PDA

View Full Version : Subtle clues



valadil
2010-06-28, 10:57 PM
As I'm confronted with a more intelligent group of PCs than I'm used to, I find myself needing to use more and more subtlety when I give them information. They figured out just about everything of interest that happened in the first 5 sessions. Since then I've tried making my clues more and more cryptic, and I think I've reached the point where they don't even realize I'm giving out clues.

Still, I'm stuck on one problem. Spoiled in case the players read these boards...


Doppelgangers.

I know I've posted before about their methods. I think I've got that part down. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to drop hints without blowing their cover.

Anyway, there's one obvious doppelganger and on less than obvious one. The less than obvious one has replaced a PC's ally from his backstory. I introduced him last session. I'm really looking forward to revealing him as a doppelganger, but I'd like to have some evidence to point to so I can say "you had these clues, not my fault you didn't figure out what was up."

Direct appearance and behavior clues are too obvious. So-and-so looks taller or has a strange accent will absolutely tip off the players. Did I mention I have a doppelganger PC? It means that he's always thinking in terms of killing and replacing people. I have been making perception checks for the players, but I've been doing it in secret outside of game. If they ever make one, I'll probably give them a more obvious clue.

The doppelganger PC is problematic. Whenever the group interrogates someone he makes sure to check for secret handshakes and codewords. Since he's got the same training as the opposing doppelganger, I figure the other one knows all those tricks too. I actually feel a little dirty making that assumption, but it makes sense and I can't justify the PC being the only one who knows about secret handshakes.

The best idea I've got so far is to give him too much information. Let something slip that he shouldn't know. Unfortunately I don't know what that is or how I can plan for it - it would probably have to be improvised.


So any ideas for subtle clues I can use? I'm so used to bludgeoning my players with information until they clue in that making things non-obvious is something I have no idea how to do. Even if you don't have anything relevant to my spoilered situation, I'd be interested in hearing how you outfoxed your PCs with information.

CubeB
2010-06-28, 11:18 PM
Spoilered for your players' sake.

What I would do, next time they're talking with the doppleganger, is to make secret wisdom checks for the relevant PCs.

If they succeed, then they pick up on something a bit off. Nothing they can put their fingers on. Perhaps the Dopple's own quirks are manifesting. Or perhaps the NPC's natural quirks aren't.

For example, perhaps the NPC liked to turn his ring like a worry stone. Or perhaps the Dopple is always touching his face.

A wisdom check will give the players the inkling something is wrong, but it won't give everything away.

valadil
2010-06-29, 09:09 AM
Spoilered for your players' sake.

What I would do, next time they're talking with the doppleganger, is to make secret wisdom checks for the relevant PCs.

If they succeed, then they pick up on something a bit off. Nothing they can put their fingers on. Perhaps the Dopple's own quirks are manifesting. Or perhaps the NPC's natural quirks aren't.

For example, perhaps the NPC liked to turn his ring like a worry stone. Or perhaps the Dopple is always touching his face.

A wisdom check will give the players the inkling something is wrong, but it won't give everything away.



TY, but I think they'd still figure this out. They're actively looking for doppelgangers right now. If there's something off about someone, doppelganger will be their first guess.

I like the idea of omitting the NPC's natural quirks. I screwed up and can't do that though. This NPC came from a PC's backstory and had 5 minutes of face time during the first session. 4 months later and he's been replaced. I didn't have a chance to establish any quirks. Had I planned ahead more, this would have been perfect, but alas it's too damn late.

Telonius
2010-06-29, 10:01 AM
How closely does this NPC need to interact with the PCs? If he needs to be available but not close enough for interaction, make it so that the players (for some reason) can't actually physically see him. Maybe he tells them he's paranoid about doppelgangers himself. Maybe some enemy is trying to cause political difficulties and if they're seen talking together it blows up in their face. Or maybe he hires a go-between or messenger to deal with the PCs. The go-between reports a bunch of odd behavior.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 10:05 AM
Whenever you are describing something that includes a clue, do not detail only the clue. It's extremely obvious when the dm says "you enter a room with various shelves and a desk with some papers and a long blue quill on the ink flask" that the quill is something hot. Instead, try
"You enter a room with various dusty shelves, books scattered everywhere, and a desk with a broken leg where lie a dark green ink glass holding a long blue quill, and many yellowed scrolls and sheets of paper."

Solophoenix
2010-06-29, 11:08 AM
Whenever you are describing something that includes a clue, do not detail only the clue. It's extremely obvious when the dm says "you enter a room with various shelves and a desk with some papers and a long blue quill on the ink flask" that the quill is something hot. Instead, try
"You enter a room with various dusty shelves, books scattered everywhere, and a desk with a broken leg where lie a dark green ink glass holding a long blue quill, and many yellowed scrolls and sheets of paper."

Or you know, you could link (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/YUMiX2JPVjHIJ6h5VlD.html) to Rich's article rather than just stealing his example and changing the colour of the quill :smalltongue:

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 11:12 AM
Or you know, you could link (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/YUMiX2JPVjHIJ6h5VlD.html) to Rich's article rather than just stealing his example and changing the colour of the quill :smalltongue:
I'm pulling it from memory. I didn't bother searching WHERE I saw it.

altruist
2010-06-29, 01:16 PM
I'm pulling it from memory. I didn't bother searching WHERE I saw it.

Yeah, accrediting your sources is SUCH a hassle.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 02:42 PM
Yeah, accrediting your sources is SUCH a hassle.

Is that tone called for? I hardly think SA was being malicious. I remember things without remembering exactly where they came from all the time; it's not like he was writing an APA-style essay or anything.

CubeB
2010-06-29, 03:35 PM
Yeah. Bury the clue under a bunch of other non important fluff.

You could always make it so that they think someone else is a doppleganger. Have them be prepared for /a/ Dopple. But don't let them figure out who the dopple actually is. Misdirection is a good strategy, most of the time.

Thajocoth
2010-06-29, 04:09 PM
Whenever you are describing something that includes a clue, do not detail only the clue. It's extremely obvious when the dm says "you enter a room with various shelves and a desk with some papers and a long blue quill on the ink flask" that the quill is something hot. Instead, try
"You enter a room with various dusty shelves, books scattered everywhere, and a desk with a broken leg where lie a dark green ink glass holding a long blue quill, and many yellowed scrolls and sheets of paper."

I will second this. Giving a lot of detail in general helps to bury clues. I recommend giving the detail even when there's no clue, otherwise they'll figure out that there's a clue whenever you give details.


Is that tone called for? I hardly think SA was being malicious. I remember things without remembering exactly where they came from all the time; it's not like he was writing an APA-style essay or anything.

I will also second this. I almost never remember where I've gotten my information from, and I always forget half the details. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not remembering everything, and for the simplicity of posting, it's a lot easier to just say something than to do a whole lot of searching to find a relevant link.

Even if I DO remember the source of something, I won't link or reference it unless I need to to back up what I'm saying... As it's a post, not a term paper. And if I need to back up something I'm saying, I'm in a thread that I, personally, shouldn't be in to begin with.

Lapak
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Some suggestions for your specific situation: (and by the way, most DMs would be happy to have your problem rather than the more usual 'I left fifteen different clues and they were smashed or ignored)
They're already looking for doppelgangers. You want the clue to be that the NPC knows too much. The solution is that he will be the thing that suggests (but does not say) that a doppelganger is active.

Have the NPC mention that [other NPC important in your scenario] has been acting odd lately. Forgetting things he should remember, leaving his favorite foods untouched. He'll suggest that maybe the [other NPC] is sick or stressed somehow, but your players may jump to 'He's a doppel!'

The clue, of course, is that the NPC knows exactly how to suggest that a doppelganger is in action. If they observe [other NPC] themselves before acting, they can see that the supposed behaviors don't exist, and can potentially twig to the fact that their source is suspect. (You should certainly give them a chance to do this.) If they don't, then you get your reveal when they err because they think that the other guy is a doppel and find out they've been lead by the nose.

valadil
2010-06-29, 05:54 PM
Some suggestions for your specific situation: (and by the way, most DMs would be happy to have your problem rather than the more usual 'I left fifteen different clues and they were smashed or ignored)


Believe me, I am happy with it. This is the best game I've ever run and I blame the group of players for that. I'm stressing out about this because I want to challenge them and it's the first time I've had trouble doing so.



They're already looking for doppelgangers. You want the clue to be that the NPC knows too much. The solution is that he will be the thing that suggests (but does not say) that a doppelganger is active.

Have the NPC mention that [other NPC important in your scenario] has been acting odd lately. Forgetting things he should remember, leaving his favorite foods untouched. He'll suggest that maybe the [other NPC] is sick or stressed somehow, but your players may jump to 'He's a doppel!'

The clue, of course, is that the NPC knows exactly how to suggest that a doppelganger is in action. If they observe [other NPC] themselves before acting, they can see that the supposed behaviors don't exist, and can potentially twig to the fact that their source is suspect. (You should certainly give them a chance to do this.) If they don't, then you get your reveal when they err because they think that the other guy is a doppel and find out they've been lead by the nose.

I like the idea of having the doppel accuse someone else. I'm hesitant because I don't think he'd be pushing out the idea of doppelgangers. He'd rather just not have the PCs thinking about them. However if he discovers that they've already go their suspicions, he'll absolutely point elsewhere.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-29, 06:04 PM
I like the idea of having the doppel accuse someone else. I'm hesitant because I don't think he'd be pushing out the idea of doppelgangers. He'd rather just not have the PCs thinking about them. However if he discovers that they've already go their suspicions, he'll absolutely point elsewhere.

I feel as though the sentiment was lost between the posts. If I saw one of my closest friends acting out of character in notable ways, I would probably tell my other friends in an effort to figure out if he was sick, or if something bad happened to him. I'm not guessing this friend is a doppel, and I'm not telling other people he is. I'm just genuinely concerned for him. If you get the doppel to act like he's genuinely concerned for the [other NPC acting out of character], your players will jump on that as a clue even though you, and by proxy the dopple, never suggested it was.

742
2010-06-29, 08:05 PM
the best time to do it would be during character introduction, maybe a new injury or something with a story behind it thats just a hair OOC for that character.

valadil
2010-06-29, 08:06 PM
I'm dropping the spoilers and you can too. If my group has read this far, they're doing it on purpose and probably clicking on the spoiler tags.


I feel as though the sentiment was lost between the posts. If I saw one of my closest friends acting out of character in notable ways, I would probably tell my other friends in an effort to figure out if he was sick, or if something bad happened to him. I'm not guessing this friend is a doppel, and I'm not telling other people he is. I'm just genuinely concerned for him. If you get the doppel to act like he's genuinely concerned for the [other NPC acting out of character], your players will jump on that as a clue even though you, and by proxy the dopple, never suggested it was.

So, my first thought was to agree but disagree. My PCs are heartless bastards and are more likely to accuse someone than take pity.

However there's a magical disease floating around. The NPC ally was almost certainly exposed to it. Because this disease is already established, it won't be coming out of left field if he comes down with the symptoms (although I should throw in some more sick people inside the city, just as a reminder). And the doppelganger comes from the same source that was distributing this disease. So he's gonna know something about it. This is where he'll slip and release more information than he should have, but the players will just be grateful for some new information on the puzzle that's been plaguing them since the first session.

This is perfect, and I would not have come up with it without y'all's help. Thanks!