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View Full Version : Why am I told edritch spear sucks?



taltamir
2010-06-29, 12:43 AM
Eldritch spear lets warlock snipe from a distance, all day long.
This synergizes well with them getting unlimited flight at level 6. (and unlimited invisibility soon after).

Snipe a few times, turn invisible, fly to a different bearing. Rinse and repeat.

So... why claims of suck?

arguskos
2010-06-29, 12:53 AM
There's just better things you could be doing with your time, like Eldritch Glaive. At low levels for a sniper-based Warlock (perhaps edging into Scout?) it's ok.

eg. It's not bad, there are just significantly better options.

Hunter Noventa
2010-06-29, 12:57 AM
The default range for Eldritch Blast is also 60ft. I've rarely been in a combat where the distances are much more than that, that's my own experiene mind you, so your mileage may vary.

But when i did play a Warlock, I never had much of a problem getting into that range at all. And if you can fly and be invisible, why do you need to be further away?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-29, 01:01 AM
Building a sniping-based character is somewhat risky if you are likely to find yourself in cramped quarters (like the typical dungeon).

hangedman1984
2010-06-29, 01:04 AM
I actually rather enjoy eldritch spear at lower levels, I do tend to trade it out later on though

PId6
2010-06-29, 01:08 AM
Sniping is just a tactic that isn't all that great except in specific circumstances. Most battles take place in cramped places like dungeons or cities, so it's hard to make full use of the range of Eldritch Spear. Besides that, party tactics can be bad for it as well, since even if you're far away and sniping, that just means that the other party members are taking the brunt of the damage. Ultimately, you're better off using a more damaging tactic like Eldritch Glaive and helping your teammates more rather than staying far away dealing minor damage and letting your allies take the hits. Finally, you have to see your enemies to snipe them, and with distance penalties, that can be difficult for a class that doesn't get Spot as a class skill.

That said, I still wouldn't say Eldritch Spear sucks. It's a useful tool for certain circumstances, and I usually pick it up if I've room.

taltamir
2010-06-29, 01:11 AM
Sniping is just a tactic that isn't all that great except in specific circumstances. Most battles take place in cramped places like dungeons or cities, so it's hard to make full use of the range of Eldritch Spear. Besides that, party tactics can be bad for it as well, since even if you're far away and sniping, that just means that the other party members are taking the brunt of the damage. Ultimately, you're better off using a more damaging tactic like Eldritch Glaive and helping your teammates more rather than staying far away dealing minor damage and letting your allies take the hits. Finally, you have to see your enemies to snipe them, and with distance penalties, that can be difficult for a class that doesn't get Spot as a class skill.

That said, I still wouldn't say Eldritch Spear sucks. It's a useful tool for certain circumstances, and I usually pick it up if I've room.

ok, those are some very good reasons, particularly:
1. Not a tactic conductive to working with a party.
2. You are too far away to spot the target.

Hague
2010-06-29, 01:37 AM
Eldritch Spear rocks with Eldritch Theurge. Spellblast + Eldritch Spear? Yes, please.

True Strike + Cone of Cold + Maximized SLA Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Spear Oh yes, indeed, I did just deal maximized damage from my cone of cold, at over 250ft, from the back of the enemy group, 90 foot in the air, for a maximized 7d6 and 15d6 thanks for asking.

The same principle applies with lots of low level spells: Hypnotism at 250 ft? Sure. Glitterdust? Grease? Sure thing.

How about this for Greatreach Blast:

Imprisonment + Eldritch Spear. Yeah, that's right, save or die at over 250 feet.

Heck, even the humble repelling blast + eldritch spear will let you knock some silly goon off a rooftop. The fact of the matter is that Eldritch spear is nice because it's got great range with no range increment and it's a freakin' touch attack.

Fact is, if you are fighting a flying enemy in an open area, Eldritch Spear is the way to go. It's practically impossible for a huge or larger dragon to dodge your eldritch spear. Add Ghoul Touch to a Greatreach Blast and watch the bastard hit the dirt at 200 ft up for 20d6 on a failed save.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-29, 01:49 AM
Another thing you can do is attach an antimagic field to the spear. Say bye bye to the BBEG.

At least I think you can attach antimagic to the spear with Theurge. I don't think I would though. It's almost guarenteed to make the DM mad.

taltamir
2010-06-29, 01:52 AM
Eldritch Spear rocks with Eldritch Theurge. Spellblast + Eldritch Spear? Yes, please.

True Strike + Cone of Cold + Maximized SLA Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Spear Oh yes, indeed, I did just deal maximized damage from my cone of cold, at over 250ft, from the back of the enemy group, 90 foot in the air, for a maximized 7d6 and 15d6 thanks for asking.

The same principle applies with lots of low level spells: Hypnotism at 250 ft? Sure. Glitterdust? Grease? Sure thing.

How about this for Greatreach Blast:

Imprisonment + Eldritch Spear. Yeah, that's right, save or die at over 250 feet.

Heck, even the humble repelling blast + eldritch spear will let you knock some silly goon off a rooftop. The fact of the matter is that Eldritch spear is nice because it's got great range with no range increment and it's a freakin' touch attack.

Fact is, if you are fighting a flying enemy in an open area, Eldritch Spear is the way to go. It's practically impossible for a huge or larger dragon to dodge your eldritch spear. Add Ghoul Touch to a Greatreach Blast and watch the bastard hit the dirt at 200 ft up for 20d6 on a failed save.

how are you applying Eldritch spear to spells? how are you combining Eldritch cone with Eldritch spear?

Shpadoinkle
2010-06-29, 02:40 AM
There's just better things you could be doing with your time, like Eldritch Glaive. At low levels for a sniper-based Warlock (perhaps edging into Scout?) it's ok.

eg. It's not bad, there are just significantly better options.

I keep hearing people talking about Eldritch Glaive but I can't find it for the life of me. Where is it?

PId6
2010-06-29, 02:40 AM
I keep hearing people talking about Eldritch Glaive but I can't find it for the life of me. Where is it?
Dragon Magic

Prime32
2010-06-29, 03:21 AM
how are you applying Eldritch spear to spells? how are you combining Eldritch cone with Eldritch spear?See first line.

Eldritch Spear rocks with Eldritch Theurge.

magic9mushroom
2010-06-29, 03:30 AM
To specify, Eldritch Theurges get the ability to add spell effects to their Eldritch Blasts.

With the capstone, Greatreach Blast, you can "throw" effects so they emanate from the target. This is ridiculously powerful with Antimagic Field, since it emanates from THEM and therefore they can't get out of it.

Sliver
2010-06-29, 04:22 AM
Where is that awesome Eldritch Theurges from? Dragon Magic as well?

Runestar
2010-06-29, 04:32 AM
Where is that awesome Eldritch Theurges from? Dragon Magic as well?

Complete mage.

Yep, clever wotc marketing to get you to buy as many different splatbooks as possible. :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2010-06-29, 05:34 AM
I'd find it incredibly hilarious if a player build his entire character around Eldritch Spear only to find out he can't make a Spot checks at that distance thanks to the massive range penalty.

...okay, it'd be tragic, but still hilarious.

Greenish
2010-06-29, 06:02 AM
Fact is, if you are fighting a flying enemy in an open area, Eldritch Spear is the way to go. It's practically impossible for a huge or larger dragon to dodge your eldritch spear. Add Ghoul Touch to a Greatreach Blast and watch the bastard hit the dirt at 200 ft up for 20d6 on a failed save.Dragons are immune to paralysis effects.

Also, Scintillating Scales. A dragon who leaves home without it is asking to get screwed over by touch attacks.

Prime32
2010-06-29, 06:19 AM
I think you mean shivering touch, the spell which can drop a Dragon's Dex to 0 in one hit.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 06:31 AM
I'd find it incredibly hilarious if a player build his entire character around Eldritch Spear only to find out he can't make a Spot checks at that distance thanks to the massive range penalty.

...okay, it'd be tragic, but still hilarious.

Remember, you cannot see the sun. The distance penalty is too great. :smallwink:

Prime32
2010-06-29, 06:40 AM
Remember, you cannot see the sun. The distance penalty is too great. :smallwink:On the other hand, if you can see the sun you can use line-of-sight abilities on it. Like Distant Shot. With thrown weapons. The weapons are kobolds.

Ashiel
2010-06-29, 06:54 AM
The sun is visible due to a combination of an impressive size penalty to stealth based checks, and its lack of concealment or cover. Notice that when the planet or moon interjects between you and the sun, the sun apparently vanishes.

This is obviously do the range penalties to your spot checks, now that it can actually make a hide check! :smallbiggrin:

Hague
2010-06-29, 08:53 AM
If I'm scouting a place while flying and invisible, I'll have plenty of time to take a 20 on a spot check from 250 ft away. That and there's always clairvoyance.

An Eldritch Theurge can apply area spells with Spellblast at level 4. At level 10, they get Greatreach Blast which lets them apply touch spells. These are both Essence invocations.

taltamir
2010-06-29, 09:05 AM
To specify, Eldritch Theurges get the ability to add spell effects to their Eldritch Blasts.

With the capstone, Greatreach Blast, you can "throw" effects so they emanate from the target. This is ridiculously powerful with Antimagic Field, since it emanates from THEM and therefore they can't get out of it.

now that is just plain mean :P


The sun is visible due to a combination of an impressive size penalty to stealth based checks, and its lack of concealment or cover. Notice that when the planet or moon interjects between you and the sun, the sun apparently vanishes.

This is obviously do the range penalties to your spot checks, now that it can actually make a hide check! :smallbiggrin:

this is one of the funniest thing I have ever read. You win a cookie... no, an internet... gasp... an internet cookie!

AslanCross
2010-06-29, 09:28 AM
The sun is visible due to a combination of an impressive size penalty to stealth based checks, and its lack of concealment or cover. Notice that when the planet or moon interjects between you and the sun, the sun apparently vanishes.

This is obviously do the range penalties to your spot checks, now that it can actually make a hide check! :smallbiggrin:

Not to mention an impressive -5 penalty to Hide checks thanks to having technically 0 Dex.

Ashiel
2010-06-29, 09:47 AM
this is one of the funniest thing I have ever read. You win a cookie... no, an internet... gasp... an internet cookie!

Yay! Internet cookie! My first ever! :smallbiggrin:


Not to mention an impressive -5 penalty to Hide checks thanks to having technically 0 Dex.

Oh yes, how could we forget!? :smallwink:

Furnok
2010-06-29, 01:26 PM
I have a warlock in a campaign where my character has an 8 STR so she stays out of melee and I use Eldritch Spear all the time. Also my DM ruled that to cast the glaive it would provoke an attack of opportunity and I wouldn’t be able to use it till next round. So for me the choice was somewhat easier.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-29, 01:28 PM
I am currently in two games with a Warlock character. In one, I took Eldritch Spear and never regretted it. In another, I didn't take it, and regretted it at some point.

subject42
2010-06-29, 01:44 PM
The value of eldritch spear is directly proportional to how much initiative your DM lets you take. If the game is highly interactive and you can plan and get the drop on people, it's great. If he runs the game like a video game, complete with unskippable cut scenes, it's not so great.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 01:47 PM
The value of eldritch spear is directly proportional to how much initiative your DM lets you take. If the game is highly interactive and you can plan and get the drop on people, it's great. If he runs the game like a video game, complete with unskippable cut scenes, it's not so great.

Actually, you don't have to get the drop on someone for ES to be useful. For example, you might have a bad guy throw on Expeditious Retreat and hotfoot it out of there - a long-range weapon is useful to stop him in his tracks, especially one that can slow or blind him.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 02:11 PM
Also my DM ruled that to cast the glaive it would provoke an attack of opportunity and I wouldn’t be able to use it till next round. So for me the choice was somewhat easier.

Wow, that sure is a horrible house rule! Did he actually read it first? :smalleek::smallsigh:

The Shadowmind
2010-06-29, 02:27 PM
Wow, that sure is a horrible house rule! Did he actually read it first? :smalleek::smallsigh:

Well it does provoke an Aoo if you don't cast on the defensive, but it is a reach weapon and you can take a 5-ft step. But, yeah the other ruling is harsh.

JerichoPenumbra
2010-06-29, 02:30 PM
To specify, Eldritch Theurges get the ability to add spell effects to their Eldritch Blasts.

With the capstone, Greatreach Blast, you can "throw" effects so they emanate from the target. This is ridiculously powerful with Antimagic Field, since it emanates from THEM and therefore they can't get out of it.

I thought that was Spellblast the ability they get at 3rd level. I thought that the capstone Greatreach Blast was where you could use eldritch blasts to throw touch range spells at people.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-29, 02:35 PM
I thought that was Spellblast the ability they get at 3rd level. I thought that the capstone Greatreach Blast was where you could use eldritch blasts to throw touch range spells at people.

It is. Spellblast is the 3rd level one.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 02:36 PM
It doesn't let you anchor the spell to the target, though.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-29, 04:38 PM
Not to mention an impressive -5 penalty to Hide checks thanks to having technically 0 Dex.

Don't forget the movement speed.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
Revolving at 900 miles an hour
It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned
A sun that is the source of all our power
The sun and you and me
And all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm at 40,000 miles an hour
Of a galaxy we call the Milky Way.

jiriku
2010-06-29, 05:00 PM
Eldritch spear is great, man. I mean really, how many casters/archer enemies are going to try to shoot at you from 95+ feet away? How many times do you flee the scene and want to get the heck out of Dodge, but want to be able to fire off your EB from range next round? How often do you use fell flight (especially outdoors) to get high enough off the ground that people can't effectively target you with thrown weapons or spells that have a range of Close? In dungeons and underground, how often do you have big set-piece battles in giant caverns that are very long, very wide, or very tall?

If you're like me, you'll encounter at least one of these situations every game session. You might even run into them repeatedly. Eldritch spear is a very solid blast shape.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 05:04 PM
Currently in a desert campaign, we have 2 kinds of encounters: Middle of nowhere and inside cramped ruins. So Eldrich Spear would be useful about half the time. You don't get many invocations. Your Mileage May Vary.

Hague
2010-06-29, 05:22 PM
Yeah, but aren't there those rods that give you effective shape invocations?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 05:45 PM
Eldritch spear is great, man. I mean really, how many casters/archer enemies are going to try to shoot at you from 95+ feet away?

There's plenty of long range spells that have a minimum range of 400 feet, such as the most classic evocation, fireball. Good luck trying to use your edritch spear against those battlemages. 60 feet is pretty much the same as 250 feet at that point.

aeauseth
2010-06-29, 05:57 PM
There's plenty of long range spells that have a minimum range of 400 feet, such as the most classic evocation, fireball. Good luck trying to use your edritch spear against those battlemages. 60 feet is pretty much the same as 250 feet at that point.

Couldn't you combine Eldritch Spear with Horizon Goggles (Far Shot 8k)? Thats 250ft x 2 for 500ft.

Or skip Eldritch Spear and use Horizon Goggles for 60ft x 2 = 120ft. I'd think for a typical outdoor encounter 120ft would be sufficient. I don't recall the last time (if ever) where our party maintained a fight at 400ft.

aeauseth
2010-06-29, 06:00 PM
Yeah, but aren't there those rods that give you effective shape invocations?

Rod of Eldritch Power. Magic Item Compendium. 4k for eldritch spear 5/day.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 06:05 PM
Couldn't you combine Eldritch Spear with Horizon Goggles (Far Shot 8k)? Thats 250ft x 2 for 500ft.

No.


Benefit
When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1½). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Far Shot only works with projectile or thrown ranged weapons that have a range increment. Even considering the rules for weaponlike spells, Eldritch Blast/Spear has a fixed range like a spell and is not covered by Far Shot.

Tavar
2010-06-29, 06:09 PM
No.



Far Shot only works with projectile or thrown ranged weapons that have a range increment. Even considering the rules for weaponlike spells, Eldritch Blast/Spear has a fixed range like a spell and is not covered by Far Shot.

Horizen goggles specifically applies the Far Shot benefits to spells and spell like abilities.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 06:09 PM
Horizen goggles specifically applies the Far Shot benefits to spells and spell like abilities.

Well in that case, I stand corrected.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-29, 06:53 PM
The horizon goggles don't impart the far shot ability to spell(-like) attacks, it instead for them gives a straight 50% range increase.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-29, 06:54 PM
For me, Eldritch Spear is a go to choice because it makes perfect in-game sense. If I were a Warlock I would want to hit my enemies when they are *way* over *there*. It may not make perfect sense mechanically. As someone pointed out, how often do you encounter an enemy more than 60' away? But it makes a great choice to me as something a Warlock would choose for survival purposes. It also makes sense if the Warlock is part of a military unit and he is the group sniper. I had an idea for a Warforged Warlock that was part of an 'artillery' unit.

graeylin
2010-06-29, 08:15 PM
i played a warlock in a short lived maritime game, and E Spear was an absolute life-saver... but that is one of the few times that my enemies were not in melee within one round of sighting them. It was nice to be able to nail a few bad guys before the others in the party, as the ships approached.

and despite my enjoyment of ES, i haven't bothered to take it since, in any landbased warlock/game... and don't miss it.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 08:47 PM
While the point about most encounters taking place within 60 ft. is certainly true in most campaigns, it isn't true in all of them. Although I've never played in one, I've heard of campaigns that take place primarily in the air and ones that involve a lot of epic battles on an open field. Even in a campaign with reasonably mixed environments, you're bound to find yourself in a wide-open space frequently enough for it to be worth taking.

And as for the distance-to-enemy spot checks...I don't know if they've been updated, but I don't quite get the rules for it in the PHB. "-1 per 10 feet of distance?" That seems like it would only be accurate in a dimly-lit dungeon. I mean, is it really that hard to spot someone approaching from the other end of a football field (i.e. 300 ft) on a sunny day?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-29, 08:51 PM
And as for the distance-to-enemy spot checks...I don't know if they've been updated, but I don't quite get the rules for it in the PHB. "-1 per 10 feet of distance?" That seems like it would only be accurate in a dimly-lit dungeon. I mean, is it really that hard to spot someone approaching from the other end of a football field (i.e. 300 ft) on a sunny day?

There are many things in the rules that don't make sense. Like tower-shields of invisibility.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 09:13 PM
The farther away something is, the less likely it is that you're looking in exactly the right direction?

Knaight
2010-06-29, 09:16 PM
You have a 110 degree field of vision. Its not that hard to cover every direction quickly.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 09:22 PM
You have a 110 degree field of vision. Its not that hard to cover every direction quickly.

Natter: perphirals? I can detect movement, if not read words, at my 3/9'o'clock positions.

But for dedicated, squinty-eyed, focused viewing, yeah, 110 degrees sounds about right.

Knaight
2010-06-29, 09:34 PM
At 300 feet, they aren't going to detect someone walking. Maybe a sprint.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 09:41 PM
At 300 feet, they aren't going to detect someone walking. Maybe a sprint.

Um...I'm sorry, I have to disagree with that. Sure, if they're camouflaged or hiding in some brush, yeah, but just out in the open? For strictly range purposes, there's nothing that seems like it would impede your targeting ability with eldritch spear, aside from a range increment, which it doesn't have.

Knaight
2010-06-29, 10:05 PM
That was to the above post, about periphreal vision. If you are looking at them without your periphreal vision, then it works. So as I said earlier 110 degree field of vision, you can cover the area, and should be able to target someone at that range. The only reason you can't with Eldritch Spear is that it is 50 feet out of range.

Ashiel
2010-06-30, 07:22 AM
While the point about most encounters taking place within 60 ft. is certainly true in most campaigns, it isn't true in all of them. Although I've never played in one, I've heard of campaigns that take place primarily in the air and ones that involve a lot of epic battles on an open field. Even in a campaign with reasonably mixed environments, you're bound to find yourself in a wide-open space frequently enough for it to be worth taking.

And as for the distance-to-enemy spot checks...I don't know if they've been updated, but I don't quite get the rules for it in the PHB. "-1 per 10 feet of distance?" That seems like it would only be accurate in a dimly-lit dungeon. I mean, is it really that hard to spot someone approaching from the other end of a football field (i.e. 300 ft) on a sunny day?

If they're walking towards you from the other end of a football field, they they do not have cover or concealment, and thus are not entitled to a hide check; so you auto-see them. So your example works fine in the rules. Now should you be on one end of the field and they're hiding behind the goal post, then they will be much harder to see than if you were close to them and they were hiding behind the goal post.

Get it? :smallsmile:

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 07:31 AM
And if the person isn't hiding, you'll still need a spot check for finer details like recognizing the person or what she is bearing.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-30, 07:54 AM
Yeah, spot only applies to seeing hiding creatures or making out fine details.

You can still tell there's an orc over there at three hundred feet. Or, at least, a burly humanoid figure that appears to be roughly Medium-sized.

Noedig
2010-06-30, 11:13 AM
Is there a larger list of Warlock invocations than those found in Complete Arcane and Complete Mage? They seem smallish.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-30, 11:20 AM
Is there a larger list of Warlock invocations than those found in Complete Arcane and Complete Mage? They seem smallish.

There are few in Dragon Magic, and then there are like three found in Magic of the Incarnum, might be a few in various Dragon Magazines, but that is it.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 11:23 AM
There's also the epic ones (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a), which are pretty cool but generally require taking a few turkeys along the way.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-30, 05:53 PM
There's also a couple in Cityscape.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 06:31 PM
There's also a couple in Cityscape.

So there are!
...They seem a tad situational though.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-30, 06:36 PM
Devil's Whispers is a great one! Thieves' Bane is pretty nice for defense considering you can spam it on all the available doors and windows. But yes, a bit situational.

balistafreak
2010-06-30, 07:29 PM
So there are!
...They seem a tad situational though.

Isn't there a hold portal-esque one that makes doors explode if forced open or something like that?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-30, 07:32 PM
Isn't there a hold portal-esque one that makes doors explode if forced open or something like that?

That's Thieves' Bane.

Explosions: NOT only useful for offense! :smallamused:

Evard
2010-06-30, 10:19 PM
So its basically used as exploding runes? Can you put thieves bane on say a pouch?