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View Full Version : Using Warlock to Scare my Players [3.5]



Volos
2010-06-28, 07:26 PM
I have a group of 11th level characters who have continually smashed every monster I bring to the table. They are getting closer and closer to the climax of the current adventure, so I was planning on doing some sort of big bad encounter. I want it to be memorable and I want them to run away the first time they try to fight it. How well do you think a party will fare against this big bad? (Blackguard, Rogue, Druid, and Wizard is the party of 11th level characters)

Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Blast 5d6 + Hellfire Blast 6d6
My main battle stratagey is to have the Warlock invoke his Eldritch Glaive so that he can go toe to toe with the Blackguard while having 10ft reach. Using combat reflexes and the Hellfire Shield, he will be able to both attack with the Eldritch Glaive whenever attacks of opprotunity present themselves, and blast melee foes with the Hellfire Shield as they attack him. I would also give him use of any invocations that make him hard to kill or pin down. So, what do you think?

The Shadowmind
2010-06-28, 07:34 PM
Without a level dip of Binder the guy will pretty much kill himself, and each hellfire blast when using the shield causes a separate CON damage. With Strongheart vest(Shape soulmeld feat) is a questionable way to avoiding the damage.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 07:35 PM
Trickery! Low Blows! Stacked circumstances!
Remember the all-encompassing Challenge motto:
Two charging orcs are scarier than one charging orc, but neither are scarier than an orc cornering you on a tight hallway to keep you from reaching the orc behind him that wields the flamethrower.

Do they burn spells to keep track of what happens while exploring? If not, a couple invisible cloudkills will remind them not to focus too much on "The combat".
If monsters are dieing too easily, make judicious use of the cunning present on non-beast foes, like the aforementioned orcs.


Getting a group unprepared can be as simple as locking down the doors behind them and filling the dungeon with water. a particularly interesting contraption of that type is the Passage of Devouring Waters (http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page1287.php).

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 07:36 PM
He needs a way to heal/prevent the constitution damage all that hellfire use will have on him, otherwise he'll crumple to the first fort save the party throws at him.

(He might do that anyway.)

A Binder dip or use of the Strongheart Vest soulmeld are the typical ways, or he can just UMD lesser restoration during the fight.

Hague
2010-06-28, 07:37 PM
What other invocations does he have? Those are infinitely more important than what strength his EB is.

Well, maybe that's the schtick, he doesn't have any way of directly compensating for it, so he has to guzzle a few restoration potions in the interim while players are distracted with swarms and what not.

Edit: Also, how is Strongheart Vest not making you immune to the damage that Hellfire Blast does and thereby disallowing you from using Hellfire Blast in the first place?

Edit: Edit: Also, Strongheart vest protects you from "attacks that deal ability damage." The cost of Hellfire Blast is not an attack against you, and thus is not blocked by Strongheart Vest. It's a cost that you must pay, not paying the cost denies you the use of the ability.

Trickywiggy
2010-06-28, 07:46 PM
I like warlocks as my big bads because of the UMD, there is a lot of flexibility there.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-28, 07:50 PM
Edit: Edit: Also, Strongheart vest protects you from "attacks that deal ability damage." The cost of Hellfire Blast is not an attack against you, and thus is not blocked by Strongheart Vest. It's a cost that you must pay, not paying the cost denies you the use of the ability.

That part's just fluff. It says "Any time you would take ability damage...". Which makes this and certain other questionable ideas workable.

PId6
2010-06-28, 07:52 PM
Edit: Also, how is Strongheart Vest not making you immune to the damage that Hellfire Blast does and thereby disallowing you from using Hellfire Blast in the first place?
Hellfire Blast requires that you have a Con score and not be immune to Con damage. Strongheart Vest satisfies both requirements, since you certainly still have a Con score and it doesn't make you immune to Con damage; it simply prevents small amounts of it.


Edit: Edit: Also, Strongheart vest protects you from "attacks that deal ability damage." The cost of Hellfire Blast is not an attack against you, and thus is not blocked by Strongheart Vest. It's a cost that you must pay, not paying the cost denies you the use of the ability.
The first line explains in general what it does; it's the second line that provides the actual rules of the text. The real rules text is "Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0."

Works fine by RAW, since this doesn't make you immune to Con damage at all.

Hague
2010-06-28, 07:59 PM
And you think that doesn't skirt the intent of the ability by making yourself immune to THAT constitution damage (while not wholly immune, you are immune to that one point of damage)?

I don't think the infernal powers that you truck with to get Hellfire Blast in the first place would greatly appreciate you ripping them off... IE. Cows from Space.

Really, you're just asking for it more than wishing for a bajillion gold with a Wish.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:02 PM
Alternatively, he can always flee the scene to quaff a potion of restoration mid-battle.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-28, 08:03 PM
And you think that doesn't skirt the intent of the ability by making yourself immune to THAT constitution damage (while not wholly immune, you are immune to that one point of damage)?

I don't think the infernal powers that you truck with to get Hellfire Blast in the first place would greatly appreciate you ripping them off... IE. Cows from Space.

Really, you're just asking for it more than wishing for a bajillion gold with a Wish.

Actually, I think that "the infernal powers that you truck with" would appreciate that bit of rules lawyering. I mean, that gives them a loophole to fill in later contracts, doesn't it? And, after all, Devils are Lawful Evil.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-28, 08:05 PM
Actually, I think that "the infernal powers that you truck with" would appreciate that bit of rules lawyering. I mean, that gives them a loophole to fill in later contracts, doesn't it? And, after all, Devils are Lawful Evil.

Yeah if a devil is screwed, it strikes me that they'd be more overjoyed with the possibilities than pissed off, and wouldn't deal with the trickster till the trickster was all used up.

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:05 PM
No, it means you didn't pay them, and they are pretty damn pissed about it. You broke the contract by intentionally using an effect to protect you from their essence draining, denying them the end result of your contract, a non-lawful act.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:08 PM
You're the DM, if you don't think the Strongheart vest should work, then it doesn't Just go with the Binder dip instead.

PId6
2010-06-28, 08:10 PM
And you think that doesn't skirt the intent of the ability by making yourself immune to THAT constitution damage (while not wholly immune, you are immune to that one point of damage)?
Yes, it obviously goes against intent. Still, intent can be stupid sometimes. I see Hellfire Warlock as a necessary fix for making Warlocks good, and having the Con damage not negated makes it worse than useless. So if skirting the intent of the class helps balance things for the better, I'm willing to do so.


I don't think the infernal powers that you truck with to get Hellfire Blast in the first place would greatly appreciate you ripping them off... IE. Cows from Space.
Well, Incarnum is fluffed as coming from the soul energy of the living, dead, and those yet unborn. By using Strongheart Vest to prevent the Con damage, you can say that you are giving the souls of the unborn to the devils in place of your own. Fluff is mutable.

And besides, Lawful Evil. Devils love a good loophole.

Draz74
2010-06-28, 08:13 PM
And besides, Lawful Evil. Devils love a good loophole.

Well sure, when they're the ones abusing it.

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:14 PM
But it's not a loophole, it's you stiffing them on their contract. Strongheart vest prevents the damage by denying the damage like armor. Dex damage (for instance) from poison isn't your soul being sucked out, it's numbness. Likewise with wounding effects that deal con damage as blood loss. You aren't replacing your lost blood with unborn souls, you are blocking the damage from occurring in the first place. By denying the con damage you are reneging on your contract.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:17 PM
No, it means you didn't pay them, and they are pretty damn pissed about it. You broke the contract by intentionally using an effect to protect you from their essence draining, denying them the end result of your contract, a non-lawful act.

This is ridiculous. You don't even HAVE a contract! Besides, Hellfire doesn't "drain your energy" and pay it to the fiends who granted you the ability. It's just so powerful that it physically eats away at you. Your vitality doesn't go anywhere, it's literally burnt away by the fires of Hell.

Optimystik
2010-06-28, 08:28 PM
I'm not sure how all this discussion started anyway. Nothing about Hellfire Warlock states it has to come from Devils, any more than the base Warlock does. There isn't even an alignment restriction.


The hellfire warlocks are a secretive group of specialist warlocks who have mastered hellfire, a dangerous energy found only in the Nine Hells. By tapping into this infernal power, these characters learn to infuse their eldritch blasts and magic items that they wield with the dark power of hellfire.

It says nothing about Devils being involved.

EDIT: Swordsage'd by Killian

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:32 PM
Because the diabolical forces behind the power
of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this
granted power...

Who's granting the power, chief? No one? Not really granted then, is it?

If you don't pay the essence cost, you don't use the ability. Protecting yourself from the essence damage is NOT paying the cost, despite whatever trickery you use to prevent it.

And despite the constitution cost, this is a viable and useful prestige class. Not only do you get the option of adding up to 6 dice to your EB, you also continue to advance your EB and invocations anyway, middling BAB and stackable fire resistance and the ability to infuse UMD abilities with hellfire. Cry me a river you filthy 'strings free' diabolist. The con damage is the cost. Don't pay the cost, you don't get the ability. Nothing is free, especially not from fiends. And if you feel warlocks aren't great because they aren't horribly unbalanced like clerics, then play a cleric :P

Prodan
2010-06-28, 08:35 PM
You pay a feat if you go the Strongheart Vest route.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-28, 08:35 PM
Cry me a river you filthy 'strings free' diabolist.

Did you just call me "filthy?"



What the HELL, dude?? Way to be a huge jerkass. :smallmad:

arguskos
2010-06-28, 08:40 PM
1. This thread is comical. The Strongheart Vest argument has been done to death, and the standing CharOp opinion (IIRC) is that it functions. If you don't like it, well, ok, that's fine (me either), just don't permit it. You're not changing minds by calling people names and being rude and disrespectful. Might want to maybe calm down and walk away from the debate. :smallwink:

2. I recommend the Binder dip as well, since Naberius is awesome, Binders are awesome, and you can take Improved Binding and get more Vestige access. :smallcool:

Hague
2010-06-28, 08:40 PM
Did you just call me "filthy?"



What the HELL, dude?? Way to be a huge jerkass. :smallmad:

I'm sorry. I only meant filthy in the philosophical context of a conniving cheat, not as in you being dirty or smelly. And if anything it's only in jest. Sorry :smalltongue:

If you can get access to the Hellfire Warlock without dealing with an Infernalists, then well, I tip my hat to your DM :P

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-28, 11:07 PM
And if you feel warlocks aren't great because they aren't horribly unbalanced like clerics, then play a cleric :P

Actually, this is just a fact. A warlock is on the low end of tier 4. I don't consider clerics balanced, but in a high op group, the warlock needs some improvements.

Robert Blackletter
2010-06-28, 11:12 PM
Low teir 4? I always put them high 4 or even a low 3 if they are tricked out. Why only low 4?

PId6
2010-06-28, 11:25 PM
Low teir 4? I always put them high 4 or even a low 3 if they are tricked out. Why only low 4?
They can't deal very much damage, they have very low versatility besides UMD (since their invocations are generally fairly weak compared to similar spells and they get an extremely limited number), and their class features are overall fairly bad. Compared to a T3 like Beguiler or Dragonfire Adept, they're significantly behind, while compared to a T4 like Rogue they're still a bit worse off (much less damage, both have UMD, and spells/magic items can duplicate most of what warlock can do).

taltamir
2010-06-28, 11:46 PM
doesn't binding naberius more clearly satisfy the requirement of not preventing the con drain? aka, you take the damage, but heal it the next round.

Anyways, the whole thing is a bit of a dirty trick, I don't know if I would do it. Just straight warlock is cool enough as is.

The problem with a hellfire warlock without a binder dip is that hellfire as written is just stupid. Hellfire makes you take con damage to add a little damage to an attack, at level 12 you are going to lose 12 HP and 1 fort bonus to do LESS than 12 HP damage... IF you hit. Shield? same thing... you crumble to dust in moments. So a binder dip is a requirement for hellfire, otherwise you are better off with warlock 12.

The problem with a glaivelock, especially if you trick it out with hellfire/binder for extra damage, is that it ends up combining ridiculous DPS to one target with being fragile himself. A boss that tries to fight a party single handedly should be very tough, but not very damaging. This sort of glaivelock will go down in a round, maybe killing a PC or two in the process. a short, bloody, and unsatisfying fight.

Thus I would focus your boss less on singular damage and more on defense. For a warlock this would mean he should not be in melee, he should be flying (warlocks get infinite flight at level 6 IIRC! this is the biggest reason to be one over a more traditional mage IMAO, use it), he should use warlock dispel (he can cast those all day, and recall that they suppress magic items), and he should use warlock invisiblity. He should have protection up the wazoo, and rather then massive single target damage, I would focus on AoE damage (overall more HPs are lost, but less from each PC). He doesn't have to be a pushover either, he can blast all day, he can get quite competent blasts (chained acid blast FTW) and when things get hairy, escape.

Would be hilarious to have him spend every round "readying an action to blast the wizard with a chained acid blast the moment he begins casting a spell". Also improve his chances of survival.

But be careful with that... the various strategies I detailed might be too much for your players and end up in TPK depending on their level of optimization and tactics.

Also, keep in mind that if you give him WBL for a 12th level character you just gave a whole ton of money to the PCs... don't be afraid to give your mobs some boosting potions. Chugging a potion of bears endurance will give him 24 more HP for this battle without requiring an expensive permanent item.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 12:55 AM
Go for the Binder 1 level-dip. With Naberius bound and no Suppress Sign ability, his voice will "deepen and acquire a gravelly, growling tone." Plus, you can use the disguise self and persuasive words (command, as the spell, 1/5 rounds) abilities to mess with them. Grab some untrained skills to boot, like tumble and escape artist if he's got a high Dex.

I love the grinning hound.... :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-06-29, 04:14 AM
And you think that doesn't skirt the intent of the ability by making yourself immune to THAT constitution damage (while not wholly immune, you are immune to that one point of damage)?

You technically aren't immune - just that the con damage is healed almost as quickly as you take it. Think of it as insurance. You pay the devil 1 con, the vest reimburses you for that lost con, both sides get their payment, everyone is happy. :smallsmile:

Since the devil is paid, he shouldn't bother as to whether you are affected that by lost point of con or not. :smallamused:


Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Blast 5d6 + Hellfire Blast 6d6

Hellfire warlock improves your warlock EB as well, so it should be 6d6 EB + 6d6 HB. Throw in mortalbane for another +2d6 EB, maybe empower/maximize SLA and an eldritch blast which adds some more damage.

Just curious, when you apply empower/maximize SLA to your hellfire blast, is the extra hellfire damage augmented as well?

Mr.Moron
2010-06-29, 05:10 AM
The whole avoiding CON damage issue aside, you're talking about one 12th level character against 4 11th ones. Including a Wizard and Druid. Action economy alone means it'll be less of challenge and more of speed bump, if that. Unless these guys are seriously unoptimized and I doubt they are, given they've been steam rolling everything it's going to take a bit more to make for a encounter that's both interesting and challenging.

Certainly if he gets the drop, he might be able to take someone down with him but that'll just amount to him insta-gibbing someone, and then getting steamrolled by the survivors next round. Plain not fun.

Runestar
2010-06-29, 06:06 AM
The whole avoiding CON damage issue aside, you're talking about one 12th level character against 4 11th ones. Including a Wizard and Druid. Action economy alone means it'll be less of challenge and more of speed bump, if that. Unless these guys are seriously unoptimized and I doubt they are, given they've been steam rolling everything it's going to take a bit more to make for a encounter that's both interesting and challenging.

Its a cr12 encounter against an 11th lv party. They are supposed to be able to overcome it without too much difficulty, not result in a TPK or be pushed to their limits (that's reserved for encounters of at least +4cr higher than the party's EL).

Though he does have a point in that classed npcs tend to have quite little hp for their cr, and the warlock is taking a con hit on top of that, so he won't likely last more than a round, especially when he is rooted in place from using eldritch glaive.

What you may want to do is hit-and-run using flyby attack and maybe eldritch spear.

Hague
2010-06-29, 08:55 AM
Why not give him a Hellfire Hellhound Companion? The players will be all like "Hey, it's a hellhound, better gear up fire resistance..." And wham, Hellfire and they'll all be like "AGH! It burns!"

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 10:05 AM
Who's granting the power, chief? No one? Not really granted then, is it?

Flavor text is just that, and inconsequential to crunch. None of the requirements to enter the class say I have to make a pact of any kind.

Critical
2010-06-29, 10:20 AM
That's not scary. Such guy sniping the party from somewhere via Eldritch Spear is. :smallamused:

The Shadowmind
2010-06-29, 10:37 AM
Instead of going straight warlock/hellfire warlock, how about Wizard 4/Warlock1(Chasuble of Fellpower)/Eldritch Theurge 6 for +1d6 Eldritch blast for eldritch Theurge), and possible having a pair of Horizon goggles for eldritch spear?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 10:37 AM
That's not scary. Such guy sniping the party from somewhere via Eldritch Spear is. :smallamused:

Best done if he can do so from cover.

jiriku
2010-06-29, 10:45 AM
I have a group of 11th level characters who have continually smashed every monster I bring to the table...(Blackguard, Rogue, Druid, and Wizard is the party of 11th level characters)

Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Blast 5d6 + Hellfire Blast 6d6...So, what do you think?

A party of four strong 11th-level characters will facepwn your 12th-level warlock no matter what tactics you use. Heck, the druid and the wizard could probably do it by themselves. I recommend you give your warlock 3-5 bodyguards and push the EL of the encounter up to at least 16. Players don't run unless they're badly overmatched, and a CR 12 encounter with an opponent who is alone and outnumbered is a cakewalk.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-29, 10:55 AM
Warlock's can get the Dead walk invocation, so maybe 8 Skeleton Warbeast[MMII] Fleshraker[MMIII] could be along to help him.

Prodan
2010-06-29, 11:34 AM
Flavor text is just that, and inconsequential to crunch. None of the requirements to enter the class say I have to make a pact of any kind.

There is a language requirement.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 11:38 AM
There is a language requirement.

So you spend a skill point. Still nothing about pacts.

Prodan
2010-06-29, 11:39 AM
I think it's more implied in the crunch than outright stated, personally.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 12:24 PM
I think it's more implied in the crunch than outright stated, personally.

You can't "imply crunch." Either a pact is in the rules for the class, or it isn't.

The class doesn't even have an alignment requirement - in other words, you can be a Chaotic Good Hellfire Warlock.

This is all moot anyway - the HFW-user is the DM, so if he wants it to work then it will, and if he doesn't then it won't. It's as simple as that, really.

Thrawn183
2010-06-29, 12:28 PM
If you really want to scare your players describe him as mega-man. Then have him spend a round "charging" his eldritch blast and see if you can make them run away. (I'd just say it's maximized).

Prodan
2010-06-29, 12:28 PM
So what's the language used for?

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 12:36 PM
So what's the language used for?

Infernal is a written language as well as a spoken one (and is, in fact, the only written form of Abyssal.) Therefore, my character needs it to decipher whatever tome or grimoire contains the secrets for manipulating hellfire.

Ferrin
2010-06-29, 12:37 PM
So what's the language used for?

Talking with devils, still nothing about a pact though. :smallbiggrin:

Prodan
2010-06-29, 12:52 PM
Infernal is a written language as well as a spoken one (and is, in fact, the only written form of Abyssal.) Therefore, my character needs it to decipher whatever tome or grimoire contains the secrets for manipulating hellfire.

Infernal is also incredibly precise and great for making deals.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 12:56 PM
Infernal is also incredibly precise and great for making deals.

If that's how you want your HFW to come by his powers, that's fine. But nothing about the class invalidates my interpretation.

Paper is great for contracts too, that doesn't mean I need paper to be a Hellfire Warlock.

Hague
2010-06-29, 05:38 PM
Right. I'll agree that it's situational. However, I doubt any good powers will be look very kindly at you using the tool of the Baron of the Eighth Layer.

If the only way to get the info on how to become the class is to deal with a devil your campaign, then that's it. If everyone and their uncle can go to the public library and read about how to manipulate hellfire, then that works too.

I'd be concerned that the particular piece of fluff that you state is indicated directly in a rules quote and not in a descriptive piece or a lore section.

Would you allow a blood magus to use DR to use the blood component class feature without taking damage? (Though, we both know the rules state that this damage ignores DR)

The funny part being that if Wizards added the word 'this' to the description to read "immune to this damage" then you couldn't use this little trick at all. :smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 05:42 PM
The funny part being that if Wizards added the word 'this' to the description to read "immune to this damage" then you couldn't use this little trick at all. :smallwink:

You're still reading too much into the word "immune." You're either immune to ability damage or you aren't. Just because you can reduce ability damage by 1 point doesn't make you immune to that point, even if 1 point is all you take.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 07:07 PM
If the only way to get the info on how to become the class is to deal with a devil your campaign, then that's it. If everyone and their uncle can go to the public library and read about how to manipulate hellfire, then that works too.

Or somewhere, y'know, between those two extremes works too. The class has pretty hefty Knowledge requirements - presumably, finding out about Hellfire takes a bit of digging. As in, not a trip to the "public library" as you put it.

I'm just saying that walking up to a Devil and saying "please teach me!" is really not the only way, nor even the most reasonable way. (Nor the most sensible, but hey.)

true_shinken
2010-06-29, 09:33 PM
No, it means you didn't pay them, and they are pretty damn pissed about it. You broke the contract by intentionally using an effect to protect you from their essence draining, denying them the end result of your contract, a non-lawful act.

But you paid them. Instead of paying them with a piece of your own soul, though, you used a piece of every soul already born or still to be born ever. I believe devils would actually enjoy that.
That said, in my game, I would never let that fly. Hellfire is already pretty abusable without being free.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 10:01 PM
But you paid them. Instead of paying them with a piece of your own soul, though, you used a piece of every soul already born or still to be born ever. I believe devils would actually enjoy that.
That said, in my game, I would never let that fly. Hellfire is already pretty abusable without being free.

Well, I wouldn't call a feat or a level dip "free" exactly.

Besides, I rather like your interpretation; why wouldn't a devil enjoy some tasty incarnum? That is, if there were a pact to begin with.

Sinfonian
2010-06-29, 10:51 PM
I think of the Strongheart Vest like covering yourself with an outer layer that the Hellfire draws from, and its essence being used (in that it is preventing the damage, to which you are not becoming "immune") counts as the cost paid. As said before, whatever the source of the Con damage, its demand was not necessarily that the price come directly from YOU, just that you must pay the cost. Also, a feat is still a pretty fair price to pay for adding just damage (Honestly, how well does the cost/benefit stack against something like Craven).

Regarding the idea of a pact, I think that's a good way for it to be fluffed for your campaign. I personally prefer the idea of a group of warlocks who use Infernal to communicate due to its precision, especially with respect to the subject at hand (I imagine the language has 23 different words for 'agony' and another 29 for 'suffering'). This group then teaches its secrets to any who come willing to bear the costs.

Edit: Slight grammar changes.

Hague
2010-06-29, 11:23 PM
You're still reading too much into the word "immune." You're either immune to ability damage or you aren't. Just because you can reduce ability damage by 1 point doesn't make you immune to that point, even if 1 point is all you take.

Not really. By adding the word 'this' you are making it clearer that if you don't take the damage, you were immune to 'that' damage. For instance. Say I've got DR 2/- and you are a small creature, 10 Str with a 1d2 improved unarmed strike punch. You punch me. Without any benefits I would be immune to your attack. Not all attacks, just 'this attack.' You see what I mean?

As for strongheart vest, the incarnum doesn't go away, it just blocks the damage. If you get Strength damaged by a shadow, the shadow doesn't get temporary hit points because it didn't damage you.

jseah
2010-06-30, 01:22 AM
Not really. By adding the word 'this' you are making it clearer that if you don't take the damage, you were immune to 'that' damage.
Might as well call it ability burn then. Or make up a new kind of damage-that-is-not-damage. Goodness know they've done it often enough.

Hague
2010-06-30, 01:34 AM
Hah, yeah, I houseruled Ability Burn feats to apply solely to one ability score per 1 pp Really, horribly damaging three physical stats for 1 PP seemed a little bit like overkill.

I don't really have a problem with people healing their ability damage from Hellfire Blast and Hellfire Shield, it's just using a protective effect to prevent all of the damage is tantamount to immunity in my eyes.

Aroka
2010-06-30, 01:36 AM
(Blackguard, Rogue, Druid, and Wizard is the party of 11th level characters)

Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3

A single CR 12 opponent is an easy encounter for a full 11th-level party. CR 15-16 would be appropriately hard for a final encounter, so make that a 15th or 16th level warlock. Better yet, make it 14th level and give it EL 13-14 worth of CR 7-8 minions.

Action economy says your single warlock will be torn to shreds by a party of five (druid has a companion, yes?), especially since the rogue has three others to set up flanking, and there's a wizard to control the field (or even just blast). If the party is able to attack the warlock all together, they'll end the fight on the first round.

This is why you never use single monster encounters, unless the monster is just so ridiculously tough it can take multiple rounds of beatings, and is capable of putting PCs out of commission fast, or of controlling the field so heavily that PCs have to struggle to even get to attack it.

You can probably challenge them with just a 15th or 16th-level warlock, but you'll have to play incredibly unfair, using flight and stealth and terrain to make sure they can't fight back, and that's just not a lot of fun (unless the players enjoy horror scenarios where they're hunted and can't fight back, but that's hardly the default for D&D).

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 07:52 AM
As for strongheart vest, the incarnum doesn't go away, it just blocks the damage.

Of course it doesn't. There is so much soul energy packed into a single meld that the tiny bit siphoned off by one use of Hellfire is instantly replenished. It would be like trying to empty a river with a coffee mug.

Lans
2010-06-30, 10:46 AM
If they lack a way to deal with invisibility then just have him be invisible and summon crap at them.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 10:55 AM
If they lack a way to deal with invisibility then just have him be invisible and summon crap at them.

If they're level 11 and can't counter invisibility they deserve to get flattened :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 10:57 AM
I'm still of the opinion that the warlock will be much scarier if he is actually smart and prepared instead of blasting harder.
Traps. Minions. Trickery!

The Shadowmind
2010-06-30, 11:12 AM
If you ignore hellfire warlock, and instead go straight warlock12, then the warlock has the Imbue Item ability, meaning item creation. Pick these 3 feats:Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Construct. Then look through here:Mechonomicon (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=177.0). Effigy Creature's with the right template stacking can be tough encounters.

VirOath
2010-06-30, 01:43 PM
And you think that doesn't skirt the intent of the ability by making yourself immune to THAT constitution damage (while not wholly immune, you are immune to that one point of damage)?

I don't think the infernal powers that you truck with to get Hellfire Blast in the first place would greatly appreciate you ripping them off... IE. Cows from Space.

Really, you're just asking for it more than wishing for a bajillion gold with a Wish.

It can only be said once. 0 damage is not immune.

And the price for Hellfire Blast isn't the payment to demons, it's the negative effects of Hellfire damaging and consuming your body. Reducing that damage to 0 isn't immune because methods can be thought up and used to modify that damage.

Such as researching a spell what would augment any ability damage that would be taken, like adding a flat value or doubling the damage. This would actually be something useful to anyone that could cast spells and use poisons.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-30, 05:33 PM
Not really. By adding the word 'this' you are making it clearer that if you don't take the damage, you were immune to 'that' damage. For instance. Say I've got DR 2/- and you are a small creature, 10 Str with a 1d2 improved unarmed strike punch. You punch me. Without any benefits I would be immune to your attack. Not all attacks, just 'this attack.' You see what I mean?

NO NO NO NO NO

Immunity is a specific game term. Having DR 2 doesn't make you "immune" to low levels of damage. You won't take the damage, but you aren't immune to it. I said it before: You are either immune to a certain form of damage or you aren't! There're no partial immunities. Having fire resistance 10 doesn't make you immune to fire damage of 10 points or less. You just resist the damage. How many times do I have to say this?? :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-30, 08:58 PM
Has everyone forgotten that this is an NPC we're talking about?

Forget the level dip for Binder. Just write the NPC in such a way that he alone can suffer hellfire without the CON damage.

People this isn't a PC that he wants to trick out. It's just an NPC the DM wants to use to scare his PCs, the same rules do not apply.

Personally if you want to scare the PCs you should make him approximately 3 levels higher than the actual party.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:21 PM
Has everyone forgotten that this is an NPC we're talking about?

Forget the level dip for Binder. Just write the NPC in such a way that he alone can suffer hellfire without the CON damage.

People this isn't a PC that he wants to trick out. It's just an NPC the DM wants to use to scare his PCs, the same rules do not apply.

Personally if you want to scare the PCs you should make him approximately 3 levels higher than the actual party.

And where's the consistency in that? If players' characters bother to do research on what the hell that warlock was, what will you do, tell them you bent rules just so he could be menacing? That'd destroy the feeling of the campaign for me. Better keep them believable.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-06-30, 09:41 PM
And where's the consistency in that? If players' characters bother to do research on what the hell that warlock was, what will you do, tell them you bent rules just so he could be menacing? That'd destroy the feeling of the campaign for me. Better keep them believable.

Do you ever create monsters for your PCs?

The DM could give any number of fluff reasons for why the NPC is able to resist the Con damage. And he could adjust the CR appropriately if needed.

Hell, give him a homebrewed MAGIC AMULET if you have to.

Another_Poet
2010-06-30, 09:45 PM
I hope someone has already said this but...

You need to give him some minions or you'll need a spatula to scrape him off the battle mat.

gdiddy
2010-06-30, 10:01 PM
Hmm...

Honestly, minions, minions, minions.

The Warlock should just sit in back with the Nightmare terrain invocation renewing every couple rounds and readying actions to greater dispell the magic users.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 10:05 PM
Do you ever create monsters for your PCs?

The DM could give any number of fluff reasons for why the NPC is able to resist the Con damage. And he could adjust the CR appropriately if needed.

Hell, give him a homebrewed MAGIC AMULET if you have to.

it's one thing to create a new setup. Another is to make it arbitrarily so the pcs have something to fight. The PCs don't have to want to pay the price to get those toys, but they should be able to see the price.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-06-30, 10:53 PM
I'm not sure I know what you are saying.

What are you saying?

You can attach a sell price to an amulet. You can adjust the CR on an enemy. You can make it all by the books. Homebrewing is about creating all aspects of a thing, not just the abilities.

If you play in a game where ever item is in the published books and ever monster has a stat block you can look up, I feel for you.

deuxhero
2010-06-30, 11:02 PM
No no no no no! You're doing it wrong!

Don't throw a low tier character at their ECL at them if they have been soundly defeating things at their ECL (and remember its 1/4 of your stuff, not all of it), esp in a straight fight. Either have the warlock be higher level, or stack the field to his advantage. Fire Eldritch Spears at the players from cover, then Flee the Scenes away, gradually tink away at their recourse (and patience) before attacking.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 04:59 AM
I'm not sure I know what you are saying.

What are you saying?

You can attach a sell price to an amulet. You can adjust the CR on an enemy. You can make it all by the books. Homebrewing is about creating all aspects of a thing, not just the abilities.

If you play in a game where ever item is in the published books and ever monster has a stat block you can look up, I feel for you.

I'm saying "make him immune just because you can" breaks consistency. Something lets him perform whatever he does.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 08:36 AM
Hell, give him a homebrewed MAGIC AMULET if you have to.

The trouble with custom items - the PCs have a chance to pry them off his corpse.

Whereas Incarnum pretty much goes when he does.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-01, 12:30 PM
I have a group of 11th level characters who have continually smashed every monster I bring to the table. They are getting closer and closer to the climax of the current adventure, so I was planning on doing some sort of big bad encounter. I want it to be memorable and I want them to run away the first time they try to fight it. How well do you think a party will fare against this big bad? (Blackguard, Rogue, Druid, and Wizard is the party of 11th level characters)

Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Blast 5d6 + Hellfire Blast 6d6
My main battle stratagey is to have the Warlock invoke his Eldritch Glaive so that he can go toe to toe with the Blackguard while having 10ft reach. Using combat reflexes and the Hellfire Shield, he will be able to both attack with the Eldritch Glaive whenever attacks of opprotunity present themselves, and blast melee foes with the Hellfire Shield as they attack him. I would also give him use of any invocations that make him hard to kill or pin down. So, what do you think?

That's a good start, but one Warlock alone will get trashed by the dynamics of action economy before they have a chance to really threaten the party. Eldritch Glaive with Combat Reflexes is a good and fun idea, but he's playing into the hands of at least 3 of the four party members who do melee very well.

My suggestion: You need not one warlock, but 4 total of them, enough to match the party. 1 or 2 of them will be specialized Glaivelocks, while the rest are using Eldritch Chain to harrass the entire party and keep things exciting for the Wizard.

Be sure and remember to equip at least two of them with Voracious Dispelling and Flee the Scene (Use Quicken SLA if you can!) and use those invocations whenever appropriate. Remember that unless they're using Eldritch Glaive, a Warlock can fight and move in the same round, so try not to let the melee lock them down into easy flanking positions.

Since warlocks can usually fly, try choosing a battleground that gives this ability an advantage. Lots of open space, little cover, and squares with hidden pit traps or other nasty effects. Remember Repelling Blast Essense can be fun if a little complicated to field, and works great if there's a lot of bad stuff to force people into.

If you really want Hellfire used a lot, but don't want to use the Binder/Strongheart rules cheats (yes, I know they are RAW legal) then put a large magic quartz crystal in the center of the battlefield that has the effect of regenerating 1 point Constitution per round for everyone in a 200' radius. The players can't really use it because it weighs a ton (literally) and requires high level Eldritch energy ritually channeled into it on a daily basis or it stops working forever.

If I had to suggest a particular build, I would say make all of the warlocks Pixies with the Darkstalker feat, and spread the Maximize SLA, Empower SLA, and Quicken SLA feats around liberally. It would help with tr8apbuilding, as Pixies get permanent illusion spell-like's 1/day, so it's easy for them to disguise pitfalls and traps, and they can do any villain monologuing via an illusion as opposed to being their themselves to take the brunt of the PC's surprise attack. Pixies are also incredibly suited to being warlocks, as they have Flight and Greater invisibility built in, massive DEX and CHA bonuses, and the penalty they take to STR doesn't hurt their attack at all since they have Weapon Finesse and touch attacks are light weapons.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-07-01, 02:18 PM
I'm saying "make him immune just because you can" breaks consistency. Something lets him perform whatever he does.

Well yes. If your players ask why he negates his con damage and you say "cause I say so", you are obviously going to get some much deserved lashback...

A reason that doesn't involve hours of silly min-maxing is not hard to come up with...