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Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 04:56 AM
Recently I began my tour of the NED (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153950). Now, being new to "competitive" DnD, and, for that matter, Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltcharacters.htm), I was at a loss out of how to make a truly competitive character. With that experience in mind, and reading several threads such as Person Man's X to Y bonus, and The Comprehensive list of ways to augment an attack roll, and a little help from Samm and Duskranger, I've compiled this help article. Please PEACH!

This article is in no way meant to be a dead set guide as to gestalt optimization. Why I love 3.5 so much is the customization, and there's always so many options that to say a guide like this one is the only way is ignorant and stupid to the extreme. What I intend to do is help you to:

A) Understand some basic tenants of Opti-fu with gestalt.
B) Direct you away from some of the no-go options with Gestalt.
C) Get you inspired and thinking.

Your Steps to building a competitive Gestalt Character

Identify your strategy
Pick Ability Scores
Pick Race
Max out ability scores
Pick Classes
Some extra tips and ideas



Step 1: Identify your strategy
Each gestalt, 1st level character needs to be built with a strategy in mind. This helps you to no end at picking race, ability allocation, class levels, gear even spells. Here are some of the strategies I've encountered and thought up myself:


Stealthy Guy
Nuke
Tricksy Guy
Blaster
Tank
Disrupter guy


Stealthy Guy
This build will emphasize your defence and ability to escape your foe's notice. This build will be patient in damage dealing in order to have no or very little chance to get hurt or affected.

Nuke
This build, as it says, simply rides over traps, enemies, and eventually, locked doors and walls. This guy will deal out as much damage as possible at the expense of real durability, but durability will help alot. Later on this guy may be known as a "Ubercharger".

Tricksy Guy
The kind of build which empasizes some kind of effect which makes enemies all confused and all that. He might have several tricks up his sleeve, such as illusion spells, miss chances, the ability to go invisible, shift size quickly, teleport out of reach, attack foes while never being attacked, etc.

Blaster
This refers to a more Casty (or Manifesty) character. In general, these characters are quite hard to pull of, as it is quite easy to run out of spells for a day, and if you've maxed your chances on spells, when they run out, you've not got a whole lot left. I'm yet to see a Blaster build that works as well as a Nuke or even a Disrupting guy, though I'm usually wrong :smallsmile: when it comes to things like that. I'm sure someone will suprise me.

Tank
Exactly as the name suggests, this guy deals out good effects/damage yet can sit there and eat 2d6+6 each turn, wether by combination of high AC, DR, FH, and good ol' HP, or by healing self while having high HP and a familiar. This build will not work unless you have some decent means to put something onto your opponents - it's no good being tough if you can't hit back.

Disrupting Guy
This build has some kind of "Disruption ability" which could be anything from Tripping to actually casting. A Disrupter will use his abilities to disrupt his opponents and then drop em while they're disrupted. He may call out "You've just been Disrupt'd!" as he drops them. Or maybe not.

Okay, so now we've got the builds out of the way, we move on to Step 2: pick ability scores and Step 3: Pick race.

Step 2: Pick Ability Scores
Generally, with such a min-maxing character building style, you'll want to get either 2 great scores, 1 great and 3 good scores, or just 4 good scores. It depends on you build strategy, as discussed below.

Stealthy Guy
Unless you've got another way of hiding, aim for 2 great scores. Dexterity, obviously, comes in very handy, as not only does it, as everyone knows, boost your AC, but also your Hide, Move Silently, Open lock and Tumble checks, which are especially nice for a stealth character. Dexterity is also important to allow you to own the first round of combat so you can run and hide... Your other ability should be something related to either casting or boosting intelligence - Or both if you're an int based character. Int will boost your skills and boost search and disable device most importantly, allowing you to fuffil your role with ease and compensate for the loss of sheer toughness you get by having a stealth guy.

Nuke
It really depends on your preference and class. Generally, go for a single great score and 3 good scores, putting the great score into strength or dexterity, and the 3 good scores into Constituition, Dexterity and a mental stat, as a Nuke will appreciate the abilities of classes such as the Crusader, Psionic characters, and even a divine caster. Generally, I try as a personal standpoint to max dexterity and find a way to get extra damage while boosting Initiative, AC and skills.

Tricksy Guy
Often, this character will be a caster: go for two great scores. Again, I come back to dexterity as your second great score, though if you go for a great score and 3 good scores you can get away with putting good stats into phsyical stats. If you are putting two good scores into mental stats and are planning to take two casty classes, I would advise you to take one great stat and one good stat: The highest in your enemy affecting spells, the lower (just high enough to get a bonus spell or two) in your non-enemy-affecting spells.

Blaster
Same boat as the Tricksy guy, though try for two caster classes (if that's the way you're gettting enough spells) that rely on the same stat, then boost dex. Your strategy here is to get your Save DC as high as you can and to have at least 8 good attack spells per day that can drop at least 8 damage reliably. A good score in dex will save you should you run out of spells or encounter a more resistant enemy, and will also allow you to get the strike on the enemy. Skipping ahead abit, a level of sneak attack damage can often boost weaponlike spell damage to the above requirement for a lower spell slot.

Tank
Obvious: Go for high Con and/or a high AC boost. Wether you get the AC boost by having a Psionic self boosting spell list or being a Monk (more on that later), AC, HP and some kind of tricksy healing or reduction make the tank work. Make sure you've got the ability to deal damage, wether by running an offensive casting repetoire, or higher strength and/or dex to attack back.

Disrupter Guy
You'll need a mental stat that is great for your disruption abilities and good dex, followed by a Str stat so you can deal damage if you can't rely on spells for offence.

Step 3: Race
Following the ability picking guide above, pick a race that enhances the above required statistics, and one that provides some trick or passive bonus, such as a Shifter's shifting or a Gnome's illusion DC boost. Speed isn't a massive issue, as running away doesn't work very well when there's other monsters on the prowl and traps everywhere. Below is a quick list of the builds and what kind of race helps them:

Stealthy Guy
Go for a race that's small or tiny, with a dex boost. A racial bonus to your stealth skills is handy, as is any bonus of attack rolls such as the Halflings +1 on attacks with thrown weapons and slings. A bonus to your damage dealing is handy, of course, even if it's limited to every hour or something. Try for a character who can manufacture his own hide chance if you can.

Tricksy Guy
Again, a small character works well, but any race that boosts casting ability (or manifesting ability) is handy, specifically looking for bonus Caster Levels, spells per day, Save DC bonuses and all that good stuff. Boosting the stats of a mental and dexterity is the best race for this guy.

Nuke
A strength boosting race with a con boost, prefereably with a dex adjustment is the key here. A race with natural weapons is worth it's weight in gold here, even a d3 of damage becomes formidable when combined with feats and strength 20 or 22. Natural armour and some kind of one-hit wonder ability is wonderful here, as is anything that could boost attacks and damage while providing a decent degree of survivabilty.

Blaster
Same as tricksy guy, aiming for a spell boosting race. However, a race with natural toughness is more handy for the Blaster as well as a mental stat boost.

Disrupter Guy
Same as blaster, but try get some natural attacks and toughness - so, once your opponents are all "disrupted" you can drop them.

Tank
A naturally tough race here is excellent, as well as any race with some inate damage reducing ability such as Elan.

Step 4: Maxing out your abilities
Okay, so now you've got your scores and race worked out. Let's move onto class. Your build strategy should be heavily considered when you move to this step. Suppose the following table is more of an inspiration rather than a dead-set guide - your build will vary, and this is just about putting some ideas into your head and getting that cheese grater out.

Table of Classes
{table]Stat|Class|Benefit|Scaling|Additional
Dexterity|Rogue|Ini, AC, skills.|Good|Trapfinding, Sneak Attack
Intelligence|Beguiler|+spells, +DC|As wizard|Trapfinding, Armoured Casting
-|Duskblade|+spells, +DC|As Wizard.|Spell-Like abilities, Armoured Casting
-|Factotum|Pretty Much Everything, including Attack, Damage, AC, Skills, etc. |Limited times per encounter, infinite times out of combat.|Can get extra Standard Actions. Lots of Skills.
-|Lurk|+PP, +DC, Lurk Augments/day|1/2 Int mod|Sneak Attack
-|Psion|+PP, +DC|1/2 Int mod. |-
-|Warblade|+To saves, later other|full, late levels|Maneouvers, Stances
-|Wizard|+spells, +DC|20:+2 spells, 12: +1 Spell.|Familiar, Specialization
-|Wu Jen|+spells, +DC|As wizard|Bonus Metamagic feat, Watchful spirit.
Wisdom|Ardent|+PP, +DC|1/2 wis mod|Mantles, Psionics
-|Cleric|+spells, +DC|12 +1 spell, 18 +2 spells|Domains, Turn Undead
-|Druid|+spells, +DC|as cleric|Animal Companion
-|Incarnum Classes|+DC on Soulmelds|full|Soulmelds.
-|Monk|+AC, some DCs|Full|Flurry of Blows, Unarmed damage
-|Ninja|+AC, +ki|full|trapfinding, Sudden Strike
-|Psychic Warrior|+PP, +DC|1/2 wis mod|Bonus Feat
-|Shapeshifter Druid|+spells, +DC|as cleric|Predator Form
-|Spirit Guide|+spells|As cleric|Alertness, Cha is the DC modifier
-|Swordsage|+AC at 2nd level, DCs|Full|Maneouvers, Stances
-|Warmage|+damage on spells|full|Armoured casting
Charisma|Bard|+spells, +DC, Perform|as Sorcerer|Armoured Casting, Music
-|Cleric|Turn attempts/day|3+cha|Domains, Spells, Aura.
-|Favoured Soul|+spells, +DC|as cleric|-
-|Paladin|Attack|limited/day|Smite, Aura.
-|Sorcerer|+spells, +DC|as Wizard|Familiar, Draconic heritage access
-|Spellthief|+spells and DC later|as wizard|Sneak Attack, Steal spells, Trapfinding
-|Spirit Guide|+DC|-|Alertness
-|Sugenja|+spells, +DC|as Wizard|Spell focus with an element, Sense Elements
-|Warlock|+Invocation DC|full|Eldritch blast, Invocations
-|Warmage|+spells, +DC|as Wizard|Armoured Casting
-|Wilder|+PP, +DC|1/2 Cha mod|Wild Surge[/table]

Picking Classes
With your strategy in mind, you need to consider what classes will grant you what you need to be effective in that strategy. A good example by Candycorn, below, is Defence (Tank): A crusader has the good defence capabilities, which sets up a solid base for you to build a tough character from. For example, you might pick the Incarnate and get yourself some DR and some healing, or perhaps an ardent, getting yourself the power to give yourself 5 thp when someone is injured, which is an elegant trick when combined with the Crusader's Steely Resolve ability.

When picking classes, you could do worse than to go through nearly every book looking for anything that could help, wether by alternate class features or feat combos, or some trick that somehow makes you better at what you do.

Its worth picking up the Crystal keep PDFs, though they don't include Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, Complete Champion or Mage, nor Dragon magic or the Psionics books. But they do have a list of things in a quick format which you can look through.


Casting/Manifesting:
You want to make sure you are pushing for a specific strategy with your casting. If you're using spells for buffing, you do not need a cast stat of more than 12. If you're actively attacking the enemy with spells such as Colour Spray, make your stat decently high. But don't neglect your other scores... If you're going for a passive spellcaster, go for the middle ground.

Remember, Stat 12 gets you a bonus spell of 1st level. You'll need stat 20 to get two bonus 1st level spells. Think about wether you need to have spell DCs carefuly.

Action Economy
As said by Jack Simth, it's no good having pro combat and pro spellcasting if you can't do both at the same time. To ensure Action Economy:

One Active, One Passive:: Aim for one class which does *something* and another that makes you even better at what you do, such as actual buffing, or even healing.
Actions Keep a very close eye on what actions your various strategies take up. For example, you may be maxing two weapon fighting or natural weapons, but how are you going to get there to do a full attack? A good option may be the Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce, but perhaps travel devotion or even Dimension hop from the freedom mantle of the ardent, which allows you to teleport 10'. Keep in mind all this when you build the character. If your strategy can't work this way, consider an alternative.


Avoid Class feature redundancy...
A common example of this is armour profficiencies and spellcasting. While a fighter//cleric can use the armour, the fighter doesn't grant any armour profficiencies over the cleric! The only thing you're getting out of the figher is weapon proffiency and a feat. Perhaps another class, such as Crusader, would do better.

Mask Weaknesses
Using Gestalt, you should be looking to getting at least average base attack and at least 2 good saves... While you could stack two casters, you'll be seriously weak and no better than a standard caster except that you can cast more times per day. For example, you can take the Battle Sorcerer variant - you lose a few spells but gain effectively +4 hp and armoured casting, and average base attack. This can make a double caster build work.

Some Choice Builds
Druid//Ninja
What you get: Wisdom based Divine spells, cure spells, animal companion, wisdom to AC, Invisibility n/day, where n = 1/2 level + wisdom modifier, sudden strike damage, Wild shape or Shapeshifting.
Stats 3 Good saves, 6 skill points, d8 HD, average base attack.

Crusader//Incarnate
What you get: Delayed Damage 5, furious Counter strike, full profficiencies, good starting gear, maneouvers and Soulmelds: Astral Vambraces for DR/Magic and a range of other useful Items. You also get Detect Opposition and some inbuilt incarnum enhancements. Crusader maneouvers allow you to heal.
Stats 3 Good saves, full base attack, d10 HD, 4 skill points.

Crusader//Cloistered Cleric
What you get: Wisdom based Divine spells, 3 domains (or devotion feats) Crusader abilities, lore class feature. Turn undead and it's relevant feats, of which Divine Soul stands out: Immediate healing of 3+cha modifier, by expending a turn attempt.
Stats: Good Fort and Will, full base attack, d10 HD, 6 skill points.

Shape Shifter Druid//Monk
Disclaimer: This build loses out beyond the lower levels. Try retraining to get wildshape back.
What you get: +4 Strength, +4 Natural armour, Wisdom Based Divine spells, Wisdom to AC, faster movement, Flurry of blows with bite, Bonus feats which are useful to predator form, such as weapon finesse, improved grapple or some other feats. (Check out the variant monk bonus feat options)
Stats: 3 Good Saves, average base attack, 4 skill points, d8 HD.

Halfling Rogue//Barbarian
What you get: 2d6 sneak attack at range, +1 on attack rolls with thrown weapons, Rage, fast movement, trapfinding. Using Ferocity, you boost your attack and damage with shruikens, taking two weapon fighting.
Stats: Good fort and will, D12 HD, 8 skill points, good base attack.

Halfling Rogue//Halfling Monk
What you get: Skirmish, 2d6 Ranged sneak attack, (with shruikens), Wis to AC, trapfinding, bonus feat. Take two weapon fighting and rapid shot, as well as Travel Devotion (Strongheart Halfling). You get +1 on attack rolls for shruikens, boosted by another for small. If you get dex 18 or 20, your attack is incredibly high, and you're dealing out 3d6 damage in most circumstances. All you need is a concealment giver and you're crazy good.
Stats: d6 HD, 8 skill points, average base attack, 3 good saves.

Drow Abjurerer//Factotum
What you get: Abrupt Jaunt (teleport 10' as an immediate action, ultimate get out of jail free card) Int mod/day, Int to attack, damage or saves, 4 level 1 spells, 4 level 0 spells, of which all are useful, e.g. Kelgore's fire bolt, Mage armour, grease, etc.
For feats, Keen Intellect puts your Int to will saves. Font of Inspiration gets you more Inpiration. Mind over Body gets your Int to HP and +1 to AC.
So You can just spend inspiration (with Dex and Int 20) and fire bolts of fire (with spellgifted) For +10 ranged for 2d6+5 damage. A great build.

*WIP*
I'll edit stuff in as we decide on more stuff. Let's hear it folks!

Synergy Table, Abiliities and everything else:

{table]Name|Type|Reqs(Real)|Benefit|Mitigates
Str|
Brutal Throw|Feat|Str>Dex|Str to ranged attacks with thrown weapons|Dex.
Dex|
Finesse|Feat|Dex>Str|Dex to melee|Str
Shadowblade|Feat|Swordsage|Dex to damage|Str
Combat Reflexes|Feat|Dex 14+|+dex AoOs|-
Int|
Keen Intellect|Feat|Int>Wis|Int to Will saves|Wis
Insightful Reflexes|Feat|Int>Dex|Int to reflex|Dex
Carmendine Monk|Feat|Int>Wis|Int to AC/monk|Wis
Mind Over Body|Feat|Int>Con|Int to HP 1st level, other|Con
Special Ability Wizards|ACF|Wiz, specialist|Int/day: Abrupt Jant, Instant Daze, Urgent Shield|-
Wis|
Wisdom Breeds Caution|Feat|Deep Gnome|Wis to HP 1st level|Con
Ancestral Knowledge|Feat|Dwarf, Wis>Int|Wis to Know checks, good with Know Devotion|Int
Zen Archery|Feat|Wis>Dex|Wis to ranged attacks.
Cha|
Mind over Body|Feat|Cha>hp|Cha to HP 1st level, other|Con[/table]



EDIT: Added Class table
EDIT 1: Added Jack Simth's Ideas
EDIT 2: Added some of Candycorn's advice
EDIT 3: Added Choice Builds
EDIT 4: Added Several Classes to Table
EDIT 5: Added contents list
EDIT 6: Added Factotum
EDIT 7: Added SS Druid//Monk disclaimer
EDIT 8: Fixed Disrupter text.
Edit 9: Added a ability table, WIP.

Dante

huttj509
2010-06-28, 05:57 AM
PEACH?

Not recognizing the acronym.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-28, 05:58 AM
What about casting/manifesting centric builds that revolve around being able to do everything at once? Where do they fall in your guide? Are you going to expand the guide to discuss the differences in power that accrue between gestalts formed of differently tiered classes?


PEACH?

Not recognizing the acronym.

Please-Evaluate-And-Critique-Honestly

2xMachina
2010-06-28, 08:19 AM
NED optimization is... IMO, unique.

It's not usual to have endurance solo runs. And low levels makes options even harder to get.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 05:44 PM
What about casting/manifesting centric builds that revolve around being able to do everything at once? Where do they fall in your guide? Are you going to expand the guide to discuss the differences in power that accrue between gestalts formed of differently tiered classes?



Casting/Manifesting builds which do everything at once, I put them as Disrupters. Disrupters "disrupt" opponenents and smash them once they've done so.

Yes, I'm working on a table with all the benefits you get from running a class on a side of gestalt. This should help people see the link between certain classes.

@2xMachina: Yes, it is. This guide I want to be a general guide to Gestalt optimization. A lot of my friends had trouble understanding gestalt and building something competitive.

Should I include a list of good combinations? E.g. Duskblade/Warblade?

Dante

Ajadea
2010-06-28, 07:17 PM
Beguiler is a Intelligence/Charisma focused class, I think. Sorcerers are Charisma-focused. Cleric and Druid are Wisdom-focused.

{table]Stat|Class|Benefit|Scaling|Additional
Charisma|Bard|Skills, Spells, Support|Not sure|Bardic Music, Armored Casting
Strength, Constitution|Dragon Shaman|Attack, Support|Full|Breath Weapon, Natural Armor, Draconic Auras
Physical Stats|Fighter|Attack|1 feat/2 levels|A whole bunch of proficiencies
Constitution, Charisma|Knight|Attack|Good|Best BAB, Knight's challenge, Good Will Save:smalleek:
Strength, Constitution|Barbarian|Attack|Full|Fast movement, Rage, Uncanny Dodge
Strength, Dexterity|Ranger|AC, skills, attack|Spells like Paladin|Favored Enemy
[/table]

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 08:09 PM
Good idea, I'll add Bard to the list. What's the consensus on how it can be improved?

Dante

Jack_Simth
2010-06-28, 08:24 PM
My general advice for gestalt:

1) Remember the action economy. Sure, you've got two classes to play around with... but your Fighter//Wizard-1 won't be power attacking for full while he's laying down a Grease spell. You generally want one side to be "Active" (Full Attacks, Spells, standard-action specials, and so on) and the other to be "Passive" (HP, AC, saves, long-duration spells, immunities, swift actions, and such).

2) Avoid MAD like the plague. Sure, that Wizard//Cleric-1 looks good on paper... but in practice, you've got to worry about Int, Wis, Con, and Dex - four fairly prime stats, and you've only got so many good rolls, or so many points to distribute. You want your classes to be based on as few stats as possible, ideally arranging things so that one side's class features actually reduce the number of stats you need (the Druid//Ninja can work out ridiculously well - after 5th or so, all it needs is Wis and Con; before then, it slinks around and hides behind it's animal companion).

3) Avoid class features that are negated by class liabilities. The Fighter//Wizard has a problem: He can't use his armor proficiency and his arcane spells at the same time efficiently. The Fighter//Cleric doesn't have that problem, though, as the Cleric can cast in heavy armor... and the Druid//Ninja works out great, as the Ninja can't wear armor, and the Druid can't use the good armors... and can't use any but specialty armors in Wild Shape.

4) Mask glaring weaknesses. This is Gestalt. You should have at least 3/4th's BAB, two (or preferably three) good saves, and at least a d8 hit die. Additionally, you should be a Full Caster on at least one side.

5) Watch your power curve. At 1st, a melee brute such as a fighter or Barbarian will do quite well. At 20th, it'll be blown away by a Full caster such as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid. A Skillmonkey such as the Rogue, Ninja, or Bard is fairly mid-range at most levels. This is Gestalt - you can do both.

6) Check the multiclassing rules carefully. The Sorcerer-11//Monk-2 (taking Ascetic Mage at some point, of course)/Paladin of Tyrrany-2/Hexblade-3/Arcane Duelist-2/Blackguard-2 looks ugly on a character sheet... but all base classes other than Sorcerer are within one level of each other, and everything gets some nice bonus or another from Charisma. Evasion, Mettle, Charisma to AC twice, Charisma to saves twice (three times vs. Spells and Spell-like abilities), and Charisma based spellcasting. Hard to hit mundanely, hard to affect with spells, and 4d8+7d10+11*Con Mod hit points. You have a tough cookie with a Sorcerer's full battery of attack options. But multi-classing rules might require you do something, you know, sane.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 08:32 PM
Nice, Jack Simth, mind If I add some of that to the OP?
I personally don't think two casting stats such as Wiz/Cleric is terrible. You just need Wis/Int 12 (If you're not planning to go past 3rd level, but then again...) to get a bonus spell. The Save DC is not always needed.

That said, I agree spells like colour spray are worth a high stat. I'll be adding the action economy to the OP later; Should I classify casters under three catrgories, such as active, actual passive, or pre-combat buffs or just put them as "casters"?

Dante

dextercorvia
2010-06-28, 08:46 PM
Nice, Jack Smith, mind If I add some of that to the OP?
I personally don't think two casting stats such as Wiz/Cleric is terrible. You just need Wis/Int 12 (If you're not planning to go past 3rd level, but then again...) to get a bonus spell. The Save DC is not always needed.


At low levels its even more important. When you are limited to a very few spells/day, you want them to be encounter enders, not meh-damage. And High casting stat is the best way to achieve this at low levels.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 08:57 PM
I'm not sure. Mental score 12 gets you 1 bonus spell of 1st level, which is the highest you can get at 1st level anyway. You need a score of 20 to get 2 bonus 1st level spells. That's a huge investment to get an extra spell over Int 12. I would rather put the 18 into a 16 and a 14 in dex and con. However, the spell DC is handy. It depends on your casting stance. If you're using the caster as the offence, sure thing. If you're using it for buffing, obviously you don't need stat 20. If you're doing swift passive casting, that works with the middle ground.

But I will put it in the OP.

Dante

Jack_Simth
2010-06-28, 08:58 PM
Nice, Jack Smith, mind If I add some of that to the OP?
That's the reason it's there. Just make sure to reference your sources, and get the spelling right.


I personally don't think two casting stats such as Wiz/Cleric is terrible. You just need Wis/Int 12 (If you're not planning to go past 3rd level, but then again...) to get a bonus spell. The Save DC is not always needed.
It is and it isn't. See, you can do a Wizard//Cleric with an Int of 16 and a Wis of 12... if you don't expect to go past 4th level. However: Every monkey and it's uncle will resist your Cleric spells. You can put long-duration buffs there (no save, no combat action), and you can put utility spells there (for when the action economy doesn't matter)... but really, it's a waste of resources. Sure it can be made to work... but there's a lot of things that will go better there.



That said, I agree spells like colour spray are worth a high stat. I'll be adding the action economy to the OP later; Should I classify casters under three catrgories, such as active, actual passive, or pre-combat buffs or just put them as "casters"?

Dante
For the most part, you just classify them as casters. Semi-passive (swift-action), pre-combat (long-duration), and utility spells are spell selection based, not class selection based. It's very useful to make the distinction, but do bear in mind: It's not based on the class itself. You can have a Wizard//Fighter that casts several hours/level buffs, then gets into his armor and swings his sword at the baddies. If you're doing that, then Wizard is a passive class. But the Wizard can also be the active class, casting Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Web, or Cloud of Bewilderment to end the encounter. It's spell-selection based.

dextercorvia
2010-06-28, 09:02 PM
I'm not sure. Mental score 12 gets you 1 bonus spell of 1st level, which is the highest you can get at 1st level anyway. You need a score of 20 to get 2 bonus 1st level spells. That's a huge investment to get an extra spell over Int 12. I would rather put the 18 into a 16 and a 14 in dex and con. However, the spell DC is handy. It depends on your casting stance. If you're using the caster as the offence, sure thing. If you're using it for buffing, obviously you don't need stat 20. If you're doing swift passive casting, that works with the middle ground.

But I will put it in the OP.

Dante

It is the save DC I was referring to. Ending encounters with a single spell goes a long way toward an endurance run.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-28, 09:09 PM
@Jack Simth, thanks, I'll do that.
@dextercorvia, Yeah, I figured.

Some good points on Save-or-Die spells are to kept in mind. I'll also put in notes on Action Economy.

Dante

Dingle
2010-06-29, 02:57 PM
why no factotum?

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-29, 03:32 PM
You also haven't put in my favorite classes so far. They being Dread Necromancer and Archivist, both of them being from the Heroes of Horror.

Also, for the sake of completeness, you will need to eventually add Truenamer, Shadowcaster, and Binder. As well as few other classes that are in the Magic of Incarnum.

It's a good start, I haven't played Gestalt yet. So, I'll have to keep this in mind if I ever do.

Zovc
2010-06-29, 04:13 PM
3) Avoid class features that are negated by class liabilities. The Fighter//Wizard has a problem: He can't use his armor proficiency and his arcane spells at the same time efficiently. The Fighter//Cleric doesn't have that problem, though, as the Cleric can cast in heavy armor... and the Druid//Ninja works out great, as the Ninja can't wear armor, and the Druid can't use the good armors... and can't use any but specialty armors in Wild Shape.

While this advice is sound, there are ways to dance around your example's issue.

For example, Wizard 1//"Armored Mage" Fighter 1 (Complete Mage) loses his Medium and Heavy armor proficiencies, and gains the ability to cast wearing light armor and a light shield without penalty. Alternate Class Features often allow for a lot of shenanigans like this, especially in gestalt.

I think instead of "Avoid class features that are negated by class liabilities", your general tip should be "Make sure class features jive". :)

Ajadea
2010-06-29, 04:30 PM
I personally like Paladin//Battle Sorcerer with the Paladin as the passive side and the Battle Caster feat. Saves go through the roof, and when worst comes to worst, pick up that sword and start hitting things.

Monk//Druid is also decent. Monk is passive, naturally. Move fast, Wisdom to AC, full Wisdom-based casting, 3 good saves, and a whole bunch of random useless abilities that give flavor, if nothing else. Not sure about Ninja//Druid, as I don't have Complete Adventurer.

If you rolled 2 18s or are on high Point Buy, maybe a Battle Sorcerer//Cloistered Cleric. Either side can be active, really, but I like blasty-type sorcerer spells and buffing/healing in the cleric slots, making Battle Sorcerer active and Cloistered Cleric passive. The fact that both classes are only proficient with light armor works out just fine, and I can't see anyone complaining about 6+Int skill points or Lore. 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, light armor (no shields), and can cast in that armor too.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-29, 04:58 PM
@Jack Smith, thanks, I'll do that. You might want to double-check the spelling of my screen name again.


While this advice is sound, there are ways to dance around your example's issue.

For example, Wizard 1//"Armored Mage" Fighter 1 (Complete Mage) loses his Medium and Heavy armor proficiencies, and gains the ability to cast wearing light armor and a light shield without penalty. Alternate Class Features often allow for a lot of shenanigans like this, especially in gestalt.

I think instead of "Avoid class features that are negated by class liabilities", your general tip should be "Make sure class features jive". :)
Yes, there are ways to dance around the highly-specific example. But then, your armored mage is a variant class, not a Fighter per-se. You got rid of the feature-negated-by-liability by trading out the feature for a specific mitigation. Besides, a feycraft +1 twilight mithral chain shirt, and a Mithril Buckler have no ASF. Or you can give up on using armors, and instead use spells to the same effect (which is not inherently a bad strategy).

But then you're starting to get into "How many of which sources are permitted?" and similar questions - which are highly table-specific.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-29, 05:23 PM
You also haven't put in my favorite classes so far. They being Dread Necromancer and Archivist, both of them being from the Heroes of Horror.


Yeah, I'm still completing it. I've just picked up MoI, Complete Champion and Complete Mage. I'm yet to pick up Tome of Magic or Heroes of Horror. Same @Dingle.



Also, for the sake of completeness, you will need to eventually add Truenamer, Shadowcaster, and Binder. As well as few other classes that are in the Magic of Incarnum.


Yup, I'll be adding that a bit later. If someone has these books could add it here I could post it up. :smallsmile:



It's a good start, I haven't played Gestalt yet. So, I'll have to keep this in mind if I ever do.

Thanks! We'll be adding in good class combos... I like your suggestions, everyone!

@Jack Simth, sorry, I missed it. Thanks a lot for your help :smallsmile:
Thanks.

Dante

Milskidasith
2010-06-29, 05:30 PM
If you rolled 2 18s or are on high Point Buy, maybe a Battle Sorcerer//Cloistered Cleric. Either side can be active, really, but I like blasty-type sorcerer spells and buffing/healing in the cleric slots, making Battle Sorcerer active and Cloistered Cleric passive. The fact that both classes are only proficient with light armor works out just fine, and I can't see anyone complaining about 6+Int skill points or Lore. 2 good saves, 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, light armor (no shields), and can cast in that armor too.

It's still more effective to go sorcerer//paladin or cleric//something based on wisdom, since you'd be able to put an 18 in con or dex.

Zovc
2010-06-29, 09:40 PM
It's still more effective to go sorcerer//paladin or cleric//something based on wisdom, since you'd be able to put an 18 in con or dex.

Such as a Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster), who can cast Sorcerer/Wizard spells off of Wisdom, in armor! :3

The three Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) can all be put to good use in gestalt, the "Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)" will probably trump the Generic Expert in a lot of cases, though, either ACFing away Trapfinding and Evasion, or getting those in addition to the fighter bonus feats.

@Jack_Simth: My point still stands, I think. Besides, Fighter 1 lets you not spend money making your armor compatible with your class, or lets you make medium armor into light armor and not worry about its Arcane Spell Failure. Sure, you can circumvent the ASF by investing in armor that doesn't have ASF, but you could invest in light armor that does something else with the aforementioned fighter ACF. It all depends on the build, but I was merely trying to make a counterpoint to justify my rewording of your 'tip'. :)

Edit: Added d20srd links.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-30, 01:42 AM
@Zovc, Yes, it would, but Generic class is something not allowed from unearthed arcana in the arena and the NED. It may work but is unlikely to be allowed. I'll still add it regardless.

Dante

candycorn
2010-06-30, 02:13 AM
I've been told that one of the best ways to optimize is to do the same thing, multiple times, in different ways.

For Example, Defense:

Crusader: Can delay 5 damage, can heal, can wear good armor.

with either:

Incarnate: Can gain DR (Astral Vambraces), ranged attacks (Dissolving Spittle).
At level 2, can bypass DR, or ignore miss chances (through binds to Crown Chakra. One gives your melee attacks the Force Descriptor, another lets you ignore any miss chance unless it's from total concealment (including things like blur)

or

Cloistered Cleric: Can Gain Healing, Domain Access (and through it, free devotion feats)

Note: Cloistered Cleric gives up a D8 HD (Crusader already negated that with a D10), Average BAB (Crusader already negated that as well with full BAB), and Armor/weapon Proficiency (Again, crusader negated that with equal or better selection)... In exchange for an extra Domain and 6+Int skill points.

That's a good trade all around.

Cadian 9th
2010-06-30, 02:31 AM
I've been told that one of the best ways to optimize is to do the same thing, multiple times, in different ways.


Same here, good point. In your example, it's true: A good combo. The only thing I can think of that might do well would be the Ardent on one side with crusader, taking the Consumption Mantle. The granted power allows you to gain 5 thp when someone within 10' is wounded, which is quite handy when you have steely resolve. As with all mantle powers, you only need to recharge focus to get it again. The power, Hungry Touch, also does d6 damage and grants you the damage dealt as Thp, which is also elegant with Steely Resolve.

Added the beggining of Class selection to the OP, as well as Alphabetized the ability table. Debating wether to add Physical stats to the table. Whatcha think?

Dante

VirOath
2010-06-30, 01:04 PM
Just adding my own two cents to this. But in terms of Gestalt, some classes that are good become stupidly strong to pair up.

Like Druid//Ninja, Factotum//(Anything that uses a high Int) is remarkably effective. Factotum is flexible enough to be the action side, but really shines in the passive side.

After all, if it is higher than level 8 it is just plain broken. This is because you get to bend the action economy over a barrel and have your way with it. Extra standard actions on anything that doesn't use Full Attacks can be encounter breaking, more so since your points refresh every encounter.

Add to it all of the boosts that the points can give you without spending actions (Int to anything. If you need to roll, you can add your Int to it, unless it is skills, then you can also add your Factotum Level to some of them), False Wizard Spellcasting, False Cleric class features (Healing and Turn Undead uses in one nice little package), Trapfinding, on top of a class skill list of (Yes) with 6 + Int skill points per level, means that so long as you aren't making yourself MAD, why not?

Cadian 9th
2010-07-02, 04:56 AM
Nice, I'll be sure to add those builds to the OP. I found that straight druid/ninja is slightly weak, especially at 1st level. Perhaps if I was shapeshifter I would do better, but in the end the action economy and the MADness of it all made it hard to pull off. I can see it doing well at later levels.

Dante

Ajadea
2010-07-05, 08:35 PM
Duskblade//Cleric or Spellthief.

Channel your harm spell into your greatsword. Or steal their harm spell, stick it into your greatsword, sneak attack them, and repeat. All that it says in the SRD about monks, clerics, fists, and touch spells applies to duskblades, clerics, BFS's, and touch spells.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-05, 08:43 PM
Nice, I'll be sure to add those builds to the OP. I found that straight druid/ninja is slightly weak, especially at 1st level. Perhaps if I was shapeshifter I would do better, but in the end the action economy and the MADness of it all made it hard to pull off. I can see it doing well at later levels.

DanteIt takes off at 5th (Wildshape, Pounce-capable forms) and hits Cruising Altitude at 6th (Natural Spell), yes. Lower-levels are usually survivable with a combat-ready Companion (Riding Dog at 1st, Ape or something with Pounce at 4th)

thompur
2010-07-05, 09:11 PM
My favorite combo, not necessarily for power, but for fun, is
Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Binder. Actually, the Binder is a great class for gestalt, since many abilities are ongoing, and few classes are more versatile.

mrcarter11
2010-07-06, 12:41 AM
How well does binder/swordsage work?

Cadian 9th
2010-07-06, 01:55 AM
My favorite combo, not necessarily for power, but for fun, is
Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Binder. Actually, the Binder is a great class for gestalt, since many abilities are ongoing, and few classes are more versatile.

I'm not sure about Binder, as I haven't got Tome of Magic yet, and I don't have Dungeonscape. Swordsage anything works well IMO, as the maneouvers are generally all useful, and the skills all help. It works best with a wisdom based class to max out your AC bonus and your Save DCs. However, Swordsages are active if you want them to do well, (besides stances) and so you'll need to pick a passive focused class for the other side. From what I hear, it would work well. I'll get back to you on that one.

@Ajadea: Lol, agreed. Duskblade as a general side works well, full base attack, 2 good saves, full profficiencies and d8 HD is decent without spellcasting, and they have that too, so they're even better. At lower levels, (1-2) they're not quite as awsome though.

@Jack Simth: Yeah, I'd love to try that out. Shapeshifter druid is pretty brill at earlier levels, and is cool if you want unlimited diet-wild-shaping. Druid (wether SS or Wildshaping) is brilliant with psionics as it gets to manifest still. So you can camp in, Iunno, ravid form, getting +15 natural armour and perfect flying, and cast with impunity. And psionics scale well too.

I'll be updating the OP soon. Sorry it took me a while :D

Dante

thompur
2010-07-06, 08:44 AM
The great thing about Binders is that you can change abilities day to day, depending on what you need. Each Vestige has a unique set of abilities which it grants you. So it's good for any other class with which to gestalt.

Now I love the Binder class. It made the Tome of Magic worth the price for me all by itself, which is fortunate, since Shadowcasting is a bore, and Truenaming, while a really neat concept, was horrendous in execution.

Darth Stabber
2010-07-06, 09:26 AM
More Good Combos
Wizard or Psion//Swashbuckler - Full BAB, All Saves, d10hd.
A menagerie of decent abilities, several int based.

Paladin//Wilder - Full BAB, fort will, d10hd
The problem with sorc//pallies is the armor, Wilder solves this problem gloriously.

Barbarian//Totemist - Full BAB, fort ref, d12hd.
Melee wrecking ball, able to change certain class features from day to day. Highly synergistic, highly flavorful, massive CON synergy. My personal favorite gestalt build. If you don't have 5 attacks a round by lvl 6, you are seriously doing it wrong, and adding pounce is a breeze. What's scarier than an angry barbarian, an angry barbarian with animal parts growing out of him. Only way to maintain illiteracy in offical materials.

Dragon Shaman//Bard - 3/4 BAB, all saves, d10hd
Support machine. Buff spells: check. Bardic music: check. Area buff that requires no actions: check. Charisma synergy: check. also secondary stat is CON which is alway a good secondary. Also one of the best healers that do not involve dread necromancer (you really don't need full cleric healing, when everyone has fast healing 1 up to half hp). Has all the skills and spells for a good diplomancer (with possiblity of free skill foci).

Wizard//Monk(with kungfu genius) - 3/4 BAB, all saves, d8hd
add INT to stuff, punch people with spells, and don't forget fast.

Archivist//Duskblade - full BAB, fort will, d8hd
Lots of good divine touch spells to channel. Channeled heal upside a vampire's head FTW.

Ranger//Incarnate - full BAB, all saves, d8hd
Subtler, slightly MADer version of totemist//barb. Host of abilities, probably the best skill monkey in gestalt, with excellent abilities in combat with either style tree.

Gnaeus
2010-07-06, 09:35 AM
However, Swordsages are active if you want them to do well, (besides stances) and so you'll need to pick a passive focused class for the other side. From what I hear, it would work well. I'll get back to you on that one.

Swordsages can be played well as a passive side. You just choose a bunch of swift or immediate actions (or the shadow hand teleport as a move action) as maneuvers. Anyone but a very high level caster will enjoy having a range of swift and immediate actions at their disposal.

Theodoxus
2010-07-06, 10:05 AM
@Jack Simth: Yeah, I'd love to try that out. Shapeshifter druid is pretty brill at earlier levels, and is cool if you want unlimited diet-wild-shaping. Druid (wether SS or Wildshaping) is brilliant with psionics as it gets to manifest still. So you can camp in, Iunno, ravid form, getting +15 natural armour and perfect flying, and cast with impunity. And psionics scale well too.

Dante

I have a player who always goes Druid 1/Psion x with SS varient (it's become the official druid form in my campaigns, though I grant them an AC at 4th, which scales at Level -3 (instead of the crappy ranger 1/2 level). Anyway, he loves the idea of walking around looking like a mangy dog while manifesting explosions on the bad guys. He also particularly likes the astral constructs, so he'll typically have one being his 'master' - confuses the crap out of mooks.

Druid//Psion seems a bit both MAD and action poor. There aren't a lot of buffs the druid side would get to make the Psion better, and vice versa - they're both typically active when taken as gestalt. I could see Druid 1/Wiz x//Psion, with the SS varient... Wizard for utility, and better synergy. With that, you could definitely drop Wis, as you won't be casting from the druid side except for maybe emergency emergency CLW. Not as much fun as having flight form or air elemental form - but it would be very powerful in its own right.

Darth Stabber
2010-07-06, 11:30 AM
Good passive sides
Binder - Day to day versatility, most vestiges have good passive effects. also a few decent active type abilities, but with their cool-down they don't interfere too much with the active side.

Incarnate/totemist - they might want you swift action, unless they grant a special attack (usually decent). The daily rebuild aspect is nice and it's more customizable than binder. Both favor CON, incarnate may need some WIS (sets save DCs, but you can just use stuff with no save and move along, totemists are all but CON SAD). Incarnate is the more skillful of the two, totemist the more combative.

Rogue - 8+ skill points, reflex save, sneak attack, variety of harm avoidance abilities. There is a lot to be said about rogue as a passive half, their primary offensive ability is bonus damage when a condition is me. If you have another meleer than you are in business. The extra skills and huge skill list give you stuff to do out of combat (or when you run out of spells). Obvious DEX favoritism, but not needed as a passive half

Fighter - If you need fort save, good hit die, and full BAB this is the go to. Not going to win any elegance contests, but it gets the job done, and the fighter feat list has something for everyone. There is a variant fighter that trades medium and heavy armor proff for cast arcane spells in light armor. I think it was in Dragon, so it may not be okay with the GM. When used as a passive side, you really don't need any particular stat, mostly Str or Dex, but not necessary.

Dragon Shaman - The only active ability this class has is breath weapon. Lay on hands on steroids: check, no effort needed area buff: check. Crazy other non-action specials: check. Charisma and Constitution based.

Paladin - full bab, good hit die, fort save. other than CHA, has few other requirements (other than wisdom for spells). The spell list is short and support based, but are generally useful to anyone. Cha to saves, and some other non-spell support (lay on hands, remove disease). Smites may be useful (though I would never let that be a deciding factor). There is also a feat in Dragon Compendium that moves charisma dependencies to wisdom. free horse.

Ranger - like rogue only full bab, 1step bigger hit die and favors for as well. 2 less skill points, but that can be forgiven. Combat style feats are nice, stealth based specials are good, favored enemy is not an ability I like in particular, but has it's uses. Skill list is not as deep as rogue or bard, but is great in natural environments. Good midpoint between rogue and fighter. Really good for a caster aiming at gishing. Spells require wisdom, and the list is really short, but there is some decent stuff in there (arguably better than paladin). Works fine with negative WIS any way, given the depth of the class. (look at Belkar). Free horse

Soulborn - I know that someone is going to flame me for this but I am listing it anyway. Full bab, good fort, d10hd, replaces that pally wackiness for some soulmelds (like buff spells, only rarely ever take and action), and instead of CHA to saves you get a random immunity and later the ability to share it. And slightly better smiting (as in same but hits two alignment component instead of one. no free horse

Monk - the classic, d8hd, favors all saves, fair skills, armor-less ac bonus. wisdom added to a lot. extra attacks. lots of random specials (like speed, and free weapon, no-aging, free feather fall). If you have a decent wisdom score and have no interest in wearing armor, consider this class. On it's own monk sucks, but in Gestalt it has a chance to really shine. Kung Fu genius moves wis dependence to int dependence.

Scout - Take rogue, give it the ranger skill list, your close to scout then. The extra damage has different conditions, but are great for charger builds and highly mobile builds. If you don't like hiding, or flanking but do like moving, you want this over rogue.

Can go either way:
Warlock/DFA - Seems like a full caster, but given the variety of all day buff and out of combat invocs it might have just what you need. Free ranged/breath weapon is not too bad either. Some cha dependence but if you are going for all day buffs it is not a huge deal.

Barbarian - Full BAB, Largest HD, fair skills, Fort save. Several good special abilities, none that require an action. More speed, more anger. Can't cast during rage, but I think you can still use ToB maneuvers. Can be considered active or passive depending on it runs opposite of.

Duskblade - only mentioned as the ability to cast other classes spells part of a full attack is freaking scary. Primarily an active half, but can be passive for a Wizards and Archivists (the only active classes to pair it up with). The fort save, d8 HD, and full bab are great for those classes too. I like it better with archivist, but any difference in power is subject to debate.


Good Active halves need little explanation:
Full casters/manifesters
ToB classes
single class gishes (psywar, duskblade, ect)
Anything else that has standard action based abilities

Darth Stabber
2010-07-06, 01:49 PM
Also the OP has one glaring error. Totemist save DCs are based on CON. That is way to awesome to ignore. All of their class abilities are CON dependant. you can shaft all of you mental stats and your class features will not notice. I read the chapter yesterday to confirm. I don't know about soulborn, but they suck so I don't care.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-06, 07:38 PM
Also the OP has one glaring error. Totemist save DCs are based on CON. That is way to awesome to ignore. All of their class abilities are CON dependant. you can shaft all of you mental stats and your class features will not notice. I read the chapter yesterday to confirm. I don't know about soulborn, but they suck so I don't care.

Wow, an influx of new posts.
I'll change that, oops. I've got to disagree in saying that all Totemists need is con. You'll still need to be able to do something. I think you'll need dexterity at least. Mind if I add your material to the OP?

Monks can also use other feats to shift their Wis dependance to Int or Cha as well. They are particularly good when gestalted with, say, Shapeshifter druid or just Druid due to the natural armour and the fact that Flurry works with natural weapons.

@Theodoxus I would agree. Especially as the Ardent has so much more synergy with the Druid. Specifically due to the Mantles. That said, Psion works really well in wildshape, but Ardent does it better.

@thompur I will be picking up Tome of Magic soon, it sounds cool. If someone wants to do a rundown I'd be happy for that, it'll go straight onto the OP.

@Gnaeus True. I was thinking of the 4th level feature where you get wis to damage. Combined with a shadow hand stance, you can get dex to damage with shadow blade, be an Ardent, wear elven chain or something.

It may be worth being a Synad, for mutlitask and Oracle. It might be limited per day, but could turn out very very handy. 3 bonus power points, as well as aberration and +2 will (making you more resistant to spells) (alter self for all sorts of crazy stuff).

Dante

Darth Stabber
2010-07-07, 08:27 AM
So Soulborn are CON based as well (checked it). When I said totemist only need CON, I was assuming that there was already some stat being used for that on the other side.

Also - Good Passive Side PRCs (aka the non caster ones from dmg, seriously, all of the PRCs for non casters are all non-actiony goodness.)
Horizon Walker - Full BAB, d10hd, fort/ref
no active abilities, and a wide variety on decent (not great) passive ones.
Dwarven Defender - Full BAB, d12hd, fort/will
much like barbarian, only not moving. +free ac, and the favoring will is good on a fighter PRC.
Duelist - Full BAB, d10hd, ref
not good on it's own, but has lots of passive that may be good in gestalt. Int synergies are always fun. Though if you have int as a main stat, you are probably taking your PRCs on the other side.
Dragon Disciple - 3/4 BAB, d12hd, fort/will
Interesting in that it is nearly all passives ('cept the breath weapon). Check with you GM to ensure the bonus spells can be added to a class on the other side (if not, see if he will let you ignore them and still run this opposite your caster side).
Shadow Dancer - 3/4 BAB, d8hd, ref
Mostly defensive non action abilities. Usefull if you are stealthy.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-07, 07:23 PM
Hmmm, Duellist? I think Enternal blade does a bit better, as you can add int to attack, damage, and AC, not limited by class level. But it is a handy class.

I wasn't thinking of going for prestige classes, but you've inspired me so I think'll do another thread for mid level to high level gestalt. :smallsmile:

Also, Soulborn is not a factor :D He's got some good abilities, but.

Thanks. Anyone up for Tome of Magic and Dungeonscape input? I can't get the book (the guy I was getting them from lost them, :smallannoyed: )

Dante

Roc Ness
2010-07-07, 09:08 PM
Dungeonscape is pretty easy. There are a few neat Substitution levels, the most notable of which is the Rogue's (lets you SA crit-immune creatures) and the Barbarian's (Gain trapfinding, use Attack rolls to disable traps).

The most important bit of Dungeonscape, though, is the Factotum Base Class. Its pretty easy to list.
Intelligence|Factotum|Pretty Much Everything, including Attack, Damage, AC, Skills, etc. Limited times per encounter, infinite times out of combat.

The Factotum is pretty much King of Gestalt, thanks to one important ability: It gets bonus Standard Actions per Encounter. Punch action economy through the wall. In some cases SAD Int synergy becomes just a bonus...

Cadian 9th
2010-07-07, 09:14 PM
Dungeonscape is pretty easy. There are a few neat Substitution levels, the most notable of which is the Rogue's (lets you SA crit-immune creatures) and the Barbarian's (Gain trapfinding, use Attack rolls to disable traps).

The most important bit of Dungeonscape, though, is the Factotum Base Class. Its pretty easy to list.
Intelligence|Factotum|Pretty Much Everything, including Attack, Damage, AC, Skills, etc. Limited times per encounter, infinite times out of combat.

The Factotum is pretty much King of Gestalt, thanks to one important ability: It gets bonus Standard Actions per Encounter. Punch action economy through the wall. In some cases SAD Int synergy becomes just a bonus...

Ooo. Thankee. I'll add that to the OP. How'd you rate this guide, what is missing do you think? Whats good?

Dante

Roc Ness
2010-07-07, 09:27 PM
Ooo. Thankee. I'll add that to the OP. How'd you rate this guide, what is missing do you think? Whats good?

Dante

Rate: 5 stars :smallsmile:
Missing: Not sure. I'm not good with remembering classes... but I can think of the Knight, the Dragon Shaman and the Dragonfire Adept. I have no idea what stats are useful for the Knight, though.
{table]Constitution|Dragon Shaman|Breath Weapon DCs
-|Dragonfire Adept|Breath Weapon DCs[/table]

What's good: Everything. I particularly like the character role definitions, as well as the stat-based class table. :smallbiggrin:

aje8
2010-07-07, 10:46 PM
Seems like a good guide on the whole, but I think the choice builds section is lacking. Additionally, the idea that all builds should have average bab and decent HD seems wrong to me. While most build will, by chance, end up that way and most melee builds should aim for such things, if you're a caster in your active side and don't intend to Gish then you don't really care about anything other than class features and Casting stat synergy.

Couple of things:
SHAPESHIFT Druid/Monk? Um why? How about regular Druid/Monk, it's like shapeshift only instead of getting flat benefits you get one of the most powerful class features in DnD. Monk contributes almost as well to you Wildshaped as it does to you Shapeshifted. What you lose is easily outclassed by what you gain. I understand Shapeshift if the intent is to self nerf, but it seems incorrect to include that by default. It's not impossible that somebody's playing in a high-power game with no Gesalt experience.

Few more builds I think are worthy of note (ignore at you leisure of course)

Wizard/Factotum:
What you get: Int to everything per-encounter, Awesome Wizard spellcasting, infinite actions at level 8. Infinite actions to cast infinite spells in the first round, EVERY SINGLE COMBAT. A metric ton of skills (via 6 base and the fact that your int should be mega pumped.) Factotum also gives you healing. (for out of combat)
Stats: Good will and ref save, average base attack, 6 skill points, d8 HD.

Cloistered Cleric//Druid:
What you get: A metric ton of long duration spells (even more if you employ DMM, which you can even use on Druid spells) ,Wisdom based offensive spells, Animal companion, 3 Domains, Wildshape, Turn Undead and associated stuff,
Stats: Good fort and will, average BaB, 6 skill points, d8 HD

On the Cleric/Druid: There's no obvious active/passive side on this one, which is ok as you can kinda have both sides do both. Alternativley, PrC into something that emphasizes Wildshape at the expense of casting on the Druid side.(Master of Many Forms and Nature's Warrior are both very solid.) You'll probably have enough spells anyway, and if you pick up such a PrC, Druid is a pretty sweet passive side. Another solid build with Druid as a passive side is:

Druid/Swordsage:
Wisdom based casting, Wis to Ac, ALOT of Martial Manuevers, Disipline Focus abilitites, passive intiative boost, Evasion
Stats: All good saves, average BaB(sadly), 6+int skills, d8 HD

I also really like:
Factotum/Warlblade:
Martial Manuevers, Uncanny dodge, Int to critical confirmation, Int to damage vs. flanked or flatfooted foes, Int to attack and damage on AoOs, Int to everything from factotum, Limited Healing, Extra actions for Manuevers at level 8+, can gain Sneak Attack die via Factotum (very helpful at the low levels), Couple of spells per day, Tons of skills (and all as class skills)
Stats: All good saves, Full BaB, 6 skill points, D12 Hit die

Warlock/Crusader
Martial Manuevers, Cha to Will saves, Invocations (some Cha based, mostly long duration buffs), delayed damage pool, Furious Counter Strike, Small amounts of DR, 1/Day saving throw reroll, Mettle, Scaling Ranged Weapon, Small amounts of energy resitence
Stats:Good will and fort, Full Bab, 4 skill points, D10 Hit die

On Warlock/Crusader: Ok, now I'm impressed. Take one of the best tanking classes in DnD and remove all of it's weaknesses. Flight? Check. See Invisibility? Check. Ranged Weapon? Check. You even have things to do out of combat via The Dead Walk and the Shatter invocation. DR and Energy resitance improve your tanking while high level Invocation give you a couple of back up plans in combat. Oh, and you can still hit things really hard with Manuevers and gain all the goodies of the powerful Devoted Spirit school. This build makes up for what it lacks in power with a metric ton of synergy.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-07, 10:58 PM
ooo, good points. thanks for the compliments!

This guide is aimed at lower levels. I've tried SS Druid//Monk and it actually works really well. Shifting is a swift action so you can always just shift out and heal. Synad could work if you took hidden talent, getting you a power, (I recommend something like Vigour or Dimension Hop, to ensure full use of flurry) and the ability to gain an extra swift action 1/day.

I prolly will remove that build or at least disclaim it as anything but a low level build, yet I've had success with it so thought to include it. I'll include your builds, if thats alright with you.

What did you think of the Crusader//Cloistered Cleric build? It can do awsome by taking Divine Soul: Expend a turn attempt as an immediate action, healing 3+cha modifier hp. That'd be real handy, but I'm yet to try it.

Dante

aje8
2010-07-07, 11:07 PM
This guide is aimed at lower levels. I've tried SS Druid//Monk and it actually works really well. Shifting is a swift action so you can always just shift out and heal. Synad could work if you took hidden talent, getting you a power, (I recommend something like Vigour or Dimension Hop, to ensure full use of flurry) and the ability to gain an extra swift action 1/day.

I prolly will remove that build or at least disclaim it as anything but a low level build, yet I've had success with it so thought to include it. I'll include your builds, if thats alright with you.

What did you think of the Crusader//Cloistered Cleric build? It can do awsome by taking Divine Soul: Expend a turn attempt as an immediate action, healing 3+cha modifier hp. That'd be real handy, but I'm yet to try it.
Yeah, I'd love for you to include my builds.

Ok, I wasn't aware of the low level thing I'll try to keep it in mind. SS Druid//Monk is fine and all and it's not like it can actually be bad with Druid on one side, but Wildshape is almost always more powerful. I don't think the disclaimer is needed as the build is fine, it's just not nearly as good as it could be.

Crusader//Cloistered Cleric. I would worry a bit about Cleric on the passive side..... as DMM is pretty broken (thus I wouldn't use it) and there are not unlimited long duration buffs. However, it's probably fine. I would note though that Wisdom, Charisma, Strength and Con is a lot of stats, so without good rolls this build is problematic. Expended a turn attempt to heal 3+cha sounds pretty good, although that means keeping Cha high. (the least relevant of the 4 needed stats) Crusader has enough healing though that I think Travel Devotion (expend turn attempts to short distance teleport) might be better. Let's the Crusader half Full-Attack real good. Also gets out of grapples and that sort of thing. Again, the build not bad per se and with a great melee class on one side and Cleric on the other it can't be bad. That said, perhaps Cleric/Swordage would be better? I guess then you lose full bab and the large hitdie though so maybe not.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-07, 11:16 PM
Hmmm, good points. Please stick around, I like your input!

Crusader//Cloistered Cleric is alil MAD, I did it like this:
Synad: 3 bonus PP. +2 to one roll 1/day, extra swift action 1/day, aberration, +2 will.
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14
Feats: Divine Soul, Hidden Talent, Toughness/other
Domains: Undeath, Travel Devotion/other Devotion (Chaos or Law is okays), Knowledge devotion
Power: Vigour

At low levels, this works well. You've got 15 hp, good AC, full base attack. When you get injured, use vigour to get yourself 5thp, which is good with Steely resolve. Lets say you take a longsword and a heavy shield. You hit for +4 or 5 (Knowledge devotion) dealing d8+3 or 4. Taking the Undeath domain gets you extra turning, so you have a base of 9 turn attempts/day, which you can expend 1 to heal 5 immdediately, again useful with steely resolve.

Also, your crusader gets healing. If you're solo, taking Douse the Flames is handy, allowing you to cast a spell without having to move or worry.

Dante

aje8
2010-07-07, 11:31 PM
That build does look pretty good I must admit. The extra Swift-action from the seems awesome with ToB boosts... never heard of that race before. Bear in mind though, something like Lesser Assimar(+2 Wis, +2 Cha no -) could really help your mad. I'd for sure swap Wisdom and Cha. At level 5 you want to cast 3rd level spells and the first +2 to stat item you buy should be like Strength or Con.... you don't want to have to blow it on Wisdom. With a 14 Wisdom, you don't have to buy a +2 stat item for Wisdom till level 9, at which point it's not that big a deal. And why is the 16 dex? Dex is to what.... just AC? +1 Max if you're in Full Plate (which you should be ASAP) Probably make that a 12 inexchange for Strength.

Also.... why is weilding Longsword/Sheild? A tank build needs to be able to control the battlefield. For that you want a reach weapon. Not Spiked Chain as it's a bit overused and who wants to blow the feat? But a Lance, Glaive, Guisearme or something.

That aside, just throwing on some Cleric buffs and charging into combat seems really solid. And 6+Int skills on a melee focused build means your pretty darn relevant out of combat too. You can probably be the face. With all the built in healing AND the stance that heal 2 hp each hit AND Crusader strike, you're probably unkillable. You're feats and such thus need to focus on reach battlefield control so the enemies can't reach the squishes and have to fight through your unkillable self first.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-09, 08:34 PM
For ze maximun AC, and not having to burn feats. But you make a good point. Crusader//Cloistered cleric should be good at containing... Problem is beyond exotic weapon prof for chain, all other reach weapons make you unable to attack guys next to you. Perhaps quick draw, but you're starting to invest a lot of feats into the ability to simply thwart DMs - i.e. Normally, the big scary glowy crusader who's charging you draws more attention than the pixies at the back who cast not much.

I also intended it as a more solo build, perhaps I should include some party role sections, or should that be another thread? Whatcha think?

Dante

Ajadea
2010-07-11, 07:54 PM
Found another build that I thought could be interesting: Favored Soul//Sorcerer/Geomancer. Take the Education feat from Eberron, which gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills for all classes.

The result: completely spontaneous Charisma-based casting for sorcerer and cleric spells at Caster Level equal to total level, at the cost of looking like a mutant.

AdamSmasher
2010-07-11, 08:07 PM
It's AWFULLY hard to go wrong with an Evolved Ghost/Master of the Unseen Hand.

Ghost LA 5 and Evolvedx15 on one side, then a slew of Charisma abuse classes on the other. I've seen builds with saves in the 70s, AC in the 100s, the ability to Dungeoncrash and Constrict with a telekenesis full attack, Violent Thrust for 500 damage, and a slew of other horrible, horrible attacks and defenses for every situation.

And the damn thing can fight all day long without ever running out of resources.

Darth Stabber
2010-07-11, 11:47 PM
I can't say enough about having a totemist or incarnate passive side, especially for those with melee in mind. Since CON is a secondary stat for almost every melee build it should not be an issue, and the wisdom req for incarnate presents it as an attractive side bonus for Sword Sage. The totemist is more versatile yet, as it requires only CON and has no alignment restrictions.

Incarnate makes a good skillmonkey, since they can change what they are good at everyday, and there are several martially significant soulmelds in that book. But the real hero is Totemist. Natural weapons are a big advantage, and Totemist hands them out like candy starting at level 2. Plus there are several that improve natural attacks or skill the Melee man is likely to use. Imagine a bonus to hide and move silently that also gives you a claw attack that deals acid damage (the least likely to be resisted of the standard 4), well all of that is part of just one meld. and you gain full access to that awesome with only 2 levels of Totemist, imagine what this class can do for a full progression, yeah it's that good.

Bottom line: If you have a decent CON and you don't know what your passive side is, is should be an incarnum class. The same can be said for CHA and binder, but I will leave some one else to back that claim up, since my knowledge of the class is rather spotty.

Cadian 9th
2010-07-14, 08:41 PM
Found another build that I thought could be interesting: Favored Soul//Sorcerer/Geomancer. Take the Education feat from Eberron, which gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills for all classes.

The result: completely spontaneous Charisma-based casting for sorcerer and cleric spells at Caster Level equal to total level, at the cost of looking like a mutant.

That is a very nice feat. I can see it doing even nicer with one level of Cloistered Cleric to get knowledge devotion - and turn undead. Nothing like some Divine metamagic to boost some fun spells. Can't go wrong.


It's AWFULLY hard to go wrong with an Evolved Ghost/Master of the Unseen Hand.

Ghost LA 5 and Evolvedx15 on one side, then a slew of Charisma abuse classes on the other. I've seen builds with saves in the 70s, AC in the 100s, the ability to Dungeoncrash and Constrict with a telekenesis full attack, Violent Thrust for 500 damage, and a slew of other horrible, horrible attacks and defenses for every situation.

And the damn thing can fight all day long without ever running out of resources.

Ah yeah, I did that once. Half Celestial 4/Swordsage 4/Paladin 4/Battle Dancer 1/Saint 2//Monk 1/Simple druid 1/Afflicted Were leopord 5/Champion of Correlon Lartham 2/Enternal Blade 6. With some creative juggling, and judicious use of feats, I come up with 4x dex to damage+wis most of the time, Cha to HP, Int to AC, wis to AC 3 times, Natural armour, Dex 38 or something, I was getting ridiculous attack and damage (coupled with elven thinblade (counts as shortsword, for shadow blade) doing 15+ crit with d6+2 str damage.) and AC up to 90 or something.

Str pft, Dex 40, Con 10, Int 30, Wis 30, Cha 40.

AC = 95 (+15 Cha (BD), +10 Wis (Monk), +10 Wis (Simple Druid), +10 Wis (Saint), +10 Int (Enternal Blade), +5 Natural, +5 Bracers, +5 ring, +15 dex) Burn turn attempts to get Cha as shield bonus, TWF with Combat expertise and TWF Deffence for +10 AC again, so on a good day AC 110+

Attack = +31 (+10 int, +15 dex, +15 base, +1 magic, -10 Combat expert) Smite +46 Dealing d8+81 (+15 dex, +10 int, +10 Wis, +15 Dex, +15 dex, +15 dex) damage critical 15+ for d6+2 strength damage.


I can't say enough about having a totemist or incarnate passive side, especially for those with melee in mind. Since CON is a secondary stat for almost every melee build it should not be an issue, and the wisdom req for incarnate presents it as an attractive side bonus for Sword Sage. The totemist is more versatile yet, as it requires only CON and has no alignment restrictions.

Incarnate makes a good skillmonkey, since they can change what they are good at everyday, and there are several martially significant soulmelds in that book. But the real hero is Totemist. Natural weapons are a big advantage, and Totemist hands them out like candy starting at level 2. Plus there are several that improve natural attacks or skill the Melee man is likely to use. Imagine a bonus to hide and move silently that also gives you a claw attack that deals acid damage (the least likely to be resisted of the standard 4), well all of that is part of just one meld. and you gain full access to that awesome with only 2 levels of Totemist, imagine what this class can do for a full progression, yeah it's that good.

Bottom line: If you have a decent CON and you don't know what your passive side is, is should be an incarnum class. The same can be said for CHA and binder, but I will leave some one else to back that claim up, since my knowledge of the class is rather spotty.

Agreed! Adding to OP?

dante

Cadian 9th
2010-07-28, 02:42 AM
Updated OP, anyone got any input they'd like to add, I would love that. :smallsmile:

Dante