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okpokalypse
2010-06-29, 09:55 AM
I've created an Ardent build that has been molded around the idea of controlling combats via limiting actions. The short version of the build is this:

Dominant Ideal (-2 PSP for Meta, No Longer Expend Focus)
Sculpt Power (Meta-Powered) on Energy Burst
Knockdown Power (Meta-Powered) on Energy Burst
Para-Elemental (Smoke)

So what the PC does is maifest Bursts / Lines / Cones / Balls of Energy that, if the Reflex Save is failed, Knocks down those within the AoE AND removes their Full Round Action the next turn, leaving them with only a Standard OR Move Action.

Now my question is, having knocked a Caster prone with this, can they still cast from Prone? Is there anything that prohibits or enforces this as doable in the RAW? The whole idea is to knock enemies down and force them to waste their single action the next turn standing back up.

And also, is there a better gain to be had from Smoke (as above) or from Ooze (which causes the target to become entangled for 1 turn) when paired with Knockdown? Would entanglement be more restrictive from Prone as opposed to just having one action?

Thanks in advance!

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 09:57 AM
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Yes, casters can still cast. Prone is a fairly minor condition.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 10:00 AM
Where is Para-elemental from? Not familiar with that one.

okpokalypse
2010-06-29, 10:04 AM
Where is Para-elemental from? Not familiar with that one.

Complete Psionic. Requires Priveledged Energy for the type of Para-Elemental effect you take. Fire = Magma, Cold = Ice, Elec = Ooze, Sonic = Smoke.

Magma does an additional 2d6 Damage the following Round
Ice & Smoke both limit the target to a Move OR Standard Action (not both) for their next turn.
Ooze Entangles the target for 1 round.

okpokalypse
2010-06-29, 10:06 AM
Yes, casters can still cast. Prone is a fairly minor condition.

Hmmm, is a Ranged Touch attack considered a Ranged Weapon? If so, at least it's somewhat limiting... It does seem more effective against Melee types, and it will definitely restrict enemy movement - which is useful.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 10:08 AM
Hmmm, is a Ranged Touch attack considered a Ranged Weapon? If so, at least it's somewhat limiting... It does seem more effective against Melee types, and it will definitely restrict enemy movement - which is useful.
Depends. Rays are weapons, but it is unclear about other ranged spells.

Solophoenix
2010-06-29, 10:09 AM
Hmmm, is a Ranged Touch attack considered a Ranged Weapon? If so, at least it's somewhat limiting... It does seem more effective against Melee types, and it will definitely restrict enemy movement - which is useful.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no, because that would make no sense, all you're doing is moving your hands. What does make sense is that you can't draw a bow whilst prone, and to a lesser extent, can't throw knives or javelins.

okpokalypse
2010-06-29, 10:17 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking that I may retool at some point into just doing damage outright. The other Ardent in the group did the same thing but went with Cold (I did Elec / Sonic) and took Meta'd Empower and Twin along with Para-Elemental Cold (Ice). At L15 he's pumping out well over 250 Damage per Manifestation, save for half, and still limiting actions.

Knockdown just isn't really a great route when all is said and done... Sure, it's great for keeping things from running away - but it's just not nearly as effective as massive damage. Those two feats (Knockdown / Meta-Power) would have been much better served buffing damage.

Or, maybe I can petition the DM for a house-rule :)

okpokalypse
2010-06-29, 10:18 AM
Btw - Thanks for the insanely quick feedback :)

Thajocoth
2010-06-29, 02:48 PM
It makes things easier for people if you put the edition in the thread title. For example: I, knowing the prone rules for D&D 4e but not for whatever you're playing, would not have clicked this thread. I only figured out this wasn't D&D 4e because you mention cones & lines.

Keld Denar
2010-06-29, 03:09 PM
Prone is really only bad if you are prone AND threatened. Its good to knock people down when you have 3 friends surrounding them, since the only two things they can do at that point are suck and die. Well, not really, you could cast defensively a spell to teleport you away in some fasion, but standing up or moving are gonna get you whacked, and attacking effectively gives everyone the prone guy swings at a free +4 to their AC.

Its not amazing, but it is fun. I like the tec between lightning's increased save DC and this. The amped DC means your foe has a better chance of failing and being subject to the debuff. I like that with Energy Stun as well.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 03:13 PM
Reminds me of a fun guy I played with whose basic strategy whenever ranged combat was involved was "I drop to the ground".

Croverus
2010-06-29, 03:18 PM
Had a monk that used a quarter staff, there's a feat that allows you to attack from prone without the penalty and another feat that allows you to stand from prone with an attack action without provoking an AoO.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 03:20 PM
Had a monk that used a quarter staff, there's a feat that allows you to attack from prone without the penalty and another feat that allows you to stand from prone with an attack action without provoking an AoO.

It's the same feat, from complete warrior. No one gains a bonus against you while you are prone, you have no penalties while prone, and can stand up for free if your attacks hit.

EENick
2010-06-29, 03:26 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no, because that would make no sense, all you're doing is moving your hands. What does make sense is that you can't draw a bow whilst prone, and to a lesser extent, can't throw knives or javelins.

But your not just moving your hand you are using your whole at least so some extents, particuarly javalins. You don't just flick your wrist to throw one you use your whole body to transfer kenetic energy into it.

I can but someone firing a bow from a sitting position provided it was a rather small bow, particulary a composite bow, or even throwing a knife if they were used to throwing just with your arms (though it is certainly easier to do when you can move your whole body) but there is no way you could effectly toss a javalin. Throwing heavy weapons isn't the same as throwing darts at a dart board.

Consider the difference between tossing a baseball while your a prone vs throwing a baseball and a full out pitch of a baseball. Each one is more intense and requires more energy and thus more motion for you. Likewise throwing a knive with just your arm is going to be very different then if you are free to move your whole body.

In the case of a bow the weapon is basically storing your energy for you and just releasing it all at once via the bow string which is why it is a much more viable weapon in this case.

Sorry if that was more info then anyone needed but seriously trying to take actions while prone are very difficult which is why you don't see basket ball players trying to make shots from the floor you need to use more then just your hands.

Croverus
2010-06-29, 03:28 PM
It's the same feat, from complete warrior. No one gains a bonus against you while you are prone, you have no penalties while prone, and can stand up for free if your attacks hit.

That's it. My DM though made me count it as 2 feats can really when you think about it, all that together is really powerful.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 03:29 PM
That's it. My DM though made me count it as 2 feats can really when you think about it, all that together is really powerful.

By RAW that free action still provokes attacks of opportunity. It might inded be worth 2 feats if you feel you avoid said attacks.

Croverus
2010-06-29, 03:36 PM
Would combining it with Mobility count, or is the Free action to stand up not count as "moving within the threatened area"? Cause I think thats why my DM made it 2 prone feats because he considered standing up "moving". So not only did I not take a penalty while I gained +4 AC when I stood up against those AoOs.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 03:38 PM
Would combining it with Mobility count, or is the Free action to stand up not count as "moving within the threatened area"? Cause I think thats why my DM made it 2 prone feats because he considered standing up "moving". So not only did I not take a penalty while I gained +4 AC when I stood up against those AoOs.

Standing up is not movement in the sense that is explained under Mobility, it is a separate move action(like drawing a weapon) maneuver that causes AoO. Either way works, really.

Morph Bark
2010-06-29, 03:41 PM
Prone is really only bad if you are prone AND threatened. Its good to knock people down when you have 3 friends surrounding them, since the only two things they can do at that point are suck and die. Well, not really, you could cast defensively a spell to teleport you away in some fasion, but standing up or moving are gonna get you whacked, and attacking effectively gives everyone the prone guy swings at a free +4 to their AC.

Its not amazing, but it is fun. I like the tec between lightning's increased save DC and this. The amped DC means your foe has a better chance of failing and being subject to the debuff. I like that with Energy Stun as well.

That makes me think... can you teleport yourself while prone and end up in the other place standing? Or teleport yourself while standing and end up prone, or even hanging horizontally in mid-air with your center of gravity at the same height, but just with the rest of your body turned 90 degrees?

Croverus
2010-06-29, 03:42 PM
Dang... now I want to go and DM an All Monk game... Maybe make it culminate in a Martial Arts Tournament...

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 03:46 PM
That makes me think... can you teleport yourself while prone and end up in the other place standing? Or teleport yourself while standing and end up prone, or even hanging horizontally in mid-air with your center of gravity at the same height, but just with the rest of your body turned 90 degrees?

Well, that's never specified so you should be able to just ask the dm. Since falling overall tends to mean you end up prone, and going prone is a free action, the only actual "offensive" use for picking your position on a teleport is forcing the person to burn an action to stand up.

Keld Denar
2010-06-29, 04:13 PM
Yea, thats kinda a grey area. Is momentum conserved across teleports? I've had PCs try to jump off a cliff, only to use their Anklets of Translocation to teleport the last 10'. They argued that since travel through astral corridors is mental, rather than physical, their momentum would stop. Another commonly cited use of Anklets is to teleport from a prone position to a standing position up to 10' away, as desired. Again, since its astral travel, you have full mental control as its happening.

Its not like a Star Trek transporter device that disassembles your molicules and reassembles them in the exact same fasion in a different location, its magic. Why can't it do that?

LibraryOgre
2010-06-29, 04:14 PM
Hmmm, is a Ranged Touch attack considered a Ranged Weapon? If so, at least it's somewhat limiting... It does seem more effective against Melee types, and it will definitely restrict enemy movement - which is useful.

As a general rule, "weapon-like spells" follow the same rules as weapons. I'd say that a Ranged touch attack usually is, if for no other reason than the difficulty in aiming.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Dang... now I want to go and DM an All Monk game... Maybe make it culminate in a Martial Arts Tournament...

Don't forget to use fighting styles. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)

Zanticor
2010-06-29, 04:30 PM
Prone? that's nothing! My players started tripping all my little monsters and hoping for lots of free attacks but once your next to them they will just full attack you. Happens every time. Casting, attacking, crawling but they will never just waste their rounds getting up and getting hit for free. So my players learned that down is not enough. They have to be down and out!

Zanticor

Croverus
2010-06-29, 04:31 PM
Don't forget to use fighting styles. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)

Ooh, thanks, I almost forgot that. I'll probably post it later tonight.
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