Is this class fair? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-28, 01:45 PM

Edit: I'm putting the Stuffy Doll class information in the front of the thread to make things easier.

Stuffy Doll

A warrior who has forsaken the ways of chivalrous combat and dipped into forbidden magic. Gods gave him the gift of immortality but has gradually lost his humanity. He was also gifted with the ability to share the pain he feels with others and unlike most people, he finds pain to be a pleasurable experience. He charges headlong into battle just to see the suffering he causes. Torture is one of its hobbies.

Abilities: Constitution is vital because the Stuffy Doll needs all of the health he or she can get to endure injuries. Charisma can be used as diplomatic help and can help in interrogation, Intelligence can help with skills, and Wisdom can help with will saves. Strength and Dexterity are not nearly as necessary for the Stuffy Doll.

Alignment: Any nongood.

Hit Die: d20.

Class Skills

The Stuffy Doll's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Stuffy Doll
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Ritual to the God of Immortality, Feedback, Inflict Pain, Battle Hungry, Worshiper of Pain, Inability to Fight, Arcane/Psionic Weakness

2nd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|Provoke

3rd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|Share Poison

4th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|Mutilate

5th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|Chained Knife

6th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|Improved Provoke

7th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|Share Condition

8th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

9th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

10th|
+0|
+7|
+0|
+7|Favor in Battle
[/table]

Ritual to the God of Immortality: 1 Standard or Move Action. The ritual deals one damage to user (this damage bypasses any form of damage resistance in order to utilize the user's blood). The Ritual creates a symbol (20 ft. radius) of user's blood. The symbol lasts for the number of rounds equal to the levels in Stuffy Doll of the user. After completion, it allows the user to deal feedback damage to a marked unit when Stuffy Doll is inside the radius of the symbol.

Feedback: Feedback deals damage equal to (1/2 * damage taken) + 1/10 * current level) to target marked creature. For example, if a 10th level Stuffy Doll is dealt 20 damage while inside his or her Ritual circle, the Stuffy Doll can choose to deal (1/2 * 20) + 1/10 * 10 damage (which is 10 + 1, 11) to target marked creature.

Inflict Pain: With the Ritual Knife, the Stuffy Doll may deal up to 5 times his or her current levels damage to him or herself.

Battle Hungry: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from the use ranged weapons.

Worshiper of Pain: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from wearing armor.

Inability to Fight: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from using weapons other than the Ritual Knife.

Arcane/Psionic Weakness: A Stuffy Doll may never advance in spell casting or psionic powers again. Their bodies are not capable of harnessing the massive energy and power required to do so.

Provoke: Provokes a creature to attack you (DC to overcome is DC 10 + 1/2 Character level + Con. modifier). This marks the creature and lasts 1 turn.

Share Poison: If you are poisoned, your chosen marked target is poisoned as well (this is temporary, for example if you are poisoned and then switch targets, then that target will become poisoned but
previous marked target will no longer be poisoned).

Mutilate: The Stuffy Doll cuts off a limb, dealing as much damage as the Stuffy Doll chooses, to itself.

Chained Knife: Attaches a chain to your knife allowing the Stuffy Doll to throw it 30 ft.

Improved Provoke: Full-round action. The save for Improved Provoke is DC 10 + Character Level + Con Modifier.

Share Condition: Same as Share Poison, but more far-reaching. Share Condition allows the Stuffy Doll to use his or her Mutilate ability to make a target marked creature's limb useless. This lasts for 1/2X rounds where X is how much damage the Stuffy Doll chooses to take. For example, if the Stuffy Doll marks a creature holding a weapon in its right hand, the Stuffy Doll could cut off his right arm for 20 damage. The target marked creature then loses the use of its right arm for 10 rounds and also drops the weapon it was wielding in its right hand. Death cannot be a shared condition.

Favor in Battle: The God of Immortality favors his most faithful servants. Thus, a 10th level or higher Stuffy Doll no longer needs a Ritual circle to deal feedback damage to his or her marked creatures.

Ritual Knife: The ritual knife can always deals 1 damage, even through damage reduction, but cannot be buffed, poisoned, or modified. This does not automatically negate grapples or anything of that variety.

Original Post:
Ok, so I'm DM'ing my first campaign that I created myself. One of the players first played a sorcerer and then decided, "These classes are boring, so can I make my own class?" And so I let him make his own class. Can you tell me if this class seems fair? Here are his class notes:

Stuffy Doll (like the Magic card)
Hit Dice: D20
Weapon Proficiency: Simple and a ritual knife(No Ranged, Explained later)
Armor Proficiency: NONE
The Attack Bonus is 0
The Fortitude saves and Will saves are the same as a Monk but he has no reflex modifiers (If he likes the pain, why bother dodging it?)

Skills Learned:
Level 1: Feedback Level 1, Inflict Pain, Battle Hungry, Damage Reduction or Regen (need help balancing this; prefer regen cause of flavor but it is a lot harder to balance)
Worshiper of Pain
Level 2: Provoke
Level 3: Share Poison
Level 5: Feedback Level 2
Level 8: Share Condition
Level 10: Feedback Level 3
Level 15: Feedback Level 4
Level 20: Feedback Level 5

Feedback Level 1: Deal .5x damage you take to unit you have a shred of
Feedback level 2: Deal 1x
Feedback Level 3: Deal 1.5x
Feedback Level 4: Deal 2x
Feedback Level 5:Deal 2.5x

Worshiper of Pain: Can never wear armor

Inflict Pain: Deals up to 5x level to yourself

Battle Hungry: Not allowed to use ranged weapons

Provoke: Make unit attack you (DC to overcome is DC10 + 1/2 Character level + Con modifier), marks unit, makes them try to attack melee

Share Poison: If you are poisoned, unit of shred is poisoned as well (this is temporary, for example if you are poisoned and then switch units, then that unit will become poisoned but previous marked unit will now be status free)

Share Condition: Same as Share Poison but far more far reaching (Cannot be Death)

Ritual Knife: Special Attributes: Always deals 1 damage even through damage reduction but cannot be buffed, poisoned, or some other modifiers.
I made this so I am not just killing people by just slashing them to death which I really did not want to happen but happened anyways because I had to have high strength to hit.

The other ways to go:
Ritual to the God of Immortality: 1 standard or Move Action, Deals one damage to user (ignore Damage reductions, its for the blood): Creates a 20 foot symbol of user's blood that lasts for user's level of turns, that deals feedback to anyone who attacks you while you are in the circle (If they hit). (Feedback and share ______ only works in that circle. I was also thinking of making it so he can only get any of his bonuses in his circle). This makes the most sense flavor wise.

Create Link: 1 standard or Move Action: You create the link using your constitution and some other modifiers against their will save. Someone think of something that would make sense. I prefer the other ideas more.

These may seem good because they create links rather easily but now this is the only way I can do any damage (due to the attack bonus of 0)

This is also more of the way I envisioned it and actually makes him more of his own class as opposed to just a modified barbarian.

I think the d20 HD makes it overpowered, but do you guys have any other suggestions? Thanks!

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-28, 01:51 PM

Ummm...what?

I didn't understand half of that, and the half I did understand was still pretty convoluted. Can your friend word things better, and actually do a full class writeup like the PHB contains, complete with the table? This is all but incomprehensible.

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-28, 01:59 PM

Yeah, I'll get him to organize it.

jiriku

2010-06-28, 02:02 PM

Advice you are seeking: Yes, the d20 hit die makes it overpowered. It's also a badly designed class, with no skills or skill points, no base attack bonus, a nonstandard Reflex progression, no means of dealing with opponents at range, a bunch of dead levels that grant no abilities, and...well...it will need substantial revision to get where it needs to be.

Advice you weren't seeking but maybe could use anyway: Homebrewing base classes for D&D 3.5 is difficult and time-consuming, and your friend doesn't seem to know D&D well enough to produce effective results. I'd recommend you push him towards different published classes, rather than letting him build his own.

For example, psionic characters have several powers that allow you to return damage you receive. The psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)is a really good class, and has powers such as empathic feedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicFeedback.htm), hostile empathic transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) which allow the character to return damage that he takes back to his enemies.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-28, 02:07 PM

*Stuff*

Jiriku is spot on here. I didn't bother to do a full review because the formatting was giving me a headache and many abilities were poorly defined, but it seems your friend knows little or nothing about homebrew design and class balance. I'd recommend sticking with published classes a bit longer (perhaps altering them slightly), or having him look at a lot of the homebrew and homebrew advice threads on this very forum, so he can get a better understanding of how to go about homebrewing effectively.

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 05:02 PM

Thirded. There's a tonne of threads here that can be utilised better than that creation. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find something close to what you're after. Hell Djinn and Jir have both published a few classes here on the homebrew thread. Also, D20 is way way overpowered, especially since you don't really justify the large number, and despite the fact that all his abilities "do damage to self" it's not really enough damage to suffice it as a role play element. Check out the Blood Viper in my signature. Deals a fair amount of damage to himself to fuel his abilities, especially so with "Blood Fuelled Powers", but he only has a D12. Even that was testing the limits of some homebrewers.

Corporate M

2010-06-28, 06:18 PM

As said here, no skills/skillpoints seems... odd... Its not even good for a prestige class because HD d20 isn't realistic. Not because having alot of HP isn't legitamate, but whats to stop someone from dipping in the class?

I know sometimes you just have to use common sense and it's the DM's job to say no sometimes when it's clear they're just trying to powergame. I don't think thats what your friend's doing. Noones going to go through the trouble of making their own stuff and risking a no just to powergame. But I imagine other players may dip in it to "Try it out" too and endup with more HP then they should have. It'd be a rare example of a wizard or other fullcaster thinking the spare levels are worth the tradeoff.

I see where your friend wants to go with this class. But he doesn't seem to have a grasp of the rules enough to stack those abilities and properly distribute them. The only thing worse then an overpowered class that screams newbie is an underpowered class that screams newbie. But I think it's great your friend wants to get creative. You should encourage that. But tell him to take babysteps. Maybe a homebrew feat or a homebrew class variant before he goes into full fledge class territory. I've been playing this game for ten years and even my classes could use some work.

imp_fireball

2010-06-28, 06:31 PM

Homebrewing base classes for D&D 3.5 is difficult and time-consuming

It took me about 3 hours to sketch out the draft of the battlecruiser PRC. Not that time consuming. Not like designing a video game. :P

arguskos

2010-06-28, 06:38 PM

I'll come down on the side of "nonstandard is not bad and just because someone's initial effort is poor doesn't mean we should swat them in the face with a newspaper and say 'No!' :smalltongue:" which is sorta how lots of posts in this thread read. I know they're not meant as such, but really guys, I expected more from Djinn and jirku than "stop brewing, you're bad at it" even in spirit. :smalltongue:

Now, that said, I will agree with the above posters that this is badly executed. HOWEVER, the concept of a class that deals themselves pain to damage others is good. A d20 HD, which highly unusual, is not actually a bad thing in all cases (if you are dealing damage to someone through damaging yourself, you need the HP buffer). Oh, and concerning the concept of dipping for a d20 HD, uh, so? It's like dipping for a d12, but up to 8 more hp? HP is NOT exactly game-breaking, so why the big damn deal? Only convention says we shouldn't do it, and really, that's a TERRIBLE reason to restrict ourselves. This is brew, custom work, a d20 is a fine thing to use for HD if the class warrants it mechanically and flavorfully.

The no BAB thing actually has precedent (War Hulk, Survivor), and I THINK there's a PrC out there that gets 0+Int skills each level (don't quote me on that though, might be 3rd party).

What this needs is a heavy edit and rethink. Compare it to existing classes (such as the Knight from PHB2 and the Blood Magus from Complete Arcane for starters) for both inspiration and balance aid. Then, come back with new ideas and a fresh take, and we'll try and sort this out.

Also, pleasepleasePLEASE learn the board table code. It looks daunting, I know, but it's not that bad. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) thread is good for helping you learn the code.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-28, 06:41 PM

It took me about 3 hours to sketch out the draft of the battlecruiser PRC. Not that time consuming. Not like designing a video game. :P

But designing a PrC isn't the equilavent of designing a video game. It's more like modeling a character, which takes much less time. That said, some PrCs are more complex than others. I have PrCs that have taken me hours and hours to get exactly right, and others that just came together. So yes, some ARE really time consuming. Others not so much.

...but really guys, I expected more from Djinn and jirku than "stop brewing, you're bad at it" even in spirit. :smalltongue:

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up there a second, boss. I never said anything close to that. I suggested becoming a little more familiar with the mechanics that he'd be working with (using an existing class for a bit, as I think the friend is fairly new to the game). I never recommended "stop brewing, you're bad at it." I never would recommend that. It's just that sometimes you need to look at the framework of a situation before trying to build the solution. Going in blind isn't a good idea.

arguskos

2010-06-28, 06:48 PM

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up there a second, boss. I never said anything close to that. I suggested becoming a little more familiar with the mechanics that he'd be working with (using an existing class for a bit, as I think the friend is fairly new to the game). I never recommended "stop brewing, you're bad at it." I never would recommend that. It's just that sometimes you need to look at the framework of a situation before trying to build the solution. Going in blind isn't a good idea.
You'll note I was mildly tongue-in-cheek there, and was responding to more than just you. To be fair, my humor is sometimes a bit rough around the edges and hard to follow, so, for the record, no insult intended. :smallwink:

However, in my statement's defense, you did bash the dude's friend pretty bad (not entirely without reason, but still). To quote you, "your friend knows little or nothing about homebrew design and class balance". That, while it might be true, was hardly diplomatic or even very nice and can easily be misread as "you are bad at homebrewing" with an implied "noob" in there.

Now, I'm all for improvement (and frankly, I could use a lot of it myself, as could we all), but sometimes, well-intentioned statements are harsher than they need to be. That's all I was saying.

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 07:04 PM

It took me about 3 hours to sketch out the draft of the battlecruiser PRC. Not that time consuming. Not like designing a video game. :P

And his Battecruiser class is FRIGGIN sweet.

Edit: I also hope I was not one of the ones that did "noob bashing" just now. I'm a noob myself so I can't exactly talk. lol.

I say keep it up, I just think his friend needs to come on here to the homebrew forum, check out some of the more perfectly executed classes and base his work off that.

Also, his class is fine if it's not a homebrew class per se. But balance it against everything else in homebrew/3.5 and D20 is getting a little excessive for hit dice, no? Also, HD can be a little damaging to the game, especially if you dip heavily into HD classes and then into some other class that fuels their defensive abilities beyond reason thus creating some indestructible killing machine that ISN'T a mage. :smalleek:

Flickerdart

2010-06-28, 07:06 PM

And his Battecruiser class is FRIGGIN sweet.
Is it...operational? :smallbiggrin:

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 07:08 PM

Is it...operational? :smallbiggrin:

Battlecruiser...operational. *heavy accent here*

Dear god I'm going to install starcraft right now. lol.

arguskos

2010-06-28, 07:37 PM

Also, his class is fine if it's not a homebrew class per se. But balance it against everything else in homebrew/3.5 and D20 is getting a little excessive for hit dice, no? Also, HD can be a little damaging to the game, especially if you dip heavily into HD classes and then into some other class that fuels their defensive abilities beyond reason thus creating some indestructible killing machine that ISN'T a mage. :smalleek:
When was the last time you saw a super heavily defensive character do much, other than be defensive? Defense in 3.5 tends to lose pretty heavily to offense, and so really isn't that huge a deal if it's something minor like more HP. You can give a character Draconic Toughness (+17 HP, Tome and Blood, was never reprinted and thus is legal) as a class feature every 3-4 levels and it STILL won't be an issue, I guarantee it.

A d20 HD is irregular, this is true. It is highly variable, this is true. It is not unbalancing in any way (other than perhaps if you have the power to directly turn HP into Power Points or +atk or something, in which case, there's other issues at hand, namely those abilities).

Chrystrom

2010-06-28, 07:52 PM

You can give a character Draconic Toughness (+17 HP, Tome and Blood, was never reprinted and thus is legal)

Actually Draconic Toughness was reprinted in Races of the Dragon

†

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 07:58 PM

When was the last time you saw a super heavily defensive character do much, other than be defensive? Defense in 3.5 tends to lose pretty heavily to offense, and so really isn't that huge a deal if it's something minor like more HP. You can give a character Draconic Toughness (+17 HP, Tome and Blood, was never reprinted and thus is legal) as a class feature every 3-4 levels and it STILL won't be an issue, I guarantee it.

A d20 HD is irregular, this is true. It is highly variable, this is true. It is not unbalancing in any way (other than perhaps if you have the power to directly turn HP into Power Points or +atk or something, in which case, there's other issues at hand, namely those abilities).

Granted. But as we're working off a standard (range between d4 and d12) as a max min, the class just wouldn't seem to mesh too well with the rest. Also, what if this class gave themselves Draconic Toughness (being illegal or legal-irrelevant) and added even more on top. It would make the class nigh invincible with a buttload of hit points.

Granted that defenders usually defend, but take the Battecruiser homebrew for example. Mix that, with this insanely large amount of hit points, and you've got a goliath that just won't go down.

Which.....is awesome. So I hereby resign from this conversation. :smallcool:

arguskos

2010-06-28, 08:03 PM

Actually Draconic Toughness was reprinted in Races of the Dragon

†
Was it? Eh, do Giant's Toughness then (the +11 hp one). You get the idea.

zenanarchist, the idea of brew IMO is to push the envelope, to break the limits, to do something wild and crazy and new and fresh. Not everything's gonna be a winner, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Also, HP=/=the best defense out there. Hell, it's only kinda an alright one. It's the last resort defense. Saves, AC, miss chance, these all matter WAY more than HP ever has.

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 08:23 PM

Was it? Eh, do Giant's Toughness then (the +11 hp one). You get the idea.

zenanarchist, the idea of brew IMO is to push the envelope, to break the limits, to do something wild and crazy and new and fresh. Not everything's gonna be a winner, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Also, HP=/=the best defense out there. Hell, it's only kinda an alright one. It's the last resort defense. Saves, AC, miss chance, these all matter WAY more than HP ever has.

I've already conceded awesome. lol. Especially mixed with the Battlecruiser. Hey, I'm as much a fan of tanks as the next wizard hating juju disliking guy. I'm all for it. I'll credit him for it. Just put it into legible tables, clarify abilities, standardise actions, state cost, type and I'll review it.

I encourage other noobs to join me in the ranks of the noob creators. lol.

arguskos

2010-06-28, 08:31 PM

Fair enough. I think everyone is in agreement that some editing and peer review and reworking is in order. Chopchop I say! :smallcool: 10 seconds, Temotei. XD

PersonMan

2010-06-28, 08:42 PM

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 09:01 PM

You don't like forum formatting? Here. (http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/) I use it all the time for classes, it makes creating them much faster.

As for the class...eh, I have nothing to say that wasn't already said.

Two things. First, I've been looking for that link FOREVER.

Secondly, bring back your old avatar. I've seen you on the boards and I miss cheese head.

arguskos

2010-06-28, 09:12 PM

Two things. First, I've been looking for that link FOREVER.

Secondly, bring back your old avatar. I've seen you on the boards and I miss cheese head.
Different people. Person_Man still has the cheese head, since he never got rid of it. PersonMan and Person_Man are different folks. :smalltongue:

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 09:13 PM

Different people. Person_Man still has the cheese head, since he never got rid of it. PersonMan and Person_Man are different folks. :smalltongue:

:smalleek: An impostor you say?

:smallmad: Not ok my friend, not ok.

:smallwink:

Cidolfas

2010-06-28, 09:34 PM

I would say that given that this class's only method of dealing damage to someone else is to deal damage to itself, the d20 HD won't even make that much of a difference. I disagree with the idea that he's a goliath that won't go down; one failed save on a death spell and he is dead as a doornail despite all his hit points. He has no BAB, so the ritual knife is practically useless even if it does penetrate damage reduction as long as he is trying to attack someone else since he won't hit anything with a good AC. Assuming he uses inflict pain to give himself 100 damage at level 20, the best he can do is deal 250 damage. Now that ain't bad damage-wise, but considering he just dealt 100 damage to himself and his opponent hasn't necessarily even gone yet, it may not be worth the trade-off.

Given all the limitations, I would call this a Tier 4 class which, to answer your original question, makes it more or less fair as far as not breaking the game goes. I would personally caution him from using it though (that's if you're a nice DM, if you're cruel and cynical you just let him play it and then laugh hysterically when he dies), since the risk outweighs the reward IMO.

zenanarchist

2010-06-28, 09:37 PM

sim2er

2010-06-28, 11:39 PM

i don't know about the stuffy doll class (that is the name, isn't it?), but i was wondering the same thing about a class i made. i wasn't aware of any similar class so i made this one:

Gladiator Prestige class:
Prerequisites:
Feats: endurance, Lightning reflexes, unarmed strike
Skills: Perform (weapons drill) 8 ranks, spot 8 ranks
Special: must have been in a gladiatorial match with an opponent one level higher and won without being given a weapon.

{table]LVL|BAB|Fort.|Ref.|Will|Ability
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Trap sense +1, for the crowd, toughness
2|+2|+3|+3|+0|Improvise -3, Bonus feat
3|+3|+3|+3|+1|resilient
4|+4|+4|+4|+1|Teamwork
5|+5|+4|+4|+1|Improvise -2, avoidance
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Greater resilience
7|+7/+2|+5 |+5|+2|Trap sense +2
8|+8/+3|+6 |+6|+2|Improvise -1, Bonus feat
9|+9/+4|+6 |+6|+3|a spectacle
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Greater avoidance, supreme improvisation, To the death.[/table]

Proficiencies: no new.
Skills: as Barbarian. and perform is a class skill.

hit die: d10

Trap sense (ex): arenas are often trapped to make the challenges more "interesting" so you have gained an intuitive reflex to avoid them. +1 to reflex saves and AC versus traps.

Toughness: a bonus feat

For The Crowds (Ex): You have learned to make a performance out of combat, to please the crowds. If you voluntarily throw aside your weapons to meet an opponent with your bare hands, you strike fear into your enemies in the form of a -1 morale penalty to all attacks and damage rolls against you. If you make a successful intimidate check, the penalties are doubled. (you can also hinder yourself in other ways, this is just the most dramatic)

Improvise (Ex): you have learned that almost anything can be a deadly weapon in the right hands. Your penalty for improvising weapons is only -3, and becomes smaller as you gain levels.

You gain the benefit of any fighter bonus feat.

Resilient: you gain the diehard feat as a bonus feat

Teamwork: you understand the benefits of working together. You gain the benefits of the formation fighter feat, and learn other teamwork benefits more easily.

Avoidance: you have become better at avoiding the kinds of challenges thrown at you. You get the benefit of both evasion and uncanny dodge.

Greater resilience: you gain DR 1/-, and can make constitution checks to continue to fight [DC 10+damage taken beyond -10], doing so deals one point of damage from stress. (example: you were just struck for 20 damage, leaving you at -15 HP. Instead of dying, you can make a DC 15 CON check to act as it you were at 0 HP, dealing 1 damage and putting you at -16 HP)

A Spectacle (Ex): if you successfully make a perform (weapons drill) check [DC based on crowd size] the crowd will start to cheer for you, granting a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, and saves against fear and charm effects. This bonus is increased for each 10 pts you beat the DC. Lasts a number of rounds equal to 5+1/5 the DC. Usable a number of times per day equal to 1/2 class level.
{table]No crowd: DC 25 | Small crowd (1-10): DC 20 | Moderate crowd (11-100) DC 15 |
Large crowd (101-1,000)DC 10 | Huge crowd (1,001-10,000) DC 5 | amazing crowd (more than 10,000) DC 10[/table]

Greater avoidance: you get the improved versions of uncanny dodge and evasion.

Supreme Improvisation: you no longer take any penalty for using improvised weapons, armor, shields, or other combat gear.

To the death: (Ex): as long as the crowd cheers, you refuse to die (see spectacle ability), and your damage reduction increases to DR 2/--.
i believe perform (weapons drill) appears in complete warrior

zenanarchist

2010-06-29, 12:25 AM

i don't know about the stuffy doll class (that is the name, isn't it?), but i was wondering the same thing about a class i made. i wasn't aware of any similar class so i made this one:

Gladiator Prestige class:
Prerequisites:
Feats: endurance, Lightning reflexes, unarmed strike
Skills: Perform (weapons drill) 8 ranks, spot 8 ranks
Special: must have been in a gladiatorial match with an opponent one level higher and won without being given a weapon.

{table]LVL|BAB|Fort.|Ref.|Will|Ability
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Trap sense +1, for the crowd, toughness
2|+2|+3|+3|+0|Improvise -3, Bonus feat
3|+3|+3|+3|+1|resilient
4|+4|+4|+4|+1|Teamwork
5|+5|+4|+4|+1|Improvise -2, avoidance
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Greater resilience
7|+7/+2|+5 |+5|+2|Trap sense +2
8|+8/+3|+6 |+6|+2|Improvise -1, Bonus feat
9|+9/+4|+6 |+6|+3|a spectacle
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Greater avoidance, supreme improvisation, To the death.[/table]

Proficiencies: no new.
Skills: as Barbarian. and perform is a class skill.

Trap sense (ex): arenas are often trapped to make the challenges more "interesting" so you have gained an intuitive reflex to avoid them. +1 to reflex saves and AC versus traps.

Toughness: a bonus feat

For The Crowds (Ex): You have learned to make a performance out of combat, to please the crowds. If you voluntarily throw aside your weapons to meet an opponent with your bare hands, you strike fear into your enemies in the form of a -1 morale penalty to all attacks and damage rolls against you. If you make a successful intimidate check, the penalties are doubled. (you can also hinder yourself in other ways, this is just the most dramatic)

Improvise (Ex): you have learned that almost anything can be a deadly weapon in the right hands. Your penalty for improvising weapons is only -3, and becomes smaller as you gain levels.

You gain the benefit of any fighter bonus feat

Resilient: you gain the diehard feat as a bonus feat

Teamwork: you understand the benefits of working together. You gain the benefits of the formation fighter feat, and

Avoidance: you have become better at avoiding the kinds of challenges thrown at you. You may choose to get the benefit of either evasion or uncanny dodge.

Greater resilience: you gain DR 1/-, and can make constitution checks to continue to fight [DC 10+damage taken beyond -10], doing so deals one point of damage from stress. (example: you were just struck for 20 damage, leaving you at -15 HP. Instead of dying, you can make a DC 15 CON check to act as it you were at 0 HP, dealing 1 damage and putting you at -16 HP)

A Spectacle (Ex): if you successfully make a perform (weapons drill) check [DC based on crowd size] the crowd will start to cheer for you, granting a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, and saves against fear and charm effects. This bonus is increased for each 10 pts you beat the DC. Lasts a number of rounds equal to 5+1/5 the DC. Usable a number of times per day equal to 1/2 class level.
{table]No crowd: DC 25 | Small crowd (1-10): DC 20 | Moderate crowd (11-100) DC 15 |
Large crowd (101-1,000)DC 10 | Huge crowd (1,001-10,000) DC 5 | amazing crowd (more than 10,000) DC 10[/table]

Greater avoidance: choose to improve your evasion or uncanny dodge, or take the other ability.

Supreme Improvisation: you no longer take any penalty for using improvised weapons, armor, shields, or other combat gear.

To the death: (Ex): as long as the crowd cheers, you refuse to die (see spectacle ability), and your damage reduction increases to DR 2/--.
i believe perform (weapons drill) appears in complete warrior

Very -very- campaign specific that class, no? Also you forgot Hit die

Cidolfas

2010-06-29, 12:28 AM

See, granted right now he has no BAB, but he also didn't list class skills either.

So we can assume that BAB will be added, as well as class skills, as well as other abilities. So that, in effect, would make it broken. I think those opinions were coming from a future "too much" perspective as oppossed to a "right now" perspective.

Normally I would agree, but above there is no mention of class skills at all. There is, however, a specific part that stipulates that "The Attack Bonus is 0". Thus, I am prompted to assume that this class actually receives no BAB as part of its class features, which would fit with all the other restrictions that mitigate the combat effectiveness that may normally come with have loads of hit points.

zenanarchist

2010-06-29, 01:08 AM

Normally I would agree, but above there is no mention of class skills at all. There is, however, a specific part that stipulates that "The Attack Bonus is 0". Thus, I am prompted to assume that this class actually receives no BAB as part of its class features, which would fit with all the other restrictions that mitigate the combat effectiveness that may normally come with have loads of hit points.

Didn't even see that.

If that's the case, so be it. But wow...>Yeah, just wow for now. :smallwink:

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-29, 02:03 AM

Thanks to all of you for your advice! After reading the thread, this is what my friend (the creator of the class) says:

To do absolutely anything, you need to deal damage to a unit. This makes the thing you attacked a marked a "Marked Target". To do any damage to the target you then need to do a Ritual to the God of Immortality and you need to be in the circle to do damage back. This character is a modified Hidan just in case you were wondering

Key things:

-You can have multiple "Marked Targets"

but you can only deal damage to one of them

-Provoke essentially replaces attack

-Cannot attack with anything higher than 1 damage (Unable to use any weapons)

Hit Dice 20 would be insane on other characters but you need to understand some things

-I have an armor class of 9 which is absolutely pathetic for a tank. (can't wear armor or use shields)

-No reflex saves

-The only form of damage is to attack myself or have someone else attack me

-I only worked until lvl 7 though I don't blame you guys for criticizing me on that one cause there was no mention of that

-I do have reasonable skills, but I didn't post them in the e-mail (2 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level). If it really helps you guys out ill post them

-Dealing with ranged gets help at level 5. He can get them with the knife then just use inflict pain to kill them but it is obviously a much harder process than just shooting an arrow. Just like any balanced hero he needs to have multiple weak points and this is one of them.

The guy is unusual. All of those ideas about having Attack Bonus modifiers and other basic things would no doubt be incredibly important but he isn't just some hack and slash character. I would rather get this guy to work cause all of the other suggestions are great but they are just hack and slash characters with the feedback ability as a gimmick.

I think my friend just wants to use a class that's not pre-made. He wants to play his own self-made class. I'm totally fine with that, but with his huge d20 HD combined with his Monk fortitude and will save progressions... I'm just not sure. I'll tell him to rework the class more, I suppose. The DM's gotta lay down the law occasionally.

(Oh, and also he apparently likes using Naruto characters as ideas for his classes)

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-29, 06:58 AM

Well, in order to judge it properly and make comments, we do need to see the entire class, or at least enough of it to make a judgment call. Currently I'm not certain how combat goes, for instance. I get the basic idea, but it's still very vague.

For instance, none of the abilities really have exact rules mechanics tied to them. Ritual of the God of Immortality, for example, "deals damage to a unit." How much? Under what restrictions? What sort of action is Provoke, and why does that ability fit the flavor? Why the nil base attack bonus (even a Wizard gets a small one), and why no reflex save (again, every character can move)? Why can it never wear any armor?

What is a link and how can you make it? What is a shred? How can I damage a target to mark it if the only way I can deal damage is a knife, and I have no base attack bonus?

Most importantly, what is the class concept, in as concise a form as possible?

A Wizard is a studious master of arcane master. A Fighter is an versatile martial fighter. A Knight is a honorable martial class that defends its allies. In a paragraph or less, what is this class? How is it supposed to fight (mechanics aside)?

That stuff will help us.

Analytica

2010-06-29, 11:45 AM

This character is a modified Hidan just in case you were wondering

Yeah, I suspected that. I like that concept. For those of you unfamiliar with Hidan, this is a powerful evil ninja who happens to be 1) immortal and 2) completely insane. He made up his own bogus religion according to which he must kill people to please the god of death. He does this by getting some of their blood and tasting it. He can then make a ritual circle, stab himself, and the other person dies instead.

Note that the original Hidan character certainly is not limited to only that technique, he just favors it. That is, he can use whatever weapon he wants, probably have lots of skills and countless other ninjutsu/genjutsu techniques that simply didn't come up in the few Naruto episodes where he was present.

If I would build Hidan, I would probably use a swordsage, apply a template that gives regeneration (to represent him literally being unable to die - he can't reattach limbs by himself though), and give him a Tome of Battle maneuver to represent the sacrificial ceremony thing.

If I had to build a custom class for him it would probably be something like:

- All good saves
- D8 hit dice
- Medium BAB
- 4+Int skill points/level, skills are same as for ranger + Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: Psionics, Autohypnosis and Psicraft
- Psionic manifestation ability as a Psychic Warrior (see the SRD)
- Regeneration 1 per 5 levels vs fire or acid
- Bonus psionic feat every 5 levels

The class gains Share Pain, Forced:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm

as a bonus 1st-level (lowered from 3rd) known power at the first level of this class. Unlike normal, use of this power is not prevented by having Regeneration. Range becomes Touch but a drop of blood from the target enables use at any range. The following unique augments become possible by performing a specific ritual (drawing a circle on the ground and declaring a sacrifice to the god of death):
1 - Spend 2 power points to increase duration to 10 minutes / level
2 - Spend 2 power points to make the effect (following activation) possible at any range.

YMMV.

sim2er

2010-06-29, 03:54 PM

Very -very- campaign specific that class, no? Also you forgot Hit die

oops, edited in (it's a d10). and why do you say it is very specific to a campaign?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-29, 04:04 PM

oops, edited in (it's a d10). and why do you say it is very specific to a campaign?

Because it's specific to a situation where you'd find yourself in a crowd situation. Also, it's incredibly weak, just as a heads up. :smallbiggrin:

jiriku

2010-06-29, 04:38 PM

Arguskos, you may call me an elitist for this, but frankly I'm going to stand by what I said. /shrug

For the OP, I'll start by directly addressing your concern: your friend's class is not overpowered. It is unbalanced, which is to say that it is too strong at some things and too weak at others, but taken as a whole, it's an extremely low-powered class.

For the class creator, since you're evidently reading the thread too: You need to radically expand your vision of the class. It looks like you're trying to build a character who essentially emulates a single tactic of a highly stylized character you saw in a cartoon, and presumably planning to spam that tactic.

Classes need to be broader than that. Dungeons and Dragons is a bigger game than that.

Your opponents aren't "units", they're people. They're well-rounded and clever. They will adapt and respond. They will figure out that you only have one schtick. When they realize that you can't harm them in any way without first a) being attacked or b) stabbing people with your dinky little ritual knife, they'll disarm you, or trip-lock you, or grapple and pin you, or immobilize you with grease, web, hold person, suggestion ("hold still until I tell you otherwise"), evard's black tentacles, solid fog, force cage, etc, etc. Or they'll outrun you, or fly out of your reach, or simply thwart you with their good saves and a high AC. Then they'll ignore you and kill all your friends. A good D&D class is like a world-class baseball pitcher: he knows many kinds of pitches. Even if he throws the best fastball in the world, it's only one trick in his pitching toolkit and he has many other options when it's time to throw the ball.

Please do post your skills. Aside from combat, you need the ability to contribute in a variety of ways when you're not cutting yourself with a knife. The "hack n slash" characters that you're disparaging can often change shape, impersonate others, move stealthily or even invisibly, find and disarm traps, win hearts and minds, identify magic items, travel long distances at great speeds or even instantly, create and repair objects through magic.... What can your Stuffy Doll do? He needs a broad set of class skills, and preferably some non-combat abilities. Even the lowliest hack-n-slash fighter can typically ride a horse, jump over a hole, or climb a rough wall. What can Stuffy Doll do?

Further, you should put some thought into the arbitrary restrictions you've placed on the class. Your class can't use ranged weapons, doesn't know how to fight, and won't wear armor. Why is this? Most people who routinely go into dangerous situations do all of these things, and for good reason: they're smart things to do. Classes that don't do these things typically have a good reason not to (e.x. wizards don't train with armor because they can't cast spells effectively in armor, and spells are really really good). What good reason does this class have for abstaining from even the most basic tools for surviving in dangerous situations, yet continually seeking out dangerous situations (which D&D characters tend to do)? If your answer is something like "because that's what the cartoon character did", ask yourself if maybe the character couldn't have been persuaded to pick up a javalin, practice with a knife, or strap on a shield if his life depended on it.

sim2er

2010-06-29, 05:24 PM

Because it's specific to a situation where you'd find yourself in a crowd situation. Also, it's incredibly weak, just as a heads up. :smallbiggrin:

and i was worried that it would be too strong, especially since it effectively grants the use of all exotic weapons. i guess the crowd mechanic is of very limited utility (mainly urban environments, like bar brawls). is there any advice you can give to improve the power levels? (beyond simply increasing the potency of what i have already)

in particular, i am looking for a final power to grant at level ten, one that is really cool but balanced and in the same time, just like those prestige classes that you really wanted to take just for that ability.

i also want to focus on the perform (weapons drill) skill. i will update the class soon and post the improved version

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-29, 05:39 PM

and i was worried that it would be too strong, especially since it effectively grants the use of all exotic weapons. i guess the crowd mechanic is of very limited utility (mainly urban environments, like bar brawls). is there any advice you can give to improve the power levels? (beyond simply increasing the potency of what i have already)

in particular, i am looking for a final power to grant at level ten, one that is really cool but balanced and in the same time, just like those prestige classes that you really wanted to take just for that ability.

i also want to focus on the perform (weapons drill) skill. i will update the class soon and post the improved version

I'd recommend a new thread. I don't want to derail this one with a drawn out critique of a class other than the OPs. :smallbiggrin:

DragoonWraith

2010-06-29, 06:17 PM

A good D&D class is like a world-class baseball pitcher: he knows many kinds of pitches. Even if he throws the best fastball in the world, it's only one trick in his pitching toolkit and he has many other options when it's time to throw the ball.
I know this is totally irrelevant and such, but just a commentary here: Mariano Rivera more-or-less throws exactly one pitch, always and every time, his cutter. He's also undoubtedly the best closer to ever pitch. Though, to be fair, that's in part because the cutter is very versatile - he can put it any where he likes, and with the degree of control he has, he doesn't really need anything else.

Your analogy is otherwise good.

Hamswordsman

2010-06-29, 06:36 PM

Well I am the creator of the Stuffy Doll and here is a long list of the stuff that will help to answer a lot of the questions (hopefully):

Well, in order to judge it properly and make comments, we do need to see the entire class, or at least enough of it to make a judgment call. Currently I'm not certain how combat goes, for instance. I get the basic idea, but it's still very vague.

For instance, none of the abilities really have exact rules mechanics tied to them. Ritual of the God of Immortality, for example, "deals damage to a unit." How much? Under what restrictions? What sort of action is Provoke, and why does that ability fit the flavor? Why the nil base attack bonus (even a Wizard gets a small one), and why no reflex save (again, every character can move)? Why can it never wear any armor?

What is a link and how can you make it? What is a shred? How can I damage a target to mark it if the only way I can deal damage is a knife, and I have no base attack bonus?

Most importantly, what is the class concept, in as concise a form as possible?

A Wizard is a studious master of arcane master. A Fighter is an versatile martial fighter. A Knight is a honorable martial class that defends its allies. In a paragraph or less, what is this class? How is it supposed to fight (mechanics aside)?

That stuff will help us.

1. A warrior who has forsaken the ways of chivalrous combat and dipped into forbidden magic. Gods gave him the gift of immortality but has gradually lost his humanity. He was also gifted with the ability to share the pain he feels with others and unlike most people, he finds pain to be a pleasurable experience. He charges headlong into battle just to see the suffering he causes. Torture is one of its hobbies.
2. Ability classes: CONSTITUTION because you need all of the hp you can get followed by anything you need help on. Dex can be used to help your absolutely pitiful AC and initiative, Charisma can be used as diplomatic help and can help in interrogation, Intelligence can help it with skills, Wisdom can help with will saves. The only one that won't really help you is Strength.
3. General Alignment:, MUST BE CHAOTIC USUALLY EVIL BUT CAN BE NEUTRAL
4. D20
5. Skills (2 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
6. The skills are on the character sheet, Forgot what they were (the Dm is keeping our character sheets). I do know that I have healing, Appraise, Balance, Survival, Spot, Listen, but I forgot the other ones cause I didnt put points into them because other people have it covered.
7. Weapon Proficiency: None, Ritual Knife
8. Armor Proficiency: None
9. I have no idea what all of them are. I just have up to 7 now. I am open for any cool suggestions you guys might have for later levels. I will probably show the lvl 4 skill sometime but obviously I am not very good at explaining things so I'll try and figure out how to word it better.
10. Base Attack: None
11. Saves: Same as Druid but never gains anything positive to Reflex regardless of items, Dex modifier (can go negative).

Ritual to the God of Immortality: When the stuffy doll is in the circle, then his feedback, mutilate, share condition, share poison, and other abilities work
Provoke is largely just there to replace attack. If I didn't have it, then the creatures would just walk right by me and attack squishy things. The action itself is a verbal one that insults the individual and improved provoke is one with verbal and I do gestures to insult it.

This is also based on the idea of the MTG card Stuffy Doll. The parentheses are there to show where they manifest in the character.
Here is the text for it:

As Stuffy Doll comes into play, choose a player. (Kinda like Marking Creature)
Stuffy Doll is indestructible. (High HP)
Whenever damage is dealt to Stuffy Doll, it deals that much damage to the chosen player. (Feedback)
T: Stuffy Doll deals 1 damage to itself. (Inflict Pain)
0/1 (Notice why I can't hit anything for any damage)

As for the damage it is basically unavoidable. Reflex saves don't really work because how do you dodge yourself? I get cut so a cut appears on him, I don't get how you can reflex save that.

To address the idea of marking: To make it easier, If I deal damage to a unit or if I have its blood, it is a marked unit. The link is made when you deal the damage but it really wont do you much good unless you are in the circle cause none of your skills work.

The knife is the only thing that can deal damage that was the point. The knife is like magic missile, it is homing but does not hit with enough force to negate grappling attempts or the like. If I put poison or some other modifier on it, it loses homing.

Here is generally how my turn goes:
Turn one: Attack using the ritual knife to deal 1 damage and make a circle or move and make circle
DM turn: They attack various targets, if something attacks me then I deal damage back with my ability.
Turn two: Provoke, Inflict Pain, or mark another unit
DM turn: Provoked creature attacks me and maybe some others
...... You get the point'
Inflict Pain can be used but I can easily overestimate or underestimate how much hp the enemy has left so provoke is my main attack option

Level 4 skill helps to deal with it. In short it is more or less a restrictive spell
I do have Transfer poison and transfer Condition. This lets my team do poisons and other things on a willing target and it transfers over to a marked unit.
Flying stuff will just get provoked into attacking me
My friends can also collect the blood and just hand it to me
Good luck disarming from 30ft away
I LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE TRY TO HANDICAP ME:smallsmile:!! They get to share the effects
Its fun because I am always in charge of keeping track of captives: If it starts running, I stab myself to turn him unconscious.
I am supposed to be a tank more than anything anyways. I can deal a reasonable amount of damage but everyone else on my team easily out damages me.

Can you tell me how a barbarian or fighter are not one trick ponies? They seem to just walk up and hack. It would really help me out if you told me more of what you are looking for.

For the arbitrary reductions I am going to parallel this to a monk:
When a monk enters a dungeon without any weapons or armor (usually) it isn't that peculiar because that is how a monk works: he fights with his fists and does just fine.
When a Stuffy Doll enters the dungeon,it also isn't that peculiar because that's how he fights: Using his knife and transferring damage and status to the enemy.
I could take them away, but it is more of a balancing measure than anything. It also makes Multi-Classing him a lot more difficult

erikun

2010-06-29, 07:01 PM

Hamswordsman

2010-06-29, 07:25 PM

While unique ideas are certainly fun to play, you might want to try homebrewing a bit before creating something so extreme. As it is, the character can barely climb a ladder, much less participate in combat.

What is the range on Provoke? How does it make them attack Mr. Stuffy? When does is wear off? How is it dispelled? What happens when an opponent attempts to take possession of the ability and use it against the party, or even if you give Stuffy levels to an opponent with a ton of HP?

Having no armor proficiencies doesn't really stop anything. Wizards run around in twilight mithral elven chain and don't worry and spell failure, and Monks have no problem boosting their AC to high levels. (Their problem is typically damaging things.)

Right now, a vampire could tickle your class to death, and there is really nothing they could do about it.

If you want a more "traditional" class with similar abilities, I could see how it would work. I believe the Martial has a Taunt/Provoke/"Marking" ability that you can steal, and given the way you describe the class, it sounds a lot like the Warlock. You could easily design a curse-to-redirect-damage for the class, and other powers like vampiric (gain HP from damage dealt) or applying negative levels would fit very well with the theme.

Provoke range hasn't really ever come up oddly enough. Obviously it needs a definite range. I was thinking 100ft. Anyways when provoked, if the unit fails its will save (I think I put some where earlier I think), then the unit moves towards the provoker and uses his standard action to attack it. Only lasts 1 turn

I don't really want any armor class because I would then be avoiding damage and thus not dealing anything because I took no damage. I guess so you don't abuse the d20 by making it an unbeatable tank I should probably add something about no positive AC modifiers like I did with reflex saves. Then again that is no fun because you are not doing anything except sitting there cause you surely aren't doing any damage.

Yes I have dealt with vampires and it sucked. Luckily I have a team to help me out. Everyone has their weaknesses.

I really want to avoid traditional stuff. I just really like the idea of forging your own path. It is just one of those un explainable urges.

Antebellum

2010-06-29, 07:38 PM

In regards to your concern of blandness, there are other ways to be creative and distinguish your character beyond class abilities. Develop a personality for your character, with quirks and unique behaviours and outlooks.

Most things of DnD aren't very special unless made so by the player. A fighter who hits things day after day is boring and generic. A scarred fighter who is the last remaining heir of the Razorwind fighting style from the now decimated Plains of Verin is a little less so (and even then, could still use a fair bit of definition).

The mechanics are only mechanics. To fill out the rest of the character is the player's job.

Lastly, remember that you are not limited in most actions by mechanics. You can do whatever your character can reasonably do and by using mundane items, terrain, and other non-character factors creatively, you can create some extraordinarily memorable moments.

Edit: Also, its generally bad form to completely tank certain, integral attributes such as dodging, armor class (even the monk gets a wis bonus inherent to the class, even though its easily duplicated with a monk's belt) and accuracy to justify ridiculous other attributes. In this case, you're completely tanking defences in exchange for...something. If you've ever read the webcomic goblins, this reminds me of the warrior guy, who "gave up his ability to rhyme on purpose" for +1 to attack or something.

erikun

2010-06-29, 07:44 PM

jiriku

2010-06-29, 08:24 PM

Honestly, it doesn't seem all that powerful to me. Granted, the primary attack mode (poke enemy and then go emo on self) is difficult to avoid, chiefly because you haven't bothered to define how it can be avoided, but your class has soooo many holes in it.

Like, ok, lemme just throw a few examples here.

Level 1 wizard casts grease underneath you. You fail the Reflex save because your Ref save sucks, and fall on your butt. You can't get up and go anywhere because you can't pass a Balance check either. This is a Challenge Rating 1 bad guy.
Flying manticore shoots you with spikes. You provoke and he fails his Will save...so he just flies around and shoots you some more. He doesn't need to close to melee range.
Your ally gets attacked by A SWARM OF KILLER BEES. You provoke...and nothing happens, because bees don't speak Common.

Now, if your DM is nice and throws you encounters that play to your strengths, it's all good. And if your DM is a novice and doesn't know how to build very difficult encounters, it's also fine and dandy.

If.

Personally, I'd recommend that you fill those levels above level 7 with some features that patch the gaps in your capabilities.

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-29, 08:32 PM

I organized the information for Hamswordsman and made a class table up to level 10 (we aren't certain what abilities the class will get at higher levels yet).

Stuffy Doll

A warrior who has forsaken the ways of chivalrous combat and dipped into forbidden magic. Gods gave him the gift of immortality but has gradually lost his humanity. He was also gifted with the ability to share the pain he feels with others and unlike most people, he finds pain to be a pleasurable experience. He charges headlong into battle just to see the suffering he causes. Torture is one of its hobbies.

Abilities: Constitution is vital because the Stuffy Doll needs all of the health he or she can get to endure injuries. Charisma can be used as diplomatic help and can help in interrogation, Intelligence can help with skills, and Wisdom can help with will saves. Strength and Dexterity are not nearly as necessary for the Stuffy Doll.

Alignment: Any nongood.

Hit Die: d20.

Class Skills

The Stuffy Doll's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Stuffy Doll
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Ritual to the God of Immortality, Feedback, Inflict Pain, Battle Hungry, Worshiper of Pain, Inability to Fight, Arcane/Psionic Weakness

2nd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|Provoke

3rd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|Share Poison

4th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|Mutilate

5th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|Chained Knife

6th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|Improved Provoke

7th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|Share Condition

8th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

9th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

10th|
+0|
+7|
+0|
+7|Favor in Battle
[/table]

Ritual to the God of Immortality: 1 Standard or Move Action. The ritual deals one damage to user (this damage bypasses any form of damage resistance in order to utilize the user's blood). The Ritual creates a symbol (20 ft. radius) of user's blood. The symbol lasts for the number of rounds equal to the levels in Stuffy Doll of the user. After completion, it allows the user to deal feedback damage to a marked unit when Stuffy Doll is inside the radius of the symbol.

Feedback: Feedback deals damage equal to (1/2 * damage taken) + 1/10 * current level) to target marked creature. For example, if a 10th level Stuffy Doll is dealt 20 damage while inside his or her Ritual circle, the Stuffy Doll can choose to deal (1/2 * 20) + 1/10 * 10 damage (which is 10 + 1, 11) to target marked creature.

Inflict Pain: With the Ritual Knife, the Stuffy Doll may deal up to 5 times his or her current levels damage to him or herself.

Battle Hungry: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from the use ranged weapons.

Worshiper of Pain: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from wearing armor.

Inability to Fight: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from using weapons other than the Ritual Knife.

Arcane/Psionic Weakness: A Stuffy Doll may never advance in spell casting or psionic powers again. Their bodies are not capable of harnessing the massive energy and power required to do so.

Provoke: Provokes a creature to attack you (DC to overcome is DC 10 + 1/2 Character level + Con. modifier). This marks the creature and lasts 1 turn.

Share Poison: If you are poisoned, your chosen marked target is poisoned as well (this is temporary, for example if you are poisoned and then switch targets, then that target will become poisoned but
previous marked target will no longer be poisoned).

Mutilate: The Stuffy Doll cuts off a limb, dealing as much damage as the Stuffy Doll chooses, to itself.

Chained Knife: Attaches a chain to your knife allowing the Stuffy Doll to throw it 30 ft.

Improved Provoke: Full-round action. The save for Improved Provoke is DC 10 + Character Level + Con Modifier.

Share Condition: Same as Share Poison, but more far-reaching. Share Condition allows the Stuffy Doll to use his or her Mutilate ability to make a target marked creature's limb useless. This lasts for 1/2X rounds where X is how much damage the Stuffy Doll chooses to take. For example, if the Stuffy Doll marks a creature holding a weapon in its right hand, the Stuffy Doll could cut off his right arm for 20 damage. The target marked creature then loses the use of its right arm for 10 rounds and also drops the weapon it was wielding in its right hand. Death cannot be a shared condition.

Favor in Battle: The God of Immortality favors his most faithful servants. Thus, a 10th level or higher Stuffy Doll no longer needs a Ritual circle to deal feedback damage to his or her marked creatures.

Ritual Knife: The ritual knife can always deals 1 damage, even through damage reduction, but cannot be buffed, poisoned, or modified. This does not automatically negate grapples or anything of that variety.

Hamswordsman

2010-06-29, 08:33 PM

Hey, fair enough. One of the apparently best kept secrets in RPGs is that having fun takes priority over everything else. As long as everyone is enjoying themselves, it doesn't much matter how broken or quirky the class is.

Then again, the primary point of the thread is asking how well the class works - "Is it fair?," from the topic. Most people are going to judge it based on existing classes, or at least on existing mechanics, and the class does seem incredibly powerful based on that. Balance, Listen, Spot, and Survival as class skills, d20 HD, and a must-attack-me-no-resistance ability make the class incredibly powerful. The fact that it cannot attack doesn't seem to matter much when it can deal damage without an attack roll (by stabbing themselves) and making their allies basically immune to attacks.

If the class is working for you, stick with it. I don't see any future abilities that would break the class or make it unable to function. If you're trying to submit it to a homebrew class competition, though, it needs some rather serious work.

I don't know where you got the no resistance attacj me ability. I said it is against a will save but for exact reference it is DC 10 +.5 character level + Con mod in order for provoke to work. It only effects one unit. I don't see how this is much different than rolling an attack roll except that I am taking damage. Survival would be a great skill but for some reason we dont eat and i have not rolled it once. Im sure in other campaigns it is crucial but not in this one. Anyways can you suggest some class skills that would make sense?

Hamswordsman

2010-06-29, 08:44 PM

zenanarchist

2010-06-29, 08:45 PM

I organized the information for Hamswordsman and made a class table up to level 10 (we aren't certain what abilities the class will get at higher levels yet).

Stuffy Doll

A warrior who has forsaken the ways of chivalrous combat and dipped into forbidden magic. Gods gave him the gift of immortality but has gradually lost his humanity. He was also gifted with the ability to share the pain he feels with others and unlike most people, he finds pain to be a pleasurable experience. He charges headlong into battle just to see the suffering he causes. Torture is one of its hobbies.

Abilities: Constitution is vital because the Stuffy Doll needs all of the health he or she can get to endure injuries. Charisma can be used as diplomatic help and can help in interrogation, Intelligence can help with skills, and Wisdom can help with will saves. Strength and Dexterity are not nearly as necessary for the Stuffy Doll.

Alignment: Any nongood.

Hit Die: d20.

Class Skills

The Stuffy Doll's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Stuffy Doll
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Ritual to the God of Immortality, Feedback, Inflict Pain, Battle Hungry, Worshiper of Pain, Inability to Fight

2nd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|Provoke

3rd|
+0|
+3|
+0|
+3|

4th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|

5th|
+0|
+4|
+0|
+4|Chained Knife

6th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|Improved Provoke

7th|
+0|
+5|
+0|
+5|

8th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

9th|
+0|
+6|
+0|
+6|

10th|
+0|
+7|
+0|
+7|
[/table]

Ritual to the God of Immortality: 1 Standard or Move Action. The ritual Deals one damage to user (this damage bypasses any form of damage resistance in order to utilize the user's blood). The Ritual creates a symbol (20 ft. radius) of user's blood. The symbol lasts for the number of rounds equal to the level of the Stuffy Doll. After completion, it allows the user to deal feedback damage to a marked unit when Stuffy Doll is inside the radius of the symbol.

Feedback: Deals (1/2 * damage taken) + 1/10 * Character Level damage you take in circle is dealt back to target marked creature. For example, if a 10th level Stuffy Doll is dealt 20 damage while inside his or her Ritual circle, the Stuffy Doll can choose to deal (1/2 * 20) + 1/10 * 10 damage (which is 10 + 1, 11).

Inflict Pain: With the Ritual Knife, the Stuffy Doll may deal up to 5 * class levels in Stuffy Doll damage to him or herself.

Battle Hungry: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from the use ranged weapons.

Worshiper of Pain: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from wearing armor.

Inability to Fight: Stuffy Dolls are prohibited from using weapons other than the Ritual Knife.

Provoke: Provokes a creature to attack you (DC to overcome is DC 10 + 1/2 Character level + Con. modifier). This marks the creature and lasts 1 turn.

Improved Provoke: Full-round action. The save for Improved Provoke is DC 10 + Character Level + Con Modifier.

Share Poison: If you are poisoned, your chosen marked target is poisoned as well (this is temporary, for example if you are poisoned and then switch targets, then that target will become poisoned but
previous marked target will no longer be poisoned).

Chained Knife: Attaches a chain to your knife allowing the Stuffy Doll to throw it 30 ft.

Ritual Knife: The ritual knife can always deals 1 damage, even through damage reduction, but cannot be buffed, poisoned, or modified. This does not automatically negate grapples or anything of that variety.

Too front heavy. They get everything at level 1.

Hello dip class. (Especially considering D20 hit die)

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-29, 08:52 PM

Too front heavy. They get everything at level 1.

Hello dip class. (Especially considering D20 hit die)

Yes, but I think that the inability to use weapons (besides the ritual knife) and armor discourages most people from taking a level in Stuffy Doll. We should definitely put in another restriction that prevents the Stuffy Doll from casting spells and/or other restrictions that dissuade other classes from dipping in Stuffy Doll.

zenanarchist

2010-06-29, 08:55 PM

Yes, but I think that the inability to use weapons (besides the ritual knife) and armor discourages most people from taking a level in Stuffy Doll. We should definitely put in another restriction that prevents the Stuffy Doll from casting spells and/or other restrictions that dissuade other classes from dipping in Stuffy Doll.

Psionics wouldn't mind no weapons.

But yes:

Arcane/Psionic Weakness (Ex)

A Stuffy Doll may never advance spell casting or psionic powers again. They're bodies are not capable of harnessing the massive energy and power required to do such.

Perhaps?

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-29, 09:05 PM

Open level in fighter. Mix and stir for instant armor, shields, and weapon proficiency.

Results may vary.

The thing is though that once you take a level in Stuffy Doll, it's not just you don't know how to use weapons and armor, it's also that you are strictly prohibited from using weapons and armor. Perhaps if the Stuffy Doll attempts to use weapons and/or armor, he or she loses all of the class abilities of the Stuffy Doll (plus maybe losing a bunch of health in order to balance out the d20 HD).

Edit: Also, zenanarchist I like that restriction. I'll put it into the class table.

Antebellum

2010-06-29, 09:05 PM

Just to say...Battle Hungry and Inability to Fight are redundant.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-29, 09:06 PM

A class that bans all other forms of power is a bad idea. 3.5 has a multiclassing system for a reason; breaking it is not good. A Fighter/Stuffy, Wizard/Stuffy, etc., should all be possible.

I still fail to see why this couldn't be a standard PrC, with a more normal HD and BAB, better power progression, better skills (because honestly, only Wizards should have 2+Int skills), and avoiding all of these issues.

Salbazier

2010-06-29, 09:10 PM

Well lets start:
1. Now it is quite interesting. 2 ways to go. Provoke the wizard to prevent it from doing status or if it is marked then it falls diwn and has to wait for me to get up I dont know why share condition isnt on there.
2. provoke the manticore, it works, manticore moves towards you and is now in range due to provoke. He has to descend if it is the only way to get closer.
3. I think if someone was making fun of you in chinese, You would get insulted

I'm not an expert in homebrewing, but just some comments. (mostly nitpick though)

Exactly how provoke works? What kind of ability (extraordinary (ex), supernatural (su), or spell-like (sp) ?) Is it basically provoking by speaking insulting words or proclamation of challenge? Because it doesn't matter at all if you are making fun of *insert low int or mindless creature here* in chinese or gobbledegook. They just simply cannot comprehend what you are saying by virtue of being too 'stupid'

On wizard and grease, you can get Grease'd before you have chance to provoke or mark him (or he make his will save, casters have good will save ). And share condition is lvl 8. Before that you are vulnerable to a level 1 enemy. Being prone doesn't hinder wizard in the slightest anyway. Well, to be fair it is only one spell and of the best level 1 spell

Oh, describe exactly what kind condition is shared by shared condition. Is dead included? If yes, that can lead to some funny stuff.

Basically, I think you need to be more detail in how each ability works. (I didn't see any ex/su/sp/ps tag there)

Hamswordsman

2010-06-29, 09:46 PM

I'm not an expert in homebrewing, but just some comments. (mostly nitpick though)

Exactly how provoke works? What kind of ability (extraordinary (ex), supernatural (su), or spell-like (sp) ?) Is it basically provoking by speaking insulting words or proclamation of challenge? Because it doesn't matter at all if you are making fun of *insert low int or mindless creature here* in chinese or gobbledegook. They just simply cannot comprehend what you are saying by virtue of being too 'stupid'

On wizard and grease, you can get Grease'd before you have chance to provoke or mark him (or he make his will save, casters have good will save ). And share condition is lvl 8. Before that you are vulnerable to a level 1 enemy. Being prone doesn't hinder wizard in the slightest anyway. Well, to be fair it is only one spell and of the best level 1 spell

Oh, describe exactly what kind condition is shared by shared condition. Is dead included? If yes, that can lead to some funny stuff.

Basically, I think you need to be more detail in how each ability works. (I didn't see any ex/su/sp/ps tag there)

I just liked the idea of a guy insulting his mom and then enjoying getting pummeled amd realize he was only beating himself. Provoke no doubt needs a revision in that case but i still want to be able to insult people. If anyone has a good idea plz share.
And why do i have to stand up to cut myself? besides, i can still tank which is the point of the charatcer to begin with. I can still use my knife on other targets. We are a team after all
I thought I put it some where but basically the only condition that is not shared is death

Ya the ability to not cast spells is a good idea or else you get wizards that can tank with d 20....
Its frontloaded with 3 abilities that do nothing without the other two effectively making it 1 and 3 negative abilities

Anyone have some cool ideas for abilities?

erikun

2010-06-29, 10:00 PM

I don't know where you got the no resistance attacj me ability. I said it is against a will save but for exact reference it is DC 10 +.5 character level + Con mod in order for provoke to work.
The way it was written in the first post, the provoked character must attack you and must move into melee to do so if possible. That means provoking AoOs from the rest of the party if necessary, Wizards dispelling obstructions to get to you, and stuff like Beholders forgoing eyerays in order to float over to you for a weak bite attack. It doesn't quite seem to be what it does in the more recent writeup, though.

I organized the information for Hamswordsman and made a class table up to level 10 (we aren't certain what abilities the class will get at higher levels yet).
Alright, well let's take a look at what you have so far.

Ritual to the God of Immortality
I assume this deals 1 HP damage to the user, and creates an immobile circle? It also seems that it could be created anywhere, even in water or midair. It sounds like a spell-like ability.

Feedback
A very odd formula. The additional damage seems rather pointless, as it deals 1-2 damage before epic levels. (1/10 = 0.1 rounded up = 1, 20/10 = 2)

Inflict Pain
I guess that's one way to deal damage, even with a strength penality.

Battle Hungry
Worshiper of Pain
Inability to Fight
Sounds pretty simple, although quite restrictive with anyone who might have a slightly different idea about the class. Does Inability to Fight mean that Stuffys cannot use unarmed strikes?

What happens if they lose their ritual knife?

Arcane/Psionic Weakness
Never advance again? Do they keep what they already have?

This also doesn't seem to restrict Warlock powers, Binding, Shadowcasting, Truenaming (heh), or Factorium duplication of spellcasting.

Provoke
Improved Provoke
Well here is our mark. It doesn't quite mention what "Provokes a creature to attack you" quite means though, including what they will go through to attack you or what an attack actually means. Would throwing insults be attacking? Would killing a downed ally? What about grappling and tossing off a cliff?

No mention of what kind of action Provoke is - I assume Standard action, though. I find it odd that such a critical class feature is restricted to 2nd level. Provoke also needs a range.

Share Poison
A fairly odd ability. A lot of poisonous things are immune to their own poison, either logically or through game mechanics. Since they are actually poisoned, they would get their own saving throws (after you failed, since if you saved then you wouldn't be poisoned) and they likely won't be marked long enough to suffer secondary damage.

Chained Knife
That's an odd way of doing it. Throwing a 1d4 weapon with BAB +0 is a terrible idea, though. What happens if someone grabs it out of the air, though? Are you them connected to them by 30' of chain, I assume?

Ritual Knife
Ah, finally the properities of the knife. It is a standard 1d4 weapon that is immune to Magical Weapon and can never be enchanted. It bypasses damage reduction, although for no meaningful damage. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "does not automatically negate grapples" and the like, though. Are you saying that wielding the knife is not considered a weapon? Or that it somehow completely ignores the grappling rules?

Overall, Provoke/marking seem unclear about what the target is compelled to do. If it means melee, then it is incredibly overpowering in any social situation where you can provoke a rival and get them arrested for assulting you. If not, then it wouldn't be much for a spellcaster to throw a Sleet Storm or Telekinetic Thrust at the Stuffy Doll to completely negate them. Or, y'know, eat them, because being removed from the circle completely negates anything the Stuffy Doll can do.

The knife, as mentioned, is a bit unclear on its restrictions and capabilities. Such as why you are unable to throw it.

The restrictions seem needlessly over the top, except for the spellcasting restriction, which doesn't seem to cover everything. It seems that there is absolutely no way to play this class expect as a beefy punching bag, which seems quite counter to a system designed for multiclassing in mind.

Overall, the class runs into two kind of opponents: Ones that it can provoke and deal damage back to, or ones that can negate it and ignore it. Which creatures fit into which categories depends on how Provoke actually works, which isn't quite clear.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-29, 10:01 PM

OK, thoughts on how I'd do this.

One, the ritual is a little weird. It sort of immobilizes the user, which is bad, but it's set up rather quickly so it almost doesn't matter. I get that it's from the source fluff, but considering how quickly it happens I feel like it's better to just... not use it. But whatever, say we do.

The next point is, what does this class do? I mean, OK, it's got that one neat schtick, but it's just one thing. That's not so great. You might make a 5, or perhaps better 3, level class around it, but it's not going to define your character the way you want it to.

This seems like a pretty good class to introduce a mechanic whereby you get stronger the more damage you've taken. Maybe a Crusader PrC to focus on their Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike class features?

Ultimately, I don't see this class ever working as something that never uses anything but the Ritual Knife, the Feedback thing, and no weapons, armor, spells, powers, or maneuvers. It's just... it's too one-dimensional, it doesn't fit well within the system with respect to multiclassing. I like that Crusader-PrC idea, personally, though. Here's what I'm thinking:

Prerequisites
Class Features
Steely Resolve 10
Furious Counterstrike
Feats
Improved Toughness
Skills
Knowledge (Arcana) 3 ranks.

Hit Die
d12.

Skills
Class Skills - The class skills of the Stuffy Doll (and the key ability modifier for each) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points per Level - 4 + Int.

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | M. Known
1st | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Ritual Knife, Ferocious Counterstrike, Provoke, Inflict Pain, Steely Resolve +5, Toughness | +0
2nd | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Ritual of the Immortal God, Feedback, Steely Resolve +10, Toughness | +0
3rd | +1 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Chained Knife, Improved Provoke, Steely Resolve +20, Toughness | +1[/table]
Armor and Weapons Proficiency - The Stuffy Doll gains no new proficiencies.

Maneuvers Known - At 3rd level, you gain a single maneuver from the Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, or Tiger Claw disciplines. You add your full Stuffy Doll class level to your Initiator Level.

Ritual Knife (Ex) - You gain a Ritual Knife. This weapon must be in hand to use any Stuffy Doll class features, excepting the augmentation to your Steely Resolve delayed damage pool.

Ferocious Counterstrike (Ex) - In addition to the usual benefits of Furious Counterstrike, your attacks also gain 1d8 damage times the bonus from Furious Counterstrike. Further, the Furious Counterstrike bonus increases by +1 for every 5 damage indefinitely, within the limits of your Steely Resolve delayed damage pool.

Provoke (Ex) - As a Swift action, you may provoke any enemy in sight. This is a mind-affecting, language-dependent effect, and is negated by a Will save against a DC of 10 + half your hit dice + your Cha modifier. On a failed save, the target is required to attack you in melee, spending each turn moving to become adjacent to you (or as close as he can), and if able, attacking you. Your foe need not use a weapon-based attack, merely has to do it while adjacent. This effect lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier, and marks your foe for the Feedback ability.

Inflict Pain (Ex) - As a Free action, you may use your Ritual Knife to deal damage to yourself equal to 15 times your class level. This damage may go to your delayed damage pool from Steely Resolve if it has room.

Steely Resolve (Ex) - As the Crusader class feature. You add 5 to your delayed damage pool at level 1, another 5 (10 total) at level 2, and add another 10 (20 total) at 3rd level.

Toughness - You gain Toughness as a Bonus Feat at every level of Stuffy Doll.

Ritual of the Immortal God (Su) - You may, once you are a 2nd level Stuffy Doll, spend a Swift action and take 1 damage. This damage may not be mitigated by any means, though it may be delayed if you have room in your Steely Resolve. It furthermore cannot be healed by any means until the end of the encounter. Doing so creates a symbol drawn in your blood that covers an area in a 20 ft. radius from your position. Creatures within the symbol who are marked by Provoke are subject to your Feedback ability (see below).

Feedback (Su) - Beginning at 2nd level, as a Swift action, you may deal as much damage as is currently present in your delayed damage pool from Steely Resolve to the foe you marked using Provoke, providing that he currently stands within the symbol made by Ritual of the Immortal God.

Chained Knife (Ex) - You attach a chain to your Ritual Knife at 3rd level, and it is thereafter treated as if it had the Throwing and Returning special properties on it, even if it is perfectly mundane, and these properties function even if the knife is within an Antimagic Field.

Improved Provoke (Su) - At 3rd level, your provocations are so laced with magical energy that creatures need not understand you, need not even have minds with which to understand, and yet still be provoked. Provoke loses the Mind-Affecting and Language-Dependent descriptors.
I think this fits the idea pretty well, but works much better within the framework of 3.5.

EDIT: Honestly, I don't care if you like this or not - I like it! - hehe. I have no idea what the source material on this was, but I'm pretty tempted to take this, strip out the references to the Ritual Knife, change the name (Stuffy Doll? Really?), and just post it in its own thread. I rather like the idea, personally.

Antebellum

2010-06-29, 10:18 PM

Btw, books allowed are core, RotW and if he's feeling generous, CAdv.

OP forgot to mention the ritual knife requires no attack roll. It hits. Every single time. No matter how much armor or damage reduction the enemy has. Its role is to draw the enemy's blood, thus marking them and making them available for taking mirror damage.

My problem with this is that sneak attack doesn't activate if the weapon damage can't overcome DR. It strikes me that a similar property should be in place for this weapon. I suppose it can be handwaved though as a "magic knife".

He also forgot to mention the Share Condition ability. It works exactly like share poison except conditions.

-----------------------

Now I realize this isn't the character optimization forums...but I consider this class utterly broken as written:

Potentially, assuming there is a single encounter of - lets say 80 hp at level 6.

After two preparation turns of marking and then drawing a circle, the Stuffy Doll could stab itself for 80 damage, instantly destroy the encounter and come out with 20 health remaining.

Two level 8 Stuffy dolls (which should have a about 130 hp each, depending on constitution, which I assume is +5) working in tandem can easily fell an Adult Red Dragon, which has 220~ hp, if I remember correctly.

----------------------

Transfer poison is vastly overpowered, assuming the Stuffy Doll can fail saves on purpose. Clearly, its main stat is constitution. Even if your mountain giant can take twenty or so con damage, your average spell caster sure can't.

So the Stuffy doll poisons himself for ~20 constitution damage. He loses a WHOLE BUNCH of HP. Luckily, its probably still on par with most warriors due to d20 HD and he's not in actual danger of dying.

He, even more so at level 10, marks an enemy. The enemy instantly takes 20 con damage. The enemy, assuming <20 con, will fall unconcious from con damage. Coup de grace. Move on to marking the next enemy. When we're finished cleaning off the blood, neutralize poison and we're good to go - actually why bother? keep the poison for the next encounter.

-----------------------

As for Improved Provoke, I'm tempted to think there's a reason why both Goad (RotW) and the Knight class use 1/2 character level. Not sure myself, but there probably is one.

-----------------------

Share condition can be abused in similar ways. Ability drain repeats the above and even if DM doesn't allow poison save failures on purpose, failing will saves purposefully is RAW...and RAI - or else we'd have will saves on healing spells. Helpless does the same.

Give the stuffy doll conditions that doesn't affect it much, due to the homing or ranged nature of its dagger or the fact the condition would be so debilitating it would utterly disable the foe. Dazzled. Sickened. Blind, after he hits a guy with his rit knife. Entangled. Fatigued. Exhausted. Knocked down, as Hamswordsman mentioned (purposely fail reflex save on grease?). Even unconcious (between -1 and 9).

Really.

Get him to a low hp. Have him mark a guy. Hit him unconscious. Coup de grace. Light cure wounds, rinse, repeat.

Win.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-29, 10:21 PM

Btw, books allowed are core, RotW and if he's feeling generous, CAdv.
I vote this is a huge part of your problem right here.

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-29, 11:45 PM

I vote this is a huge part of your problem right here.

The reason why I only use those books is because this is my first time as a DM running my own campaign. I want to limit the amount of information for now so I can get a hold of everything before we branch out into different books. Also, I'm not quite sure which books are fair and which books have races, classes, etc. which are unfair.

At this point, I've already made my campaign so it only uses those few books, and I'm going to keep it that way. Antebellum (another one of the players in my campaign) will be DMing his own campaign next, so perhaps by then we'll all have enough D&D experience to use other books freely. It's his choice.

Regarding the Stuffy Doll class, I'm tempted to kick it out of my campaign. It doesn't really fit the setting of my campaign (though, admittedly my campaign's setting isn't very descriptive :smalltongue:), and as many of you have said before, it's very one-dimensional. Besides, I'm already sticking to those few books that Antebellum mentioned, and since this is all our first D&D campaign, I feel that we should wait until we have more experience before we develop and play our own classes.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-30, 12:07 AM

The reason why I only use those books is because this is my first time as a DM running my own campaign. I want to limit the amount of information for now so I can get a hold of everything before we branch out into different books. Also, I'm not quite sure which books are fair and which books have races, classes, etc. which are unfair.
Well... the answer here is, all of them. There isn't a book printed that doesn't have something we all regret ever was printed. That's just reality.

And the fact that you're new to this and don't want to have too many different things to worry about is a very good reason, and makes sense. I certainly do not mean to cast doubt on that.

However, unfortunately, the most imbalanced book ever published for 3.5, by far, to the point where it alone does not compare well against the rest of 3.5 combined, is the Player's Handbook. The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are still three of the most powerful classes ever published. On the flip side, the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin are also still among the weakest classes every published (and especially so in Core where the Fighter doesn't even have enough feats worth taking and the Paladin doesn't have particularly good spells). This is a pretty bad combination.

I fully understand your wanting to restrict things, but if I can make one suggestion, it would be the inclusion of the Tome of Battle. Of course, for a new DM, even one more book might mean a lot of extra work. Don't do it if it's not worth it. But if you're considering even one more book, this should be that book. It seriously is that good.

You don't have to worry about your setting - the three classes in it are almost identical, in fluff, to the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin - but it works. It's a much, much better system than anything in Core.

Unlike Core melee, it doesn't have "traps". You can very easily make a level 12 Fighter whose abilities add up to "not much" because knowing how to choose your feats is very difficult. But a level 12 Warblade, the Fighter analogue from Tome of Battle, is almost impossible to make useless - you can just choose whatever sounds cool, and it will work - where with the Fighter you need to very carefully make choices.

Now, this may not overly impact your game, if you're all new - the casting classes may not know how to overpower things (though it's not hard to figure out and hard to avoid once you do; if you have a Druid, well, he'd be hard-pressed not to dominate) - but I can promise you that the Tome of Battle stuff is very good, is balanced, and will make things more fun.

Not for nothing, when I said that every book has something printed in it that is regrettable, it's true - but for Tome of Battle, it's really a very limited number of things. Iron Heart Surge needs a solid dose of common sense applied, and White Raven Tactics is exceedingly powerful in the right hands, especially for the level, but that's it. Everything else in the book is simply excellent.

Regarding the Stuffy Doll class, I'm tempted to kick it out of my campaign. It doesn't really fit the setting of my campaign (though, admittedly my campaign's setting isn't very descriptive :smalltongue:), and as many of you have said before, it's very one-dimensional. Besides, I'm already sticking to those few books that Antebellum mentioned, and since this is all our first D&D campaign, I feel that we should wait until we have more experience before we develop and play our own classes.
This is not bad advice. If you're new, class design is very difficult indeed. Hell, even if you're not, it can be. But if you haven't even played much with the existing classes, well, how can you even hope to get it right if you don't know what's out there?

Hamswordsman

2010-06-30, 12:51 AM

zenanarchist

2010-06-30, 12:58 AM

Well if more people tell me these exceptions like the combo with poisons then I can tweak around the abilities to balance him out. It would be nice if some more people actually said how to fix it but any comment helps. I can reply to comments and actually get closer to a finished product but the dm basically said no so i really dont see the point.
Wish you luck on that class and tell me when you get that class done cause I am really interested in what a finished version would look like.

Now either I just quit or play some optimized character that just hacks and slashes just like every other person in the party. Sure people get a kick out of that and want to see who has the highest AC or how much damage they can do but that just does not appeal to me at all. (if I am gonna suck, I want it with my own stuff) I just want something different and something I can truly call mine.
If someone has any idea for an interesting character idea then feel free to suggest it and maybe I can have something interesting otherwise I am probably out.

Now, now.

No need to quit.

Tweak it to hell.

Go to Fax's page Djinns page, get the guides on class creation. Create away.

I honestly think this could be good with work. But you've gotta put the work in, yes?

sofawall

2010-06-30, 01:05 AM

The enemy instantly takes 20 con damage. The enemy, assuming <20 con, will fall unconcious from con damage.

You don't fall unconscious from Con damage. You just die.

Hamswordsman

2010-06-30, 01:08 AM

Now, now.

No need to quit.

Tweak it to hell.

Go to Fax's page Djinns page, get the guides on class creation. Create away.

I honestly think this could be good with work. But you've gotta put the work in, yes?

perfectly willing to work to fix it but dm says I cant use it cause it doesnt work with his plot so i dont really see the point in putting effort into something I cant use.

Maybe some other suggestions I can at least toy with would be nice cause I do like creating and woukd rather continue. Any ideas that is not about stacking damage would be great. I just want something different that can suck but I want it to fill a niche like my stuffy doll was essentially the lab rat that blew up traps and tanked. (We dont have a rogue so I just took the punishment the trap had to offer).

jiriku

2010-06-30, 01:12 AM

OK, ham, let me throw you a few ideas. I'll stick to core + RotW and CAdv, since that's what you have to work with.

Cleric support caster w/Trickery and Travel domain. Using Diplomacy and Bluff, you can negotiate with NPCs and talk the party through many dangerous situations without a fight. With a strong Hide skill and Invisibility as a domain spell, you'll be passable at sneaking about and quietly investigating things without being noticed. In combat, you can use healing and party support spells to assist your friends, while using the odd disabling spell (hello hold person) to protect yourself if someone gets in your face. Your need never make an attack roll.

Bard. Basically like the above, but more talky and less casty. You're a superior negotiator, diplomat, and con artist, and can use your spells to persuade others, or even charm them into being your friends. In battle, you help your friends with bardic music, and can support the party with a variety of spells, although your spells aren't as good as a cleric's would be.

Wizard. It's a very difficult class to play as a beginner, but if you're up for a challenge and don't mind studying the old spellbook, you can dominate the battlefield with controlling magics like grease, web, slow, wall of x, and more. The enemy will be prone, entangled, taking half actions, and cut off from their allies, easy prey for your friends to mop them up. Battlefield control gives you limitless tactical options for disrupting the enemy, all without ever swinging a sword.

Now, I could go on, but I'm sure others will give you more ideas too. The point is, if you approach the rules with the attitude of someone who's willing to play the game, you can find many enjoyable classes to play. D&D 3.5 is a broad, broad, broad game with diverse options. There's at must be 40 published classes, hundreds of published prestige classes, and thousands of ways to combine them. Give it an honest try and you won't be disappointed.

Hamswordsman

2010-06-30, 01:28 AM

OK, ham, let me throw you a few ideas. I'll stick to core + RotW and CAdv, since that's what you have to work with.

Cleric support caster w/Trickery and Travel domain. Using Diplomacy and Bluff, you can negotiate with NPCs and talk the party through many dangerous situations without a fight. With a strong Hide skill and Invisibility as a domain skill, you'll be passable at sneaking about and quietly investigating things without being noticed. In combat, you can use healing and party support spells to assist your friends, while using the odd disabling spell (hello hold person) to protect yourself if someone gets in your face. Your need never make an attack roll.

Bard. Basically like the above, but more talky and less casty. You're a superior negotiator, diplomat, and con artist, and can use your spells to persuade others, or even charm them into being your friends. In battle, you help your friends with bardic music, and can support the party with a variety of spells, although your spells aren't as good as a cleric's would be.

Wizard. It's a very difficult class to play as a beginner, but if you're up for a challenge and don't mind studying the old spellbook, you can dominate the battlefield with controlling magics like grease, web, slow, wall of x, and more. The enemy will be prone, entangled, taking half actions, and cut off from their allies, east prey for your friends to mop them up. Battlefield control gives you limitless tactical options for disrupting the enemy, all without ever swinging a sword.

Now, I could go on, but I'm sure others will give you more ideas too. The point is, if you approach the rules with the attitude of someone who's willing to play the game, you can find many enjoyable classes to play. D&D 3.5 is a broad, broad, broad game with diverse options. There's at must be 40 published classes, hundreds of published prestige classes, and thousands of ways to combine them. Give it an honest try and you won't be disappointed.

Those are great and exactly the idea I want but I just want something that is my creation. The combinations are endless and is one of the reasons i like d&d but there is just something about calling it your own. You care about it more and the difference between my sorc and stuffy doll was that I felt so much more involved. Maybe I can take some of the ideas and create a class. Im thinking about using the general idea of the character and making a class out of them but keep the ideas coming cause the cleric and bard were exactly what i wanted!

jiriku

2010-06-30, 01:37 AM

That's a tall order, but it can be done. And it's true: making and playing your own stuff really is very satisfying. I recommend that you thoroughly read chapter 6 of the DMG, if you haven't done so already. Also, do some searches in this forum for homebrewing theory and the philiosophy in homebrewing. Read up on all the classes, and note what their strengths ad weaknesses are, and what you like and don't like about each. You'll need to pack your brain full of knowledge about how the game works and what makes a successful vs. unsuccessful character. Bring your work here if you want feedback, and be willing to listen to criticism. When I present a custom class here, I generally make 10 or 20 changes to it response to the feedback I get.

Have fun with it!

DASLAYARGH

2010-06-30, 01:51 AM

The last thing I want is for you to quit D&D! We can work together on your class (and trust me, I've been trying to help) and polish it up. Also, if you want, we can think of more ideas for classes and see what happens. The DMG suggests that we can alter an existing class a great deal to shape it to whatever needs that the players might have, so we could do that too.

Edit: And now that I think about it, this first campaign really is sort of like a "testing phase" campaign. We might as well try out everything we can, and we can see if it works or not. If or if not, then we'll have learned something and Antebellum's campaign will be that much better.

Analytica

2010-06-30, 04:51 AM

Those are great and exactly the idea I want but I just want something that is my creation. The combinations are endless and is one of the reasons i like d&d but there is just something about calling it your own. You care about it more and the difference between my sorc and stuffy doll was that I felt so much more involved. Maybe I can take some of the ideas and create a class. Im thinking about using the general idea of the character and making a class out of them but keep the ideas coming cause the cleric and bard were exactly what i wanted!

Then I would suggest that you create a homebrew variant class. Take one or two existing classes, pick some elements from each, change some others. If what you want exists in some form in existing classes, and you can achieve it by creating a new combination, the end result is likely to be more generally applicable as well as better balanced.

Suppose the idea of some form of magical acupuncture practitioner/psychic healer, maybe? Base it on the psion or society mind (available online, google), with a limited power list including anything which involves either healing or harming with your superior magical knowledge. If you would avoid psionics, how about creating a similar thing by drawing attributes from the cloistered cleric, archivist, dread necromancer or beguiler classes.

I know nothing of the magic card, but I do know of several psionic powers that concern the voodoo doll aspect. By building a class with actual manifesting ability (that is, having a selection of powers that can be activated by spending power points) rather than single, discrete abilities, the end result is a character where you may construct several different strategies and develop new strategies during the game without having to change the class abilities.

Also, I would direct you here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19530598/Psionic_Naruto_Builds

jiriku

2010-06-30, 09:02 AM

Hamswordsman

2010-06-30, 10:29 AM

+1 to Analysis' suggestion. I've been playing D&D for 18 years, and home-brewing stuff for most of that time, and STILL, after all that time, my best work is ALWAYS the stuff where I started from a published class, feat, or monster and made changes (even radical changes), rather than anything that I built from scratch.

Now, maybe this just means that I suck at making stuff, but for my $0.02, changing a published class is always easier than inventing one from scratch.

I originally had one that was based on a barbarian and it worked just fine with the abilities as a gimmick. I did not like it much because I had too little hp to actually do any skills and I was just attacking through everything. (he was much more normal with the same babs, hit dice and generally the same everything except abilities). So I thought to change it but the only real way for it was radical like this.

Basically I did base it on a class but didnt get to use any abilities so I changed it so he could do something. Obviously the changes are too radical but the old one that worked wasn't any fun. I think I am switching to a non combat class that focuses on deception.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-30, 10:38 AM

My first character was a Sorcerer con man, and he's awesome. Grab Charm Person, up that Bluff score and Charisma, and go to town. Much better if you're city-based rather than dungeon-delving, though.

As for your class, the main thing would be to give it more stuffs to do. Right now it has exactly one schtick - that's not enough to base a character around, as you discovered. You can make a class of it - probably a prestige class, it's a bit too specific for a base - but you need to think up some other things for it to do. Especially if you don't want to be just attacking things in melee, or casting normal spells while sometimes tossing out this thing.

So the first question you need to ask is, what else would you want someone with this class to do?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2010-06-30, 11:43 AM

Alright, Hamswordsman. Let's approach this problem a different way, shall we? I completely understand the desire to make something that's yours, and, if you're willing to work with me and put some serious effort in, I'll see what I can do to help. So let's begin.

*cracks knuckles, puts on homebrewing hat*

Preliminary Analysis

You're not sure if you want a Base Class, a Prestige Class, an Alternate Class Feature, a Feat, or a Spell. You think you do, but it's not really clear. Let me explain what I mean: you know what you want as an ability (the ability to deal damage to a foe in a ritual-esque manner), but you don't know enough about the rest of your concept to really determine where it falls within the game. Hence the reason you've created a one-trick class and tried to cram it into 20 levels. That doesn't really work.

A Base Class should always have options to build a variety of characters with the same beginning. I can whip up thousands of completely distinctive Wizards or Sorcerers, as well as Barbarians so different in character and playstyle that you'd be hard pressed, without looking at the sheet, to know they're both Barbarians. The Stuffy Doll does not have this variety built in it. It's incredibly focused and restricted, something a base class should not be.

If you just want a ritual aspect, I'd recommend an Alternate Class Feature, Feat, or Spell, probably tacked onto a character like a Warlock, which can be altered to have that Voodoo-esque flavor. If you want a more complex series of abilities, I'd go with a Prestige Class or Feat Chain.

If you're dead set on making a Base Class, however, you need a wider concept that a single trick. You need to, for example, make a Blood Sorcerer, or a Voodoo Mage. Something a little more broad in scope, to allow you to fill up 20 levels.

Mechanical Analysis

Dropping standard things like armor class, weapon proficiencies, and saves and/or base attack bonus is a shining example of bad design. You should be able to work a concept into a class without having to destroy the core mechanics of the game in a fashion which is, quite frankly, unnecessary. Citing mechanical weaknesses to shore up perceived roleplaying or concept benefits is, by and large, a crutch that all homebrewers should learn to avoid whenever possible.

Additionally, building a character whose sole method of attack is to be attacked is a poor idea. Monsters harm your character by attacking it: if doing so only allows you to attack back stronger, the game becomes a "watch the monster punch itself" game, where you don't really do anything and a monster is penalized for functioning as it was intended to function. That's the epitome of bad design: it negates the enemies function, while not giving you much to do yourself. Getting perks for having damage dealt to you is fine: making it the soul trick (and sole means of dealing damage) of a class is not. Can you see why?

This means you need a re-conceptualization, and you need to be willing to take that new conceptualization back to square one. Once you can give me a statement on what you want to accomplish with this homebrew, we can figure out what sort of thing you're making (Base Class, Feat, Prestige Class, and so forth), and brainstorm some ways of making it work.