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Morph Bark
2010-06-27, 07:00 PM
Are there any spells that don't allow for SR or saves and do not require an attack roll, but are still offensive in some way?

If so, what are they and what's their source?

jokey665
2010-06-27, 07:04 PM
I don't know of any spells, but I know of a Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) like that.

Morph Bark
2010-06-27, 07:06 PM
I don't know of any spells, but I know of a Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) like that.

Powers work too. :smallbiggrin:

It's simply about the principle, really. I'm trying to figure out some things for an NPC and this factors in heavily.

Critical
2010-06-27, 07:07 PM
Benign Transpostition while flying over opponents head with your largest and heaviest party member as the target. :smallwink:

Eurus
2010-06-27, 07:07 PM
I don't know of any spells, but I know of a Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) like that.

...Wow. I always thought that was reflex half. Why on earth isn't it reflex half? :smalleek:

That said... summoning might arguably qualify for what you're asking.

Critical
2010-06-27, 07:10 PM
...Wow. I always thought that was reflex half. Why on earth isn't it reflex half? :smalleek:


These razorlike crystals slice everything in their path.

That's why. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-27, 07:11 PM
Love's Pain, from BoVD. It doesn't allow SR/saves on the person it damages, and there's no limit on the distance between the two of you. Just Mindrape someone to be the lover, and long distance nuke away.

taltamir
2010-06-27, 07:15 PM
Benign Transpostition while flying over opponents head with your largest and heaviest party member as the target. :smallwink:

requires that the people to be switched both be touch the ground, or in contact with each other via a rope, etc.

Also, why wouldn't it require an attack roll? you are trying to hit object A with object B...

BTW, using shrink item on boulders is easier.


Love's Pain, from BoVD. It doesn't allow SR/saves on the person it damages, and there's no limit on the distance between the two of you. Just Mindrape someone to be the lover, and long distance nuke away.

to explain further.
Love's pain is a spell that is cast on Person A, who loves person B. Casting it on person A harms person B, no saves, no distance limits, no nothing. Just damage.
Mindrape makes you know everything that the target knows and everything about them, and rewrite their memories, skill, personality, etc as you wish. Find a random peasant, cast mindrape on them to love the target you wish kill, then cast love's pain said peasant. If you are nice, follow it by casting mindrape again to make them forget it ever happened and stop loving that person.

balistafreak
2010-06-27, 07:16 PM
...Wow. I always thought that was reflex half. Why on earth isn't it reflex half? :smalleek:

The damage output is comparable to Burning Hands, but it's less efficient than Burning Hands assuming the enemy fails his save (on Burning Hands, that is).

Burning Hands can deal 5d4 damage max, for a 1st level slot, aka 1 PP.

This only ever deals 3d4 for 3 PP, kind of like a 2nd level slot.

If it had a "Reflex halves" clause, it would suck. A lot.

CubeB
2010-06-27, 07:17 PM
Summon Swarm works as well. Warlocks can get it at will at level 1.

taltamir
2010-06-27, 07:18 PM
i can't believe noone mentioned force missile mage

The below info is incorrect. FMM only gives a bonus to bypassing SR, and bypasses the protection offered by shield or brooch of shielding. Not those offered by other spells, SR, etc

Force missile mage is a PrC that specializes in magic missile. Magic missile is blockable by:
1. SR
2. Shield spell
3. Other spells that specifically block it
4. Spells that block spells under a certain level (such as orb of involnerability)

Well, force missile mage lets you:
1. Bypass all of those with 100% certainty (need a check, I think spellcraft, trivial to ensure you always succeed)
2. lets you choose different types of damage for magic missile. (of little use since nothing is immune to force damage AFAIK)

Basically, you choose a target and it takes damage, there is absolutely nothing it can do to stop it. Maybe counterspell or spell reflection but I think FMM lets you bypass those too... mmm, not sure. Lemme look it up.

Douglas
2010-06-27, 07:18 PM
Hail of Stone, from Spell Compendium. As additional points, this spell does untyped damage, hits an area, and is an instantaneous conjuration. It's pretty much the perfect "nothing resists this - no, not even that" spell, with the unfortunate exception of Globe of Invulnerability because it's merely level 1. Heighten Spell can deal with that problem, though. Sadly, its damage caps at 5d4 and it has a 5 gp material component.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-27, 07:20 PM
Benign Transpostition while flying over opponents head with your largest and heaviest party member as the target. :smallwink:

Indeed, as long as said party member is dead. :smallwink:

PId6
2010-06-27, 07:21 PM
i can't believe noone mentioned force missile mage
Because it allows SR?

taltamir
2010-06-27, 07:22 PM
Because it allows SR?

force missile mage is a PrC that allows your magic missile to bypass SR and anything else that would stop a magic missile.

PId6
2010-06-27, 07:25 PM
force missile mage is a PrC that allows your magic missile to bypass SR and anything else that would stop a magic missile.
No it doesn't. It grants +2 to SR checks for Magic Missile; that's it.

taltamir
2010-06-27, 07:27 PM
No it doesn't. It grants +2 to SR checks for Magic Missile; that's it.

you are right, I remembered incorrectly...
if anyone interested, google force missile mage, the first result is a pdf with the class description

Doc Roc
2010-06-27, 08:04 PM
Spellwarp Sniper + Surge of fortune + SoD of choice?
It depresses me that this combo, while hilariously devastating in most situations, it is vulnerable to miss chances, and a few effects that impede target acquisition. For pure killtasmic action, I recommend the already mentioned Love's Pain + Mindrape combo meal.

Where you mind rape yourself into loving your opponent most.

Yeah....

taltamir
2010-06-27, 08:14 PM
Where you mind rape yourself into loving your opponent most.

I hope you mean to say "where you mind rape a random peasant"

Greenish
2010-06-27, 08:16 PM
Sadly, its damage caps at 5d4That's what metamagic is for.

Flickerdart
2010-06-27, 08:18 PM
Does Unname offer a save or SR?

taltamir
2010-06-27, 08:20 PM
Does Unname offer a save or SR?

i think you mean "word of unmaking" from the truenamer. I believe it offers save or SR. But it is actually quite good in that it erases them from existence. Not even the gods can restore someone you unmake.

Rothen
2010-06-27, 08:22 PM
Hail of Stone, from Spell Compendium. As additional points, this spell does untyped damage, hits an area, and is an instantaneous conjuration. It's pretty much the perfect "nothing resists this - no, not even that" spell, with the unfortunate exception of Globe of Invulnerability because it's merely level 1. Heighten Spell can deal with that problem, though. Sadly, its damage caps at 5d4 and it has a 5 gp material component.

Reserves of Strength it up, I'd say. It's a feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which - due to bad wording - allows you to surpass caps like that.

Seffbasilisk
2010-06-27, 08:23 PM
Storm Bolt, reserve feat from Complete Mage.

Does a line, no save, no attack roll, no SR, no AoOs for activating...only thing that stops it is electricity resistance/immunity.

Beautiful for the peasants hiding in the field chucking rocks and mud-globs at the party.

Flickerdart
2010-06-27, 08:31 PM
i think you mean "word of unmaking" from the truenamer. I believe it offers save or SR. But it is actually quite good in that it erases them from existence. Not even the gods can restore someone you unmake.
No, if I meant the crummy Word of Unmaking, I'd have said that. I mean Unname, the spell. Page 260.

Unfortunately, it seems to allow both a save and SR. What a crappy 9th level spell.

Cespenar
2010-06-27, 08:36 PM
There's a small issue with the Love's Pain/Mindrape combo. You can't manufacture true love.

:smalltongue:

Lhurgyof
2010-06-27, 08:43 PM
Swarm of crystals can be pretty fun. :D

Edit: What's Heat's Treasure Lost, again? The one that destroys their best magic item? Is there any save/sr on that?

PId6
2010-06-27, 08:44 PM
There's a small issue with the Love's Pain/Mindrape combo. You can't manufacture true love.
Well good thing the spell doesn't require that then.

It works on closest friend or dearest loved one, so you can just Mindrape away their friends and make your target the only friend they have, and that'd work perfectly fine for Love's Pain purposes.

Cespenar
2010-06-27, 08:47 PM
Well good thing the spell doesn't require that then.

It works on closest friend or dearest loved one, so you can just Mindrape away their friends and make your target the only friend they have, and that'd work perfectly fine for Love's Pain purposes.

...

You actually went and wrote up a serious, thought-out answer to that? :smallbiggrin:

awa
2010-06-27, 08:53 PM
you could easily argue that their not really their friend they just think that becuase of your magic.

taltamir
2010-06-27, 08:56 PM
you could easily argue that their not really their friend they just think that becuase of your magic.

mind rape is an instantanous spell. your magic is gone, them loving the target is the result of the spell, like how being "dead" can be a result of a spell, "dead" is the current condition, and it is as real a death as if it was caused by a sword.

awa
2010-06-27, 09:04 PM
the spell can still be broken and friend and love one are more subjective terms then dead

PId6
2010-06-27, 09:06 PM
...

You actually went and wrote up a serious, thought-out answer to that? :smallbiggrin:
You might not have been serious, but someone probably thought the same. This is the internet, after all.


you could easily argue that their not really their friend they just think that becuase of your magic.

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly).
If a 1st level spell can make friends via magic, why can't a 9th level spell do the same?

awa
2010-06-27, 09:09 PM
it makes them think they are your friend im saying that with something as nebulous as love and friendship magically altering their memories might not be considered true friendship

PId6
2010-06-27, 09:18 PM
it makes them think they are your friend im saying that with something as nebulous as love and friendship magically altering their memories might not be considered true friendship
Then what in the world is "true friendship"? If you think you're friends with someone and they secretly don't really like you, are they safe from the spell? What if you don't use magic to convince someone, and simply convince them to be your friend through words? Would they be considered your friend then, and if so what is the difference? What if your friend/family member is an amnesiac, and you've tended to them every day and care about them. Since they don't remember you, does that mean that they're not really your friend/loved one? You're making a distinction that's nowhere in the spell text and is terribly cliche besides.

PersonMan
2010-06-27, 09:18 PM
it makes them think they are your friend im saying that with something as nebulous as love and friendship magically altering their memories might not be considered true friendship

Friendship and love are from memories. Who cares how fake those memories are? To the mindraped person those are real memories, and so the feelings are real too.

taltamir
2010-06-27, 09:19 PM
it makes them think they are your friend im saying that with something as nebulous as love and friendship magically altering their memories might not be considered true friendship

is death wrought by a spell not true death then?

besides... the spell "loves pain" does not care if they are "true" or not... and even if it cared, spells affect each other all the time. There is no reason why the spell "mind rape" cannot alter the result of another spell cast on the same target later on, namely: "love's pain"

PersonMan
2010-06-27, 09:20 PM
is death wrought by a spell not true death then?

Obviously not. With something as nebulous as death and...er...un-living-ness, magically altering their biology might not be considered true death.

Runestar
2010-06-27, 09:20 PM
Not entirely relevant, but a creature with SLAs can take a feat to turn them into SU abilities.

Imagine a balor spamming blasphemy which ignores sr and greater spell immunity. Or a succubus using a charm monster which cannot be dispelled. :smallamused:

Else, the closest I can think of is cloudkill, which can kill low-HD critters without a save, and acid fog (though the damage is a crummy 2d6 each round).

Wonton
2010-06-27, 11:54 PM
Else, the closest I can think of is cloudkill, which can kill low-HD critters without a save, and acid fog (though the damage is a crummy 2d6 each round).

In a similar vein, Haboob from Sandstorm. 3rd level, and it easily out-damages Acid Fog. Doesn't allow a save after the first round.

Knaight
2010-06-28, 12:24 AM
What about Holy Word, Blasphemy, and similar. Do those allow SR?

Ravingdork
2010-06-28, 12:31 AM
Has anyone mentioned the Death Throes spell from Spell Compendium yet?

No save, no SR, and automatically hits everything within a 30-foot radius burst for 1d8 FORCE damage per caster level (with no upper limit). Nothing is immune to this thing short of certain epic dragons and maybe the Force golem. If you are in the area, you are getting blasted--doesn't even matter if you are incorporeal or have energy resistance.

bobspldbckwrds
2010-06-28, 12:38 AM
Hail of Stone, from Spell Compendium. As additional points, this spell does untyped damage, hits an area, and is an instantaneous conjuration. It's pretty much the perfect "nothing resists this - no, not even that" spell, with the unfortunate exception of Globe of Invulnerability because it's merely level 1. Heighten Spell can deal with that problem, though. Sadly, its damage caps at 5d4 and it has a 5 gp material component.

the first thing i thought of when i first read the spell was "rocks fall, everyone dies"

PId6
2010-06-28, 12:44 AM
Has anyone mentioned the Death Throes spell from Spell Compendium yet?

No save, no SR, and automatically hits everything within a 30-foot radius burst for 1d8 FORCE damage per caster level (with no upper limit). Nothing is immune to this thing short of certain epic dragons and maybe the Force golem. If you are in the area, you are getting blasted--doesn't even matter if you are incorporeal or have energy resistance.
Forceward stops it.

There's also the problem that you have to die first before it deals the damage, and you're not allowed to come back short of Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection...

senrath
2010-06-28, 01:01 AM
What about Holy Word, Blasphemy, and similar. Do those allow SR?

They allow SR, sadly.

jseah
2010-06-28, 01:08 AM
Forceward stops it.

There's also the problem that you have to die first before it deals the damage, and you're not allowed to come back short of Wish, Miracle, or True Resurrection...
I have seen an arena build that abuses body outside of body to do this. Clone bombs FTW!

PId6
2010-06-28, 01:10 AM
I have seen an arena build that abuses body outside of body to do this. Clone bombs FTW!
Hmm, Symbionts can also probably be used for abusing this, though it'll get expensive if you do it too often. When in dire need, you can always sacrifice your familiar too. :smallcool:

Hague
2010-06-28, 01:21 AM
Swarm of Crystals is physical damage, however, so it gets affected by DR. If it weren't then it wouldn't be defined as 'slashing damage.' Which has always bothered me when people say that CPsi 'nerfed' it by clarifying that slashing damage is affected by DR.

Also, don't X of blades spells like Ring of Blades or Wall of Blades require no saves and go through SR?

Wonton
2010-06-28, 01:27 AM
Hmm, Symbionts can also probably be used for abusing this, though it'll get expensive if you do it too often. When in dire need, you can always sacrifice your familiar too. :smallcool:

Too bad you can only do that trick once every 366 days. :smallwink:

JaronK
2010-06-28, 01:37 AM
Love's Pain says nothing about True Love, just love. Love is an emotion. Mindrape lets you set their emotions (and memories, and pretty much everything else). If you read the two spells, it's obvious that it works just fine.

It does, however, require taking some Int damage with each casting of LP, and Mindrape is a 9th level spell, so it takes a while before you can autokill everyone.

JaronK

PId6
2010-06-28, 01:41 AM
Swarm of Crystals is physical damage, however, so it gets affected by DR. If it weren't then it wouldn't be defined as 'slashing damage.' Which has always bothered me when people say that CPsi 'nerfed' it by clarifying that slashing damage is affected by DR.

The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)

So yes, powers ignore DR even if their damage is listed as "slashing" or "piercing" or whatever, so CPsi definitely nerfed them by forcing them to allow DR. Spells that deal slashing, piercing, etc damage (like Field of Icy Razors in SpC) still ignore DR as usual unless the spell says otherwise.


Also, don't X of blades spells like Ring of Blades or Wall of Blades require no saves and go through SR?
Blade Barrier allows Ref half and SR. Ring of Blades do not allow either, but do allow DR.


Too bad you can only do that trick once every 366 days. :smallwink:
It works better with the Animal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) variant, or with an Arcane Hierophant. You get them back after 24 hours, and they're no longer XP bombs.

Hague
2010-06-28, 02:09 AM
Yeah, but "slashing" isn't an energy attack, energy spell, energy spell-like ability or energy supernatural ability.

Now here you are contradicting yourself. You say that Ring of Blades has DR, but it is a spell... And the description of ring of blades never mentions DR, it merely states that the blades themselves become cold iron, steel, or silver based on the alignment of a cleric casting it. I'll agree that it implies that DR is used, but it is never strictly stated so. So your interpretation of at least one of those texts is wrong in one way or another.

jseah
2010-06-28, 02:15 AM
Yeah, but "slashing" isn't an energy attack, energy spell, energy spell-like ability or energy supernatural ability.
Depends on where you put the comma.

"from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities"

Could mean energy [attacks, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities]

Or it could mean [energy attacks], [spells], [spell-like abilities], and [supernatural abilities]

PId6
2010-06-28, 02:17 AM
Yeah, but "slashing" isn't an energy attack, energy spell, energy spell-like ability or energy supernatural ability.
Read it again. DR doesn't apply to energy attacks, spells, SLAs, and Su abilities. Not energy attacks, energy spells, energy SLAs, and energy Su abilities. The SRD also says that:


A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.
There is no mention of spells, Su abilities, or anything else of that nature. From context, it's quite clear that DR doesn't apply to spells regardless of its type.


Now here you are contradicting yourself. You say that Ring of Blades has DR, but it is a spell... And the description of ring of blades never mentions DR.
Um, yes it does:


Spell resistance does not apply to the damage dealt, but a creature's damage reduction does apply.
That seems quite clear to me.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-06-28, 02:54 AM
Anyone know of a 1 hd construct that isn't a temporarily animated object? I think I see awesome on the horizon in the event that one exists.

PId6
2010-06-28, 02:57 AM
Anyone know of a 1 hd construct that isn't a temporarily animated object? I think I see awesome on the horizon in the event that one exists.
Warforged or Warforged Scout?

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-06-28, 03:14 AM
:smallredface: I should have clarified one without the Living Construct subtype.

PId6
2010-06-28, 03:19 AM
Dedicated Wright and Furtive Filcher homunculi from ECS are both 1 HD, while the Expeditious Messenger is 1/2 HD.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-06-28, 03:36 AM
Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. Now if only there was some way to give them class levels... :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-28, 03:43 AM
Awaken Construct?

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 03:45 AM
Hm, interesting points so far. Considering I want this to be able to deal damage whatsoever, no matter the cost, I don't suppose there are spells that allow for no SR, no DR, no energy resistances, no saves and don't require an attack roll?

Bonus points if there's a level 1 spell or power like that, even though it'd be way strong. :smallwink:

If not spells or powers, are there vestiges with abilities like that, or soulmelds?


Interesting. Thanks for the heads up. Now if only there was some way to give them class levels... :smallbiggrin:

Awaken construct or the incarnate construct template from Savage Species? I don't really see how this has to deal with the topic at hand though.

PId6
2010-06-28, 04:10 AM
Hm, interesting points so far. Considering I want this to be able to deal damage whatsoever, no matter the cost, I don't suppose there are spells that allow for no SR, no DR, no energy resistances, no saves and don't require an attack roll?

Bonus points if there's a level 1 spell or power like that, even though it'd be way strong. :smallwink:
Hail of Stone (SpC) has already been mentioned. No SR, no DR, no resistances, no saves, no attack roll, 1st level, and AoE besides.

Hendel
2010-06-28, 04:10 AM
The damage output is comparable to Burning Hands, but it's less efficient than Burning Hands assuming the enemy fails his save (on Burning Hands, that is).

Burning Hands can deal 5d4 damage max, for a 1st level slot, aka 1 PP.

This only ever deals 3d4 for 3 PP, kind of like a 2nd level slot.

If it had a "Reflex halves" clause, it would suck. A lot.

"Only ever deals 3d4" except for the fact that I can augment Swarm of Crystals up to my ML and even a 20th level wizard is only going to get 5d4 out of Burning Hands.

Runestar
2010-06-28, 04:10 AM
Hm, interesting points so far. Considering I want this to be able to deal damage whatsoever, no matter the cost, I don't suppose there are spells that allow for no SR, no DR, no energy resistances, no saves and don't require an attack roll?

Spells typically have at least 1 line of defense against them for that very reason. Still don't know what the designers were smoking when they printed forcecage though. :smalltongue:

What you can do is try to minimize the chances of the spell failing. For example, the orb spells ignore sr, save does not negate the damage, and you can use quickened true-strike to dramatically improve your chances of it hitting (pray you don't too many ones). Or use assay resistance+arcane mastery to overcome the foe's sr.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-06-28, 05:18 AM
Just got to thinking about how one could make use of the Love's Pain combo. A cute little construct that kills off living creatures strikes me as a great idea. Heck, somehow making it so that a Duskblade/Mystic Swordsage can do it in order to "hit someone so hard their <insert loved one's name here> literally feels it" is even funnier.

Kantolin
2010-06-28, 06:00 AM
Any(Most) summon spell(s)?

Creeping Doom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/creepingDoom.htm), and similar swarm-summoning spells?

Repel Metal or Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repelMetalorStone.htm)? Or Wood?

Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm)?

Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm)?

Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm)?

Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallofThorns.htm), possibly mixed with something with bull rush?

May not be what you're looking for, though.

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 06:11 AM
Any(Most) summon spell(s)?

Creeping Doom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/creepingDoom.htm), and similar swarm-summoning spells?

Repel Metal or Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repelMetalorStone.htm)? Or Wood?

Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm)?

Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm)?

Solid Fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm)?

Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallofThorns.htm), possibly mixed with something with bull rush?

May not be what you're looking for, though.

Reverse Gravity works, since it can deal more than 20 damage easily and thus not be subjected to DR. SR, saves, AC and resistances don't apply either.

Creeping Doom and swarm summons can work too, but I think swarm attacks are still subject to DR, and many classes and PrCs offer DR 10/magic at some point, so it should deal more.


...on a sidenote, aren't all spells and powers subject to DR if they deal an unspecified type of damage (or slashing, piercing or bludgeoning)?

Douglas
2010-06-28, 06:25 AM
...on a sidenote, aren't all spells and powers subject to DR if they deal an unspecified type of damage (or slashing, piercing or bludgeoning)?
No. Slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage implies by RAI that DR applies, otherwise there'd be no point to specifying it, but just plain untyped ignores DR just like energy damage, except it also ignores all energy resistances.

wick
2010-06-28, 06:52 AM
Doesn't that "Love is Pain" spell work on the love of the person damaged? i.e. making a peasant think that she loves the target with "Mind Rape" is pointless? Now if you "mind rape" the target to think he loves the peasant and then damage the peasant that would work.

As a DM I would rule that the spell causes damage based on a link between two lovers, so unless both love each other it would be a no go. That makes more sense than being vulnerable because some sheepherder's daughter that you haven't even met think she she loves you. Just think how many women think they love the King without having to rewrite their memories.

So it is likely to work as:

A. The person that is in love needs to be the target of the damage. The object of his affection need not return the love and this is the person you attack/torture.

or

B. Both people need to love each other for this spell to work.


Also, these two spells seem to be very Evil do they have that descriptor?

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 06:57 AM
"Only ever deals 3d4" except for the fact that I can augment Swarm of Crystals up to my ML and even a 20th level wizard is only going to get 5d4 out of Burning Hands.

To do so would be a resource use analogous to spending your highest level spell, whereas the 20th level wizard can only spend a 1st level spell. Augmentation isn't free.

Basically:

For Swarm of Crystals to deal comparable damage to Burning Hands, you'd have to spend 5 PP. Burning Hands can be "priced" at around 1 PP. If Swarm of Crystals had a "Reflex halves" clause, it would provide enough suction to unclog my drain, costing "five times as much" as a the arcane spell-analogue.

That's not to say there isn't a use for 20d4 damage, no save, but when you're shelling out 20 PP I'd expect a better result than a mere 20d4 damage.

subject42
2010-06-28, 08:05 AM
Not entirely relevant, but a creature with SLAs can take a feat to turn them into SU abilities.

Good god. What is the name and source of that feat? Also, does it work on Eldritch blast?

2xMachina
2010-06-28, 08:13 AM
Doesn't that "Love is Pain" spell work on the love of the person damaged? i.e. making a peasant think that she loves the target with "Mind Rape" is pointless? Now if you "mind rape" the target to think he loves the peasant and then damage the peasant that would work.

As a DM I would rule that the spell causes damage based on a link between two lovers, so unless both love each other it would be a no go. That makes more sense than being vulnerable because some sheepherder's daughter that you haven't even met think she she loves you. Just think how many women think they love the King without having to rewrite their memories.

So it is likely to work as:

A. The person that is in love needs to be the target of the damage. The object of his affection need not return the love and this is the person you attack/torture.

or

B. Both people need to love each other for this spell to work.


Also, these two spells seem to be very Evil do they have that descriptor?


subject's closest friend or loved one is wracked

It's more of a torture spell. Cast Love's Pain, and their loved one is hurt. Doesn't care if your target is a stalker who is actually hated by the one you want to harm.

Evil, yes.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:25 AM
Good god. What is the name and source of that feat? Also, does it work on Eldritch blast?

Supernatural Transformation, Savage Species 39.

I see no reason why it wouldn't, unless your DM defines "Innate SLA" as "not coming from class levels."


...Wow. I always thought that was reflex half. Why on earth isn't it reflex half? :smalleek:

It's not that bad - it's subject to damage reduction after all, and pretty weak (Xd4) to boot.

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 08:26 AM
It's more of a torture spell. Cast Love's Pain, and their loved one is hurt. Doesn't care if your target is a stalker who is actually hated by the one you want to harm.

Evil, yes.

Meaning it will be useless on someone who doesn't know love. Wonder what would happen if they loved several people all equally.

And does turning an SLA into an SU ability give it more uses?

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:36 AM
And does turning an SLA into an SU ability give it more uses?

No, it has the same number it did originally (including unlimited if it was unlimited before.)

Converting it to (Su) provides other benefits: allowing it to ignore SR, become unable to be dispelled and no longer provoke AoOs.

Douglas
2010-06-28, 08:37 AM
I see no reason why it wouldn't, unless your DM defines "Innate SLA" as "not coming from class levels."
I don't think there's been an actual errata on the subject, but that is the interpretation the FAQ insists on.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:42 AM
I don't think there's been an actual errata on the subject, but that is the interpretation the FAQ insists on.

Personally, I agree a Warlock should probably not be allowed to do this (for one, it makes Vitriolic Essence obsolete); however, I can certainly understand if a DM allows it.

Runestar
2010-06-28, 08:44 AM
Good god. What is the name and source of that feat? Also, does it work on Eldritch blast?

Supernatural transformation from savage species. Sadly, it doesn't work on warlocks because the SLA must be "innate", and a warlock's EB is technically not innate as it is derived from a class feature. :smallconfused:

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 08:51 AM
No, it has the same number it did originally (including unlimited if it was unlimited before.)

Converting it to (Su) provides other benefits: allowing it to ignore SR, become unable to be dispelled and no longer provoke AoOs.

That would certainly open up the possibilities.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:57 AM
I imagine the reason a Supernatural Eldritch Blast would no longer provoke an AoO is that it comes out too fast to react to.

Something like this, maybe?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/22021/854809-stark_cero_super.jpg

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 09:01 AM
Hmmm... I recall there are feats or other ways to turn a spell into a spell-like ability... I don't recall where I saw that though. Anyone help?

Would be even better if that method was available at level 1. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 09:05 AM
Hmmm... I recall there are feats or other ways to turn a spell into a spell-like ability... I don't recall where I saw that though. Anyone help?

Would be even better if that method was available at level 1. :smallbiggrin:

Innate Spell from Complete Arcane... it's pretty bad though.

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 09:13 AM
Innate Spell from Complete Arcane... it's pretty bad though.

Checking with it, it is... you could get the feat as soon as 5th-level for a human wizard, 9th-level for a non-human non-wizard spellcaster, and you couldn't even use it until 15th-level. Plus, there's no point in making it a spell-like ability if you still need to use material stuff and pay XP for it. :smallannoyed:

It'd be better if the spell slot consumed would be 5 levels higher and the XP cost was dumped. The focus thing I get, but there are hardly any spells with a significant XP cost of level 0 or 1st, especially not at mid- or high-level.

I sure hope that is not the only way...

okpokalypse
2010-06-28, 09:18 AM
I don't know of any spells, but I know of a Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) like that.

It's even better if you can use the Mind's Eye "Sculpt Power" with it and turn it into either a 120' Line, 40' Cone or 20'r Long-Range Ball... The only limitor of the power is the 15' Cone area, and it's easily bypassable :).

okpokalypse
2010-06-28, 09:20 AM
While it does require a ranged-touch, I find Melf's Unicorn Arrow to be the best pure-damage killer of a single target, bar none. You can easily pump out 480 damage a round with that bad boy given the right build (Conjurer / Master Specialist).

nekomata2
2010-06-28, 09:25 AM
Archmages have a class ability that let them give up some spell slots to get a particular spell as an SLA, though they still have to pay XP costs for it.

And Optimystik, I knew you were going there with the Stark picture. It's the first thing I thought of too.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 09:39 AM
Archmages have a class ability that let them give up some spell slots to get a particular spell as an SLA, though they still have to pay XP costs for it.

Correct; Unlike Innate Spell, however, that ability has a static cost (5th-level slot) rather than scaling with the level of the spell to be converted, so it definitely has the edge.


It's even better if you can use the Mind's Eye "Sculpt Power" with it and turn it into either a 120' Line, 40' Cone or 20'r Long-Range Ball... The only limitor of the power is the 15' Cone area, and it's easily bypassable :).

As I posted earlier, the power has another limit - it is subject to DR.


METACREATIVITY AND DAMAGE REDUCTION
Any damage dealing metacreativity power that specifies piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning damage does not automatically overcome a creature’s damage reduction. Such powers include crystal shard (EPH 89), hail of crystals (EPH 111), swarm of crystals (EPH 134), burrowing bonds (page 79), and crystalstorm (page 81).

subject42
2010-06-28, 09:42 AM
I imagine the reason a Supernatural Eldritch Blast would no longer provoke an AoO is that it comes out too fast to react to.

Something like this, maybe?


You mean something like this, maybe?

http://media1.fxhome.com/preset-images/1899/preview.png

Hendel
2010-06-28, 10:25 AM
To do so would be a resource use analogous to spending your highest level spell, whereas the 20th level wizard can only spend a 1st level spell. Augmentation isn't free.

Basically:

For Swarm of Crystals to deal comparable damage to Burning Hands, you'd have to spend 5 PP. Burning Hands can be "priced" at around 1 PP. If Swarm of Crystals had a "Reflex halves" clause, it would provide enough suction to unclog my drain, costing "five times as much" as a the arcane spell-analogue.

That's not to say there isn't a use for 20d4 damage, no save, but when you're shelling out 20 PP I'd expect a better result than a mere 20d4 damage.

I totally agree with you, I was just stating that Swarm of Crystals has more upside potential than Burning Hands. You can augment Swarm of Crystals with no extra feats or abilities required. While you could Enhance, Twin, Searing, etc. to Burning Hands and make it more powerful but it requires feats/metamagic rods, etc. to do so. In my book that makes Swarm of Crystals better regardless of the pp versus spell level cost associated with them.

If you add to that the fact that Swarm of Crystals has no save, attack roll, or SR, then it wins by a country mile. The only downside requires the manifester to get rather close to the enemy, closer than I normally like to be.

I also agree that at 20 pp, I would hope for more than 20d4, but against an golem or some other creature with magic immunity or a high SR, it is better than a mean stare.

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 10:46 AM
I also agree that at 20 pp, I would hope for more than 20d4, but against an golem or some other creature with magic immunity or a high SR, it is better than a mean stare.

This is what astral construct is for, and I bet that 17 PP on one of these babies will deal far more than 20d4 damage to a golem and soak up hits besides.

Actually, you're probably a Psion - why haven't you grabbed it with Expanded Knowledge yet? Astral construct is freakin' ridiculous and ends encounters single-handedly. Take it. ALWAYS take it. :smallamused:

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 10:51 AM
Hmmm... so far Hail of Stone from Spell Compendium is the only really spot-on candidate for what I want. The only downside is the 5 gp material component. How can I remove that icky component, without making it a spell-like ability? (Or even with making it a spell-like ability, so Innate Spell doesn't work.)

Still as said before, if it works at level 1, or before level 6 even, that'd work best for me.


This is what astral construct is for, and I bet that 17 PP on one of these babies will deal far more than 20d4 damage to a golem and soak up hits besides.

Actually, you're probably a Psion - why haven't you grabbed it with Expanded Knowledge yet? Astral construct is freakin' ridiculous and ends encounters single-handedly. Take it. ALWAYS take it. :smallamused:

I agree. If I were a Psion, I'd always want that power.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 11:57 AM
5gp isn't much of a barrier - your WBL can more than cover using it regularly even at mid levels. Once you get Wall of Iron you can make unlimited gp anyway.



Actually, you're probably a Psion - why haven't you grabbed it with Expanded Knowledge yet? Astral construct is freakin' ridiculous and ends encounters single-handedly. Take it. ALWAYS take it. :smallamused:

You can also get it with Hidden Talent (XPH), allowing you to manifest it at first level without being a Shaper, and giving you bonus PP to use with it besides.

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 11:59 AM
5gp isn't much of a barrier - your WBL can more than cover using it regularly even at mid levels. Once you get Wall of Iron you can make unlimited gp anyway.

Well, the idea here is to get a small army of low-level (1st-level, but none higher than 5th) all with as many spell slots filled up with Hail of Stone to barrage enemies with (or PCs :smallamused: ). So yeah, negating the cost would be preferable.

lsfreak
2010-06-28, 11:59 AM
Hmmm... so far Hail of Stone from Spell Compendium is the only really spot-on candidate for what I want. The only downside is the 5 gp material component. How can I remove that icky component, without making it a spell-like ability? (Or even with making it a spell-like ability, so Innate Spell doesn't work.)

Still as said before, if it works at level 1, or before level 6 even, that'd work best for me.

Keep in mind Hail of Stone is a 'One full action' spell, and thus isn't completed until right before the beginning of your next round. This means lining up the AoE can be difficult, and you'll have to make concentration checks if you take any damage.

Douglas
2010-06-28, 12:03 PM
Keep in mind Hail of Stone is a 'One full action' spell, and thus isn't completed until right before the beginning of your next round. This means lining up the AoE can be difficult, and you'll have to make concentration checks if you take any damage.
That's nothing an application of Rapid Spell can't fix.

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-28, 12:06 PM
Are there any spells that don't allow for SR or saves and do not require an attack roll, but are still offensive in some way?

If so, what are they and what's their source?

Meteor Swarm. If you target the square directly behind who you want dead, then it's not a targeted spell, so no SR. It says that a target struck by all four meteors does not get a save against the damage, so thus no save. And it needs no attack roll, because the text does not say that it needs one. But then again, it's a 9th level spell, so you could instead just wish them dead.
-Xavez

Hendel
2010-06-28, 12:09 PM
Meteor Swarm. If you target the square directly behind who you want dead, then it's not a targeted spell, so no SR. It says that a target struck by all four meteors does not get a save against the damage, so thus no save. And it needs no attack roll, because the text does not say that it needs one. But then again, it's a 9th level spell, so you could instead just wish them dead.
-Xavez

I'm not sure how you got that SR would not apply on Meteor Swarm, but, regardless of whether you are hit directly with one of the meteors or just caught in the area, SR still applies.

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-28, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure how you got that SR would not apply on Meteor Swarm, but, regardless of whether you are hit directly with one of the meteors or just caught in the area, SR still applies.

SR is only against spells that directly target the creature. SR applies to Finger of Death, but not to Fireball. If you aim a Meteor Swarm behind a creature, I don't think that there is SR. But we should still stick to Wish.
-Xavez

Hendel
2010-06-28, 12:15 PM
SR is only against spells that directly target the creature. SR applies to Finger of Death, but not to Fireball. If you aim a Meteor Swarm behind a creature, I don't think that there is SR. But we should still stick to Wish.
-Xavez

Sorry, that is not true.

SRD:

When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

imperialspectre
2010-06-28, 12:19 PM
SR is only against spells that directly target the creature. SR applies to Finger of Death, but not to Fireball. If you aim a Meteor Swarm behind a creature, I don't think that there is SR. But we should still stick to Wish.
-Xavez

Odd that Fireball would be listed as Spell Resistance: Yes, then.

For the sarcasm-impaired, your opinion isn't supported in the text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance) describing spell resistance, and isn't consistent with AoE spells that are described as SR: Yes. I don't know if the idea that SR only affects targeted spells is a houserule at your gaming table, but it certainly isn't a rule normally.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Siosilvar
2010-06-28, 12:19 PM
Am I the only one who finds it odd that irresistable dance doesn't apply here because it allows SR?

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 12:20 PM
Am I the only one who finds it odd that irresistable dance doesn't apply here because it allows SR?

Irresistable and SR: Yes are at rather ironic odds with each other, yes. :smalltongue:

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-28, 12:21 PM
Never mind Meteor Swarm then. Just use Wish to make them dead. Or Miracle. Or use summoning spells.
-Xavez

Cogidubnus
2010-06-28, 12:22 PM
Friendship and love are from memories. Who cares how fake those memories are? To the mindraped person those are real memories, and so the feelings are real too.

For the Doctor Who fans, see Rory in the last two episodes for an example of this.

Wonton
2010-06-28, 12:34 PM
While it does require a ranged-touch, I find Melf's Unicorn Arrow to be the best pure-damage killer of a single target, bar none. You can easily pump out 480 damage a round with that bad boy given the right build (Conjurer / Master Specialist).

Not to mention DC 29 Bull Rush... now if only we could find a way to make our arrows take levels in Dungeoncrasher. :smalltongue:

Hendel
2010-06-28, 12:36 PM
Just use Wish to make them dead. Or Miracle.
-Xavez

My only issue with this is that if I were the DM and you wished someone dead, your character would appear sometime in the future without the rest of the party when the enemy who you wished to be dead was dead. I fulfilled the wording of the Wish and now your character is out of action unless he finds a way to get back in time, etc.

Wonton
2010-06-28, 12:42 PM
My only issue with this is that if I were the DM and you wished someone dead, your character would appear sometime in the future without the rest of the party when the enemy who you wished to be dead was dead. I fulfilled the wording of the Wish and now your character is out of action unless he finds a way to get back in time, etc.

I don't understand why some people think Wish is like an open invitation to **** with your Wizard. :smallannoyed:

The guy cast a 9th-level spell, paying 5,000 XP. If he wants to destroy the world, go ahead screw up his wish. Killing one guy? There's a 4th-level spell that can do that (though not as well, admittedly).

Hendel
2010-06-28, 12:49 PM
I don't understand why some people think Wish is like an open invitation to **** with your Wizard. :smallannoyed:

The guy cast a 9th-level spell, paying 5,000 XP. If he wants to destroy the world, go ahead screw up his wish. Killing one guy? There's a 4th-level spell that can do that (though not as well, admittedly).

It is to keep Wish from going too far off the reservation to me. Yes, he spends 5,000 XP and yes, it is a 9th level spell, but if it is not in the list of "safe" items to wish for, then it is in the wording of the wish. Call it a throw back to 1st edition for me, but a lot of things can mess up a game and I will try and not let Wish be one of those.

Besides, it is not as much an open invitation to do anything to the wizard, what about the wizard opening himself up to be messed with?

lsfreak
2010-06-28, 12:54 PM
The guy cast a 9th-level spell, paying 5,000 XP. If he wants to destroy the world, go ahead screw up his wish. Killing one guy? There's a 4th-level spell that can do that (though not as well, admittedly).

It's outside the scope of a guaranteed wish, as printed in the rules, however, and thus open to manipulation (at least, I'm not aware of any 8th level wizard spell that no-range-no-save-no-SR-just-die). I certainly wouldn't do something that bad, but something that leaves a plot hook open, like that the very well-liked paladin bodyguard of the king suddenly and inexplicably beheaded the king in the middle of an open court (thus fulfilling the wish), and he's now on the run/the church is protecting him and there's a brewing of war between the kingdom and the church/he's now crazy and killing everything.

Wonton
2010-06-28, 01:00 PM
Well Wish definitely allows SR. But fair enough, no-save, unlimited range death is probably too powerful.

Teron
2010-06-28, 01:12 PM
Meteor Swarm. If you target the square directly behind who you want dead, then it's not a targeted spell, so no SR. It says that a target struck by all four meteors does not get a save against the damage, so thus no save. And it needs no attack roll, because the text does not say that it needs one. But then again, it's a 9th level spell, so you could instead just wish them dead.
-Xavez
What the hell? Besides the SR issue others already addressed, meteor swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) requires ranged touch attacks to hit a target directly, and you can't bypass that by "aiming behind them". That would merely catch them in the AoE, which allows saves.

Keld Denar
2010-06-28, 01:13 PM
Its not like SR is really an issue at the level you are casting Wish anyway. Arcane Mastery allows you to take 10. Then just make sure you UMD a Bead of Kharma, have your Orange IWIN Stone up, a Ring of Arcane Might, a Crystal Mask of Penetration, and probably 2-3 levels of Archmage Spell Power. That gives you a CL of ~28 at level 17 WRT penetration rolls, and taking 10 means you automatically overcome SR38. Thats enough to punch through (Un)Holy Aura. If you were REALLY concerned about it, you could also stack on Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen and blow all 5 levels of Archmage on Arcane Powah to allow you to automatically overcome SR47, at level 20. I don't know a lot of things with SR47. I don't even think a Great Wyrm Red who blew ALL of his feats on Awaken Spell Resistance can top SR47.

And thats just straight wizard shaniganery. You could go even higher with Ultimate Magus tec, Sublime Chord tec, Ur-Priest tec, and Master Spellthief tec.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 01:24 PM
Well, the idea here is to get a small army of low-level (1st-level, but none higher than 5th) all with as many spell slots filled up with Hail of Stone to barrage enemies with (or PCs :smallamused: ). So yeah, negating the cost would be preferable.

Filling all of a Wizard 20's slots with Hail of Stone (and casting them all) costs 180 gp/day. If he's a specialist, add 45 gp to that. A sorcerer 20 would cost 270gp/day.

Even assuming it takes an entire year for him to gain a level, a Wizard's WBL can cover this amount by level 12, never mind 20, all without infinite money tricks. So... I'm not quite seeing the issue. :smallconfused:

PId6
2010-06-28, 04:03 PM
Keep in mind Hail of Stone is a 'One full action' spell, and thus isn't completed until right before the beginning of your next round. This means lining up the AoE can be difficult, and you'll have to make concentration checks if you take any damage.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime)

Lining up the AoE is difficult only if they completely get out of range of the spell while you were casting.


Never mind Meteor Swarm then. Just use Wish to make them dead. Or Miracle. Or use summoning spells.
-Xavez
Wish and Miracle both allow SR. Summoning allows attack rolls.

lsfreak
2010-06-28, 04:43 PM
Lining up the AoE is difficult only if they completely get out of range of the spell while you were casting.

My point was that you might be able to affect 4 people with Hail of Stone when you start casting, but only 1 by the time the spell goes off. You can't time the AoE on hail of stone like you can standard-action AoE's. When everyone moves between the start of the spellcasting and when the spell actually goes off, people may have spread out, especially thanks to the wonders of DC16 Spellcraft checks and out-of-turn speaking.

EDIT: AoO, AoE, they're the same, right? :smalltongue:

Morph Bark
2010-06-28, 05:52 PM
Filling all of a Wizard 20's slots with Hail of Stone (and casting them all) costs 180 gp/day. If he's a specialist, add 45 gp to that. A sorcerer 20 would cost 270gp/day.

Even assuming it takes an entire year for him to gain a level, a Wizard's WBL can cover this amount by level 12, never mind 20, all without infinite money tricks. So... I'm not quite seeing the issue. :smallconfused:

I think the issue might be, y'know, the fact that one level 20 wizard/sorcerer =/= a bunch of level 5 wizards/sorcerers?

The keyword in that previous post was low-level. Another might have been army.

Douglas
2010-06-28, 05:58 PM
Spell-to-power Erudite using Hail of Stone? That would replace the material component with 2 power points.

Alternatively, large armies are generally parts of powerful organizations which have ways of getting large quantities of money. So, the organization supplies the component with orders to save it for when something that reliable is necessary (which usually means when facing high level foes - low level enemies are likely enough to fail saves and get hit by attack rolls that more normal spells will suffice).

PId6
2010-06-28, 06:06 PM
The Draconic Rite of Passage ritual (RotD) lets a kobold gain any 1st level Sorcerer spell as a 1/day SLA for 100 gp and 1 hp. The Draconic Reservoir (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) feat can be taken at 3rd level to up that to 3/day instead. Since it's an SLA, you get to ignore material components, though you ultimately lose out unless you're planning on using it more than 20 times.

Oh, and I recommend Ring Gates for this.

Runestar
2010-06-28, 06:08 PM
Never mind Meteor Swarm then. Just use Wish to make them dead. Or Miracle. Or use summoning spells.
-Xavez

Wish accomplishes the request in the most straightforward manner. So in this case, it will likely just replicate a SoD of a lower lv (but using the save DC of a 9th lv spell).

Unless there is some spell which insta-gibbs the foe without allowing a save? :smalleek:

I am fairly sure meteor swarm requires sr. Hurling them merely lets you substitute a reflex save for a ranged attack roll (almost always worth it, IMO), but there is no way to get around having to check for sr.

Fair weak spell overall, since fire resistance applies 4 times!!! :smallyuk:

PId6
2010-06-28, 06:11 PM
Unless there is some spell which insta-gibbs the foe without allowing a save? :smalleek:
Love's Pain?

Keld Denar
2010-06-28, 06:18 PM
Unless there is some spell which insta-gibbs the foe without allowing a save? :smalleek:

Power Word: Kill does. Unfortunately, its [Mind Affecting], has a HP cap, and allows SR. Basically, every other defense EXCEPT the save.

Hague
2010-06-28, 06:20 PM
Um, yes it does:

[My quote]

That seems quite clear to me.

Ah, okay, here I am reading Complete Arcane (which doesn't mention DR, but it does mention the damage changing to silver or cold iron) when you were reading it out of SpC.

Hague
2010-06-28, 06:36 PM
The Argent Savant's Unbind Force ability allows no attack roll, saving throw, DR or spell resistance. You can cast mass mage armor on a group of enemies, who will (no doubt) choose not to resist a beneficial spell and then unbind the force of the spell to deal 3d6 10ft burst damage against each target that has the mage armor affecting them (up to 1 per caster level within 30 ft of each other). This still requires a caster spell level check against your own caster level, though. Best bet is to use the mass mage armor in the form of a wand so you can keep the caster level intentionally low (though, there's nothing that says you can't intentionally keep the caster level of your mass mage armor lower)

Pretty sneaky, eh?


EDIT: Ack! I didn't realize I double-posted, sorry friendly admin-folk. Please don't smite me!

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 07:33 PM
Unless there is some spell which insta-gibbs the foe without allowing a save? :smalleek:

Yes: the Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm) line, so long as you pump your CL high enough. Doing so will also make overcoming SR with it trivial (for CR-appropriate encounters,) though you will still have a problem with magic immune monsters.


(though, there's nothing that says you can't intentionally keep the caster level of your mass mage armor lower)


You can't lower it below the minimum required to cast the spell (5) but otherwise your strategy is good.

Scorpions__
2010-06-29, 01:59 AM
tl;dr

Has Greater Flesh Fails been mentioned? It's a great mystery that doesn't have a save, doesn't require an attack roll (it affects all creatures in an area), and with a triple application of the Favoured Mystery feat, it will allow no spell resistance.

It does 6 STR, or DEX damage, or 4 CON damage.





DM[F]R

magic9mushroom
2010-06-29, 03:36 AM
Reserves of Strength it up, I'd say. It's a feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which - due to bad wording - allows you to surpass caps like that.

It's not bad wording at all. It's basically just like Overchannel.

Morph Bark
2010-06-29, 05:37 AM
Spell-to-power Erudite using Hail of Stone? That would replace the material component with 2 power points.

Alternatively, large armies are generally parts of powerful organizations which have ways of getting large quantities of money. So, the organization supplies the component with orders to save it for when something that reliable is necessary (which usually means when facing high level foes - low level enemies are likely enough to fail saves and get hit by attack rolls that more normal spells will suffice).

Yes, but it is always more effective to save money whichever way you can. Damn those cheapskate aristocrats. :smallamused:

Spell-to-power Erudite could work. From what you say though they'd need to be at least level 3 to use it, and level 7 to "cast" it at maximum power with no material component.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 08:11 AM
Yes, but it is always more effective to save money whichever way you can. Damn those cheapskate aristocrats. :smallamused:

Spell-to-power Erudite could work. From what you say though they'd need to be at least level 3 to use it, and level 7 to "cast" it at maximum power with no material component.

They also have the option of casting it for less than maximum for no material component. For example, a StP Erudite can cast Hail of Stone sans material components at the same level he learns it, but for 1d4 damage.


It's not bad wording at all. It's basically just like Overchannel.

It's a bit better than Overchannel, given that it tears the cap away completely rather than simply raising it.

In addition, spells auto-scale while many powers do not. (Unless you're using the spell point variant anyway.)