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Tinydwarfman
2010-06-28, 01:31 PM
Are there any? Or ways to stop any other spell that can see through a polymorph?

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 01:39 PM
Yes: the Invisible Spell feat from Cityscape.


Those with detect magic, see invisibility or true seeing spells active at the time of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell.

Meaning if you turn a solid fog invisible, the True Seeing player will see... solid fog. And nothing else.

Invisible Polymorph is a bit more challenging. You will fool everyone with True Seeing, but nobody without it. (Though the latter might not realize you've turned into a War Troll or whatever and underestimate you.)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 01:42 PM
Yes: the Invisible Spell feat from Cityscape.



Meaning if you turn a solid fog invisible, the True Seeing player will see... solid fog. And nothing else.

Invisible Polymorph is a bit more challenging. You will fool everyone with True Seeing, but nobody without it. (Though the latter might not realize you've turned into a War Troll or whatever and underestimate you.)

Invisible Polymorph :o
Brb my hexblade had an evilgasm.

Teron
2010-06-28, 01:43 PM
A bit obscure, and it may not help in your case, but Dragon 337, in the article on the Lords of Dust, has a spell that makes illusion/polymorph-based disguises fool true seeing. There's a catch, though, in that you have to keep the same disguise up for six hours before it kicks in.

balistafreak
2010-06-28, 01:48 PM
Invisible Polymorph :o
Brb my hexblade had an evilgasm.

Try Invisible Summon Nature's Ally/Monster X. :smallbiggrin:

Choco
2010-06-28, 01:49 PM
Invisible Polymorph is a bit more challenging. You will fool everyone with True Seeing, but nobody without it.

That is where a quickened duplicate of the same spell, but not invisible, comes into play :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2010-06-28, 01:50 PM
I like dispel magic and blindness/deafness, myself.

Keld Denar
2010-06-28, 01:51 PM
Stand more than 120' away and nuke em from orbit?

Ok, maybe not the best idea, but it does work! Unlike See Invis (which works as far as normal sight), True Seeing only work for a finite range.

Also, above, you'd want Invisible Fog Cloud. Invisible Solid Fog would really screw you over. Fog Cloud doesn't inhibit motion.

Unless of course you are Invisible Solid Fogging your enemy, in which case you are already close enough for them to TS through your polymorph.

EDIT:

I like dispel magic and blindness/deafness, myself.

Except that the TS that most outsiders have can be re-upped as a free action. You just pretty much wasted your action that that point to buy 1 round (or less) without them having TS. Plus, chances are, if you are dispelling them, they've already TSed through your disguise or whatever. Against casters though, its more effect, especially since you just caused them to lose 150g worth of costly material components.

Blindness as a spell sucks. Targetting fort saves is icky.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 01:53 PM
That is where a quickened duplicate of the same spell, but not invisible, comes into play :smalltongue:

Wouldn't the second override the first/not take effect?

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-28, 01:57 PM
I should Clarify, my character is a tibbit, and I'd rather people not know that I am not just a housecat.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-28, 01:59 PM
As a DM, I'd rule that the housecat and the halfling forms are both your "natural form" (since the shape changing is a natural ability), and as such true seeing wouldn't apply.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-28, 02:01 PM
I think the conjuration effect of the fog and the polymorph effect of polymorph count as effects as far as inv spell is conserned. I would need to look at the raw, but people would see you turn into a troll, they just wouldn't see any magic effects that follow it. The fog may or may not be seen, it would depend on the reading of the rules.

Personaly I would DM that any effect that changes a player, ie hp damage or polymorph, are not inv, just the magic that caused it. I would also say that most conj spells are likely not to work. The magic that created the fog cloud is inv, but not the cloud itself. I would look to see if the spell has SR or not. If it doesn't have SR allowed, then the effect is likely magicly caused, but not magic itself.

Nothing else matched the level adjustment for the metamagic.

Boci
2010-06-28, 02:04 PM
Nothing else matched the level adjustment for the metamagic.

Since its not a -1 metamagic, your version of it being useless in any situation I can think of it doesn't match either.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-28, 02:07 PM
As a DM, I'd rule that the housecat and the halfling forms are both your "natural form" (since the shape changing is a natural ability), and as such true seeing wouldn't apply.

unfortunately the entry explicitly says:

Any spell that reveals the true nature of a creature
under the effects of polymorph shows the truth behind
a tibbit's cat guise. Spells that reveal magical auras
but do not penetrate a polymorph spell reveal nothing
special about a tibbit in cat form.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-28, 02:08 PM
unfortunately the entry explicitly says:

Yeah, that's copypasta from the Alter Self text. It's kind of silly.

Teron
2010-06-28, 02:09 PM
Ah, then if you're going to stay in cat form 24/7 or close to it, the spell I mentioned (cloak of Khyber) actually would work.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 02:09 PM
Well, changelings are the same.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-28, 02:15 PM
Ah, then if you're going to stay in cat form 24/7 or close to it, the spell I mentioned (cloak of Khyber) actually would work.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

Choco
2010-06-28, 02:17 PM
Wouldn't the second override the first/not take effect?

Ah crap, you are right, ignore that...

It's much more fun just messing with the guys with true seeing anyway. What better way to make everyone think the person with true seeing is crazy and thus cannot be trusted than by turning some halfling into a dragon that only he can see :smalltongue:

Toliudar
2010-06-28, 02:18 PM
Stealing from those better than me, I'll also point out that anything else that mucks up vision mucks up true seeing. Glitterdust or other blinding , Control Weather, and burrowing are all viable ways to avoid true seeing.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 02:20 PM
Smokestick.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-28, 03:05 PM
The feat Insidious Magic [which requires the shadow weave magic user feat]. Any regular weave user who tries to reveal the effects of one of your spells via divination has to make a caster level check to succeed.
.

In the houserule department.
I have done this for lycanthropes in my setting, When using true seeing, A natural lycanthrope appears in whatever form its currently in.

An afflicted Lycanthrope reveals the creatures true self. Someone who is resisting the curse and the beast within appears human when seeing through the spell.

On the other hand an afflicted who has permanently succumbed to the beast
ie: assumed the alignment of the transformed state. Appears as the beast because the animal has taken over.

In my setting the lycanthropes believe in "the spirit of the beast" in a natural born it lives in harmony with the persons own spirit and they are one and the same. When someone is afflicted the beast spirit fights with the host spirit for dominance and sooner or later the beast always wins.

Wonton
2010-06-28, 03:48 PM
Stealing from those better than me, I'll also point out that anything else that mucks up vision mucks up true seeing. Glitterdust or other blinding , Control Weather, and burrowing are all viable ways to avoid true seeing.

But... when you're blinded, aren't all enemies essentially invisible? And therefore True Seeing would still work? :smallconfused:

Keld Denar
2010-06-28, 03:49 PM
Emphasis on the "essentially". They aren't ACTUALLY invisible, just treated as such. So...no.

Beorn080
2010-06-28, 04:13 PM
Lead Barding.

Invisible Disguise self as a far plane horror.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-28, 04:28 PM
Also, above, you'd want Invisible Fog Cloud. Invisible Solid Fog would really screw you over. Fog Cloud doesn't inhibit motion.Actually, you want an Invisible Spell (Whiteout). Whiteout is from Frostburn, can follow a creature, and lasts hours/level. Things that can see Invisible... are effectively blind (unless they've got another spell from the same book active...). Things that can't are fine.

Depending on how exactly you read the spells, Nondetection and Mind Blank can potentially foil True Seeing - but that's a DM call, really.

Of course, if your really, really want to muck up the rules, you put an Invisible Spell (Shades(Wall of Stone)) in front of the guy with True Seeing. You have an Instantaneous Illusion that's partially real, and permits SR.

Mooch
2010-06-28, 05:06 PM
The template Vecna-blooded(MM5 pg 66-67) makes you immune to divination spells. It is +1CR and you gain a few nifty other abilities.

Doc Roc
2010-06-28, 05:12 PM
The feat Insidious Magic [which requires the shadow weave magic user feat]. Any regular weave user who tries to reveal the effects of one of your spells via divination has to make a caster level check to succeed.


This works. It's easy to get, and there's the superb Shadow Adept PrC that goes with it. I understand that this may not be the answer you want, but it's one of the best answers I can give you. TS needs only LoS, not LoE, so that's a problematic aspect of it. Some people argue that dust of disappearance trumps, but the issue is the wording of TS makes this uncertain.


The template Vecna-blooded(MM5 pg 66-67) makes you immune to divination spells. It is +1CR and you gain a few nifty other abilities.

Could definitely be argued to work, if your GM allows it. It's an amazing template.

There's a few other tricks, but those two are the most viable.

Hague
2010-06-28, 05:16 PM
Would Nondetection work on True Seeing? True Seeing is a divination, right?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 05:19 PM
Don't forget Invisible invisibility! Only the guy with true seeing can't see you. :smallwink:

JaronK
2010-06-28, 05:23 PM
Actually, this is one of few times where skills trump magic. True Seeing can't see through Disguise or Hide.

Eurus
2010-06-28, 05:23 PM
Actually, you want an Invisible Spell (Whiteout). Whiteout is from Frostburn, can follow a creature, and lasts hours/level. Things that can see Invisible... are effectively blind (unless they've got another spell from the same book active...). Things that can't are fine.

Hey, that's pretty neat. It's a 7th level Druid spell, though, which is a potential issue. Also, doesn't really help for going unnoticed, since people will probably get fairly suspicious about the sudden magical whiteout. Could be very effective in combat, though.

The Mentalist
2010-06-28, 05:40 PM
Mundane Hide Checks? Just to throw out an unexpected solution.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-28, 05:47 PM
Mundane Hide Checks? Just to throw out an unexpected solution.
The check to disguise a humanoid as a quadruped must be something fierce though.

The Mentalist
2010-06-28, 05:55 PM
I missed the Polymorph bit...

Um mundane Disguise checks... At epic DCs?

Hague
2010-06-28, 06:08 PM
What? Does no one know how to rule on this? Can Nondetection defeat true seeing


The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level.

If cast on a creature, nondetection wards the creature’s gear as well as the creature itself.


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

The text of nondetection says "such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells," True Seeing is a divination spell, and that list only gives examples, and is not a comprehensive list of all divinations. Granted that Nondetection is not an illusion, it doesn't prevent anyone from not seeing you, it simply prevents divinations from seeing you, and True Seeing is a divination.

But I can't honestly say for sure.

Heliomance
2010-06-28, 06:20 PM
Yes: the Invisible Spell feat from Cityscape.



Meaning if you turn a solid fog invisible, the True Seeing player will see... solid fog. And nothing else.

Invisible Polymorph is a bit more challenging. You will fool everyone with True Seeing, but nobody without it. (Though the latter might not realize you've turned into a War Troll or whatever and underestimate you.)

Wait - so someone with True Seeing would think you're a war troll polymorphed into a human?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 06:24 PM
Wait - so someone with True Seeing would think you're a war troll polymorphed into a human?

They'd step in range and see a troll.
Then out of range and see a human.
Then proceed with the most appropriate response: Whuh?

First thing that came to my mind was screwing with a mid-level group: Normal hallway. Invisible Silent Image of a prismatic wall. Caster hops around and detects magic. Then casts see invis or true seeing and sees a prismatic wall and says "huh, guys, not here"

Heliomance
2010-06-28, 06:28 PM
The check to disguise a humanoid as a quadruped must be something fierce though.

Nope. -2 for disguising yourself as a member of a different race. I've got a tiny fey character that (ab)uses this by going round permanently disguised as a Corollax.

amuletts
2010-06-28, 06:38 PM
False Seeing will cancel True Seeing (being it's reverse).

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 06:38 PM
Nope. -2 for disguising yourself as a member of a different race. I've got a tiny fey character that (ab)uses this by going round permanently disguised as a Corollax.

I think disguising your humanoid form so that it looks like a normal housecat is a little bit more demanding than dressing like "a different race."

Jack_Simth
2010-06-28, 06:59 PM
Hey, that's pretty neat. It's a 7th level Druid spell, though, which is a potential issue. Also, doesn't really help for going unnoticed, since people will probably get fairly suspicious about the sudden magical whiteout. Could be very effective in combat, though.

That's why you use Invisible Spell. It's invisible to those without See Invisibility / True Seeing / Similar effects. As all it does is block line of sight, making it invisible means everyone can see through it... unless they're using magic to let them see invisible things.

What? Does no one know how to rule on this? Can Nondetection defeat true seeing

The text of nondetection says "such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells," True Seeing is a divination spell, and that list only gives examples, and is not a comprehensive list of all divinations. Granted that Nondetection is not an illusion, it doesn't prevent anyone from not seeing you, it simply prevents divinations from seeing you, and True Seeing is a divination.

But I can't honestly say for sure.
It's unclear - which means it's DM dependent. Some will say "Such as" and read that as "similar divination spells", not letting it affect True Seeing (as True Seeing isn't sufficiently similar to the spells on the list). Others will, as it's a divination spell.

I let Nondetection (but not Mind Blank) function against See Invisibility / True Seeing / similar. Why? Because then it's a roll of the die to see who comes out on top. Which is much more D&D-ish than this escalating game of absolutes.

Heliomance
2010-06-28, 07:07 PM
I think disguising your humanoid form so that it looks like a normal housecat is a little bit more demanding than dressing like "a different race."

Not by the rules it doesn't. Course, you can't change size with a mundane disguise check, not without breaking out the epic skill usage rules.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 07:48 PM
Thought: Guy is a bounty for a group of casters in a city of commoners.
Cast Invisible Greater Invisibility.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-28, 08:05 PM
What? Does no one know how to rule on this? Can Nondetection defeat true seeing

The text of nondetection says "such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells," True Seeing is a divination spell, and that list only gives examples, and is not a comprehensive list of all divinations. Granted that Nondetection is not an illusion, it doesn't prevent anyone from not seeing you, it simply prevents divinations from seeing you, and True Seeing is a divination.

But I can't honestly say for sure.

You've got it about right it really can go either way.
Personally I'd go with similar line of spells, clairvoyance, locate objects and detect spells are all really about detecting someone, be it finding you via a scrying effect, or detecting your aura be that magic or alignment or etc.

True Seeing doesn't really detect you, it simply sidesteps all the magic you used to obscure your presence.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:23 PM
Not by the rules it doesn't. Course, you can't change size with a mundane disguise check, not without breaking out the epic skill usage rules.

Actually, by the rules, you can't use the Disguise skill to look like a completely different type of creature, since that's not a listed usage of the skill. I'm not necessarily talking about Creature Types, here, just basic anatomy. You can't possibly disguise a halfling as a housecat with a nonmagical disguise kit, it simply won't work.

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:24 PM
In a way doesn't it function as a "Detect Reality" spell?

Ernir
2010-06-28, 08:25 PM
Invisible Symbol of Fear! \o/

EDIT: More helpfully... take the Vecna-blooded template (MM5). You are now immune to Divination magic.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 08:26 PM
In a way doesn't it function as a "Detect Reality" spell?

More or less. Anything that bypass your senses also bypasses true seeing, like False Sensory Input (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/falseSensoryInput.htm).

Icewraith
2010-06-28, 08:35 PM
This is more of a DM trick, but be anything with a fort-save gaze attack and get invisibility/greater invisibility. Once a caster fires off a see invis/true seeing, he immediately gets hit with your gaze attack.

The party will know something's up when one of them takes a load of damage, the wizard casts see invis and gets turned into stone...

Salbazier
2010-06-28, 08:37 PM
There's a spell in one of the Eberron books' sidebar that specifically prevent true seeing from working. I forgot what book. Maybe its Secret of xendriks or Five nations. The spell is commonly used by undercover rakshasas/other fiends

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-28, 10:45 PM
Blindness is probably the most complete counter for true seeing. As nondetection is debatable, shadow weave is rather world specific.

Another method is effective misdirection, send in a patsy who's intended to be discovered then sneak up while the TSers attention if focused on something.

Harperfan7
2010-06-29, 05:24 AM
It's pretty clear to me that nondetection blocks true seeing (if the true see-er fails his CL check).

Killer Angel
2010-06-29, 05:48 AM
Dust of disappearance (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dust_of_Disappearance) should work against true seeing. Probably.



What? Does no one know how to rule on this? Can Nondetection defeat true seeing

The text of nondetection says "such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells," True Seeing is a divination spell, and that list only gives examples, and is not a comprehensive list of all divinations. Granted that Nondetection is not an illusion, it doesn't prevent anyone from not seeing you, it simply prevents divinations from seeing you, and True Seeing is a divination.

But I can't honestly say for sure.


It's pretty clear to me that nondetection blocks true seeing (if the true see-er fails his CL check).

In this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116367&highlight=true) (the same subject as the current thread), there was an interesting discussion regarding Mind Blank / Non detection Vs True seeing.

Paul H
2010-06-29, 08:43 AM
Hi

Leomund's Tiny Hut.

Sure - a mono coloured sphere sticks out, but no-one can see into it from outside, and everyone inside can see out. It's my favourite Evocation spell for Warmages. (Advanced Learning).

Of course, it does have other problems - fireball magnet is one....

Thanks
Paul H

Closak
2010-06-29, 08:51 AM
Hide something that is dangerous to look at behind an illusion.

Then when one of the players uses True Seeing to see through the illusion he or she ends up looking at said dangerous object, make a save or die horribly.

This proves that sometimes, True Seeing is simply not a good idea to use.

Eurus
2010-06-29, 09:12 AM
That's why you use Invisible Spell. It's invisible to those without See Invisibility / True Seeing / Similar effects. As all it does is block line of sight, making it invisible means everyone can see through it... unless they're using magic to let them see invisible things.

Right, but what I'm saying is, if you're trying to go undercover or something, any mage who looks at you with True Seeing is going to be almost as suspicious about the strange invisible sight-obscuring cloud of whiteness following you as they would be about seeing that you're magically disguised.