destroy the impudent monk for daring to look at you crosswise.

And they lived happily ever after. And by 'they' I mean the wizard, who is the only one that actually matters.

[Gametime]

Okay, you're a 17th level wizard - you get one 9th level spell. You're going to choose Foresight every day? And it's good for less than three hours out of your 16 +/- hours spent awake.

You think that everyone who's going to sneak up on you will just happen to do so on the days you've got the right spells prepared, during their time of effect? To quote a former president: Doubt it.

I get three 9th level spells per day if I'm a specialist wizard with at least a 28 intelligence, which is fairly likely by level 17. A greater metamagic rod of extend means that a single casting will get me just over five and a half hours of Foresight. It's not enough to last the whole day - but then, I doubt my wizard is going to be especially vulnerable for the whole day. At the very least, he's going to be flying and invisible anytime he isn't specifically required to interact with others or be on the ground.

It doesn't make the wizard invulnerable, certainly, but it significantly reduces the chance that the monk is going to catch the wizard off-guard. Assuming he'll definitely be protected is fallacious, but assuming he won't be is at least as unfounded.

[Lhurgyof]

A level 1 wizard is fully capable of killing a level 20 monk.

This is, of course, made considerably more likely if it's also a black ethergaunt.

If the monk was also a black ethergaunt? The monk would likely win (though this isn't 100% certain).

Actually you could do this as a level 1 wizard. Take Mercantile Background and the Collegiate Wizard feat, fill your spellbook with all of the 33+ wizard/sorcerer cantrips available (since you get all of them) and all 12 or so 1st level spells you get for having a 16-17 Int (assuming no gray elf or a nice fat 18), then sell for a nice fat 3375 gp, thanks to Mercantile Background. Buy a scroll of magic circle against evil and a scroll of lesser planar binding. Cast the former, then the latter, and pull in a mirror mephit. Offer him the remaining 1875 gp for a single casting of simulacrum of an efreeti, commanded to be utterly loyal to you to the exclusion of all else. Part of the deal is that you shall ensure that he is never molested in this way ever again. He should be quite amenable, and a Charisma check shouldn't even be required. Take the resulting simulacrum and wish for a magical amulet that prevents its wearer from being summoned or called against its will, and give it to the mephit, telling it that its service is at an end, and that you desire its pleasant and safe return. Then use the wishes to get some more simulacrums of efreet, and even some solars, after which you can feel free to wish for whatever you want and need to destroy the impudent monk for daring to look at you crosswise.

And they lived happily ever after. And by 'they' I mean the wizard, who is the only one that actually matters.

... Couldn't the monk do the same exact thing?
Anyways, I'm pretty sick of the people who are raving over wazards.

As Jones the Spy said: "I find this such a clear example of the most common Wzrds Always Rule! fallacy that comes up in these threads, I can't help but point it out."

[PId6]

... Couldn't the monk do the same exact thing?
Not without UMD. How does he cast from arcane scrolls?

[Mystic Muse]

Anyways, I'm pretty sick of the people who are raving over wazards.


They are raving because wizards Are just that powerful. If you know how to build them, it is very unlikely they'll die. I think it was proven that a ninth level wizard can take on the entire world's military and win. The wizard is just so versatile he can leave the Monk behind in the dust if he wants to.

[Gametime]

... Couldn't the monk do the same exact thing?
Anyways, I'm pretty sick of the people who are raving over wazards.

As Jones the Spy said: "I find this such a clear example of the most common Wzrds Always Rule! fallacy that comes up in these threads, I can't help but point it out."

I don't know - do monks get spellbooks filled with wizard spells as a class feature, or have anything else that they could sell for the seed money necessary to get this operation rolling? Also, can they activate scrolls, without fail, at level 1?

People don't "rave" about wizards because they're just giant wizard fanboys. (Well, some people are, but it's not the overwhelming sentiment.) People insist that wizards are better than monks because, in the vast majority of cases involving direct conflict between the two, the wizard is better.

It's worth noting that spells have featured heavily in the discussion of the wizard's strengths, while so far the only thing the monk has going for him besides crazy-go-nuts money is Hide and Move Silently as class skills.


Not without UMD. How does he cast from arcane scrolls?

Be reasonable, now - what monk doesn't take UMD? :smalltongue:

[Tinydwarfman]

Okay, you're a 17th level wizard - you get one 9th level spell. You're going to choose Foresight every day? And it's good for less than three hours out of your 16 +/- hours spent awake.

You think that everyone who's going to sneak up on you will just happen to do so on the days you've got the right spells prepared, during their time of effect? To quote a former president: Doubt it.

You think the wizard is going to present himself a viable target to a 1st level monk in any conceivable length of time at all? Doubt it.
More seriously, the wizard travels long distance with teleports, short distances by flying, and sleeps in extra-dimensional spaces. If he's at all optimized.
Even if not, he is almost certainly in a seat of great power, with considerable allies, and defenses that a 1st level monk could not bypass.

Now, the same goes for a level 1 wizard, unless pulling shenanigans, the wizzy would not be able to kill almost epic monk.

IF they did meet however, and IF the level one sides were extremely lucky, the monk would do piddly damage, while the wizard would disable and kill the monk, purely by virtue of his save or suck spells.

[Lhurgyof]

I don't know - do monks get spellbooks filled with wizard spells as a class feature, or have anything else that they could sell for the seed money necessary to get this operation rolling? Also, can they activate scrolls, without fail, at level 1?

People don't "rave" about wizards because they're just giant wizard fanboys. (Well, some people are, but it's not the overwhelming sentiment.) People insist that wizards are better than monks because, in the vast majority of cases involving direct conflict between the two, the wizard is better.

It's worth noting that spells have featured heavily in the discussion of the wizard's strengths, while so far the only thing the monk has going for him besides crazy-go-nuts money is Hide and Move Silently as class skills.



Be reasonable, now - what monk doesn't take UMD? :smalltongue:

Yeah, but this is vs. a level 20 monk, so I can guess he has the money and the means.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah, but this is vs. a level 20 monk, so I can guess he has the money and the means.

The reason the Monk wins is because he has enough money to get about 90 candles of invocation at this point and he's level 20. A level 1 wizard could theoretically beat him but it's rather unlikely.

[Tinydwarfman]

Arena fights automatically tilt the odds vastly in favor of spellcasters, who can expend all their magic in a single fight - usually a bad idea in an actual adventure scenario. And in discussions such as this where two classes are being theoretically (but not accurately,imo) compared, of course the people describing the wizards' actions know what they're facing.



lolwut? You kidding me? Please show me an arena where a wizard actually expended all of his spells. The majority of a wizard's power lies in his ridiculous versatility, and having time to prepare, two things that a wizard can not do in an arena.

Wizards are even better outside of arenas. Melee characters should thrive in arenas. Combat is their niche. A wizard's niche? Doing Everything.

[Lycanthromancer]

I can kill an adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) with a level 5 wizard, core only, with nothing but a bit of prep time and forewarning. Can you do the same with a level 20 monk, assuming neither character was built specifically for the fight?

[Tinydwarfman]

I can kill an adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) with a level 5 wizard, core only, with nothing but a bit of prep time and forewarning. Can you do the same with a level 20 monk, assuming neither character was built specifically for the fight?

Come on Lycanthromancer, we all know what a great optimizer you are, there's no need to go flaunting it about everywhere. You're just making the monks angry.

[Lhurgyof]

I can kill an adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) with a level 5 wizard, core only, with nothing but a bit of prep time and forewarning. Can you do the same with a level 20 monk, assuming neither character was built specifically for the fight?

Why'd you change it back to adamantine golem?
And I'm sure that no DM would ever allow that. Ever. You're speaking theoretically, of course. And no, I don't believe I would ever build a monk like that. Because if I ever did the DM would smite me where I stand.

How would it feel to kill an adamantine golem at level 5, looking around all happy and smug at everyone else. And then the DM rolls some dice...
"Rocks fall. You die."

[Lycanthromancer]

Come on Lycanthromancer, we all know what a great optimizer you are, there's no need to go flaunting it about everywhere. You're just making the monks angry.If the shoe fits*









*kick the monk with it.

Repeatedly.

[PId6]

I can kill an adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) with a level 5 wizard, core only, with nothing but a bit of prep time and forewarning. Can you do the same with a level 20 monk, assuming neither character was built specifically for the fight?
I can't help but notice said golem cannot fly...

[Lycanthromancer]

Why'd you change it back to adamantine golem?Well, I could possibly kill the colossus, but there's actually a chance of losing that one. Go for the sure thing.


And I'm sure that no DM would ever allow that. Ever. You're speaking theoretically, of course.I've only had one DM I'd pull something like that on, and he sent our party of 8 level 16s up against Malar (yes, that Malar (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/deities1.pl?Malar)). And expected us to win.

We did, but that's beside the point. It was luck and quick-thinking, rather than op-fu.


And no, I don't believe I would ever build a monk like that. Because if I ever did the DM would smite me where I stand.See above.


How would it feel to kill an adamantine golem at level 5, looking around all happy and smug at everyone else. And then the DM rolls some dice...
"Rocks fall. You die."Ironically, "Rocks fall," is pretty much what would happen to the golem.


I can't help but notice said golem cannot fly...BINGO*






*was his name-o.

[Gametime]

Yeah, but this is vs. a level 20 monk, so I can guess he has the money and the means.

Oh, yeah, a level 20 monk wouldn't even need to bother with the payment shenanigans. A level 20 monk could just buy some candles of invocation and go to town.

Of course, so could a level 20 commoner with appropriate WBL. The level 1 wizard did, at least, use some class features to facilitate his cheese.

A sufficiently optimized level 20 character cannot be challenged except equivalent opposing wealth or very high level spells (combined with lots of opposing wealth).

[Lhurgyof]

Well, I could possibly kill the colossus, but there's actually a chance of losing that one. Go for the sure thing.

I've only had one DM I'd pull something like that on, and he sent our party of 8 level 16s up against Malar (yes, that Malar). And expected us to win.

We did, but that's beside the point. It was luck and quick-thinking, rather than op-fu.

See above.

Ironically, "Rocks fall," is pretty much what would happen to the golem.

Ohh, what the hell is that spell name... I know what you're talking about, it just escapes me. Dx

And yeah, DM's like that kinda deserve it, unless it's important to the story or you're warned beforehand that you have little chance of surviving something without optimization.

[Lhurgyof]

Oh, yeah, a level 20 monk wouldn't even need to bother with the payment shenanigans. A level 20 monk could just buy some candles of invocation and go to town.

Of course, so could a level 20 commoner with appropriate WBL. The level 1 wizard did, at least, use some class features to facilitate his cheese.

A sufficiently optimized level 20 character cannot be challenged except equivalent opposing wealth or very high level spells (combined with lots of opposing wealth).

Yes, but pun-puns don't really count.

[Lycanthromancer]

Ohh, what the hell is that spell name... I know what you're talking about, it just escapes me. DxIt's called shrink item. And it's abusable like nobody's business. Add to alter self or fly and non-flying critters without ranged options have no chance outside of really cramped quarters.


And yeah, DM's like that kinda deserve it, unless it's important to the story or you're warned beforehand that you have little chance of surviving something without optimization.I didn't optimize for that one. Wish I'd known he was THAT kind of DM; I would've played a wizard rather than a healbot.

[JonestheSpy]

You get three 9th level spells per day at 17th level, at least. 28 Int is very easily gotten by then (18 base + 4 level up + 6 enhancement, not even mentioning racial + age + inherent), while an optimized wizard always wants to be specialist. That's not even mentioning Focused Specialist and Archmage's SLAs for even more slots.

You are assuming a style of play that is by no means universal. It may shock some people here, but not every character starts out with 18 in their prime attribute, and many people, even in this heavily-weighted toward optimzers board, prefer non-specialist wizards.




You think the wizard is going to present himself a viable target to a 1st level monk in any conceivable length of time at all? Doubt it.

No, of course I don't think a 1st level character is going to be a realistic threat to a high level one. I was pointing out the fallacies of "Wizards always have the right spell", not to mention the silliness of "Can't sneak up on wzrds!"


lolwut? You kidding me? Please show me an arena where a wizard actually expended all of his spells.

Completely misses the point. Spellcasters are designed with the idea that they have to ration out their magic over multiple encounters and varying situations. A spellcaster who a) gets to choose spells all for the purpose of winning a single duel; and b) doesn't need to worry about whether any particular spell might be better saved for the next encounter, has a gigantic advantage over a nonspellcaster.

I really can't imagine that not being obvious to anyone not in active denial.




Lots of silly claims and plans that no half-way competent DM would allow anyone to get away with.


Sounds like someone might need to spend more time playing and less time internet theorizing...

[PId6]

You are assuming a style of play that is by no means universal. It may shock some people here, but not every character starts out with 18 in their prime attribute, and many people, even in this heavily-weighted toward optimzers board, prefer non-specialist wizards.
No, it's not universal. Still, if you want to judge the true potential of character classes, you need to see them fully optimized. A wizard that spends all of his spell slots on, say, Hold Portal would be significantly worse than any monk, and would likewise be a terrible way to judge the class. While not specializing or not maxing Int is not nearly as extreme an example, it's still not achieving the limits of the class and thus not serving as an adequate judge of the class's capabilities.

[Dilb]

I can kill an adamantine golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm) with a level 5 wizard, core only, with nothing but a bit of prep time and forewarning. Can you do the same with a level 20 monk, assuming neither character was built specifically for the fight?

Yeah, probably. At speed 20 feet and can't run, the monk's movement speed means she is in no danger whatsoever (most medium characters are in no danger whatsoever in open spaces, but never mind that). Meanwhile, the monk probably has a golembane scarab, in which case she can shuriken the golem to death. Alternatively she has a +1 flaming/freezing/shocking sling, and kills it with energy damage, assuming that the immunity to magic doesn't somehow apply to weapon enhancements. Neither item is expensive, or even cheesy compared carrying several items of 2 cubic feet of iron per level.

Even a monk with spring attack could conceivably kill it, unless the golem can ready an action to grapple and interrupt her, in which case the monk goes ethereal, runs off and buys either of those items, and comes back and kills it.

Edit - This means a level 3 monk could kill it if she were allowed to spend all her WBL on the scarab.

[Gametime]

Yeah, probably. At speed 20 feet and can't run, the monk's movement speed means she is in no danger whatsoever (most medium characters are in no danger whatsoever in open spaces, but never mind that). Meanwhile, the monk probably has a golembane scarab, in which case she can shuriken the golem to death. Alternatively she has a +1 flaming/freezing/shocking sling, and kills it with energy damage, assuming that the immunity to magic doesn't somehow apply to weapon enhancements. Neither item is expensive, or even cheesy compared carrying several items of 2 cubic feet of iron per level.



A golembane scarab probably counts as being built specifically for that fight. Unless, of course, all your monks carry one around - which is possible, certainly, but seems unlikely.

However, I agree that a level 20 monk should have no problem with the easily-outpaced golem.


You are assuming a style of play that is by no means universal. It may shock some people here, but not every character starts out with 18 in their prime attribute, and many people, even in this heavily-weighted toward optimzers board, prefer non-specialist wizards.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that "all wizards in every game ever are entirely unkilllabe." The much more common, and much more defensible, claim is that a properly optimized wizard is exceedingly difficult to touch.

Whether or not everyone plays that way is irrelevant; the point is that a wizard can easily get a 28 intelligence and choose to specialize, thus having access to multiple 9th level spells per day immediately upon hitting level 17.


Sounds like someone might need to spend more time playing and less time internet theorizing...

I hope the OP will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of this thread internet theorizing? I don't recall Lycanthromancer suggesting anyone actually implement this plan in a game. You don't need to get snarky just because he answered the thread's topic.

[Choco]

I hope the OP will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of this thread internet theorizing? I don't recall Lycanthromancer suggesting anyone actually implement this plan in a game. You don't need to get snarky just because he answered the thread's topic.

I would say yeah, it is a bit more about theorizing, just to get our craniums working and get new ideas for cheese :smallbiggrin:.

If we went by pure gameplay, removing ALL metagame knowledge and even going so far as to say wizards don't automatically know of the existance of every single spell ever made (yeah I know, crazy huh?) and that they would not abuse divinations, then a mid-high level monk might actually stand a chance against an equal level wizard. I actually know this is true, because I play with a group of people who play just to play, and usually do not even look through the books until it is time to level up. This has lead to the party fighter being BY FAR the most powerful character at lvl 10, in a party with both a wizard and a cleric.

[Emmerask]

A level 20 Monk with 40 or so points in use magic device (ranks +skill item + stats)
And a level 20 wbl will have a lot of scrolls with him from 1st to 9th level spells, also he will have payed a wizard to craft some contingent spells on him. With leadership feat it would become a completely different battle so I think it should not be included :smallwink:

So if we don´t assume the most stupid monk ever then I would say a 16th to 17th level well build wizard can beat the 20th level monk

[Tinydwarfman]

Completely misses the point. Spellcasters are designed with the idea that they have to ration out their magic over multiple encounters and varying situations. A spellcaster who a) gets to choose spells all for the purpose of winning a single duel; and b) doesn't need to worry about whether any particular spell might be better saved for the next encounter, has a gigantic advantage over a nonspellcaster.

I really can't imagine that not being obvious to anyone not in active denial.

No, I believe you are missing the point. If a wizard only expends 1/4 (or less in most cases) of his spells in an arena, he gets no advantage over a noncaster. In most arena matches, that is exactly what happens. One or two spells wins a match. The arena match is just one of a wizard's standard encounters in a day. Admittedly, all of his spells will be combat related, but that is no different from the monk putting points into tumble instead of diplomacy when in an arena. Now they are both focused for combat. So again I ask you, when has any decently high level wizard ever actually used more than 1/3 at most of his spells in an arena?

This doesn't even touch on the fact that wizard's are even more powerful in an open setting, so no, I don't think that arena matches are innately skewed towards casters.

EDIT: Also, this arena fight is equivalent CR for both contestants, so the wizard actually is completely justified in using all of his spells for the day. Two equal CR things should about evenly matched, expending all of their resources against each other.

[Another_Poet]

A 5th level Wizard has 5 minutes of Fly or Levitate. Heck, prepare 2 Levitate's and you have 10 minutes.

With appropriate WBL the 5th level Wizard can have a few wands, firing off save-or-lose's and waiting for the Monk to get a nat 1, or just spamming Magic Missiles.

What's that you say, the monk has piles of magic items? Well the Wizard can dispel the monk's flight item, keeping the aerial advantage. In 10 minutes he can even eat through the monk's Brooch of Shielding and mess him up with those magic missiles.

Protection from Arrows should keep the wizard in good shape against whatever ranged attacks the monk can put up.

I'd say Wiz5 has a good shot at it. (Edit: if he has the terrain advantage i.e., big open area where he can fly out of reach.)

[J.Gellert]

A 5th level Wizard has 5 minutes of Fly or Levitate. Heck, prepare 2 Levitate's and you have 10 minutes.

With appropriate WBL the 5th level Wizard can have a few wands, firing off save-or-lose's and waiting for the Monk to get a nat 1, or just spamming Magic Missiles.

What's that you say, the monk has piles of magic items? Well the Wizard can dispel the monk's flight item, keeping the aerial advantage. In 10 minutes he can even eat through the monk's Brooch of Shielding and mess him up with those magic missiles.

Protection from Arrows should keep the wizard in good shape against whatever ranged attacks the monk can put up.

I'd say Wiz5 has a good shot at it. (Edit: if he has the terrain advantage i.e., big open area where he can fly out of reach.)

You can't kill another person with a wand of magic missiles. He can get a wand of healing and trump you. And he has much more wealth remaining (Level 20 WBL, remember?) to get his own wands of missiles or whatever.

Monks suck because they have few useful abilities, no defined purpose, and MAD. The class can be used to make characters that will be no joke.

[Emmerask]

A 5th level Wizard has 5 minutes of Fly or Levitate. Heck, prepare 2 Levitate's and you have 10 minutes.

With appropriate WBL the 5th level Wizard can have a few wands, firing off save-or-lose's and waiting for the Monk to get a nat 1, or just spamming Magic Missiles.

What's that you say, the monk has piles of magic items? Well the Wizard can dispel the monk's flight item, keeping the aerial advantage. In 10 minutes he can even eat through the monk's Brooch of Shielding and mess him up with those magic missiles.

Protection from Arrows should keep the wizard in good shape against whatever ranged attacks the monk can put up.

I'd say Wiz5 has a good shot at it. (Edit: if he has the terrain advantage i.e., big open area where he can fly out of reach.)



What stops the monk from using a wand of magic missiles too? well the level 20 has so much money he won´t need a crappy magic missile wand when he can get a decent spell wand ^^
And a scroll of greater dispel magic to dispel everything the wizard has, all the while the level 5 wizard will be hard pressed to dispel all that much. The wiz first has to spot the greater invis monk who has true sight up and who shockingly used a scroll of flight or a graft to enable him to fly too.

And for good measure the monk can just gate a solar in with his gate scroll (which gates solars in etc) :smallwink:

A level 5 wizard will be utterly crushed by a level 20 whatever class even a commoner with that much money will crush a level 5...
Use magic device :smallwink:

/edit oh and protection from arrows only gives you damage reduction 10/magic (against range) a level 20 who uses a none magical bow would be pretty stupid indeed :smallwink:


You can't kill another person with a wand of magic missiles. He can get a wand of healing and trump you.

Or just use his scroll of Shield and be immune to magic missiles :smallbiggrin:

[Lans]

Yeah, I mentioned that the monk needs terrible con or the wizard needs a lucky roll, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Also, read on to find this guy doing 60d6 at level 6, that's 210 on average -10 from DR, making it 200. The monk has HP equal to 94+conx20 on average. So, a monk with a con mod equal to or not higher than +5, on average, should die. Yay. :smallbiggrin:
.
Combat Reflexes, a reach weapon and Side Step.

What stops a monk from climbing into a rope trick and killing the wizard? From what I read pretty much nothing.


Oh well, in that case, the wizard can consistently win at around level 5-6. When Fly becomes available. :smallwink:

You can get a fly speed with two or fewer feats, monks speed boost leaves it with equal speed.

[Tinydwarfman]

Combat Reflexes, a reach weapon and Side Step.

What stops a monk from climbing into a rope trick and killing the wizard? From what I read pretty much nothing.

He has to find it first, which is by no means an easy task. (Small invisible window into the astral plane) A lvl 20 monk could probably do it though.

[Lans]

He has to find it first, which is by no means an easy task. (Small invisible window into the astral plane) A lvl 20 monk could probably do it though.

Binding feats and flaws would let the monk do it at level 1. He would need to know the general area of the RT, but if he didn't know that the wizard wouldn't need RT.

RT doesn't give nearly the protection that people think it does, its better than nothing, but its no Mansion or personal plane.

[Lans]

A 5th level Wizard has 5 minutes of Fly or Levitate. Heck, prepare 2 Levitate's and you have 10 minutes.

With appropriate WBL the 5th level Wizard can have a few wands, firing off save-or-lose's and waiting for the Monk to get a nat 1, or just spamming Magic Missiles.
How is the wizard getting through 30 spell resistance? d20+5 level+4 penetration+1 trait, means the monk takes 10.5/20 a round with out other, resource dependent, ways to boost caster level. So in 200 minutes the monk takles 105 damage, likely leaving him with 10+20xcon hp, after 3 hours of the wizard shooting.


What's that you say, the monk has piles of magic items? Well the Wizard can dispel the monk's flight item, keeping the aerial advantage. In 10 minutes he can even eat through the monk's Brooch of Shielding and mess him up with those magic missiles.
So the wizard is reliably getting dispel checks of 25+ now?


Protection from Arrows should keep the wizard in good shape against whatever ranged attacks the monk can put up.

A magic bow?


I'd say Wiz5 has a good shot at it. (Edit: if he has the terrain advantage i.e., big open area where he can fly out of reach.)
No.

[Khellendross]

IF the monk has access to all books then a wizard isn't going to be able to do it till she has access to 8-9th spells. I've built monks that easily take teir 3 classes of equal level so I'll be fair and say 15th level for a wizard actually.

I know there is the whole sell your spellbook and buy scrolls of lesser planer binding to get a mirror mephit to get a simulacrum of a ifirit for infinite wishes at first level but even that is not guaranteed to work if the mephit makes it's two will saves.

[Tinydwarfman]

IF the monk has access to all books then a wizard isn't going to be able to do it till she has access to 8-9th spells. I've built monks that easily take teir 3 classes of equal level so I'll be fair and say 15th level for a wizard actually.

I know there is the whole sell your spellbook and buy scrolls of lesser planer binding to get a mirror mephit to get a simulacrum of a ifirit for infinite wishes at first level but even that is not guaranteed to work if the mephit makes it's two will saves.

O rly? I'd like to see this build (in all seriousness) that can compete with a warblade.

[Darklord Xavez]

If the shoe fits*









*kick the monk with it.

Repeatedly.

And then the monk hits you with a Quivering Palm 5 times in the same round, thanks to its Rapid Stunning feat. Make 5 DC 25 (about) in a row. Die if you fail any. What level of wizard can do that?
Supporting the actually often useful monk,
Darklord Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

And then the monk hits you with a Quivering Palm 5 times in the same round, thanks to its Rapid Stunning feat. Make 5 DC 25 (about) in a row. Die if you fail any. What level of wizard can do that?
Supporting the actually often useful monk,
Darklord Xavez

Beholder mage casting fort SoD 5 times - at range! :smalltongue: You did ask...

[Darklord Xavez]

Beholder mage casting fort SoD 5 times - at range! :smalltongue: You did ask...

SoD? Like grass? And let's not bring monster characters into this, it makes it too complicated.
-Xavez

[Khellendross]

O rly? I'd like to see this build (in all seriousness) that can compete with a warblade.

That shouldn't be a problem because I make high AC builds that a Warblade can't hit that does decent damage(not insane like other classes but 2d10+13+). Not to mention you'd need at least 6 attacks around to negate my auto dodges and with the right feats and prestige classes you can make attack, acx2, and dmg all off your wis reducing mad entirely.

As for the wizard fight another tactic is to make him sneaky with darkstalker and he can just sneak up to the wizard and stunning fist him and then bye bye wizard and with the mage slayer feat tree you'll ignore his mirror image and other miss change spells and debuff all his spells that give a bonus to AC.

[Kurald Galain]

And then the monk hits you with a Quivering Palm 5 times in the same round,

Quivering Palm works once per week. Good luck with that.

[Tinydwarfman]

SoD? Like grass? And let's not bring monster characters into this, it makes it too complicated.
-Xavez

Well, you were the one who took rapid stunning 4 times! :smalltongue: but really SoD = Save or Die.

Also, Quivering Palm 5 times? You control time or something?


That shouldn't be a problem because I make high AC builds that a Warblade can't hit that does decent damage(not insane like other classes but 2d10+13+). Not to mention you'd need at least 6 attacks around to negate my auto dodges and with the right feats and prestige classes you can make attack, acx2, and dmg all off your wis reducing mad entirely.

As for the wizard fight another tactic is to make him sneaky with darkstalker and he can just sneak up to the wizard and stunning fist him and then bye bye wizard and with the mage slayer feat tree you'll ignore his mirror image and other miss change spells and debuff all his spells that give a bonus to AC.

I am intrigued indeed. I would like to know the specifics, but you know what I would like more? To fight it! The last arena match I had lined up fizzled out before it began, and I had this lovely incantatrix all lined up... You interested?
Or for the monk vs. Warblade thing (although they're not my specialty) I would like to try that too. Would probably be more fun than monk vs wizard anyway.

[Darklord Xavez]

Well, you were the one who took rapid stunning 4 times! :smalltongue: but really SoD = Save or Die.

Also, Quivering Palm 5 times? You control time or something?

Rapid Stunning need only be taken once. Also, Quivering Palm is just like a normal stunning attack. If it's a standard action, you still have to make a nearly impossible fortitude save (for a wizard anyways) and have no time to cast anything in response if the monk just has you die. And then he uses Abundant Step to escape.
-Xavez

[Gametime]

No, I believe you are missing the point. If a wizard only expends 1/4 (or less in most cases) of his spells in an arena, he gets no advantage over a noncaster. In most arena matches, that is exactly what happens. One or two spells wins a match. The arena match is just one of a wizard's standard encounters in a day. Admittedly, all of his spells will be combat related, but that is no different from the monk putting points into tumble instead of diplomacy when in an arena. Now they are both focused for combat. So again I ask you, when has any decently high level wizard ever actually used more than 1/3 at most of his spells in an arena?

This doesn't even touch on the fact that wizard's are even more powerful in an open setting, so no, I don't think that arena matches are innately skewed towards casters.

EDIT: Also, this arena fight is equivalent CR for both contestants, so the wizard actually is completely justified in using all of his spells for the day. Two equal CR things should about evenly matched, expending all of their resources against each other.

Actually, he's right to some extent. Spellcasters can tailor their choices in an arena setting much more than non-casters. The monk can choose skills, feats, and items based on the arena setting - but so can the wizard, and he gets to pick all his spells based on that too.

However, this doesn't demonstrate that arena matches are unfair. What it does demonstrate is exactly why wizards are better than monks (and nearly every other class in the game): They can change their entire list of abilities, every day, at the cost of eight hours of rest and one of preparation. Does this give them an edge in arenas? Of course! It also gives them an edge in every other conceivable situation.

Arenas favor wizards because everything favors the class that can reshape itself on the fly.

[Prodan]

[QUOTE=Darklord Xavez;8802150]If it's a standard action, you still have to make a nearly impossible fortitude save (for a wizard anyways) QUOTE]

I would like to challenge this assumption; MAD does not help the DC, and wizards often have many ways of boosting their saves.

[Darklord Xavez]

[QUOTE=Darklord Xavez;8802150]If it's a standard action, you still have to make a nearly impossible fortitude save (for a wizard anyways) QUOTE]

I would like to challenge this assumption; MAD does not help the DC, and wizards often have many ways of boosting their saves.

MAD? I said 25 because of the monk's wisdom, which would be boosted by magic items.
-Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

Rapid Stunning need only be taken once. Also, Quivering Palm is just like a normal stunning attack. If it's a standard action, you still have to make a nearly impossible fortitude save (for a wizard anyways) and have no time to cast anything in response if the monk just has you die. And then he uses Abundant Step to escape.
-Xavez

Ok, a few things:

Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a week, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll.


Benefit: You may use one additional stunning attack per round

Abundant Step is a Standard action.

If you can hit the wizard, you've already won. Damage can be optimized so that the wizard will never be able to survive a single hit. The problem is touching him.

[Gametime]

Rapid Stunning need only be taken once. Also, Quivering Palm is just like a normal stunning attack. If it's a standard action, you still have to make a nearly impossible fortitude save (for a wizard anyways) and have no time to cast anything in response if the monk just has you die. And then he uses Abundant Step to escape.
-Xavez

Rapid Stunning 1) only affects stunning fist or another special attack that uses your stunning fist attempts (and Quivering Palm does not); and 2) only adds one additional attempt per round, not unlimited.


Quivering Palm (Su)

Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a week, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll.

It is true that a level one wizard is almost guaranteed to fail the saving throw. A wizard of equivalent level, however, has a very high chance of success and an even higher chance of being very difficult to hit in the first place.

Also, the wizard has save-or-dies too, from an earlier level, that can be used multiple times per day instead of once per week. Since the wizard can focus on intelligence more than the monk can on wisdom, he's also going to have higher DC's. He also has access to more teleporting than the monk, who can only do it once per day, and can set it up to be done with no action (ah, Contingency, is there anything you can't solve?).

[Another_Poet]

Okay, I admit, with the kind of monks you guys are building, my wiz5 would fail.

I respect you optimizers but also have a sort of shocked awe. I think a standard monk20 who is expecting to do monk-like things (rather than being built & geared for solo-fighting a wizard) is going to have a hard time with a flying, buffed wiz5 spamming save-or-lose spells from a wand.

I was thinking of the wizard more like a hit man (I need to go kill this monk...) and the monk more like an unassuming target (I guess I'll go run up some walls and Flurry at things while my whole party backs me up! Good thing I never have to solo any wizards!) which I admit puts an unfair advantage on the wizard's side. In an arena fight with purpose-optimized characters, the estimates that other posters made (level 15+) seem more realistic.

ap

[Darklord Xavez]

Ok, a few things:




Abundant Step is a Standard action.

If you can hit the wizard, you've already won. Damage can be optimized so that the wizard will never be able to survive a single hit. The problem is touching him.

Take Sun Style (Complete Warrior) and Abundant Step to the wizard (catch him flat-footed), so you can hit him easily. Once he dies, you can Abundant Step away again.
-Xavez

[Darklord Xavez]

It's pointless to argue about something that would never happen. There is no such thing as a class and level system in real life, everybod knows that the world runs on its own rules. Rules that make sense.
-Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

It's pointless to argue about something that would never happen. There is no such thing as a class and level system in real life, everybod knows that the world runs on its own rules. Rules that make sense.
-Xavez

What are you talking about "never happens?" I just challenged Khellendross to a duel you know! I believe that constitutes as "happening" :smallbiggrin:

[Darklord Xavez]

What are you talking about "never happens?" I just challenged Khellendross to a duel you know! I believe that constitutes as "happening" :smallbiggrin:

There would never be a 20th level monk or 20th level wizard, due to the fact that:

There is no magic in real life;
You cannot "teleport";
People's health is not based on hit points and save bonuses;
and nothing that actually physically happens (i.e. a frog eating a fly) is based on rolling dice.

I win.
-Xavez

[Prodan]

MAD?
Take a guess.


I said 25 because of the monk's wisdom, which would be boosted by magic items.


Wizard, level 15-20 ish

14 Con to start +6 item of Con +4 tome = 24 Con (+7 modifier)
+6 from class levels
+6 from a Cloak of Resistance
+1 Luckstone
+1 Pale Green Ioun Stone

Total save: +21

The save goes down for a lower level wizard... but it's still going to be far from "impossible" to make a DC 25 fort save.

[Darklord Xavez]

Take a guess.

The magazine?
-Xavez

[Mystic Muse]

And then the monk hits you with a Quivering Palm 5 times in the same round, thanks to its Rapid Stunning feat. Make 5 DC 25 (about) in a row. Die if you fail any. What level of wizard can do that?
Supporting the actually often useful monk,
Darklord Xavez

Quivering Palm can only be used once per week. Given that, a level 7 wizard can use an SOD as well. Maybe not DC 25 but your Monk could still fail.

[Darklord Xavez]

Quivering Palm can only be used once per week. Given that, a level 7 wizard can use an SOD as well. Maybe not DC 25 but your Monk could still fail.

I just changed my opinions, in case you didn't see. There is no class/level system, DC, Quivering Palm, or saves in real life. Not to mention magic, hit points, hit dice, attack rolls, skill checks, armor class, or spell levels.
-Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

There would never be a 20th level monk or 20th level wizard, due to the fact that:

There is no magic in real life;
You cannot "teleport";
People's health is not based on hit points and save bonuses;
and nothing that actually physically happens (i.e. a frog eating a fly) is based on rolling dice.

I win.
-Xavez

lolwut? Just because you don't think these things are real doesn't mean that they aren't. The entire world is a lie! Don't believe these so called 'scientists' and their 'facts'!Also, D&D forum! Why are you even here at all talking about make believe stuff? If your answer to everything is "this isn't real! I win!" then you are the worst debater I have ever seen.

[Prodan]

lolwut? Just because you don't think these things are real doesn't mean that they aren't. The entire world is a lie! Don't believe these so called 'scientists' and their 'facts'!
Also, D&D forum! Why are you even here at all talking about make believe stuff

You have to feel the truth. With your gut.

[Darklord Xavez]

lolwut? Just because you don't think these things are real doesn't mean that they aren't. The entire world is a lie! Don't believe these so called 'scientists' and their 'facts'!
Also, D&D forum! Why are you even here at all talking about make believe stuff

The cake is a lie.:smallbiggrin:
-Xavez

[Prodan]

The magazine?
-Xavez

Not interested in the part where I pointed out a fortitude save of +21 is possible for a high level wizard?

[Tinydwarfman]

You have to feel the truth. With your gut.

The reason monks suck is because they use logic to try and fight. Wizards are awesome because they embrace truthiness and substitute the monk's reality with their own!

[Darklord Xavez]

Not interested in the part where I pointed out a fortitude save of +21 is possible for a high level wizard?

Nope. Because there are no wizards, no saves, and also no levels.
-Xavez

[Lycanthromancer]

Nope. Because there are no wizards, no saves, and also no levels.
-XavezThere is no spoon.

Have fun with that spoony bard of yours, then.

[Darklord Xavez]

There is no spoon.

Have fun with that spoony bard of yours, then.

What's a bard? I've never heard of a bard before. Please explain.
-Xavez
-Xavez

[Tinydwarfman]

Nope. Because there are no wizards, no saves, and also no levels.
-Xavez

Seriously? That's even worse than those people who say "Katanas should be awesome because they can cut tanks in half yo!" You just stated something completely unrelated to the question and said "this is why I'm right".


What's a bard? I've never heard of a bard before. Please explain.
-Xavez
-Xavez

Read a dictionary. Or the SRD. Both have good definitions of a bard, but the SRD is more accurate.

[Prodan]

I do beleive that he is being deliberate.

[Emmerask]

Okay, I admit, with the kind of monks you guys are building, my wiz5 would fail.

I respect you optimizers but also have a sort of shocked awe. I think a standard monk20 who is expecting to do monk-like things (rather than being built & geared for solo-fighting a wizard) is going to have a hard time with a flying, buffed wiz5 spamming save-or-lose spells from a wand.

I was thinking of the wizard more like a hit man (I need to go kill this monk...) and the monk more like an unassuming target (I guess I'll go run up some walls and Flurry at things while my whole party backs me up! Good thing I never have to solo any wizards!) which I admit puts an unfair advantage on the wizard's side. In an arena fight with purpose-optimized characters, the estimates that other posters made (level 15+) seem more realistic.

ap


Well, okay some of the stuff was a bit over the top and specifically geared to that end I admit ^^
But I think a 20th level char will have atleast one method of flying (be it a graft or magic item), invisibility I do consider a standard issue too (scroll or ring of invis etc) and also something to see invisible creatures (true sight item) otherwise I would really wonder how the monk actually hit level 20 :smalltongue:

So an invisible flying level 20 monk approaches the level 5 wizard without his knowledge one hit will be enough to kill or stun the wizard (the subsequent fall will do the rest) :smallwink:

[Darklord Xavez]

I do beleive that he is being deliberate.

And I am. Thank you for removing the "vulnerable to fire and acid damage" bit, I just realized why you said it and was quite insulted. You are forgiven... this time.


Seriously? That's even worse than those people who say "Katanas should be awesome because they can cut tanks in half yo!" You just stated something completely unrelated to the question and said "this is why I'm right".

Actually, I'm not interested because since it doesn't really exist, it doesn't matter to me.


Read a dictionary.

psst! It was a joke!
-Xavez

[Khellendross]

I am intrigued indeed. I would like to know the specifics, but you know what I would like more? To fight it! The last arena match I had lined up fizzled out before it began, and I had this lovely incantatrix all lined up... You interested?
Or for the monk vs. Warblade thing (although they're not my specialty) I would like to try that too. Would probably be more fun than monk vs wizard anyway.

Np, though I've never done an arena fight on the boards or point by. My DM always uses a stat array of 18 18 16 14 12 10.

Basically the build goes like this and this isn't just for the warblade but the wizard as well since it's likely to summon melee monsters to keep you busy.

Take monk to start with and then two levels of paladin. It helps with saves Or wisx2 to AC. Normally it's CHA to saves but the Dragon Compendium has a feat called Serenity. It keys your paladin abilities off of wisdom. There is an alternate class feature that subs the save boost for an AC boost and it gives you +2 to your BAB. Then go back into monk till you can become a Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures. The first level ability is No Thought (Ex): Shiba protectors add their Wisdom modifier,if positive, to their attack and damage rolls. Now you're getting your Wis to to AC twice and dex and you're getting your str/wis to attack and damage or just Wis so you can just focus on con, dex, wis but mainly dex and wis. Next all you have to do is take the feats combat reflexes, martial study twice and martial stance to get shifting defense and couple that with Robilar’s Gambit and each time you attack me i as an immediate action shift 5' and get and AoO on you. No way to hit me unless I run out of AoO which is based on my high dex and about 12 of them at level 20. Also take elusive target so that I can negate any power attack you have. You now have a monk that is hard to hit and even if you get past his shifting defense you have to hit his high ac.

The warblade won't touch the monk and the wizard will have a hard time against him as well till it gets to a certain level.

[Tinydwarfman]

Np, though I've never done an arena fight on the boards or point by. My DM always uses a stat array of 18 18 16 14 12 10.

Basically the build goes like this and this isn't just for the warblade but the wizard as well since it's likely to summon melee monsters to keep you busy.

Take monk to start with and then two levels of paladin. It helps with saves Or wisx2 to AC. Normally it's CHA to saves but the Dragon Compendium has a feat called Serenity. It keys your paladin abilities off of wisdom. There is an alternate class feature that subs the save boost for an AC boost and it gives you +2 to your BAB. Then go back into monk till you can become a Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures. The first level ability is No Thought (Ex): Shiba protectors add their Wisdom modifier,if positive, to their attack and damage rolls. Now you're getting your Wis to to AC twice and dex and you're getting your str/wis to attack and damage or just Wis so you can just focus on con, dex, wis but mainly dex and wis. Next all you have to do is take the feats combat expertise, martial study twice and martial stance to get shifting defense and couple that with Robilar’s ambit and each time you attack me i as an immediate action shift 5' and get and AoO on you. No way to hit me unless I run out of AoO which is based on my high dex and about 12 of them at level 20. Also take elusive target so that I can negate any power attack you have. You now have a monk that is hard to hit and even if you get past his shifting defense you have to hit his high ac.

The warblade won't touch the monk and the wizard will have a hard time against him as well till it gets to a certain level.

Whoa there, don't tell me your entire build! Now I can't help but subconsciously use that metagame knowledge! I would still be willing to face you, if you're up for it though.

[Prodan]

Don't do it, it's a trap! He's probably pumping you full of misinformation.

[Tinydwarfman]

Actually, I'm not interested because since it doesn't really exist, it doesn't matter to me.
Since you're not interested, and it doesn't matter to you, why do you keep posting here?



psst! It was a joke!
-Xavez

I do realize.

[Mystic Muse]

Actually, I'm not interested because since it doesn't really exist, it doesn't matter to me.


Doesn't it seem kind of odd to enter a thread just to argue something, then when your arguements are refuted to tell people it's pointless to argue something because it doesn't really exist and it doesn't matter to you?

EDIT: Swordsaged!

[Khellendross]

Whoa there, don't tell me your entire build! Now I can't help but subconsciously use that metagame knowledge! I would still be willing to face you, if you're up for it though.

I told you because I've never done a full arena fight before and busy at the moment expect the quick post. Besides I'm an honest person and you just know the build not what magics or items he has to add to that build.

[Prodan]

Doesn't it seem kind of odd to enter a thread just to tell people it's pointless to argue something because it doesn't really exist and it doesn't matter to you?

And after having proposed ideas about it, calculated numbers for it, asked for other people's input on the scenario you envisioned...

[Tinydwarfman]

Don't do it, it's a trap! He's probably pumping you full of misinformation.

Even if he is, I highly doubt he can win. 12 dodges? Ha! This number pales besides my 24 attacks!


I told you because I've never done a full arena fight before and busy at the moment expect the quick post. Besides I'm an honest person and you just know the build not what magics or items he has to add to that build.

Should I tell you my build? To be fair?

[Khellendross]

Even if he is, I highly doubt he can win. 12 dodges? Ha! This number pales besides my 24 attacks!

How you gonna get 24 attacks if I 5'step out of your reach?

[Mystic Muse]

And after having proposed ideas about it, calculated numbers for it, asked for other people's input on the scenario you envisioned...

Okay, maybe I should have put that in, but the point remains. If all you're going to say after people refute your arguments is "It doesn't matter to me because none of it exists. I win" then why are you arguing in the first place?

[Lycanthromancer]

Okay, maybe I should have put that in, but the point remains. If all you're going to say after people refute your arguments is "It doesn't matter to me because none of it exists. I win" then why are you arguing in the first place?That behavior is suspiciously similar to the Greater Playground Troll, native to The Great Land of URL.

[Tinydwarfman]

How you gonna get 24 attacks if I 5'step out of your reach?

Who said a 5' step goes out of my reach? :smallwink:

Also, shifting defense only works if I miss you...

[Kurald Galain]

Basically the build goes like this and this isn't just for the warblade but the wizard as well since it's likely to summon melee monsters to keep you busy.
That is an interesting build, but it strikes me as somewhat problematic. First, once you multiclass out of Monk, you can't multiclass back into it. Second, I'm reasonably sure that two instances of "wisdom to AC" don't stack, although it depends on the wording of course. Third, I've never heard of any class with BAB greater than its level, even with ACFs. Fourth, shifting defense only triggers if the enemy misses you. And fifth, your combo doesn't help against reach weapons, missile attacks, spells that don't grant an attack roll, or True Strike.

[Khellendross]

Who said a 5' step goes out of my reach? :smallwink:

Also, shifting defense only works if I miss you...

Shifting defense is auto it's the Gambit thats if you miss me and even if you have reach I just take another 5'step back with your 2nd attack. Unless you have a 60'reach with a melee weapon you don't stand much of a change of getting past it and if you do then you have to hit a really high AC. I would be interested to see the build though cause I always like seeing people beat my builds so I can make mine stronger.

[Khellendross]

]Shifting defense is auto it's the Gambit thats if you miss me and even if you have reach I just take another 5'step back with your 2nd attack. Unless you have a 60'reach with a melee weapon you don't stand much of a change of getting past it and if you do then you have to hit a really high AC. I would be interested to see the build though cause I always like seeing people beat my builds so I can make mine stronger.


That is an interesting build, but it strikes me as somewhat problematic. First, once you multiclass out of Monk, you can't multiclass back into it. Second, I'm reasonably sure that two instances of "wisdom to AC" don't stack, although it depends on the wording of course. Third, I've never heard of any class with BAB greater than its level, even with ACFs. Fourth, shifting defense only triggers if the enemy misses you. And fifth, your combo doesn't help against reach weapons, missile attacks, spells that don't grant an attack roll, or True Strike.

You're right I need to make it so that paladin is the 19th and 20th level or find a way that allows you to go back into monk. I know there are feats like that. Also it says attacks not melee attacks so ranged still would have some trouble. As for auto hit spells that is a problem which is where 20th level equipment comes into play


Sorry didn't mean to double post. Thought I hit edit.

[Tinydwarfman]

Shifting defense is auto it's the Gambit thats if you miss me and even if you have reach I just take another 5'step back with your 2nd attack. Unless you have a 60'reach with a melee weapon you don't stand much of a change of getting past it and if you do then you have to hit a really high AC. I would be interested to see the build though cause I always like seeing people beat my builds so I can make mine stronger.

If you want to play purely by RAW, then yes, by one interpretation (by saying that the first two paragraphs are flavor) shifting defense does let you spend an AoO to dodge any attack instantly. However, the clear intent, and also RAW IMO say that the attacker needs to miss.

Feat text:
Your ability to read your opponents’
moves and use their strength against
them allows you to shift your position
during a battle. Each failed attack gives
you the split-second you need to move
without drawing attacks.
While you are in this stance, you can
make an immediate 5-foot step each
time an opponent attacks you. Moving
in this manner consumes one of your
attacks of opportunity in the currrent
round. You cannot move in this manner
if you have no attacks of opportunity
remaining. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity.

If you want to play strictly by RAW, I can drown myself while we fight, but I think intent is pretty clear here.

[Darklord Xavez]

Since you're not interested, and it doesn't matter to you, why do you keep posting here?



I do realize.

Why do I keep posting here? Because it amuses me.
-Xavez

[tyckspoon]

How you gonna get 24 attacks if I 5'step out of your reach?

Oh hai trip attack. Also Thicket of Blades. Also outreaching you. Also Covering Strike and Dousing the Flames to prevent your ability to use AoO at all. If the Warblade can land a hit on you, he can cut off your tactic easily. They're also reasonably good at counter-attack builds as well, thanks to their Int-to-AoO features, so if you happen to run up against a Warblade who also uses Robilar's/Karmic Strike.. well, I'm pretty sure his AoO hit harder than yours, and if you want to avoid his counterstrikes you'll risk 5-foot dancing away your own ability to attack.

[Tinydwarfman]

Why do I keep posting here? Because it amuses me.
-Xavez

So basically you're saying that what the previous posters said about you was true?

[Khellendross]

While you are in this stance, you can
make an immediate 5-foot step each
time an opponent attacks you. Moving
in this manner consumes one of your
attacks of opportunity in the currrent
round. You cannot move in this manner
if you have no attacks of opportunity
remaining. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity

This is the mechanic of the stance. The above part is flavor text and has no barring on how the power truly works. So you don't have to miss me. It's an immediate action which goes before the attack. That is RAW. The Gambit you're right you have to miss me and since me moving out of your way is a miss then I get an AoO myself if I so choose with a reach weapon myself or throwing daggers.


Oh hai trip attack. Also Thicket of Blades. Also outreaching you. Also Covering Strike and Dousing the Flames to prevent your ability to use AoO at all. If the Warblade can land a hit on you, he can cut off your tactic easily. They're also reasonably good at counter-attack builds as well, thanks to their Int-to-AoO features, so if you happen to run up against a Warblade who also uses Robilar's/Karmic Strike.. well, I'm pretty sure his AoO hit harder than yours, and if you want to avoid his counterstrikes you'll risk 5-foot dancing away your own ability to attack.

Good luck hitting someone with that kind of AC for the trip or hitting him at all to stop the auto 5'step. It's possible but not likley and if he is also doing Robilar's then it's just a stalemate where the stare at each other.

[Darklord Xavez]

So basically you're saying that what the previous posters said about you was right?

It depends: What did they say about me?
-Xavez

[Prodan]

It depends: What did they say about me?
-Xavez
The general gist of it is, from what I can tell, that people think you are irritating people for personal enjoyment.

[Tinydwarfman]

This is the mechanic of the stance. The above part is flavor text and has no barring on how the power truly works. So you don't have to miss me. It's an immediate action which goes before the attack. That is RAW. The Gambit you're right you have to miss me and since me moving out of your way is a miss then I get an AoO myself if I so choose with a reach weapon myself or throwing daggers.

So you're saying you don't mind playing a completely RAW game? Alright. Get ready to fight against someone who can't take damage.

[Darklord Xavez]

The general gist of it is, from what I can tell, that people think you are irritating people for personal enjoyment.

No I am not. I am not a troll, which is what you are implying. Now go back to your fun.
-Xavez

[Prodan]

No I am not. I am not a troll, which is what you are implying. Now go back to your fun.
-Xavez

What's a troll?

[Khellendross]

So you're saying you don't mind playing a completely RAW game? Alright. Get ready to fight against someone who can't take damage.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm just saying I can take out most Warblades with my build. I'm not saying it's not possible to take me out but that it's really hard. As for RAW, that is what I was using but I also know RAW can get further "cheese" than what even I did. I can also make it to so that I'm immune to damage but whats the point?

Anyways we are way off topic so if you want you can personal message me but I think a Wizard would need to be mid like 15th level ish+ to take a 20th level monk since he does have 20th level money and more levels to tinker with.

[Kurald Galain]

This is the mechanic of the stance. The above part is flavor text and has no barring on how the power truly works. So you don't have to miss me. It's an immediate action which goes before the attack.
Well, if you want to get technical about it, then (1) the stance doesn't specify that it goes before the attack, so logically it would go after it, and (2) you get only a single immediate action per turn.


Good luck hitting someone with that kind of AC
How high is your AC, exactly?

[Khellendross]

Well, if you want to get technical about it, then (1) the stance doesn't specify that it goes before the attack, so logically it would go after it, and (2) you get only a single immediate action per turn.


How high is your AC, exactly?

You use an AoO to dodge and it's an immediate action to use so you'd be able to get more than one dodge if you have more than one AoO which you do with combat reflexes. So Technically it does work and immediate actions can go before an attack.

As for the Ac if using the stat array that I talked about the AC is=i 2x wis+dex+10 which would be 43 with a 34 wis and a 28 dex and then add in protection rings and other items that raise AC so 43+.

[tyckspoon]

Good luck hitting someone with that kind of AC for the trip or hitting him at all to stop the auto 5'step. It's possible but not likley and if he is also doing Robilar's then it's just a stalemate where the stare at each other.

You haven't mentioned what the AC you reach actually is, but I suspect it's not as untouchable as you think, especially since a lot of what the Warblade will be doing is running off his highest BAB attack and he doesn't care all that much if his iteratives miss or he doesn't even take them.

mm.. granting that your various Wis-to-AC abilities do all stack, you probably get.. 60? 65-ish? Maybe 50 touch?

Also, on doublechecking Robilar's, you have a problem: The opportunity it grants explicitly resolves *after* the enemy attack that sets it off. If you're subbing Shifting Defenses for that, you'll still move after you've been attacked.

Your feats are also really topheavy on the second half of the build. Without real Tome of Battle levels, you need to be level 18 (IL 9 for a level 5 stance) to take Shifting Defense... you know, this'd work a lot better for you with the Unarmed version Swordsage.

[Flickerdart]

You use an AoO to dodge and it's an immediate action to use so you'd be able to get more than one dodge if you have more than one AoO which you do with combat reflexes. So Technically it does work and immediate actions can go before an attack.
The feat does not grant you immediate actions. You can still only take one per turn.

[Tinydwarfman]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm just saying I can take out most Warblades with my build. I'm not saying it's not possible to take me out but that it's really hard. As for RAW, that is what I was using but I also know RAW can get further "cheese" than what even I did. I can also make it to so that I'm immune to damage but whats the point?

Anyways we are way off topic so if you want you can personal message me but I think a Wizard would need to be mid like 15th level ish+ to take a 20th level monk since he does have 20th level money and more levels to tinker with.

Yeah, I can wipe out all Warblades as Pun-Pun, but what's the point? Would you ever allow that to be used in one of your games? How bout healing by drowning? 'Cos they're pretty much the same thing. Please be reasonable in making your character.

Sure. Even better, here's the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8802914#post8802914) we'll use.

[OracleofWuffing]

You use an AoO to dodge and it's an immediate action to use so you'd be able to get more than one dodge if you have more than one AoO which you do with combat reflexes. So Technically it does work and immediate actions can go before an attack.
You use your immediate action to deduct one AoO and dodge. You need to have both, a free immediate and an AoO to dodge.

I got swordsage'd on this, right?

[Mystic Muse]

No I am not. I am not a troll, which is what you are implying. Now go back to your fun.
-Xavez

I will. But can you please stop saying "None of this exists so it's pointless"? If you have something to contribute to the conversation, by all means do it. However, please don't be the "Stop having fun" guy.

[Khellendross]

Well yeah a swordsage could do this better but his ac would be less but the swordsage would get a ton more tricks up his sleeve at the same time but the post was on monks vs wizards and now we have really derailed lol.

[Tinydwarfman]

Well yeah a swordsage could do this better but his ac would be less but the swordsage would get a ton more tricks up his sleeve at the same time but the post was on monks vs wizards and now we have really derailed lol.

Indeed! You should come to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8802914#post8802914) thread to discuss it!

[Kurald Galain]

immediate actions can go before an attack.
"make an immediate 5-foot step each time an opponent attacks you" does not specify that you can take this immediate "in reaction" to your opponent to invalidate his action. Neither do the rules on immediate actions specify this. This kind of reverse reactionary abilities tend not to exist in games other than Magic: the Gathering.



As for the Ac if using the stat array that I talked about the AC is=i 2x wis+dex+10 which would be 43 with a 34 wis and a 28 dex and then add in protection rings and other items that raise AC so 43+.
That's.. quite high. 18 + 5 for level + 6 for gear = 29. Owl's Wisdom doesn't stack with the gear. You're going to spend fifteen wishes on this one? Fifteen more on dexterity?

[Tinydwarfman]

"make an immediate 5-foot step each time an opponent attacks you" does not specify that you can take this immediate "in reaction" to your opponent to invalidate his action. Neither do the rules on immediate actions specify this. This kind of reverse reactionary abilities tend not to exist in games other than Magic: the Gathering.


That's.. quite high. 18 + 5 for level + 6 for gear = 29. Owl's Wisdom doesn't stack with the gear. You're going to spend fifteen wishes on this one? Fifteen more on dexterity?

Remember +5 for tomes. He also uses a very high stat array remember?

[Emmerask]

Why only +6 enh bonus if you can have anything from +1 to +12 ?

[Kurald Galain]

Remember +5 for tomes. He also uses a very high stat array remember?

Okay. Still, that amount of wealth is only available from level 18, and eats half the WBL at level 20. Is this build at all impressive below level 12 or so? Bearing in mind that most campaigns end before or around the level 12 point?

[Tinydwarfman]

Okay. Still, that amount of wealth is only available from level 18, and eats half the WBL at level 20. Is this build at all impressive below level 12 or so? Bearing in mind that most campaigns end before or around the level 12 point?

Yeah, it's a lot, but if he want's to spend it he can.


Why only +6 enh bonus if you can have anything from +1 to +12 ?

Because +8 and above are Epic.

[Emmerask]

I may be wrong but I haven´t seen a restriction that none 21st level chars can´t use or buy epic level items, so if he wants to spend his wbl on it he might do so ^^

[Choco]

I may be wrong but I haven´t seen a restriction that none 21st level chars can´t use or buy epic level items, so if he wants to spend his wbl on it he might do so ^^

Because the price shoots so high up with epic items that it is not worth it for any non-epic character.

[tyckspoon]

Okay. Still, that amount of wealth is only available from level 18, and eats half the WBL at level 20. Is this build at all impressive below level 12 or so? Bearing in mind that most campaigns end before or around the level 12 point?

It can't even take Shifting Defense by way of Martial Stance until level 18 due to the initiator level requirement, and Robby's Counterstrike Trick requires BAB 12, so on a Monk base you're looking at level 15 for that. So.. not really. The trick as presented is strictly end-game; before that it looks basically like a reduced-MAD Monk, which is nothing special.


I may be wrong but I haven´t seen a restriction that none 21st level chars can´t use or buy epic level items, so if he wants to spend his wbl on it he might do so ^^

Epic items cost x10 more. If you are actually playing with infinite wealth tricks (and the ability to buy epic items for mere gold) or Wishes that can create any magic item for free, then yes, a non-Epic character can get them. Otherwise, you can buy a +8 Enhancement item if you don't mind it being very nearly the only piece of magical gear you own. At level 20.

[Mystic Muse]

Because the price shoots so high up with epic items that it is not worth it for any non-epic character.

How much would a +12 item cost? I know according to normal rules it'd cost 144,000 but I don't know the rules for epic items.

[Lhurgyof]

That shouldn't be a problem because I make high AC builds that a Warblade can't hit that does decent damage(not insane like other classes but 2d10+13+). Not to mention you'd need at least 6 attacks around to negate my auto dodges and with the right feats and prestige classes you can make attack, acx2, and dmg all off your wis reducing mad entirely.

As for the wizard fight another tactic is to make him sneaky with darkstalker and he can just sneak up to the wizard and stunning fist him and then bye bye wizard and with the mage slayer feat tree you'll ignore his mirror image and other miss change spells and debuff all his spells that give a bonus to AC.

Don't forget to mention a necklace of natural attacks greater dispelling or impedence. Never leave home without one. xD

[Emmerask]

How much would a +12 item cost? I know according to normal rules it'd cost 144,000 but I don't know the rules for epic items.

I don´t know if its in the ogl so I keep it vague, it will be in the one million++ range :smallwink:

/edit

ah it actually is in the srd so:
Periapt of Epic Wisdom
Market Price: 640,000 gp (+8), 1,000,000 gp (+10), 1,440,000 gp (+12)

[Mystic Muse]

I don´t know if its in the ogl so I keep it vague, it will be in the one million++ range :smallwink:

Wow.

Okay, thanks for the info. Knowing it's higher than level 20 WBL is enough.

[Gametime]

You use an AoO to dodge and it's an immediate action to use so you'd be able to get more than one dodge if you have more than one AoO which you do with combat reflexes. So Technically it does work and immediate actions can go before an attack.



Except it isn't an immediate action. The word "immediate" is used here in the colloquial sense, as evidenced by the fact that the word "action" does not follow it. It would make no sense for an ability tied to attacks of opportunity (which take no action) to require an immediate action to use, since those are limited to 1/round.

[Kurald Galain]

Except it isn't an immediate action. The word "immediate" is used here in the colloquial sense, as evidenced by the fact that the word "action" does not follow it. It would make no sense for an ability tied to attacks of opportunity (which take no action) to require an immediate action to use, since those are limited to 1/round.
Well, if you put it like that - it also makes no sense for an ability that clearly specifies it only works when an enemy misses you, to also work when that enemy hits you.

In other words, by a strict reading of RAW, Khell's interpretation is incorrect; but by a commonsensical reading of the rules, Khell's interpretation is also incorrect. Either way, this trick fails (even aside from the fact that it doesn't work against ranged or reach weapons, or spells).

[OracleofWuffing]

In other words, by a strict reading of RAW, Khell's interpretation is incorrect; but by a commonsensical reading of the rules, Khell's interpretation is also incorrect

This sounds like a job for the Tome of Battle Errata!

:smallfrown:

[Tinydwarfman]

This sounds like a job for the Tome of Battle Errata!

:smallfrown:

I share your pain. And top it with a big frowny face! :frown:

[Tavar]

Hello. I'm apparently going to be DM'ing the match, so therefore need to rule on shifting defense. So far, I'm of the opinion that the first paragraph is fluff(same as pretty much every other maneuver). The second paragraph is inconclusive in regards to needing the attack to miss, but since it doesn't state that it happens before the attack connects, it defaults to occurring after the attack connects. Currently, I'm saying that it doesn't require a missed attack, though.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Does the feat make it so you can take more than one five foot step each round? Or is the character still restricted to one such adjustment (and the inability to move in the same round they make one)?

EDIT: And the wizard would only have to be level 5, maybe 6 or 7 to be on the safe side, but this is mainly for purposes of WBL. Then they buy a few scrolls of love's pain and one of mindrape for the following interaction:


Love's Pain, from BoVD. It doesn't allow SR/saves on the person it damages, and there's no limit on the distance between the two of you. Just Mindrape someone to be the lover, and long distance nuke away.


to explain further.
Love's pain is a spell that is cast on Person A, who loves person B. Casting it on person A harms person B, no saves, no distance limits, no nothing. Just damage.
Mindrape makes you know everything that the target knows and everything about them, and rewrite their memories, skill, personality, etc as you wish. Find a random peasant, cast mindrape on them to love the target you wish kill, then cast love's pain said peasant. If you are nice, follow it by casting mindrape again to make them forget it ever happened and stop loving that person.

You'd probably also want a way to cure ability damage, but that shouldn't be too hard.