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Tanuki Tales
2010-06-27, 06:01 PM
Are there any sources other than the Monster Manual and Manual of the Planes that go into any kind of depth on this chaotic race of murderous extraplanar toads? (Even if they're third party, an article in Dragon Magazine or from a different edition)

Aeromyre
2010-06-27, 06:29 PM
Are there any sources other than the Monster Manual and Manual of the Planes that go into any kind of depth on this chaotic race of murderous extraplanar toads? (Even if they're third party, an article in Dragon Magazine or from a different edition)

Well I wikipedia'd it and found this

"Another new slaad lord, Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer, first appeared in Dungeon #101 (August 2003). Bazim-Gorag later appeared in the Forgotten Realms book, Champions of Ruin (2005)."

Also you may want to look in a epic level book with monsters, they may appear there as well

*.*.*.*
2010-06-27, 06:31 PM
Also you may want to look in a epic level book with monsters, they may appear there as well

White and black, they should be in the srd

Fiend Folio has the Mud Slaad

The Mentalist
2010-06-27, 06:39 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92837

The only source for them I've found useful myself.

Eldan
2010-06-27, 06:39 PM
Would be difficult to get, but:

Planescape Monstrous Compendium and Planes of Chaos. Also, the books on fiends are partially written by Xanxost the Slaad, one of the greatest authors and investigators to ever live.

arguskos
2010-06-27, 06:39 PM
AD&D has much more detail about the Slaadi than 3.5 ever did. For example, it details the Slaad Lords (Ygorl, Lord of Entropy; Ssendam, Lord of Madness; Chorst, Lord of Randomness; and Renbuu, Lord of Colors). Bazim-Gorag is the idiot bastard of the Lords, and the other four are so much more awesome. Renbuu is the best, being awesome and everything.

XANXOST THE SLAAD IS AWESOME, BTWS.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-27, 06:40 PM
Battletoads

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-27, 06:44 PM
Battletoads

What? (Stupid 10 word minimum.)

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 07:10 PM
You don't know about battletoads!?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-27, 07:29 PM
You don't know about battletoads!?

It's a multi-system game that has nothing to do with this topic.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-27, 08:02 PM
Of all the outsiders, I've never really known how to approach slaadi. I get the sense that they are just generically dangerous, but could you do a roleplaying encounter with them? How would they act? I guess demons and eladrin have the guidance of good and evil to give some drive and substance to their chaos, but slaadi just have chaos. It seems an innately dangerous and violent kind of chaos, though. The modrons and inevitables can be dangerous if certain laws are broken, but it's as if slaadi don't need a reason to be violent. Do they have reasons to do anything at all?

I guess I just have trouble wrapping my head around what a being of pure chaos would even do if it encountered mortals. Would it even care? Would it care one second, stop caring the next, then recite an epic poem, then invite everyone to a party, then elect itself president of the kingdom of Zoompimple, then eat one of your kidneys, then lomp on the fyornwran figwitz?

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-27, 08:13 PM
Slaadi are not pure chaos... There is clearly a strong reproductive urge, based on the abilities of the race.

Slaadi are, apparently, like a cancer upon life. They convert what they can and subborn or destroy the rest.

Kind of like chaos-Borg. :smallbiggrin:

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-27, 08:28 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92837

The only source for them I've found useful myself.

Sorry, had to wait so I wouldn't be double posting and I didn't feel like just shoe horning you into another post.

Thank you greatly for linking to that.

afroakuma
2010-06-27, 08:34 PM
afroakuma has much more detail about the Slaadi than AD&D ever did.

You are correct, sir! :smallwink:

JonestheSpy
2010-06-27, 08:45 PM
Of all the outsiders, I've never really known how to approach slaadi. I get the sense that they are just generically dangerous, but could you do a roleplaying encounter with them? How would they act? I guess demons and eladrin have the guidance of good and evil to give some drive and substance to their chaos, but slaadi just have chaos. It seems an innately dangerous and violent kind of chaos, though. The modrons and inevitables can be dangerous if certain laws are broken, but it's as if slaadi don't need a reason to be violent. Do they have reasons to do anything at all?

I guess I just have trouble wrapping my head around what a being of pure chaos would even do if it encountered mortals. Would it even care? Would it care one second, stop caring the next, then recite an epic poem, then invite everyone to a party, then elect itself president of the kingdom of Zoompimple, then eat one of your kidneys, then lomp on the fyornwran figwitz?

I've said before, I think Slaad are absolutely the worst-conceived outsiders in the game. It partly comes from their origin - the 1st edition Fiend Folio, which was a collection of amateur-created monsters that was totally hit an miss, and the Slaad were obviously created to be just more monsters to kill by someone who equated chaos with bad guy - no thought seemed to be given as to their place in the cosmology, even though they were the prime residents of the plane of Chaos.

Lots of attempts were made later to shoehorn the slaad into the DnD mulitverse, but none of it ever seemed convincing to me - they always just came off as evil, and the more powerful ones were outright labeled evil. Why should chaotic creatures become evil as they grow in power? Where are the slaad who lean towards good? Residents of Limbo shouldn't be any more dangerous or malevolent than the modrons, when you get down to it.

Rant, rant, pant pant.


edit: Ranting aside, Afrokuama's definitely done the best job I've seen at turning the slaad into something appropriate for a race spawned from Limbo.

For Valor
2010-06-27, 08:51 PM
I've said before, I think Slaad are absolutely the worst-conceived outsiders in the game. It partly comes from their origin - the 1st edition Fiend Folio, which was a collection of amateur-created monsters that was totally hit an miss, and the Slaad were obviously created to be just more monsters to kill by someone who equated chaos with bad guy - no thought seemed to be given as to their place in the cosmology, even though they were the prime residents of the plane of Chaos.

Lots of attempts were made later to shoehorn the slaad into the DnD mulitverse, but none of it ever seemed convincing to me - they always just came off as evil, and the more powerful ones were outright labeled evil. Why should chaotic creatures become evil as they grow in power? Where are the slaad who lean towards good? Residents of Limbo shouldn't be any more dangerous or malevolent than the modrons, when you get down to it.

Rant, rant, pant pant.

edit: Ranting aside, Afrokuama's definitely done the best job I've seen at turning the slaad into something appropriate for a race spawned from Limbo.

Um... Giant Frog.

That is all.

Akal Saris
2010-06-27, 09:04 PM
I made a Slaad build once using the prestige class from Savage Species!

Mrygrl the Brooding:
CN Red Slaad RHD 7/LA 5/Warblade 1/Slaad Brooder 7 (LA buyoff: 1 at 18th)

32 PB:
Str: 26
Dex: 16
Con: 20
Int: 12
Wis: 6
Cha: 6

Racial mods: Str +10, Dex +4, Con +6, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -2

Racial abilities: Pounce, implant, stunning croak, summon slaad, fast healing 5, darkvision 60ft, immunity to sonic, resist others 5, +8 NA, large, Bite 2d8 and 2 claws 1d4

Feats:
1: Multiattack
3: Improved Multiattack
6: Improved Toughness
9: Rapidstrike
12: Improved Rapidstrike
15: Improved Critical (Claws)

Steveotep
2010-06-27, 09:16 PM
Tome of Horrors from Necromancer Games has Slaad Lord: Lord of Entropy (CR 32) and Lord of the Insane (CR 30). Have fun!

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 09:23 PM
I made a Slaad build once using the prestige class from Savage Species!

Mrygrl the Brooding:
CN Red Slaad RHD 7/LA 5/Warblade 1/Slaad Brooder 7 (LA buyoff: 1 at 18th)

32 PB:
Str: 26
Dex: 16
Con: 20
Int: 12
Wis: 6
Cha: 6

Racial mods: Str +10, Dex +4, Con +6, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -2

Racial abilities: Pounce, implant, stunning croak, summon slaad, fast healing 5, darkvision 60ft, immunity to sonic, resist others 5, +8 NA, large, Bite 2d8 and 2 claws 1d4

Feats:
1: Multiattack
3: Improved Multiattack
6: Improved Toughness
9: Rapidstrike
12: Improved Rapidstrike
15: Improved Critical (Claws)

How do you pay off LA? I've seen it somewhere before, but can't remember how to do it/how it works. :smallconfused:

Akal Saris
2010-06-27, 09:37 PM
It's an option from Unearthed Arcana. Basically there's a chart showing the LA bonus and what level you can buy off at. When you hit that level, you pay 1 level's worth of experience.

So if I had a +2 LA, when I hit level 6, I could pay all my experience from that level and go back down to 5th level and +1 LA. Then my party would still be ECL 7, but I would be ECL 6, so I would get more experience per encounter, eventually catching up with the party in 3-4 levels.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 09:43 PM
Thank you very much! Bookmarked that.

Xuc Xac
2010-06-27, 10:04 PM
Slaadi are not pure chaos...

The fact that they're all color-coded should be your first clue.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-27, 10:41 PM
The fact that they're all color-coded should be your first clue.

Psuedonatural beings... creatures with no stable form... shapechangers... these are beings of Chaos.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-27, 10:43 PM
Psuedonatural beings... creatures with no stable form... shapechangers... these are beings of Chaos.

I'd lump them more in with Insanity than Chaos. Just because something is beyond the comprehension of any rational, mortal mind doesn't mean its necessarily Chaotic.

afroakuma
2010-06-27, 10:51 PM
edit: Ranting aside, Afrokuama's definitely done the best job I've seen at turning the slaad into something appropriate for a race spawned from Limbo.

Why thank you.

It should be noted, in fairness, that there are two significant reasons why standard slaadi act (or in truth, are) evil:

1) They are creatures of chaos from a discordant realm. Those that interact with others in any meaningful way outside of Limbo are therefore inherently unpredictable and unreliable, so good creatures tend to ignore them. Evil creatures (such as the tanar'ri) are far more likely to employ them to spread chaos and to use as self-replenishing fodder in the Blood War.

2) Death, white and black slaadi are evil because they are deliberate corruptions of chaos by evil. My update adds a "natural" trajectory for slaadi and shafts these aberrants completely.

The third reason was the standard 1e/2e spirit of the game that foisted the whole parasitic reproduction thing on them. I've partially removed that from the slaadi (at the cost of squicking some people :smalltongue:) and made them more... naturally chaotic.


Psuedonatural beings... creatures with no stable form... shapechangers... these are beings of Chaos.

Not necessarily. Pseudonatural beings are amoral and without ethic. "Chaotic neutral" merely best defines how to project their mentality into our morality. Many shapechangers are actually rather neutral.

Rappy
2010-06-27, 11:32 PM
Tome of Horrors from Necromancer Games has Slaad Lord: Lord of Entropy (CR 32) and Lord of the Insane (CR 30). Have fun!
The same crew also made 3E versions of the Lord of Colors (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/rennbuu.htm) and Lord of Randomness (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/chourst.htm) (warning, they're 3.0, so you'll need to tweak them somewhat).

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-28, 08:19 AM
The same crew also made 3E versions of the Lord of Colors (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/rennbuu.htm) and Lord of Randomness (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/slaad/chourst.htm) (warning, they're 3.0, so you'll need to tweak them somewhat).

Thanks. (Rassum Frassum 10 word...)

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:30 AM
White and black, they should be in the srd


They aren't... but going by WotC's site, you're right that they should be.

Also, a more playable "slaad" is present in Planar Handbook - the Neraphim. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)


It's a multi-system game that has nothing to do with this topic.

Yes, but do you have it???? (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/battletoads-preorder)

Kish
2010-06-28, 08:44 AM
2) Death, white and black slaadi are evil because they are deliberate corruptions of chaos by evil.
White and black slaadi aren't evil. (Which means that, apparently, they go through being evil when they're death slaad, and then return to being Chaotic Neutral when they move beyond it.)

afroakuma
2010-06-28, 09:47 AM
White and black slaadi aren't evil. (Which means that, apparently, they go through being evil when they're death slaad, and then return to being Chaotic Neutral when they move beyond it.)

My error; I recalled black slaadi being listed as evil, which is actually "Usually chaotic neutral, sometimes chaotic evil."

arguskos
2010-06-28, 10:37 AM
My error; I recalled black slaadi being listed as evil, which is actually "Usually chaotic neutral, sometimes chaotic evil."
Because using WotC logic, Black=evil. :smallsigh: Dammit WotC.

Also, I keep waiting for an update on Wartle. :smalltongue: Joking, of course.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 10:44 AM
Because using WotC logic, Black=evil. :smallsigh: Dammit WotC.

To be fair:

1) They come from Death Slaad, who tend to be bastards;
2) There are plenty of Light is Not Good examples in standard D&D for us to paint them with that brush - including the White Dragon.

arguskos
2010-06-28, 10:45 AM
Opti, it's more that such a leap of logic is EXACTLY what I would expect from WotC, what with their propensity for moon logic and all that.

subject42
2010-06-28, 10:49 AM
Is there a direct statement anywhere that the Slaad lords are even Slaadi?

I get the impression that a pair of misplaced Devils have been trying to herd enormous toadlike extraplanar cats into doing their dirty work for millennia now.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-28, 10:59 AM
Is there a direct statement anywhere that the Slaad lords are even Slaadi?

I get the impression that a pair of misplaced Devils have been trying to herd enormous toadlike extraplanar cats into doing their dirty work for millennia now.

The Lords are supposed to be entities of pure chaos, being the end result of true Slaad evolution. But they don't like the idea of competition so they're used magic genetic engineering to force the rest of their kind to evolve along lines that are weaker and thus make the Lords more comfortable in their positions of absolute power.

hamishspence
2010-06-28, 01:08 PM
One of the things 4E did was move slaadi to Chaotic Evil.

This may or may not be consistant with the way slaadi actually behaved in earlier editions.

There's also a new colour (in MM3) - Golden Slaad.

afroakuma
2010-06-28, 01:12 PM
Is there a direct statement anywhere that the Slaad lords are even Slaadi?

I get the impression that a pair of misplaced Devils have been trying to herd enormous toadlike extraplanar cats into doing their dirty work for millennia now.

Definitely not devils, given that they are extremely chaotic. I consider them true slaadi. The only truly evil one in the group is Ygorl (although Sorel's on the line), whereas Ssendam is chaotic neutral in the "insane" fashion, while Rennbuu is a self-absorbed prankster and Chourst an unpredictable free spirit.

Kish
2010-06-29, 06:27 AM
To be fair:

1) They come from Death Slaad, who tend to be bastards;
Yes, but they go through the white slaad stage first. So, apparently, they spend a stage of their life cycle as evil, then return to being Chaotic Neutral, then, in their final form, most of them stick with Chaotic Neutral but a few become evil again. It makes very little sense, really.

Akal Saris
2010-06-29, 08:29 AM
Yes, but they go through the white slaad stage first. So, apparently, they spend a stage of their life cycle as evil, then return to being Chaotic Neutral, then, in their final form, most of them stick with Chaotic Neutral but a few become evil again. It makes very little sense, really.

Does it have to make sense? They're slaad.

Debihuman
2010-06-29, 08:46 AM
The following monsters are considered "Product Identity" by Wizards of the Coast and are therefore not part of the SRD:

* beholder
* gauth
* carrion crawler
* displacer beast
* githyanki
* githzerai
* kuo-toa
* mind flayer
* slaad
* umber hulk
* yuan-ti

These are not open content creatures.

Debby

Kish
2010-06-29, 08:49 AM
Does it have to make sense? They're slaad.
You mean, color-coded humanoid toads? "They're creatures of chaos" really doesn't cover WotC's lousy decisions, though I don't doubt they want it to. The official slaad writeup is, for the most part, orderly and unimaginative, with the occasional touch of stupid (the alignment switching under discussion).

Good show fixing them, afroakuma.

hamishspence
2010-06-29, 08:54 AM
I wondered if they were a nod to the toadlike "servitors of the Outer Gods" who dance around the daemon sultan Azathoth: in the Cthulhu Mythos.

Azathoth is also described as "seething nuclear chaos" (though I think in this case nuclear meant "like a cellular nucleus").

So- toadlike entities of chaos.

afroakuma
2010-06-29, 09:44 AM
You mean, color-coded humanoid toads? "They're creatures of chaos" really doesn't cover WotC's lousy decisions, though I don't doubt they want it to. The official slaad writeup is, for the most part, orderly and unimaginative, with the occasional touch of stupid (the alignment switching under discussion).

TSR had a brief moment of lucidity when they explained about the true slaadi; I've simply expanded upon that. WotC dropped right back into uselessness though - unsurprisingly.


Good show fixing them, afroakuma.

Thank you! :smallsmile:

Next race undergoing corrections is the modrons.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 09:53 AM
These are not open content creatures.

Debby

That's debatable - Slaad are listed as such (i.e. Product Identity) on the d20srd, but not on WotC's own site. (www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Legal.rtf)

It seems odd that they would label Slaad and not Inevitables anyway. I think Jans just slipped up.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 10:44 AM
That's debatable - Slaad are listed as such (i.e. Product Identity) on the d20srd, but not on WotC's own site. (www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Legal.rtf)

It seems odd that they would label Slaad and not Inevitables anyway. I think Jans just slipped up.

Besides, we're not even discussing their statistics or any pertinent game information concerning them. We're just speaking of known fluff about them and which books they appear in, which is hardly violating their Product Identity.

Eldan
2010-06-29, 01:44 PM
Why do the modrons need fixing? I liked them as described in The Great Modron March.

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 05:33 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92837

The only source for them I've found useful myself.

That was pretty interesting.
But how did Gormeel Slaadi fit into this fluff?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 06:51 PM
That was pretty interesting.
But how did Gormeel Slaadi fit into this fluff?

What are they?

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 06:55 PM
The Gormeel Slaadi? Because of Limbo's chaotic nature, the randomness created lawful slaadi that hated other slaadi.
How would they fit into the hierarchy and lore described by afroakuma?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 06:59 PM
The Gormeel Slaadi? Because of Limbo's chaotic nature, the randomness created lawful slaadi that hated other slaadi.
How would they fit into the hierarchy and lore described by afroakuma?

Huh, never heard of that breed. Are they Dragon Magazine or something?

arguskos
2010-06-29, 07:01 PM
Why do the modrons need fixing? I liked them as described in The Great Modron March.
Speaking as someone on the wrong side of a modron currently, it's the mechanics he's updating. The fluff is pretty fine IMO, but the mechanics were... sad.

@Bendrasar, yes, the Gormeel are in Dragon #306

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 07:02 PM
Yes. Uh... Dragon #306. Apparently, they are allies with the Githzerai.

Edit: Also, if any of you are interested: http://www.enworld.org/forum/homebrews/65780-slaad-palooza-3.html

"Slaad-a-palooza!" by Demiurge.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 07:32 PM
I just noticed that Afro didn't statt out Bazim-Gorag either in his rebuild.

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 07:36 PM
hmm.... were his stats given in 3.5e?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 07:43 PM
hmm.... were his stats given in 3.5e?

In Champions of Ruin but I wasn't aware that the other Slaad Lords weren't re-statted in 3.5

And I don't believe he was mentioned anywhere in Afro's fluff.

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 07:46 PM
... Perhaps he was not considered significant enough to be in the notes? Or perhaps he didn't need to be modified?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-29, 07:50 PM
... Perhaps he was not considered significant enough to be in the notes? Or perhaps he didn't need to be modified?

Or he could have been forgotten, like how Afro forgot that Black Slaad's can be CN or CE.

We'll have to ask him when he logs on.


Gormeel are interesting but I question the name choice.

LOTRfan
2010-06-29, 07:54 PM
Perhaps.

And the Gormeel is definitely worth a second look. I'll see what else I can find.

afroakuma
2010-06-29, 10:17 PM
I just noticed that Afro didn't statt out Bazim-Gorag either in his rebuild.

Bazim-Gorag was unworthy of my notice for several reasons.

Firstly, he's in a can (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan).

Secondly, I don't consider him a legitimate slaad lord; he may have been promoted to FR canon from that Dungeon adventure, but in both of them he's an outsider with the Evil subtype, and therefore not a true slaad (even death slaadi only possess the Chaotic alignment subtype). He's essentially a glorified balor.

Thirdly, him not being a slaad lord makes an excellent case of why there are so few: there is a "shelf" tier that advanced death slaadi can attain, simultaneously giving them great power and cutting them off from ever advancing again. Bazim-Gorag has landed there, if he even is a slaad at all. Myself, I think he's a two-headed death slaad with a strong Abyssal taint to him.

As arguskos pointed out, Wartle has the better claim by far, but his relative obscurity leads me to believe he's either dead or largely irrelevant.

Now, there was a huge expository design over on Dicefreaks (immensely larger and more pompous than my own), trace elements of which seem to have cropped up independently in my own design. By and large, however, vastly different beasts.

Eldan: there are several reasons modrons need a do-over, but that's neither here nor there. In the main, though, they certainly needed a proper re-statting.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 12:35 AM
Bazim-Gorag was unworthy of my notice for several reasons.

Firstly, he's in a can (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SealedEvilInACan).

Secondly, I don't consider him a legitimate slaad lord; he may have been promoted to FR canon from that Dungeon adventure, but in both of them he's an outsider with the Evil subtype, and therefore not a true slaad (even death slaadi only possess the Chaotic alignment subtype). He's essentially a glorified balor.

Thirdly, him not being a slaad lord makes an excellent case of why there are so few: there is a "shelf" tier that advanced death slaadi can attain, simultaneously giving them great power and cutting them off from ever advancing again. Bazim-Gorag has landed there, if he even is a slaad at all. Myself, I think he's a two-headed death slaad with a strong Abyssal taint to him.

As arguskos pointed out, Wartle has the better claim by far, but his relative obscurity leads me to believe he's either dead or largely irrelevant.

Now, there was a huge expository design over on Dicefreaks (immensely larger and more pompous than my own), trace elements of which seem to have cropped up independently in my own design. By and large, however, vastly different beasts.

Eldan: there are several reasons modrons need a do-over, but that's neither here nor there. In the main, though, they certainly needed a proper re-statting.

So you consider him a kind of Demi-Lord?

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 01:00 AM
So you consider him a kind of Demi-Lord?

I officially consider him nothing. He's CR 21; so are indigo slaadi.

In fact, according to WotC, Bazim-Gorag isn't even a slaad, so...

Yeah.

At best, I consider him a curiosity trapped in Faerun, with a lovely premade adventure to accompany him. At worst, I consider him borderline non-canonical to 3.5, and about as slaad as a balor. He's certainly no demilord.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 01:54 AM
I officially consider him nothing. He's CR 21; so are indigo slaadi.

In fact, according to WotC, Bazim-Gorag isn't even a slaad, so...

Yeah.

At best, I consider him a curiosity trapped in Faerun, with a lovely premade adventure to accompany him. At worst, I consider him borderline non-canonical to 3.5, and about as slaad as a balor. He's certainly no demilord.
...do you have a reference on the claim that WotC themselves deny he is a slaad? Since, uh, looking at the most recent source I'm aware of (Champions of Ruin) he is very much stated to be a unique slaad, if not a lord (personally, I agree he doesn't deserve the title).

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 04:16 AM
In 4E Faerun, he's referred to as a primordial in the Player's Guide (alongside Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, etc)

However, it may be possible that a creature can be both a primordial and a slaad lord at the same time. I can't remember if The Plane Below calls Ygorl a primordial as well as a slaad lord.

In 3.5 ed, Champions of Ruin not only calls Bazim-Gorag a slaad lord, but states he is "tainted by the same forces that taint death slaadi"

Maybe he's even more tainted than they are, hence the Evil subtype?

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 08:31 AM
...do you have a reference on the claim that WotC themselves deny he is a slaad? Since, uh, looking at the most recent source I'm aware of (Champions of Ruin) he is very much stated to be a unique slaad, if not a lord (personally, I agree he doesn't deserve the title).

4E sources from WotC claim him to be a "Batrachi lord," which would preclude him being a slaad lord entirely.

Also, yet again, he just plain sucks.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 08:33 AM
The batrachi (in 3rd ed) are suggested to have maybe evolved into the slaadi in Serpent Kingdoms.

Something like that may apply in 4E.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 08:53 AM
The batrachi (in 3rd ed) are suggested to have maybe evolved into the slaadi in Serpent Kingdoms.

Absolutely not. :smallannoyed:

Such provincialist foolishness could only have come from the setting that decided it wasn't going to be tied to the Manual of the Planes any longer.

Batrachi are not old enough to have become the slaad, which is just as well, since no.

That book never stops causing problems, does it.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:40 AM
Well, I honestly wouldn't use a 4.0 source as canon material for anything 3.5.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 10:51 AM
Well, I honestly wouldn't use a 4.0 source as canon material for anything 3.5.
Bingo. That's just me though.

Also, the batrachi, being provincial to the Realms, can do whatever they damn well please. Since I know of no references to them outside of that setting, complaining about them elsewhere is silly.

Besides, I thought it was pretty clear in the default planar landscape that the slaad were randomly generated by Limbo, much like how the modrons are the natural spawn of Mechanus to serve its will, and how the obryiths were the natural spawn of the Abyss, etcetcetc.

Ernir
2010-06-30, 11:43 AM
Renbuu, Lord of Colors

Is that pronounced "Rainbooh"? As in rainbow? :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-06-30, 11:51 AM
Is that pronounced "Rainbooh"? As in rainbow? :smallbiggrin:
Maybe? :smallbiggrin: Also, I spelled it wrong. It's actually Rennbuu, Lord of Colors.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 11:59 AM
Technically Serpent Kingdoms only says "a few scholars think the Batrachi fled to Limbo, where they became known as the slaadi"- leaving it open to the DM whether this is true or not.

Champions of Ruin states flatly that Bazim-Gorag is a slaad lord.

The Grand History of the Realms has a short extract, supposedly from Bazim-Gorag, that states:

"Many of your ignorant kind mistakenly confuse my people with the slaad, who make their home on the same plane. In fact I am a batrachi lord- far more powerful than any common fiend."

So, in 3.5, a case can be made that Bazim-Gorag only looks like a slaadi and lived where slaadi do, until being imprisoned.

In 4E however, in The Plane Below, in the Ygorl entry (which mentions other slaad lords) Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer is stated to be one.

So- in 3.5 ed, if you're using Champions of Ruin but not The Grand History of the Realms, Bazim-Gorag is officially a slaad lord, and in 4E, Bazim-Gorag is officially a slaad lord that does not only exist in Faerun.

However- the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide does state, that Bazim-Gorag is an "ascended batrachi" and leaves it ambiguous as to whether the slaadi descend from the batrachi.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 12:53 PM
Bingo. That's just me though.

No, that's also me, but as far as de-canonizing things... :smallamused: Generally speaking, that which is true in 4E is not true in my view of 3.5 canon.


Also, the batrachi, being provincial to the Realms, can do whatever they damn well please. Since I know of no references to them outside of that setting, complaining about them elsewhere is silly.

Except that the whole "these became the slaadi" thing would pull them out of the setting and put them into the multiverse at large, in a rather notable role. Again, a point I therefore consider non-canonical.


Besides, I thought it was pretty clear in the default planar landscape that the slaad were randomly generated by Limbo, much like how the modrons are the natural spawn of Mechanus to serve its will, and how the obryiths were the natural spawn of the Abyss, etcetcetc.

Correct.

hamishspence: again, he has no history, none of the characteristics, and as an outsider is not a true slaad. At CR 21, with no particularly unique abilities, no planar history, and no domain, Bazim-Gorag is at best a shelf-level advanced death slaad. A "slaad noble," if you will.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:33 PM
It might be a case of mortals being able to transform themselves.

A bit like a D&D character using rituals to gain the Outsider type and tanar'ri subtype.

Bazim-Gorag may be a case of this, a mortal batrachi who "ascended" thus becoming a unique slaad despite not being born one.

Being CR 21 isn't that much of a problem- it's quite a reasonable CR. Some of the "Archomentals" in Dragon, Jubilex & Bel in BoVD, and so on, have a CR of around 20 or just over.

Maybe the Firebringer is the weakest entity that can be called a "slaad lord" by Faerunian sages?

Similarly, maybe the batrachi post-date the slaadi, but transformed themselves into slaadi with magic?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 01:35 PM
I'd like to put forward that Bazim-Gorag probably isn't actually a Slaad. Reviewing his Stat block, his immunities and resistances don't match up with those a Slaad possesses.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:38 PM
Maybe Slaad Lord is a generic term applying to any powerful, unique Outsider with the Chaotic subtype, native to Limbo, with the ability to summon slaadi?

Bazim-Gorag has that ability.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 01:39 PM
Maybe Slaad Lord is a generic term applying to any powerful, unique Outsider with the Chaotic subtype, native to Limbo, with the ability to summon slaadi?

Bazim-Gorag has that ability.

But he doesn't have immunity to Sonic damage, something all Slaad posses.

And unlike Archdevil, Archdemon or Archdaemon, I don't believe Slaad Lord is just a generic title of office.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:53 PM
They didn't have sonic immunity in 3.0. Was the Dungeon issue with the Firebringer a late 3.0 issue or early 3.5?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 01:56 PM
They didn't have sonic immunity in 3.0. Was the Dungeon issue with the Firebringer a late 3.0 issue or early 3.5?

Champions of Ruin isn't 3.0. You can see that in Bazim-Gorag's own stat block since he has DR 15/Epic and Lawful. If it was a 3.0 source he'd have something more along the lines of DR 20/+5.

Edit:

Also, the Core books for 3.5 were printed in 2003 and Champions of Ruin came out in 2005.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:59 PM
yes- but he came out in a Dungeon issue some time before Champions of Ruin came out.

They might have updated his DR, but not his immunities.

However, I can't remember when that Dungeon issue came out in the first place.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 02:01 PM
yes- but he came out in a Dungeon issue some time before Champions of Ruin came out.

They might have updated his DR, but not his immunities.

However, I can't remember when that Dungeon issue came out in the first place.

Dungeon 101, the issue Bazim-Gorage first appeared in, came out August 2003, the same year and several months after the advent of 3.5

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 02:03 PM
Good point. Which probably leaves the question of what the designers were thinking when they chose to only give him sonic resistance 30.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 02:09 PM
Good point. Which probably leaves the question of what the designers were thinking when they chose to only give him sonic resistance 30.

He only has Sonic Resistance 10; I think you're looking at his Spell Resistance.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 02:12 PM
Ah, right.

Maybe it was a trade-off- sonic immunity for fire immunity?

The wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bazim-Gorag

does suggest that even the transformed batrachi are not technically slaadi- but very easily mistaken for them.

Hmm- maybe the "ordinary batrachi" are the neraphim- which look very like slaadi, but aren't slaadi?

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 02:44 PM
Ah, right.

Maybe it was a trade-off- sonic immunity for fire immunity?

The wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bazim-Gorag

does suggest that even the transformed batrachi are not technically slaadi- but very easily mistaken for them.

Hmm- maybe the "ordinary batrachi" are the neraphim- which look very like slaadi, but aren't slaadi?

I always assumed Neraphim were convergent evolution with Slaads since Chaonds are the descendants of Slaads.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 02:52 PM
Hence my suggestion, that the "easily mistaken for slaadi" batrachi, might actually be the neraphim.

Probably isn't true- but its a way of making the "batrachi transformed themselves into slaadilike creatures" story work.

As far as I can tell- the neraphim weren't in any D&D sources prior to Planar Handbook.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 02:55 PM
I think I've officially lost track of who you're trying to convince of what, hamishspence.

Short-form is this: the batrachi are (nearly) extinct; their fire has gone out of the universe. There happen to be many outsider races resembling frogs to some extent, including (most) slaadi, neraphim, hezrou and hydroloths. Further, there are several powers directly tied to frogs, notably Wastri and Ramenos (and less notably Ggorulluzg).

However, in the canon I follow, espouse and build from/for, batrachi are unrelated to slaadi in any fashion, save for those parasitized like any other mortal. Batrachi are similarly unrelated to any other planar race, including the neraphim, hydroloths and hezrou.

In said canon, there were four slaad lords, with a fifth recently promoted, having been groomed for it by Ygorl. The existence of a sixth, Wartle, is still unconfirmed and possibly apocryphal.

In said canon, Bazim-Gorag's true origin is a matter of some mild speculation, but it has been determined conclusively that he is either a demon or a "slaad noble," an advanced death slaad. What is confirmed, in said canon, is that he is not a slaad lord.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 02:59 PM
In said canon, Bazim-Gorag's true origin is a matter of some mild speculation, but it has been determined conclusively that he is either a demon or a "slaad noble," an advanced death slaad. What is confirmed, in said canon, is that he is not a slaad lord.

He's definitely not a Slaad. I think Faerun canon does in fact name him as just an ascended, surviving Batrachi that either totes himself as a Slaad Lord or is confused for one because of similar appearance and abilities.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 03:01 PM
The point I was trying to make, is that at least some WoTC sources (like Champions of Ruin, or The Plane Below) use the term "slaad lord" loosely enough to cover creatures like Bazim-Gorag.

However- if your own canon defines the term much more tightly- that's up to you.

Alternatively- those books are "wrong" for using the term so loosely- or have been retconned by later material.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 03:11 PM
To further an earlier possible point, the Mud Slaad from Fiend Folio (a 3.0 source) had Sonic Immunity so I'm pretty sure that Bazim-Gorag's lack of Sonic Immunity was inherently on purpose to leave some mechanical hint that he isn't what he claims to be.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 03:14 PM
The issue has been raised before:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/255461-were-nether-scrolls-ever-published-anywhere.html

and the solution seemed to be, that you don't have to be a slaad, to be a slaad lord- that mortals can claim a place among the slaad lords.

That might account for the Firebringer- and his natural ability to summon slaadi.

Fiend Folio was very late 3.0 (prototype 3.5 mechanics, like the Extraplanar Subtype, square spaces, changes to skills, were implemented)- so maybe that's why mud slaadi got sonic immunity- to bring them into line with the expected 3.5 chanages.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 03:21 PM
The issue has been raised before:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/255461-were-nether-scrolls-ever-published-anywhere.html

and the solution seemed to be, that you don't have to be a slaad, to be a slaad lord- that mortals can claim a place among the slaad lords.

That might account for the Firebringer- and his natural ability to summon slaadi.

But also as the thread brings up, the only reason he still exists to tote himself as one is because he came to the Material Plane. Bazim-Gorag is definitely one of those creatures that doesn't have to answer a Gate spell and the only logical (yeah, yeah, Chaos, I know) reason that he would answer this call rather than still rule on his home plane is that Ygorl and Ssendam were most likely not taking kindly to his evil taint to their pure chaotic realm. Something like the Fire-bringer is exactly why they stunted Slaad evolution in the first place.

Edit: Then why didn't they change the Damage Reductions in the book too?

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 03:24 PM
Realms cosmology can be a bit weird- in The Grand History of the Realms- it seems like a mix of the new planes in FRCS 3.0, and the Great Wheel planes.

"The Supreme Throne" in Pandemonium, was apparently Bazim-Gorag's home before being imprisoned on the Material Plane. So he didn't stay in Limbo long.

I think they didn't change the DRs, because that was the last thing they implemented- the "marking point" where 3.5 books begin.

In the online update to Fiend Folio- only DRs need changing to have viable 3.5 monsters.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 03:26 PM
Realms cosmology can be a bit weird- in The Grand History of the Realms- It seems like a mix of the new planes in FRCS 3.0, and the Great Wheel planes

"The Supreme Throne" in Pandemonium, was apparently Bazim-Gorag's home before being imprisoned on the Material Plane. So he didn't stay in Limbo long.

Which brings into question him being a slaad lord even more.

What perspective was Champions of Ruin written from? I know sometimes source books are written as if an in-universe character created them.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 03:34 PM
As far as I can tell, it's not written from a character's perspective. It refers to him as a slaad lord throughout:

Bazim-Gorag is a slaad lord, one of the most powerful slaadi in existence, tainted by the same malignant forces that transform gray slaadi into death slaadi. Like the other slaad lords, Bazim-Gorag is a champion of chaos.

The greatest threat to Bazim-Gorag might actually come from others of his kind. The slaad lords Ssendam and Ygorl tolerate Bazim-Gorag's destructive nature as long as Bazim-Gorag refrains from overtly challenging their rule over the race. Bazim-Gorag naturally schemes to advance the power of th death slaadi over the rest of their kind.

The "I am a batrachi lord" bit in The Grand History, was written as if it was The Firebringer speaking though.

If the Champions of Ruin entries had been written as if by a Realms character: "Volo's Guide to the Champions of Ruin"- the idea that the writer got it wrong would work.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 03:47 PM
The point I was trying to make, is that at least some WoTC sources (like Champions of Ruin, or The Plane Below) use the term "slaad lord" loosely enough to cover creatures like Bazim-Gorag.

Of course they do - WotC wouldn't know canon if it was aiming at them with a lit fuse. :smallwink:

More importantly: I never consider any material written for 4E to be backwards-canonical, for several good reasons. "Slaad as evil fiends" being a relevant one here.

Now, this whole issue has been blown out of proportion massively, because here's the simple truth: Bazim-Gorag came from a Dungeon Magazine adventure and was thrown into Champions of Ruin to swell the ranks of elder nastiness local to Faerun.


However- if your own canon defines the term much more tightly- that's up to you.

My canon works with canonical sources from prior editions, including generic materials. My canon excludes 3rd Edition cosmology revision and other such changes that were wrought on 3rd Edition FR. Where 3.X FR contradicts traditional multiverse canon, it is ignored with gusto.


Alternatively- those books are "wrong" for using the term so loosely- or have been retconned by later material.

Certainly what I believe, but then, the slaad (and really the Planes overall) just got short shrift in 3.X, so it doesn't surprise me.

Anyways, my view is that the book is quite simply wrong, much as other published sources have been. There's nothing wrong with that; it happens. Asmodeus has at least three different origins, so something's got to be "wrong" at some point. What you're debating at the moment seems to be ways that a published source could be wrong but still right, which is... well, slightly off topic, but regardless, is irrelevant to me. Checking out until needed again.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 03:55 PM
The "Batrachi are forerunners of the neraphim" idea, has been raised before:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/24071413/creater_races?pg=2

It also provides some ideas as to how the Great Wheel interacts with the Great Tree- for example, that Limbo in particular has links to the Tree cosmology.

As to "slaadi in Pandemonium"- there is info suggesting that even in the Greyhawk cosmology "slaadi grown too grim and terrible for Limbo" make their home in Pandemonium:

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pandemonium

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 04:42 PM
Either that or Asmodeus really does have 3 different origins due to being an amalgam of the BAMFs from several different universes.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 04:47 PM
The Pact Primeval story might be partly devilish propaganda- FC2 does point this out, even while giving us it.

The Politics of Hell article in Dragon 48 is very old- and may have been superseded.

The Twin Serpents idea actually works well with Faerun mythology in Serpent Kingdoms- which mentions the World Serpent shattering into many lesser deities, one of which is Jazirian.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 04:56 PM
My canon works with canonical sources from prior editions, including generic materials. My canon excludes 3rd Edition cosmology revision and other such changes that were wrought on 3rd Edition FR. Where 3.X FR contradicts traditional multiverse canon, it is ignored with gusto.
Actually, considering how FR's sphere has a unique planar cosmology, it's entirely possible that the batrachi DID evolve into what Realmspace scholars called slaad in that sphere exclusively, and when they were encountered by slaad from the Wheel, the batrachi-slaad were absorbed into the greater race, and thus lost (and good riddance, IMO).

This blends everything perfectly workably, explains where the batrachi went, gives a plausible explanation for the Firebringer (cosmologically, he is much more recent than the true Lords themselves, much as the batrachi are cosmologically much more recent than true slaad from the Wheel) and his uniqueness from true slaad lords. He might simply be more heavily related to the original batrachi evolutionary chain, and wasn't absorbed into the true slaad form when Realmspace's cosmology was discovered.

Note that the above is ENTIRELY speculation, but sounds pretty cool to me. It lets afro's work be dominant, while combining all the sources we have together in a plausible fashion. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 05:07 PM
Sounds about right.

Even in Greyhawk, some of the amphibian races- bullywugs and grippli, for example, are suggested as having stemmed from a common ancestor.

I like the notion of the neraphim being the last remnant of the batrachi though. They have much more in common with the slaadi (in looks, native plane, Chaotic tendencies) than most of the froggy outsider races- without actually being slaadi.

It's interesting to see just how much in 3rd ed/3.5 ed, which is in Faerun books, was considered part of the Greyhawk universe in older editions- Vhaeraun, bullywugs (and other creatures in Monsters of Faerun), the various serpent deities, etc.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 06:32 PM
Actually, considering how FR's sphere has a unique planar cosmology

Well, they claim that, but I've always ignored it, as in the past FR was tied very heavily to the Great Wheel.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 08:12 PM
Well, they claim that, but I've always ignored it, as in the past FR was tied very heavily to the Great Wheel.
Gotta admit though, my speculation DOES work in the 3.5 image of the Realms and an understanding of Spelljammer's sphere system, no? It's not hard to figure that perhaps each sphere's specific evolutions were absorbed by the main slaad race, as befits the nature of chaos (I actually wrote Chourst on accident instead of chaos for a moment there XD).

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 08:59 PM
I just want to state that I believe that Bazim-Gorag is not, I repeat NOT, a Slaad, even if he claims to be a slaad lord. His stats don't reflect actual Slaad and as other Faerun material has said, he doesn't even claim to be an actual Slaad but a Batrachi.

The Tygre
2010-06-30, 09:53 PM
What's the opinion on Proteans, the new Chaotics from Pathfinder? While I think the ophidian angle has been done to death, it makes more sense for a xaos creature. I mean, that's what always bothered me about Slaad. It wasn't the fact that they were basically chaotic evil, it was that they were -frogs-. Frogs only represent chaos in a few cultures, like Egypt and African folklore. But snakes are universally signs of a primordial chaos, death, life, rebirth, power, fertility, virility, and mystery.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:15 PM
What's the opinion on Proteans, the new Chaotics from Pathfinder? While I think the ophidian angle has been done to death, it makes more sense for a xaos creature. I mean, that's what always bothered me about Slaad. It wasn't the fact that they were basically chaotic evil, it was that they were -frogs-. Frogs only represent chaos in a few cultures, like Egypt and African folklore. But snakes are universally signs of a primordial chaos, death, life, rebirth, power, fertility, virility, and mystery.

The what now?

The Tygre
2010-06-30, 10:25 PM
The what now?

Pathfinder version of the Slaad. Snakes instead of frogs. Live in the chaos that is the Maelstrom.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:27 PM
Pathfinder version of the Slaad. Snakes instead of frogs. Live in the chaos that is the Maelstrom.

I've yet to hear anything about them and they're not on the Pathfinder SRD.

What book are they from?

deuxhero
2010-06-30, 10:29 PM
Speaking of them, how do they get pronounced? I guess it's fitting for something made of chaos to be so, but I can't figure out it out.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:30 PM
Speaking of them, how do they get pronounced? I guess it's fitting for something made of chaos to be so, but I can't figure out it out.

"Pro-Tea-In"

"Sla-odd" (at least how I pronounce it.)

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 10:32 PM
Sl-aww/ahh-duh or Sluh-ahh-duh. Ocassionally Sluh-AAA-duh. or me.

The way I always saw it, the devils shouldn't have had all of those vastly different physical forms like the demons and the slaad shouldn't have all been giant frogs. They should've had a discernible hierarchy of forms in the former case and well, variety in the latter.

Creatures of Elemental(Well, ok, ALIGNMENTAL, bleck) Chaos (re: The Slaadi) should not all be following the central unifying theme of "GIANT FROG," or indeed, any central unifying theme like snakes, frogs, horned red people, tentacles, fishsticks. They should probably be shapeshifters to boot, or at least morphic/plastic in some way.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:34 PM
The way I always saw it, the devils shouldn't have had all of those vastly different physical forms. They should've had a discernible hierarchy of forms.

Creatures of Elemental(Well, ok, ALIGNMENTAL, bleck) Chaos (re: The Slaadi) should not all be following the central unifying theme of "GIANT FROG," or indeed, any central unifying theme like snakes, frogs, horned red people, tentacles, fishsticks. They should probably be shapeshifters to boot, or at least morphic/plastic in some way.

Slaad are toads because Ygorl and Ssendam didn't want anything more powerful than them showing up so they forced Slaad to take and reproduce into those set forms.

deuxhero
2010-06-30, 10:37 PM
"Pro-Tea-In"

"Sla-odd" (at least how I pronounce it.)

Thanks.

The plural? Just an e at the end?

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 10:37 PM
Slaad are toads because Ygorl and Ssendam didn't want anything more powerful than them showing up so they forced Slaad to take and reproduce into those set forms.

Yeah, don't care about the fluff there, just care that the designers were stupid and probably smoking too much. Bloody 1970s...

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-30, 10:41 PM
Thanks.

The plural? Just an e at the end?

Protean can be both singular and plural. Slaad I guess is really just up to you. 3.5 pluralized them as Slaadi and 4.0 did it as Slaads. I personally am going to use Slaad as both the singular and plural tense from now on.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 10:43 PM
The way I always saw it, the devils shouldn't have had all of those vastly different physical forms like the demons and the slaad shouldn't have all been giant frogs. They should've had a discernible hierarchy of forms in the former case and well, variety in the latter.

Baatezu for the most part are reptilian/draconian gargoyles or insects, with erinyes playing a more "angelic gargoyle" role and lemures being fleshblobs waiting to get a shape.

Tanar'ri tend towards starkly animalistic features, usually mammalian, with exaggerated anthropomorphism and stark brutality. Succubi again get an exemption, as do manes and dretches for being in essence tainted versions of their living selves.

Yugoloths are largely arthropod at lower levels, with "twisted humanoid" coming in at the upper echelons.

Slaadi, as explained in my Limbo project, are all in the anthropomorphic, "toadlike" shape because they've been sealed into it. A number of stronger slaadi have the ability to change shape to a limited extent. "True" slaadi, the slaadish, are so random as to be difficult to quantify as a race, with some members made of living fire with four legs and wings, while others are living, glowing ooze with seven eyes and still more are sentient fractals.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 10:46 PM
Slaadi, as explained in my Limbo project, are all in the anthropomorphic, "toadlike" shape because they've been sealed into it. A number of stronger slaadi have the ability to change shape to a limited extent. "True" slaadi, the slaadish, are so random as to be difficult to quantify as a race, with some members made of living fire with four legs and wings, while others are living, glowing ooze with seven eyes and still more are sentient fractals.
Don't we really only have five examples of true slaadish? The Lords are all true slaad, IIRC, though I guess one could debate if Chourst and Rennbuu are.

Ygorl and Ssendam are though, and Sorel probably is too, having been raised and trained by the Lord of Entropy, who could keep her on a short leash.

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 11:19 PM
Don't we really only have five examples of true slaadish? The Lords are all true slaad, IIRC, though I guess one could debate if Chourst and Rennbuu are.

Ssendam and Ygorl are slaadish, but they are to ideal slaadish what archdevils are to pit fiends. And I haven't even written up ideal slaadish yet.

Chourst and Rennbuu are very similar, but are partially affected by Anathema, which is why each generally retains a slaad form. Each one has a true form they choose not to use, since the Anathema mildly rebukes them for it.

Sorel is decidedly not; she was a death slaad who, through Ygorl's tutelage, worked her way through the process of casting off both her tainted shell and the lock of Anathema, and had enough power to take on a slaadish nature, acquiring a new form and a chaos domain through her power.

I was referring, however, to the general slaadish (CR ~7, ~11, ~15) which can be formed from the procedures I laid out. Their hierarchs, the ideal slaadish, will be detailed eventually - and are even more chaotic.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 11:21 PM
Don't know much about Sorel, so, fair enough.

Rennbuu and Chourst should revert to their true form more. Makes them more interesting. This may be my odd love of all things ancient in D&D coming to the forefront.

Needs moar baatorians and baernoloths (doesn't everything?).

afroakuma
2010-06-30, 11:41 PM
Don't know much about Sorel, so, fair enough.

I did write her up, you know...

Before that, she's referenced as the future Lord of Anarchy in Planes of Chaos (2E Planescape product).


Rennbuu and Chourst should revert to their true form more. Makes them more interesting. This may be my odd love of all things ancient in D&D coming to the forefront.

Do you even know what their true forms are?

arguskos
2010-06-30, 11:42 PM
I did write her up, you know...

Before that, she's referenced as the future Lord of Anarchy in Planes of Chaos (2E Planescape product).
Yeah, but I was unaware of how much of that is your invention and how much was canonical fact.


Do you even know what their true forms are?
No (never EVER seen their true shapes referenced anywhere), but they're probably cooler than them as giant frogs. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 12:13 AM
Yeah, but I was unaware of how much of that is your invention and how much was canonical fact.

That she is currently a Lord, that she is a she at all, and thus her powers and form are all my invention. That Sorel was a Lord-in-waiting, apprenticed to Ygorl, and being groomed to become Lord of Anarchy are all canonical.


No (never EVER seen their true shapes referenced anywhere)

Because they don't have any, at least according to canon.

According to afro-canon (which hey, I like better anyway), Rennbuu's true form is a comet of blinding rainbow light with two tentacular pseudopods that constantly emits random bolts of colored lightning around itself.

Chourst's true form is, of course, a red balloon with bunny ears. Sometimes. ;)

The Tygre
2010-07-01, 12:24 AM
The old ways must live on:

Ripta Planorum on Slaadi:http://web.archive.org/web/20050527073323/www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/slaadi.html

Ripta Planorum on L!mbo: http://web.archive.org/web/20091026181913/www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/onlimb-0.html

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 02:42 AM
Slaad are toads because Ygorl and Ssendam didn't want anything more powerful than them showing up so they forced Slaad to take and reproduce into those set forms.

I wondered if the "batrachi-slaadi issue" could be solved by making the batrachi into slaadi, who migrated to Faerun, and set up their own empire, before it collapsed and they were forced to migrate back.

The two signature features of batrachi-created races in Faerun, were "amphibious" and "shapechangers"

It might also explain the froggy appearence- they took the form of froglike creatures when they migrated there, and when they returned to Limbo to become slaad again, they were stuck with the froglike forms.

It might resolve the chronology issue.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 10:20 AM
I wondered if the "batrachi-slaadi issue" could be solved by making the batrachi into slaadi, who migrated to Faerun, and set up their own empire, before it collapsed and they were forced to migrate back.

The two signature features of batrachi-created races in Faerun, were "amphibious" and "shapechangers"

It might also explain the froggy appearence- they took the form of froglike creatures when they migrated there, and when they returned to Limbo to become slaad again, they were stuck with the froglike forms.

It might resolve the chronology issue.

Problem is again that the only Batrachi we've seen (as far as I know) doesn't line up with Slaad stats.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 10:28 AM
Meh. There's no issue except that someone decided to be a little too clever in a silly direction. There is only an issue if you try to include 4E canon backwards, which... yeah.

Anyways, the two are distinct races. I might accept that neraphim have some relation to or descent from the ancient batrachi, but they are clearly a largely-extinct mortal progenitor race, without any notable chaotic heritage, and slaadi are of course exemplars.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 10:28 AM
Its not that big a difference (immunity to fire, no immunity to sonic)- maybe getting that fire immunity came at a cost?


One interesting 4E thing, is that standard setting, and Faerun setting, give him different origins. In standard 4E (The Plane Below) he is "old as the universe" and called a slaad lord.

In FRCS, he's actually listed with the primordials, and called an "ascended batrachi lord"

So, even in 4E, there's two versions of his history.

Still, I'd probably say the simplest way is for the "normal batrachi" to be neraphim, for the neraphim to be "slaadkin" rather than true slaadi, and for "slaad lord" to be equivalent to "demon prince" (mortal souls can eventually become these) whereas Ssendem, Ygorl, etc are more like "obyrith lords"- ancient beings from the very beginning of the multiverse.

However, it's possible that using "slaad lord" this way is unsatisfactory.

Still- I like the notion that it could work this way. But that might only be me.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 10:35 AM
Its not that big a difference (immunity to fire, no immunity to sonic)- maybe getting that fire immunity came at a cost?


One interesting 4E thing, is that standard setting, and Faerun setting, give him different origins. In standard 4E (The Plane Below) he is "old as the universe" and called a slaad lord.

In FRCS, he's actually listed with the primordials, and called an "ascended batrachi lord"

So, even in 4E, there's two versions of his history.

Still, I'd probably say the simplest way is for the "normal batrachi" to be neraphim, for the neraphim to be "slaadkin" rather than true slaadi, and for "slaad lord" to be equivalent to "demon prince" (mortal souls can eventually become these) whereas Ssendem, Ygorl, etc are more like "obyrith lords"- ancient beings from the very beginning of the multiverse.

However, it's possible that using "slaad lord" this way is unsatisfactory.

Still- I like the notion that it could work this way. But that might only be me.

Eh, like me and Afro have said Hamm, we don't mix 4E and 3.5.

But while its potentially possible for a mortal to become a slaad lord (this is Limbo after all), I doubt it ever occurs. Ygorl is viciously defensive of his position of power in Limbo and he'll eliminate anything that threatens that position.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 10:41 AM
True. "Bazim-Gorag is an honorary slaad lord" is a nice idea, but may not entirely make sense in the context of the existing info about slaadi.

MM3 introduced Golden Slaadi- who are very reminicent of Ssendem- more jellylike than normal slaadi, with even more chaotic powers than most- and when bloodied they collapse into a huge golden blob which is still very dangerous.

4E may be getting more like 3rd ed as time goes by.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 10:41 AM
Remember, slaadi are not like tanar'ri or baatezu; they are an origin race of exemplars, much like the obyriths.

Anyway, the thread title states "3.5," so... 4E is somewhat off topic.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 10:45 AM
true- a mortal transforming into an obyrith is much harder to justify than a mortal transforming into a tanar'ri.

Are Chaonds (MM2) evidence that slaadi hybridize with mortals? If so- what would a half-slaad be? How about a 3/4 slaad- would it qualify as enough a slaad, that a very powerful one could ascend to "slaad lord ranking"?

Or should "slaad lord" be reserved only for the ancient ones, a bit like "obyrith lord"?

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 10:47 AM
true- a mortal transforming into an obyrith is much harder to justify than a mortal transforming into a tanar'ri.

Are Chaonds (MM2) evidence that slaadi hybridize with mortals? If so- what would a half-slaad be? How about a 3/4 slaad- would it qualify as enough a slaad, that a very powerful one could ascend to "slaad lord ranking"?

Or should "slaad lord" be reserved only for the ancient ones, a bit like "obyrith lord"?

Chaonds and Half-Slaad probably are born in the same manner as Half-Dragons and Half-Trolls/Fey.

Change Shape and a cruel mind set.

Edit:
@Akuma: I also said in the OP that I didn't care what edition or company the info came from. ^^;

But in this case we were arguing 3.5 canon, so 4E isn't valid.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 11:16 AM
Are Chaonds (MM2) evidence that slaadi hybridize with mortals?

Certainly.


If so- what would a half-slaad be?

Would be a half-anarchic creature, not a half-slaad specifically, much like the child of a tanar'ri and a human is a half-fiend, not a half-tanar'ri.


How about a 3/4 slaad- would it qualify as enough a slaad, that a very powerful one could ascend to "slaad lord ranking"?

No.


Or should "slaad lord" be reserved only for the ancient ones, a bit like "obyrith lord"?

It is tremendously difficult to become a slaad lord. There are only two ways to do it; one is to become a death slaad and then gather personal power, eventually figuring out how to bypass the Anathema and divest oneself of the extraneous taint, thus ascending into a pure slaad form beyond the restrictions of the Anathema. Many death slaadi who try this fail, either getting themselves ripped to shreds by the power of the Anathema, having their taint corrupt them completely, or else divesting themselves of the taint but being unable to breach the Anathema, thus becoming white slaad.

The second is only hypothetical at the moment, but it is theorized that indigo slaadi can eventually become slaad lords, though none of the extant lords have done so in this manner that we have knowledge of.

In both cases, the aspiring lord needs a chaos domain to seize.

Prior to the Anathema, slaadish could form spontaneously which had the power and unheld chaos domain to become a slaad lord instantaneously - Ssendam and Ygorl. Current slaadish are capped in power at Ideal - still a robust CR 19, but unable to access chaos domains. It's possible that, if Ssendam and Ygorl don't pay enough attention, one of the chaos domains could rip free and merge with an ideal slaadish, but so far they've kept it from happening.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 11:38 AM
The second is only hypothetical at the moment, but it is theorized that indigo slaadi can eventually become slaad lords, though none of the extant lords have done so in this manner that we have knowledge of.

What are indigo slaadi? Are they 2nd ed only, or 2nd ed versions of black slaadi?

The Epic Handbook lists White Slaadi as CR21 and Black Slaadi as CR25.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 11:44 AM
What are indigo slaadi? Are they 2nd ed only, or 2nd ed versions of black slaadi?

The Epic Handbook lists White Slaadi as CR21 and Black Slaadi as CR25.

Indigos are his creations as far as I'm aware.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 11:59 AM
What are indigo slaadi?

afro-canon slaadi. Homebrewed. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5057007#post5057007)

Disregarding those, only death slaadi can become slaad lords, but this is exceedingly rare. Most either become white slaadi, get killed off or try to become slaad lords and get caught by Ssendam or Ygorl.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 12:09 PM
The Wish-based ritual in Savage Species allows creatures to transform into other creatures- but due to the limitations of the ritual, sometimes special attacks or qualities are missing.

If the Batrachi used the ritual to all turn into death slaadi- and of those transformed death slaadi, only Bazim-Gorag rose to become a sort of slaad lord, this might resolve the contradiction.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 12:11 PM
The Wish-based ritual in Savage Species allows creatures to transform into other creatures- but due to the limitations of the ritual, sometimes special attacks or qualities are missing.

If the Batrachi used the ritual to all turn into death slaadi- and of those transformed death slaadi, only Bazim-Gorag rose to become a sort of slaad lord, this might resolve the contradiction.

Why? Why do you continue to push for this?

He's obviosuly not a slaad lord. His CR is equivalent to that of a white slaad, a being inferior to a slaad lord. They called him a slaad lord because they wanted something different from a demon, but since he's an Evil-typed outsider, he cannot be a slaad lord.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 12:13 PM
Evil-subtyped is the problem, not evil typed. Nowhere is it set in stone that Slaad Lords all have to be Chaotic Neutral as an alignment.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 12:14 PM
Evil-subtyped is the problem, not evil typed. Nowhere is it set in stone that Slaad Lords all have to be Chaotic Neutral as an alignment.

Well, you know that I meant "having the Evil subtype."

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 12:16 PM
Well, you know that I meant "having the Evil subtype."

I know, I'm just making it 100% clear that's what is meant so no misunderstandings are made.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 12:19 PM
Why? Why do you continue to push for this?

He's obviosuly not a slaad lord. His CR is equivalent to that of a white slaad, a being inferior to a slaad lord. They called him a slaad lord because they wanted something different from a demon, but since he's an Evil-typed outsider, he cannot be a slaad lord.

"Lords" can be inferior to standard specimens.

BoVD, for example- some of the demon lords are actually weaker than the most powerful demons.

In the Eberron Explorer's Handbook, the yugoloth ship captain doesn't have the Evil subtype- so possession (or absence) of a subtype, doesn't change the race of a creature. You can be a yugoloth without the Evil subtype- can you be a slaad with the evil subtype?

Step one- mutant two-head death slaad.
Step two- mutant gains unique powers over fire (possibly paying for them via losing something else
Step three- mutant gains the Evil subtype via being "tainted"

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 12:27 PM
"Lords" can be inferior to standard specimens.

In some cases, yes. Not in this case. "Slaad Lord" defines the most masterful examples of the purity of exemplar chaos, whereas other "lordships" establish the masters of planar domains or fiefdoms, e.g. Lords of the Nine, Demon Princes. Slaad Lords don't command anything, not even other slaadi, save that some beings nearby choose to obey them rather than deal with an irritable, powerful exemplar of pure chaos.


BoVD, for example- some of the demon lords are actually weaker than the most powerful demons.

Look to 3.5 conversions or re-ratings of standard-ranked fiends. The paeliryon and klurichir, for example, despite both being more powerful than their race's top dog (pit fiend and balor, respiectively), are both under CR 20 in their 3.5 incarnations/re-ratings.

In the Eberron Explorer's Handbook, the yugoloth ship captain doesn't have the Evil subtype

You're citing Eberron and 3.5 FR material as though it should have a bearing on what is effectively Planescape, when Eberron above all things should not, since it has its own cosmology entirely.

But you haven't answered my question:

Why is it so important to you that batrachi be related to slaad?

And equally:

Why is it so important that Bazim-Gorag be a Slaad Lord?

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 12:37 PM
Mostly because I haven't read much 2nd ed material, so I haven't seen anything that told me that slaad lords had to all be primordial entities of chaos (without any modern beings "ascending" to their ranks), and that there weren't any "fairly low power" slaad lords.

(At the time they were revised for 3.5 in the online WoTC supplement, the fiends you mention did not get their CRs changed. Only much later, in FC1 and FC2, did revisions change their CRs).

Having Champions of Ruin, I'd rather not have to replace "slaad lord" with "weird unique entity that isn't a slaad" every time I think about Bazim-Gorag.

There is some precedent for creatures being able to gain or lose properties such as alignment subtypes via magic- so most of the complaints about Bazim-Gorag's stats don't give me trouble.

Plus I like 3.5 ed Faerun fluff, mostly.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 12:40 PM
But doesn't other Faerun material state that Bazim-Gorag is a Batrachi and that Batrachi were commonly misinterpreted as Slaad because they were chaotic and were toadish in shape?

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 12:44 PM
Apart from that statement purported to be by Bazim-Gorag himself (in Grand History of the Realms), there isn't much about it.

I think there might be a download on Candlekeep about the History of the Batrachi, but I haven't read it yet.

Maybe the batrachi should be just treated as "pseudo-slaadi" creatures that tried to make themselves as slaadlike as possible, but weren't entirely successful.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 12:49 PM
Apart from that statement purported to be by Bazim-Gorag himself (in Grand History of the Realms), there isn't much about it.

I think there might be a download on Candlekeep about the History of the Batrachi, but I haven't read it yet.

Maybe the batrachi should be just treated as "pseudo-slaadi" creatures that tried to make themselves as slaadlike as possible, but weren't entirely successful.

Or just happened to be Chaotic and Toad shaped so mortals saw them as being Slaads.

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 12:52 PM
The wiki does say "creatures most sages confuse with the slaad" and calls him a "unique chaotic outsider"

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bazim-Gorag

I'm not sure where his natural ability to summon slaadi came from though.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 12:56 PM
I'm not sure where his natural ability to summon slaadi came from though.

They all gave him their truenames for teh lulz. It's chaotic! :smallwink:

But I think you guys are taking this a bit too seriously. I doubt the Slaad themselves care this much about their hierarchy.:smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-07-01, 12:58 PM
They all gave him their truenames for teh lulz. It's chaotic! :smallwink:

But I think you guys are taking this a bit too seriously. I doubt the Slaad themselves care this much about their hierarchy.:smalltongue:
Ygorl does, I'll guarantee that. Ssendam, ok, maybe not so much, being insane and everything. :smallamused:

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 01:02 PM
Mostly because I haven't read much 2nd ed material, so I haven't seen anything that told me that slaad lords had to all be primordial entities of chaos (without any modern beings "ascending" to their ranks), and that there weren't any "fairly low power" slaad lords.

3.5 material would indicate Bazim-Gorag as the only slaad lord by that reckoning, since to the best of my knowledge they never converted the original slaad lords.

However, discounting afro-canon, standing D&D canon as of 3.5 (via 2E) establishes that no new slaad lords can ascend at all, save perhaps Sorel, who has the endorsement and backing of an extant slaad lord. Ergo, outside of afro-canon, Bazim-Gorag could never make it, and within afro-canon he never will.


Having Champions of Ruin, I'd rather not have to replace "slaad lord" with "weird unique entity that isn't a slaad" every time I think about Bazim-Gorag.

Um, so... don't? I'm not trying to convince you of anything, since it's quite clear you have a different viewpoint from me; I'm just tired of feeling like you're trying to convince me.

Like I said, you can replace "slaad lord" with "slaad noble," "fiend," "demon," "arch-slaad," "mutant advanced slaad" or even "monkeybuttocks" if that's your preference (and in Slaad, that may very well be the name for their race...) or you can keep calling him slaad lord; I don't care, but I don't know who you're trying to convince of what, and it irks me that you keep pulling the conversation back to "so, batrachi could be slaadi if X" and "so, Bazim-Gorad could be a slaad lord because X".


Plus I like 3.5 ed Faerun fluff, mostly.

I like a great deal of what was presented in the FRCS, but Serpent Kingdoms is a pompous and self-serving "look at me I'm so clever" unification of everything snake, lizard and amphibian in D&D regardless of logic. Champions of Ruin has some good and useful material (Dendar and Kezef are entities I always wanted at my disposal) but they essentially culled Bazim-Gorag wholecloth from the Dungeon adventure that introduced him less than a year before.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 01:05 PM
3.5 material would indicate Bazim-Gorag as the only slaad lord by that reckoning, since to the best of my knowledge they never converted the original slaad lords.

Isn't there a general rule that anything that wasn't updated is still fair game in 3.5?

(With psionics being the [un]fortunate exception)

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 01:10 PM
Isn't there a general rule that anything that wasn't updated is still fair game in 3.5?

(With psionics being the [un]fortunate exception)

As regards... third parties converting it? I seem to recall something of the sort...

arguskos
2010-07-01, 01:13 PM
I like a great deal of what was presented in the FRCS, but Serpent Kingdoms is a pompous and self-serving "look at me I'm so clever" unification of everything snake, lizard and amphibian in D&D regardless of logic. Champions of Ruin has some good and useful material (Dendar and Kezef are entities I always wanted at my disposal) but they essentially culled Bazim-Gorag wholecloth from the Dungeon adventure that introduced him less than a year before.
Serpent Kingdoms wasn't really that bad. It's perspective was of COURSE going to favor the Scaled Ones, seeing as that's what the entire book is about, lending is a heavily unbalanced feel (and the crunch was questionable in some places, not that as bad as widely believed). If you don't like Yuan-ti though, well, it wasn't gonna win hearts and minds. :smallbiggrin:

Champions of Ruin was awesome. Ityak-Ortheel was awesome. So were Dendar, the Night Serpent, Kezef the Chaos Hound, Aumvor the Undying, and Eltab, Lord of the Hidden Layer. Even Malkizid was alright. There are lots of great spells and feats in CoR. A good book, one of my favorites.

The Tygre
2010-07-01, 02:07 PM
I... -liked- Serpent Kingdoms. And aside from a throw off line about the Batrachi that everyone agreed to ignore, even in Faerun, I don't see what it has to do with Slaadi.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 02:16 PM
I think most people disliked Serpent Kingdoms because it in part brought us Pun-Pun.

As for why we're discussing this book I doth not remember.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 02:16 PM
Serpent Kingdoms wasn't really that bad.

Pun-Pun has decreed this to be truth.


It's perspective was of COURSE going to favor the Scaled Ones, seeing as that's what the entire book is about

No, but that's my point; some random author was like, "look how clever I can be: all of this is now from the World Serpent. Including the frogs and the lizards, because those are... like snakes. Including the Greyhawk stuff as FR canon, because... snakes."

That's what I hate about so much 3.5 stuff; lack of quality control, editing, consistency and a real failure to exploit all the tantalizing hooks left in earlier works, instead trying to make new ones (and not often succeeding). I would have loved some baatorian attention, or some yugoloth development, or a few possible notes on the Uluu Thalongh, or on the Great Glacier and Auril vs. the sleeping Ulutiu, or... etc.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 02:21 PM
Pun-Pun has decreed this to be truth.



No, but that's my point; some random author was like, "look how clever I can be: all of this is now from the World Serpent. Including the frogs and the lizards, because those are... like snakes. Including the Greyhawk stuff as FR canon, because... snakes."

That's what I hate about so much 3.5 stuff; lack of quality control, editing, consistency and a real failure to exploit all the tantalizing hooks left in earlier works, instead trying to make new ones (and not often succeeding). I would have loved some baatorian attention, or some yugoloth development, or a few possible notes on the Uluu Thalongh, or on the Great Glacier and Auril vs. the sleeping Ulutiu, or... etc.

I would have loved something like the Fiendish Compendiums but for Slaad. :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 02:22 PM
As regards... third parties converting it? I seem to recall something of the sort...

No, not 3rd parties. I meant "there is no 3.5. version of this, so go ahead and use it in your 3.5 game."

For example, everything in BoVD; various 3.5 supplements reference it.
Dragon Compendium and some other books as well.

However, much of the material in Sword & Fist and Tome & Blood was updated, so you would have to use the 3.5 versions of those things. That's what I was getting at.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 02:26 PM
No, not 3rd parties. I meant "there is no 3.5. version of this, so go ahead and use it in your 3.5 game."

For example, everything in BoVD; various 3.5 supplements reference it.
Dragon Compendium and some other books as well.

However, much of the material in Sword & Fist and Tome & Blood was updated, so you would have to use the 3.5 versions of those things. That's what I was getting at.

But that's comparing 3.0 and 3.5.

Afro meant 2E and 3E.

afroakuma
2010-07-01, 02:30 PM
No, not 3rd parties. I meant "there is no 3.5. version of this, so go ahead and use it in your 3.5 game."

For example, everything in BoVD; various 3.5 supplements reference it.
Dragon Compendium and some other books as well.

Oh, yes.

The Fiendish Codexes contained an index indicating the corrected CRs of prior printed fiends from 3.0 and 3.5 sources based on system updates, so even using their 3.0 incarnations, there was still 3.5 material to supercede that, at least.

Devils_Advocate
2010-07-01, 04:41 PM
Of all the outsiders, I've never really known how to approach slaadi. I get the sense that they are just generically dangerous, but could you do a roleplaying encounter with them? How would they act?

"Well, I'm selling it for 2200 gp. So your 15% would be... 350 gp*" He hands Iltinger some bills and coins.

*(He's a slaad. He cares not for your lawful math)
- Sigil Prep (http://www.sigilprep.com/)

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 06:43 PM
- Sigil Prep (http://www.sigilprep.com/)

And charging 15.90-> infinity % instead of 15% is chaotic how?

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 02:54 AM
No, but that's my point; some random author was like, "look how clever I can be: all of this is now from the World Serpent. Including the frogs and the lizards, because those are... like snakes. Including the Greyhawk stuff as FR canon, because... snakes."
.

Batrachi and Sarrukh are two different creator races.

Sarrukh created most of the reptilian races.

Batrachi created most of the amphibious or aquatic races.

(I think much older TSR Faerun material, pre 3rd ed, might have actually mentioned 3 creator races- an amphibian, an avian, and a reptilian).

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Creator_Races

I'm not sure what deity the batrachi followed- but it wasn't the world serpent.

Moving on- if you dislike the whole batrachi concept- maybe do what 4E did, and give Bazim-Gorag a different origin in the standard setting. And adjust his stats to match the slaadi exactly.

In Faerun- he's an ascended batrachi lord and listed with the primordials.
In standard 4E- he's an ancient slaad lord, old as the universe- a contemporary of Ygorl.

You don't have to of course- it's your choice.

As to why I suggest this- I figure if slaad lords are going to be statted out- might as well do as many as can be justified.

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 12:46 PM
hamishspence: quite simply put, in my canon, Bazim-Gorag has not been and will never be a slaad lord. I have no plans to change this, now or ever.

So you may as well stop suggesting it to me.

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 01:26 PM
OK.

The suggestions were primarily for those people who might want to include Bazim Gorag because he's in 4th ed as a slaad lord, but dislike the batrachi concept- not necessarily you specifically.

What changes have you made to 2nd ed canon? I noticed a few extra colours of slaad.

The Tygre
2010-07-02, 01:36 PM
That always confused me about the creator races. Amphibians, I mean. Would they be more appropriate as Sarrukh creations, or Batrachi?

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 01:41 PM
Batrachi creations. FRCS 3rd ed mentions an "amphibious race of shapechangers" (later called the batrachi in Serpent Kingdoms)

who left behind descendants "the locathah in the sea and dopplegangers on land"

Serpent Kingdoms widened the list of races associated with the batrachi to include almost anything amphibian, piscine, or shapeshifting.

The list included: bullywugs, dopplegangers, sivs, kopru, kuo-toa, locathah, and tako.

However, the concept of Faerun having creator races (amphibian, reptilian, and avian) predates 3rd ed.

arguskos
2010-07-02, 01:45 PM
Pun-Pun has decreed this to be truth.
http://captionsearch.com/pix/2rub7eoeem.jpg


No, but that's my point; some random author was like, "look how clever I can be: all of this is now from the World Serpent. Including the frogs and the lizards, because those are... like snakes. Including the Greyhawk stuff as FR canon, because... snakes."
This is not much different from most of 3.5, so calling out one book seems silly. Happily you address this in a moment...


That's what I hate about so much 3.5 stuff; lack of quality control, editing, consistency and a real failure to exploit all the tantalizing hooks left in earlier works, instead trying to make new ones (and not often succeeding). I would have loved some baatorian attention, or some yugoloth development, or a few possible notes on the Uluu Thalongh, or on the Great Glacier and Auril vs. the sleeping Ulutiu, or... etc.
In order to your points:
-Yes, quality control was an issue. 2e was no better, and 4e isn't much better either. If you wanted QC, play another game. Personally, I like this aspect of 3.5 (it's like a mini-scavenger hunt each time I crack a new book :smallbiggrin:), but sure, it's an issue.
-Editing+WotC=Lols ensue. Not gonna even debate this one.
-Consistency I'm not sure I agree with entirely. Now, there is the issue all games face where different authors write different books and thus they don't sync up perfectly, but that's not a major sin in my eyes. If that bugs you, ok, well, fair enough then.
-Hook exploitation is one I fully disagree with. I'd LOVE to see all that stuff detailed as well (especially the Yugoloths/Baatorians/Uluu Thalongh), but the design team picked things that they personally were like "hey, that's pretty cool, let's make a book about it!" which strikes me as the sign of a team that's at the very least involved and excited about what they're doing, which I can't fault them for. Every game has stuff I'd rather they'd focused on, and stuff that I'm just like "wtf is this about guys?!", and really, they hit enough interesting stuff and left the rest open for folks like you and I to explore that I'm not displeased. Disappointed mildly, maybe. Angry/upset? Nah.

Also, call me strange, but I liked the concept of the Creator Races, and I liked that what they became is debatable. The Avians are... somewhere (implied they flew to Anchorome) doing something. The Sarrukh left the plane almost entirely. The Batrachi evolved into... stuff, the exact nature of which is debated since no one knows anything about them. The Fey left for Faerie eons ago. The fifth slot is debated between Humans and the ancestors of the Dragons. I like the air of mystery these groups evoke (except for if Humans are race 5 :smallannoyed:).

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 02:08 PM
Also, call me strange, but I liked the concept of the Creator Races, and I liked that what they became is debatable. The Avians are... somewhere (implied they flew to Anchorome) doing something. The Sarrukh left the plane almost entirely. The Batrachi evolved into... stuff, the exact nature of which is debated since no one knows anything about them. The Fey left for Faerie eons ago. The fifth slot is debated between Humans and the ancestors of the Dragons. I like the air of mystery these groups evoke (except for if Humans are race 5 :smallannoyed:).

I liked the concept too- and its handling in The Grand History of the Realms, complete with callbacks to Dragon Magazine:

(such as a plague decimating a faction of the Aaeree, who turned to the demon lord Pazrael (Pazuzu) for salvation- in Dragon: Ecology of the Kenku, the kenku were saved from a plague by Pazuzu, didn't do what he wanted, and were cursed with the loss of flight, with hands instead of wings)

However- maybe this should have its own thread- we don't want to further derail this one since it is supposed to be about slaadi.

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 02:23 PM
arguskos: I'm not going to debate on my preferences with you. Suffice it to say that I don't particularly like the book.


What changes have you made to 2nd ed canon? I noticed a few extra colours of slaad.

Several new colors of slaad, a new slaad lord, rules and expanded lore for true slaadi (slaadish), adding a second layer to Limbo, and a few eventual planned expansions.

Ultimately, I plan to redo all of the Planes to an updated, "4E-if-4E-wasn't-4E" timeline and standard canon, complete with accommodations for new rulesets introduced in 3.5 (ToB, incarnum etc.) and development for the Planes that never got any love.

arguskos
2010-07-02, 02:35 PM
arguskos: I'm not going to debate on my preferences with you. Suffice it to say that I don't particularly like the book.
Oh, I'm not trying to sell you on Serpent Kingdoms, I was just saying what I felt about the issues that are espoused about 3.5. :smallwink:

I've long since stopped trying to sell you on any damn thing, after all. :smallwink:

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 02:39 PM
Oh, I'm not trying to sell you on Serpent Kingdoms, I was just saying what I felt about the issues that are espoused about 3.5. :smallwink:

Well, look at Dragons of Faerun. That was awesome; I could've used more converted dragons, but I loved the huuuuuge and well-researched index at the end detailing all canonical FR dragons. It adds a certain epic nature to dragonkind when, if you encounter one, it's on a list.


I've long since stopped trying to sell you on any damn thing, after all. :smallwink:

You should be trying to sell me on not letting your party get killed by modrons. :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-02, 02:50 PM
Hey Akuma, did you ever mentioned Gormeel Slaad in your rewrite? I don't remember.

arguskos
2010-07-02, 03:07 PM
Well, look at Dragons of Faerun. That was awesome; I could've used more converted dragons, but I loved the huuuuuge and well-researched index at the end detailing all canonical FR dragons. It adds a certain epic nature to dragonkind when, if you encounter one, it's on a list.
I LOVE that book. I wanted more details about Palarandusk though. :smallfrown:


You should be trying to sell me on not letting your party get killed by modrons. :smalltongue:
Sooooooo, about those modrons.....

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 03:10 PM
Ultimately, I plan to redo all of the Planes to an updated, "4E-if-4E-wasn't-4E" timeline and standard canon

Does that mean taking the various 4E concepts (primordials vs gods, mind flayers invading from the Far Realm, etc) but fitting them into the 3E timeline?

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 03:38 PM
Does that mean taking the various 4E concepts (primordials vs gods, mind flayers invading from the Far Realm, etc) but fitting them into the 3E timeline?

No, in fact it means pretty much the exact opposite, namely: assuming that no 4th Edition has ever been published in any capacity; that all material produced for it does not exist; and assuming that D&D is transitioning to a Fourth Edition in the proximate future.

So, no Primordials, no Spellplague, etc.

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 03:38 PM
I was trying to figure out what "4E if 4E wasn't 4E" meant.

Unless its mechanical only- from the point of view of a 3rd ed reader, its a whole new edition- but all the main fluff is from 1st-3rd ed?

EDIT: Apparently so.

Given the various 3rd ed semi-contradictions (Asmodeus being the most obvious example) which sources are likely to be used?

4E core went with Asmodeus the ex-Angel (FC2), 4E Faerun with Asmodeus the Fallen Greater Deity (Manual of the Planes).

What version are you going with- FC2, Manual of the Planes, or much older, maybe the Serpents of Law concept, or even the one where Asmodeus wrested the plane from a previous archdevil ruler?

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 03:44 PM
Asmodeus was not the original ruler of Baator by any means, and that's all I'lll say on the subject until I do my project on the Hells. :smallwink:

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 03:46 PM
So- what changes will replace the 4E changes?

And will some vague things be settled (like Asmodeus's origin) or will they continue to be left vague?

EDIT: apparently we'll have to wait and see.

In 3.5 (thanks to Elder Evils) we are told that Zargon ruled in Baator before Asmodeus, but Asmodeus was the first baatezu ruler.

afroakuma
2010-07-02, 04:22 PM
So- what changes will replace the 4E changes?

Well, instead of "changes" on the order of collapsing all the planes into the Astral and the Elemental Chaos and adding the Feywild and Shadowfell, it's going to be merely "updates".


In 3.5 (thanks to Elder Evils) we are told that Zargon ruled in Baator before Asmodeus, but Asmodeus was the first baatezu ruler.

Zargon is lame.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-02, 11:15 PM
Hey Akuma, did you ever mentioned Gormeel Slaad in your rewrite? I don't remember.

So I'm guessing no?

Coidzor
2010-07-03, 01:20 AM
Well, instead of "changes" on the order of collapsing all the planes into the Astral and the Elemental Chaos and adding the Feywild and Shadowfell, it's going to be merely "updates".



Zargon is lame.

Well, his momma named him Zargon. SO, yeah....:smallamused:

true_shinken
2010-07-03, 07:23 AM
I'm currently using slaadi on my campaign to create an "Alien-like" (Alien as in the movie Alien) feel. They infect people than burst out of them... a few slaadi start attacking in a city controlled by the mob, the mob forces people into silence to avoid panic... and suddenly you have hundreds of slaadi running around and wreacking major havok.
That said, I'm fine with them as written. For the role I want them to play, cosmology is inconsequential. I believe that's why WotC never cared much about it in 3.5; they don't need a lot of cosmology backup to be giant frogs that freak people out.

I do miss the random slaad table from 3.0 though. I just don't use because it's too much trouble, but damn it was interesting.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 07:38 AM
Zargon is lame.

Maybe- but he has a long history in D&D- mostly in Mystara though. In effect, Elder Evils imported him from Mystara to core.

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 09:09 AM
Maybe- but he has a long history in D&D- mostly in Mystara though. In effect, Elder Evils imported him from Mystara to core.

Yes, but not as the original ruler of the ancient baatorians... in Lost City he was just a trapped subterranean demonic entity. I rather like the callback to an old and classic module; I just don't like that they decided that adding a sign saying "ancient baatorian" to his back would transfer the mystique of that concept to him.

So, while in afro-canon Zargon certainly exists, his job is merely to be an Elder Evil.

Bendraesar: No, I did not. They'll likely slip in when I do the update, though.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 09:15 AM
What about ancient baatorians themselves- as mentioned in FC1 and FC2 (according to FC1, possibly the creation of a races of NE fiends called the baernoloths) ? Do they appear?

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 09:31 AM
What about ancient baatorians themselves- as mentioned in FC1 and FC2 (according to FC1, possibly the creation of a races of NE fiends called the baernoloths) ? Do they appear?

No comment.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 09:43 AM
The Great Wheel- does anything predate it in this cosmology- like the draedens, or the slaadi?

In Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, one of the riddle questions was:

"What five races are signatories of the Draeden Compact governing the transmission of pre-Great Wheel arcane secrets?"

(the answer was- rilmani, keepers, mapmakers, devetes, githzerai)

So, going by this, there was a period prior to the Great Wheel.

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 10:11 AM
I think we're getting vastly off-topic here... :smalltongue:

I may well have to start a new thread for this at some point.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 10:14 AM
Maybe put a "Timeline of Slaad History" bit in the slaad section-

when Ssendem and Ygorl came into being (and possibly other slaad lords shortly afterward), when the Great Wheel formed, the Spawning stone and the runes on it, and how they limited slaad potential, the first Death Slaadi and what force tainted them, the Age Before Ages and what role (if any) the slaadi played in the war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos.

And so on.

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 10:20 AM
what role (if any) the slaadi played in the war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos.

That's on-topic enough, and definitely a big one to cover, since it is of preeminent importance in the full project's background.

Coidzor
2010-07-03, 10:55 AM
Well, the war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos seems almost like it's what cemented the Great Wheel in place. Or was part of the Pre-Great Wheel existence of the multiverse (unless the transition to the Great Wheel is what set off the situation where only the inner planes were kicking around for a while until they finished making the infinite breadth of material planes for peeps to kick around in.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-03, 04:51 PM
That's on-topic enough, and definitely a big one to cover, since it is of preeminent importance in the full project's background.

What is this war exactly?

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 04:59 PM
The war was very early, but transpired after the formation of the current multiverse, hence the continued existence of its participants in the multiverse.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-03, 05:02 PM
The war was very early, but transpired after the formation of the current multiverse, hence the continued existence of its participants in the multiverse.

Erm, that sort of answered my question.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 05:26 PM
Fiendish Codex 1 has some details, and I'm told that the Savage Tide adventure path has others.

I'm not sure how much of it was in 2nd ed.

To sum up- the Plane of Air had a race of very powerful, lawful outsiders called the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. The Abyss was led by a demon called the Queen of Chaos (she overthrew the previous ruler of the Abyss, Obox-ob, and installed her own creation, Miska the Wolf Spider, as Prince of Demons.

The Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos warred, before the Queen of Chaos, and her general Miska the Wolf Spider, were finally defeated on the Greyhawk world, Oerth. After Miska was killed, the Queen fled into the Abyss and hid out.

The eladrins chose that point to invade the Abyss, devastating it's original rules, the obyriths (ancient demons). This allowed the obyriths' creations, the tanar'ri, to overthrow them, becoming the new masters of the Abyss.

(Some of the other elemental races played a part in the war- siding with, or against, the Wind Dukes).

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-03, 05:40 PM
Fiendish Codex 1 has some details, and I'm told that the Savage Tide adventure path has others.

I'm not sure how much of it was in 2nd ed.

To sum up- the Plane of Air had a race of very powerful, lawful outsiders called the Wind Dukes of Aaqa. The Abyss was led by a demon called the Queen of Chaos (she overthrew the previous ruler of the Abyss, Obox-ob, and installed her own creation, Miska the Wolf Spider, as Prince of Demons.

The Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos warred, before the Queen of Chaos, and her general Miska the Wolf Spider, were finally defeated on the Greyhawk world, Oerth. After Miska was killed, the Queen fled into the Abyss and hid out.

The eladrins chose that point to invade the Abyss, devastating it's original rules, the obyriths (ancient demons). This allowed the obyriths' creations, the tanar'ri, to overthrow them, becoming the new masters of the Abyss.

(Some of the other elemental races played a part in the war- siding with, or against, the Wind Dukes).


And I'm guessing the Dukes were Djinn?

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 06:15 PM
And I'm guessing the Dukes were Djinn?

Nope, vaati.

Yora
2010-07-03, 06:24 PM
They never appear as creatures in any WotC books, except as very brief and obscure references in the FCs and Elder Evils, I think.
Some stuff about them here (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wind_Duke).

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 06:35 PM
They were printed in the... MCA4 in 2nd Edition, IIRC, and before that in the adventure "the Rod of Seven Parts."