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SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 11:23 AM
I had been chosen as the DM of our latest campaign, and I was really excited about it. I started writing different descriptions, designing the world, creating adventures, etc. for about one week.
However, one of my friends insisted to bring his little brother (9 years young) to play. We had to agree, or he wouldn't have played either. So, he joined.
It was surprisingly easy to explain the basic rules, and the game went fine for the first few minutes. They were talking in a tavern or something, thinking about finding a new team member. For a random reason, they leave without paying. For some second random reason, the little guy starts strangling a stranger outside the tavern. They get a bunch of guards after them, and a crazy chase lasting over an hour follows. And the little guy robs a barbershop during it.
When they finally shake off the guards, the little guy almost kills my animal companion (I play as a druid). For logical in-character reasons, I get angry. Then he almost kills my druid. Then he tries to rob a weaponsmith with a greatsword. Another chase follows. We ask him to start fooling around, and he starts crying.
After about fifteen minutes he finally calms down. However, now we have half town after us. We spend ten minutes deciding about if we should forget the chase stuff. We agree.
We finally get on our first quest. The little guy, a fighter, pushes the wizard into the frontline and starts running circles, while his big brother dances on the roof. When they complete the quest, they start complaining about the small amount of XP.

When the session is over, my friend complains about how little we managed to do on the whole day, blames me and leaves.


My excitement about being a DM collapsed completely... I think the biggest problem was the nine-year old (duh), but how are we supposed to get rid of him? He starts crying and kicking whenever someone says something even slightly negative about him.

Whammydill
2010-06-29, 11:27 AM
By not putting your foot down you are only enabling him. Id say he goes or I am done DM'ing. Other than that, as a DM I'd rule 0 his character to death and make him make a new character then do the same till he gets the point. Which with a 9 year old with big bro backinghim up is likely to end bad.

Something has to give.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 11:30 AM
Hmm... Any ideas on how to kill his character?
Should I just seriously send all the guards in town the next time he fools around? If he starts crying, he probably leaves. If he leaves, my friend blames me and leaves. Then there's just one druid and one wizard. Well, perhaps I would start a duo adventure.

Choco
2010-06-29, 11:31 AM
Just flat out say he is not welcome anymore, and if your friend will not play either then so be it. It is better to drop a friend from the group then play in a game no one is enjoying, by far.

Comet
2010-06-29, 11:34 AM
Don't start dealing with this by going after anyone's character.

Seriously, it's a collaborative effort. Talk to the players about it. Be mature. Petty revenge is gosh darn pathetic.

You could try to teach the nine year old to focus on the cooler bits of the game. If you think he doesn't enjoy the things you do and wants to just fool around, you can politely leave him out of your game.

Out of Character, player-to-player interaction. It needs to happen.

Whammydill
2010-06-29, 11:39 AM
Hmm... Any ideas on how to kill his character?
Should I just seriously send all the guards in town the next time he fools around? If he starts crying, he probably leaves. If he leaves, my friend blames me and leaves. Then there's just one druid and one wizard. Well, perhaps I would start a duo adventure.

Not a friend if you ask me. If you can't take him aside and tell him that his little brother's lack of discipline at the gaming table...his making the game a sandbox for his childish urges is ruining the game... then what kind of friend is he?

On the side note, killing him would be easy and can be done in anyway you can think of. You are the DM, what you say happens, happens. Rule zero is that you have the final say. It's really not going to help the situation though.

Personally I would ambush his character with rust monsters...never gets old. Then when he gets more equipment, namely his precious greatsword, have an ogre sunder it. Then have thieves steal some of the next stuff next time they are in town.

You can also fight fire with fire. His chaotic nature has inspired a local fey, a chaotic quickling or something to hang around him and him alone annoying him with the very things he does to others....

Possibilities are endless. Still I'd go with approaching your "friend"

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 11:40 AM
Yeah, I know what the problem is. The problem is just that if the little guy starts crying, his big bro (who is my best friend) leaves too. Okay, I guess a duo campaign is okay, but still. He would start holding another grudge on me.

Going after characters is exactly what I don't want to do. That's sort of the problem; I wouldn't send lots of guards after him, instead I would just try to get the game to progress. I think that I should turn from "Over-Merciful" to "Realistic".

I never thought about revenge. I think it's just a good point that he can't just go around killing people without experiencing the consequences.

And Whammy: he IS my friend. His parents are just the kind that shouts at him and punishes him for everything his little brother does or whenever something happens to him. Over his life, I guess he has learned to try and avoid those situations at all cost. I think he even let the little brother in just to keep him from crying.

Comet
2010-06-29, 11:45 AM
I never thought about revenge. I think it's just a good point that he can't just go around killing people without experiencing the consequences.

If you start making consequences for a player's actions, you are making those actions a part of the game. Why should a player stop doing whatever it is they're doing when their actions are obviously taking the game somewhere?

It's a game, not a simulation. For me, the first goal of any roleplaying game is to tell a cool story. For this to happen there needs to be a level of communication that happens strictly out-of-character. Everything that happens in-character should be cool and meaningful on some level.

'Least that's the way I see it. Anyway, it's possible that the nine year old will just get bored and quit the game on his own if it's not to his tastes. I'd say just soldier on and try to make the best of the situation and try to have fun.

Chen
2010-06-29, 11:50 AM
I never thought about revenge. I think it's just a good point that he can't just go around killing people without experiencing the consequences.

A 9 year old will not understand those consequences and still just feel like you are picking on him. As people said, deal with it out of game.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 11:50 AM
Yeah, that's a good point. And I guess instead of somehow trying to stop him from fooling around or forgiving it, I should be realistic. He already has a few murders on his head, he'll be captured and hanged if he goes on like that.

Yup, I try to cheer myself up by repeating "He's gonna quit anyway" all the time in my head xD I just hope that the rest of the group doesn't get enough of him before that.

EDIT: Noticed Chen's message: This is exactly the problem. If I try to stop him from ruining everything, I'll just make sure that he ruins everything.

Rothen
2010-06-29, 11:50 AM
This is obviously an OOC problem, and has little to do with the characters themselves. Don't let it affect the game, and talk with the other players about it. Solving these kind of problems in character usually gets you in a position that is far worse than the one you're currently in.

Tell your friend that unless his brother changes his behaviour, he's not welcome anymore at the table while you DM. If that means your friend doesn't want to play anymore, there's little else you can do, apart from trying to talk to the brother - but in my experience, if you tell a 9 y/o to behave nicely has pretty much the opposite effect.

Whammydill
2010-06-29, 11:51 AM
Friend or no, blackmailing with his presence, to get you to let his 9yr old brother in without doing anything to help you reign him in is total crap IMHO. I'm gonna take my ball and go home is more suited to his 9yr old brother.

Dracons
2010-06-29, 11:51 AM
He would start holding another grudge on me.

Not much of a friend if he holds another grudge, over something like DND.


I've played with kids before. Some as young as 6. Some were bad who would go around killing everyone, others would go out of way to be heroes, others just get bored with it and quit.

Best thing to do, is just play to their actions. In case of the above, just let him be captured. Have guards with high speed actions cut them off and mass grapple. Throw him in prison. He can try to escape, but hey at level 1 it be very diffuicult for a unarmed warrior to do so.

Play to their actions, and they do learn not to do stupid stuff. Don't kill their character unless they do something insnaly stupid like leap towards the king screaming your going to cut his head off and use it as a toilet.


Also: Try to limit the DMPCS.....

For Valor
2010-06-29, 11:54 AM
The most logical solution: Kill the 9-year-old and hide him.

It'll be less hassle for everyone, and there are lots of places you can put a dead 9-year-old.

I mean, Edgar Allen Poe sealed his wife in a wall--wait, no... I think that was a story.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 11:56 AM
The grudge thing is complicated. He doesn't seriously keep them, they're just an excuse for complaining.

I am thinking that first, I'll try the consequence method. If he starts complaining about it, I'll have another try at explaining the situation.
And I did manage to save one person from his mindless, bloody slaughter :D He was a paranoid cleric with a permanent Sanctuary on him.

And what's DMPCS again? Dungeon Master Player Character?

Tyrandar
2010-06-29, 11:58 AM
Is there something else you can distract him with? Xbox, coloring book, some nice jangling keys...

If that doesn't work, you're going to have to try and tailor the game to his diminished attention span. Or just give him and your friend the kiss-off...

Comet
2010-06-29, 11:59 AM
I am thinking that first, I'll try the consequence method. If he starts complaining about it, I'll have another try at explaining the situation.


Sounds good to me. Hope it goes well.


And what's DMPCS again? Dungeon Master Player Character?

Yeah, something you should usually avoid. You'll have plenty of work with just running the world and it's hard to remain neutral when you have a character that is "yours".

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 12:00 PM
Yeah, good point with the DMPC. I'm thinking about abandoning him, anyway.

Telonius
2010-06-29, 12:03 PM
Although I haven't had to deal with this myself, I've heard of at least one campaign (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0017.html) where it happened.

Akal Saris
2010-06-29, 12:04 PM
I think it depends on whether you think the kid can learn to play cooperatively or not. It sounds to me like he doesn't really know what to do in this sort of game, so he's going on a rampage. Or he might not want to play at all but doesn't want his brother to have fun.

If you think the kid can play, then I'd talk with him and the brother in your [This is Serious Business] voice and make it clear that if you don't enjoy the next session, that's the end of this D&D game and you're making a duo campaign. Then in the next session give clear goals and motivations for the characters, and probably make it combat-heavy as well. I started D&D when I was 9 (as the group DM, if you can believe it), and frankly it was all about the combat and getting my own dragon.

If you think the kid is too immature, then just tell your friend so, and make the duo campaign.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 12:09 PM
Quite epic comic there xD
Actually, a duo campaign might be quite fun. But the other one would be a DMPC, which isn't fun. And solo campaigns again aren't that fun.

Traveler
2010-06-29, 12:12 PM
Just as a thought, try to give the 9 year old something to do in game or something to distract him to move along with everything. I once had a younger player go over the rails, so the moment things were under control, I threw a plot hook at her (or equivalent) so instead of picking fights with PCs, she directed her efforts on that instead. It worked, but she was a few years older then 9(12?).
The way I did it was making the plot BBEG insult her. If you can give a plot character (best if evil) to be his focus, hopefully things will move along and he might get a better understanding of the game and work with you. Again, just a thought.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 12:14 PM
What's BBEG again...? xD

Traveler
2010-06-29, 12:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it stood for Big Bad Evil Guy, thought I might have it wrong.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-29, 12:16 PM
What's BBEG again...? xD

Big Bad Evil Guy. Or Gal.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 12:17 PM
Okay. I'm actually currently working on the baddy. Surprise surprise, he's a half-something sorcerer. How original, isn't it?

valadil
2010-06-29, 12:19 PM
Have you considered asking your friend how to handle his brother? He's probably got more experience than you in the matter and it is his fault that his brother is in the group.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 12:26 PM
He's kinda annoying in the matter. He always makes me handle this stuff because I'm "more experienced" with (stupid) little children. Heck, my own little brother's only a year younger than me. But it is true that he IS stupid.

valadil
2010-06-29, 12:45 PM
He's kinda annoying in the matter. He always makes me handle this stuff because I'm "more experienced" with (stupid) little children. Heck, my own little brother's only a year younger than me. But it is true that he IS stupid.

That's absurd. You're not his unpaid babysitter.

Gamgee
2010-06-29, 12:48 PM
Just flat out say he is not welcome anymore, and if your friend will not play either then so be it. It is better to drop a friend from the group then play in a game no one is enjoying, by far.

This is really the best option here.

nedz
2010-06-29, 12:54 PM
Charge your friend for babysitting, and then use the money to hire a babysitter :smallcool:

PersonMan
2010-06-29, 01:04 PM
He's there while they're playing, though...

JeenLeen
2010-06-29, 01:04 PM
I would recommend talking to your friend (the older brother) privately first, sometime not related to game. Tell him the problem straight-up, not trying to lay any blame at the big brother, but noting how the little brother's style of play does not mesh with the team or the campaign.

Tell him you understand that, at least for now, the brother needs to be there because of his parents. That's not his fault; that's how it is. The brother needs to be appeased because otherwise his actions will lead to the big brother being unable to play the game (either because his parents will not let him come, or because the big brother is worried about the little brother complaining to the parents and thus will refuse to come. The latter is an issue for the big brother, but that is not your issue. This is tangential; look at the facts as they are.)

I do recommend some game system for the little bro. Tell him he is welcome to play, but it is a serious game. If he wants to play something more violent and random, he can play Grand Theft Auto or Mario World or whatever on your game system.

If that doesn't work out, it becomes changing the campaign to a... evil sandbox or some such thing (which nobody probably would like besides the little bro)... or running it without your friend. Or you can refuse to DM in the situation and ask another friend to DM.

The little brother might not be able to act mature, but the big brother should.
What are your and his ages or age range (early teens, late teens, college), if you don't mind revealing that. It may help give us perspective on the situation.

Tyrandar
2010-06-29, 01:07 PM
Although I haven't had to deal with this myself, I've heard of at least one campaign (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0017.html) where it happened.

Sally is the best little RPG player ever. :smallbiggrin:

Bagelz
2010-06-29, 01:13 PM
punishing his character is not the way to deal with someone who is acting immaturely. It will only make him think you are being mean to him.

Talk to him and his brother (preferably seperately) outside of game time. You do not want to do in front of the other players. Calmly explain that his characters actions are making it too hard to play, and he has the options to stop being disruptive, stop playing, or keep being disruptive and have town gaurds/militia/ falling boulder promptly kill all of his characters.

last option is to let him play an evil npc (maybe two levels higher than the party) and have the party fight him. This makes his lack of teamwork not be disruptive to the team, and keeps everyone involved.

whatever the decision, keep your word, do not threaten some action and then let him get away with it. If he said he'll clean up his act, then starts to get out of hand, warn him "remember what we talked about" once, follow through if he ignores your warning.

Umael
2010-06-29, 01:13 PM
Ouch.

You know, it is possible to handle a 9-year-old, even one like that, but you might need a more mature group. NOT calling your group immature, just, well - you're playing with your friend and his 9-year-old brother, and your friend gets yelled at by his parents if he doesn't keep a close eye out on his brother.

So I'm guess you guys are about high-school age or so.

And you are playing a DMPC.

I'm not surprised things fell apart (again, not a condemnation, just an observation). That combination is a recipe for disaster.

As I see it, you have the following choices:

1) Kick the little kid out. Probably piss off your friend too.
2) Distract the kid with something shiny. Video game, good book, movie, whatever.
3) Pack it in. Hang out and do something together, maybe something everyone (including the 9-year-old) can enjoy.
4) Arrange an intervention. Get your friend to stand up to his parents, or get an adult (especially a relative that his parents respect) involved to speak on his behalf so that the parents tell the 9-year-old to let your friend spend some time with you and the rest of his friends without being disturbed.
5) Re-make the game.

The last one might actually be the hardiest one to do, because it means having a serious talk with the kid. Tell him what role-playing games are about (part combat game, part storytelling), ask him what he wants, and then give it to him. At the same time, know what your friends want, and give it to them as well.

I'm not saying it will be easy, or even possible. You'll notice that I put it after "arrange an intervention". And it is hard because you have to get the kid to cooperate. But it might work. He might want a game where they run into dinosaurs - and the whole party can run around, riding charmed T-rexes as battle mounts.

If it does work, you'll probably have to sacrifice a bit. Forget writing a Tolkien-esque world or having an involved plot. At 9 years old, given what you've said so far about him, he's probably doesn't care what the Elven runes say or who is involved in the prince's plot to discredit his uncle. Look at various G and PG movies for inspiration - and to see what you have to leave behind in order to let him keep up.

The worst part is - it might not work well enough. Oh, you might get to play D&D, and the kid's interest is there, and he's having fun and not disrupting things, but you got tried of the dungeon-crawl fifteen minutes into the game. Everyone is there, and it is better than nothing, but it might end up just so "meh."

But if you do take that path and it does work well... kudos.

Good luck.

Another_Poet
2010-06-29, 01:18 PM
Don't start dealing with this by going after anyone's character.

This.

Also, as DM you are the authority figure - whether you like it or not. I would give the little brother one stern warning in your best Grownup Voice that This is Not a Game for Random Violence. It is a Game with a Story, and Telling the Story takes Teamwork. Does the little brother play a sport? Hockey for instance? "Attacking random people in D&D is like scoring a goal for the wrong team in hockey. You let everyone down, and no one respects it."

If the stern Grownup Voice can't get the kid to play like a team member, then tell him (don't ask, tell) that he has to leave. If his older brother goes too, that's a shame, but let him go and deal with it.

Last, stop playing a character in a campaign you are GMing. Retire your druid. Every time you blur the line between GM and player, you make it harder to assert yourself as an authority and correct these sorts of problems. It might not be a problem if you were a bunch of 30 year olds (or it might be a problem anyway) but you are dealing with a kid and some slightly older kids. Your job is hard enough with the fact that you were voted in, which gives them the sense they can just get rid of you if they don't like how you run things. Put aside your own PC and try just being a GM - firm when needed, enthusiastic and encouraging the rest of the time.

Good luck my friend.

Bagelz
2010-06-29, 01:24 PM
"jingling keys" g rated movies
The kid is 9 not 2 1/2, give him some credit.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-29, 01:25 PM
By not putting your foot down you are only enabling him. Id say he goes or I am done DM'ing.
I pretty much agree, except there should be no "or".

Look, Fred, I like you and all, but your little brother doesn't fit the group. He can't play with us any more. If you want, I can run a separate adventure for the two of you some time.

I can't stress this enough - NO OR. No loopholes, no nothing. He's out, period. Leaving any loophole such as "he leaves or I leave" is just an invitation to a pissing contest.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 01:44 PM
Our group is probably the best one possible, in-game :P

1. A lawful neutral druid who growls at people (me)
2. A true neutral, authistic (in-real life, too) wizard who likes fooling around with caltrops
3. A chaotic neutral rogue who rather kills ten guards than pays a 50 gp fee
4. A chaotic neutral fighter who kills people randomly (the kiddo)


EDIT: Okay, I have the basic idea for an adventure. The party encounters a trickster (homebrew class) in the market. The trickster befriends them and invites them to a party the ruler of the city is holding that night.
When they get in, the trickster and his friends rob the whole party and leave the (perhaps?) confused PCs behind while the guards come in and mistake them for the robbers. Problems with authority follow.

Another_Poet
2010-06-29, 02:26 PM
When they get in, the trickster and his friends rob the whole party and leave the (perhaps?) confused PCs behind while the guards come in and mistake them for the robbers. Problems with authority follow.

This is about the worst solution I can imagine.

Look, I don't mean to be harsh, but have you read the advice people have been posting? There are people here with many years of DMing experience. Some of these people have DM'd longer than I've been alive.

The advice you see them giving over and over is...

1) Don't punish the characters in-game for the problem
2) Get rid of the kid wyo is causing the problem

Your solution above is to leave the kid in, and then beat down the whole party and take their loot.

There is no quicker way to anger and alienate friends in D&D than by engineering an undefeatable beat-down of the PCs and taking their hard-won gear.

I would go back to the drawing board.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 02:33 PM
Well, it was quite a basic idea anyway. And I thought about giving them a somewhat easy way to get themselves a chance to find the real criminals, whom they would encounter in a fair fight.

Another_Poet
2010-06-29, 02:41 PM
Well, it was quite a basic idea anyway. And I thought about giving them a somewhat easy way to get themselves a chance to find the real criminals, whom they would encounter in a fair fight.

Okay, maybe I was too heavy handed in my response. I see your reasoning.

I would really try to fix the OOC group dynamic first though before worrying about in-game plot hooks.

Umael
2010-06-29, 02:44 PM
"jingling keys" g rated movies
The kid is 9 not 2 1/2, give him some credit.

I'm really curious to whom this comment is directed.

Because if it was directed at me and my comment about movies, I said "find some inspiration" from G- and PG-rated movies, not "abandon all common sense and judgement"!

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 02:48 PM
I wonder if I should just make them get banished from the city. They have messed things up pretty bad in there, you know. And it will be a little hard for a murderer to RP in a well-guarded city.

Knaight
2010-06-29, 02:57 PM
The kid clearly can't play the game. This means distraction with video games is probably a good idea in this case.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-29, 03:00 PM
I'll have to talk to his brother. He's too optimistic. "I'm sure he'll understand that he's just making the game harder. We don't need to say anything, he'd just start to cry or something."

Name_Here
2010-06-29, 03:08 PM
I wonder if I should just make them get banished from the city. They have messed things up pretty bad in there, you know. And it will be a little hard for a murderer to RP in a well-guarded city.

From what I've seen your campaign is borked up beyond immediate repair. I'd float the idea of a reset for the campaign by the group and try to come at the campaign from a different angle.

Next you need to work on making the Tabletop "yours" learn to just say no to players. Don't let them convince you to just roll a die to see if it works just a flat out no and move on. Next I wouldn't play with that friend anymore. He could be a great guy but it is fairly obvious that he and his brother are a disrupting factor at the table. It happens, for example I have several friends who have no place in any campaign that I am running because of their actions during previous games. I'm still good friends with them I just don't invite them to play.

Also you need, need, need to spot the incidents where your campaign is coming off the rails and learn to diffuse those situations. My warning Klaxon goes off about the time I start writing up the brute who will knock everybody unconscious and bring them to the guy they are refusing to see. At which point I step back and try to reason with the Players instead of dragging them behind the train.

arrowhen
2010-06-29, 03:11 PM
Teach the kid enough dirty jokes, new swear words, and creative ways to set things on fire that his parents forbid him ever being around you again.

Choco
2010-06-29, 03:12 PM
Teach the kid enough dirty jokes, new swear words, and creative ways to set things on fire that his parents forbid him ever being around you again.

I second this :smallbiggrin:

Haarkla
2010-06-29, 03:32 PM
I would talk to the 9 year old.

Ask him what he wants from the campaign, and try to incorporate his suggestions. Tell him that there will be in-game consequences for his actions, and that he cant go round killing random civilians, unless he wants to be hunted down by the law. He's the hero of a novel.

I definitely wouldn't deliberately kill-off his character.
I would probably drop the DMPC.

CubeB
2010-06-29, 03:45 PM
You're the DM. You put effort into making this campaign.

If someone's 9 year old brother is going to be a moron, have the kid's character penalized for his rampage (I don't mean "send the guards after him". I mean Experience and Gold Penalties.) then politely inform them that if he's going to be disruptive to the other players (up to and including trying to kill them), then he's not welcome in your game.

Also, make sure he doesn't get any experience for randomly killing people. That's a big one.

Vinyadan
2010-06-29, 03:54 PM
I would not allow the child to play.
I don't know how old you are, and how wide the gap is between you and the hatchling, but a nine years old is very different from a 13 years old and is really different from a 15, not to say higher. The ways you enjoy yourselves are different from his. I would feel impeded by his simple presence. I wouldn't even be sure of what jokes I would be allowed to say in front of him! Maybe I am older than you and you don't have such problems, but I would honestly ask myself how good it is to let him play, from both standpoints.
If you want to play, you don't want to do babysitting. I he wants to play, he wants to play as a 9 years old can. And, by the way, it looks like he learnt from GTA.

A nice move would be to start playing Call of Cthulhu instead. Then he surely would be too young to play and no reasonable parent would allow him too - unless he already plays Manhunt...

JeenLeen
2010-06-29, 04:05 PM
I do think DMPCs can work if they are party-level (or maybe weaker) and stay uninvolved in diplomatic or puzzle situations. With only two other players, they have a place to make a team, not just a duo. If the kid stays as a third, though, I agree to drop the DMPC and focus on the world unless everyone is very happy with the DMPC.

As stated above, talk to the brothers. If your friend insists that the little brother will turn around and doesn't need to be talked to... well, I say put your foot down. It's part of DMing. Don't be a jerk, but be fair. You are, although still equal as friends, in a position of authority, and with that is the responsibility of providing a fun game.

I do think you should give the little brother another chance, but only after talking at least to the big brother. Probably both of them, after talking to the big brother independently.

It sounds like the little brother needs to not be manipulative through crying (whether he's doing it consciously or unaware of his motives), but that's not your place to try to fix him. It does sound like he is being that type, though, so I would point that out to the big brother. I know from my childhood that a kid can try to get his way without being aware that he is crying to get his way.

EDIT: *After talking to them*, stating that xp rewards are dependent in part on play style is a good idea, as recommended above. That helps my current party.

arrowhen
2010-06-29, 04:08 PM
Another thought: take him under your wing as "apprentice DM". Let him play the monsters. He'll get to roll dice and yell in a scary monster voice, and during the boring talky parts he can organize minis, draw battle maps or even help design encounters.

Vinyadan
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Another thought: take him under your wing as "apprentice DM". Let him play the monsters. He'll get to roll dice and yell in a scary monster voice, and during the boring talky parts he can organize minis, draw battle maps or even help design encounters.

Ehi, this is really a nice idea!

Sc00by
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Dungeon crawl.

He's 9 and wants to kill stuff. So a dungeon crawl is the answer. You can 'teach' him how the game works while satisfying his bloodlust.

Just my 2p

Though talking to him and his brother about what is and isn't appropiate behavoir at the game table can't hurt either...

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-29, 04:37 PM
Alright people, we all had to learn how to play DnD at one point in our lives. I'll be the first to admit that teaching a new player the nuances of the game takes a level effort from the DM and hopefully a few helpful players that borders on godhood. Fortunately, there are 3 of you, to help the newbie.

Now, I firmly believe that 9 is not too early to teach a new player, considering thats the age on teaching my kids to play the game. They may not be as sophisticated as you would like, but once they get the hang of it they'll probably thank you.

Now, if your going to punish the character for his actions in game, GREAT. Just don't fall in the trap of punishing his character for out of game circumstances. Just remind him what would happen if he were to go around slaughtering people in real life. Even games like Grand Theft Auto send the cops after you when you kill somebody.

I understand the desire to play a DMPC in a small group. I generally play one if the current party is under the standard 4 players. This allows me to give the party a little extra firepower. Although, I do generally relegate them to the level of NPC, since I don't want to take away the fun from the actual players. This means that I never play a rogue or wizard in my own campaigns. I will run a tank or healbot for them though. And yes they should have their own personalized set of emotions for when the players do something to them, just like when they interact with other NPCs that I have them interact with.

As far as the kid goes, you really need to talk to him and his brother. The game is only as much fun as everyone makes it. You can switch the focus, like someone said earlier, and make it an evil campaign. This might work since the party is mostly Neutral as it is. Besides they're not playing CN, random acts of violence with out any random acts of generosity falls into the category of CE. This will cater to the kids obvious bloodlust.

Or you can choose to do a reset. Make everyone play a GOOD character. Anytime the kid starts doing something that would shift him closer to evil, just explain that his character wouldn't do that, since it would be an evil act. This will help teach the kid the roleplay aspects of the game. Just tell the players that any character that becomes evil will become an NPC. This is a typical rule for heroic campaigns in the games I've played and DM'd.

Above all, you need to be patient. Patience with a newbie is the most important virtue that any DM can have.

Thajocoth
2010-06-29, 04:49 PM
You're the DM. You're in charge. If a player's going to have their character do something that will impede the campaign. "No, you don't." You can say that sometimes. Houserule: PCs can't take evil actions. Simple enough.

Zanticor
2010-06-29, 04:51 PM
If your playing with young children that can be really great. It does put some restrictions on what you can do. For one: don't try to teach while playing. It should all be about fun and rewards. Seriously, playing D&D so young is very intense for young children. It is not a good idea to mix right and wrong in it for D&D is not a good system for education. You'll be in trouble with the parents if you try.
A second point I would recommend from experience: never enforce consequences to the full. The worst thing you could do is kill him for being a jerk. Give him a well structured story to follow not a whole town to ransack. That's just asking for trouble. So what I would do is trow all your ideas of realistic coherent world simulation out of the window. D&D is bad at that anyway. I've seen grown man react very poorly to their PC dieing. Don't do that to a child. We saved you little sister plenty of times by having her teleport to safety if she or her pet cave bear where ever in real danger. She would just auto-blink away (often when we needed her most) and end up in a nice bar where they would take care of her.

In short, you can play D&D with nine year olds. But just be aware that that changes things fundamentally. If your not ok with that that's fine, don't play with them. If you already tried one time and want to go back on it... my best of luck. Bring ice cream and toys for there is no rational negotiation with nine year olds.:smallsmile:

Zanticor

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 06:32 PM
I'll also back straight up Dungeon Crawl, at least at first.

It sounds like the only thing your kid knows is videogame-esque style gaming. If you see Buddha walking down the road, you must kill him, because this is a game, and therefore everything must be killed. There are no repercussions for stabbing someone randomly, etc. etc.

Your kid seems to be least restrained/mature/intimidated enough to not stab party members (something that many adult players are not :smallamused:) so he knows who's on "his side". Put him in a situation where everything they see (other than people at the table) is an enemy, no questions asked.

Slowly introduce him to the concept that yes, other people exist that aren't physically at the table that need respect. Perhaps there's a shopkeeper that mysteriously appears from time to time, that offers his wares for sale - and make sure most/all the loot he finds previously is in money, so that he needs the shopkeeper. Make it known that if he attempts to rob this blatant handout, all of his wares to explode and he will have gained nothing. Make it until he respects the waystations, of people directly supporting his cause. Add healers, scholars, random people with helpful advice - maybe even a few allies in a "defend the castle" situation. They're helping him win the good fight against the evil guys, right?

Once he's comfortable with the idea of imaginary people that aren't there to be killed, start introducing sympathetic neutrals, like a bunch of prisoners that the party stumbles upon. Then neutral-neutrals, people who don't care for him but don't want to hurt him either. Eventually, you might be able to mature him to the point where he accepts hostile-neutrals, people that won't actively go out of their way to hurt him but won't help him much either, and then into cases where the "enemy" might not actually be that, where a diplomatic solution is best.

Eventually, you can walk him outside in a full campaign world without breaking anything, and he will be a far more mature person than many adults, with full knowledge of how the world works, and how to make the system work for him, and generally how to be a good person.

... of course, this is assuming everything goes according to plan... which as we know, of mice and men... :smallannoyed:

742
2010-06-29, 08:01 PM
speak to the older sibling, explain that the younger is either extremely immature and not shiny for RPing or extremely manipulative manipulative and either a troll or a psychopath playing out his fantasies and will not be welcome again. tell him to think up an excuse so the younger does not resent him for playing with you; if he asks you to do it tell him that its not your ****ing problem, something along the lines of "you brought him here, its your job to get rid of him." perhaps suggest that the older sibling runs a game specifically for the younger one at some point, and if he isnt a fun-destroying monster. perhaps suggest that the older sibling tries ballistafreak's idea of a gradually more morally ambigious world, and that its a really good idea but you would much rather have fun until his immaturity/trollishness is under control.

and no its not just a kid thing, i started playing at age (6?) and didnt play my characters like this, ive DMed for children who despite my lazy DMing and playing smash-and-grab characters even the eight year old got that while it was okay to kill the goblins in the dungeon it probably wasnt a good idea to go around murdering random people in town.

Melayl
2010-06-30, 01:43 AM
I would recommend talking to your friend (the older brother) privately first, sometime not related to game. Tell him the problem straight-up, not trying to lay any blame at the big brother, but noting how the little brother's style of play does not mesh with the team or the campaign.

Tell him you understand that, at least for now, the brother needs to be there because of his parents. That's not his fault; that's how it is. The brother needs to be appeased because otherwise his actions will lead to the big brother being unable to play the game (either because his parents will not let him come, or because the big brother is worried about the little brother complaining to the parents and thus will refuse to come. The latter is an issue for the big brother, but that is not your issue. This is tangential; look at the facts as they are.)

I do recommend some game system for the little bro. Tell him he is welcome to play, but it is a serious game. If he wants to play something more violent and random, he can play Grand Theft Auto or Mario World or whatever on your game system.

If that doesn't work out, it becomes changing the campaign to a... evil sandbox or some such thing (which nobody probably would like besides the little bro)... or running it without your friend. Or you can refuse to DM in the situation and ask another friend to DM.

The little brother might not be able to act mature, but the big brother should.
What are your and his ages or age range (early teens, late teens, college), if you don't mind revealing that. It may help give us perspective on the situation.

This. Most definitely this.


I'll also back straight up Dungeon Crawl, at least at first.

It sounds like the only thing your kid knows is videogame-esque style gaming. If you see Buddha walking down the road, you must kill him, because this is a game, and therefore everything must be killed. There are no repercussions for stabbing someone randomly, etc. etc.

Your kid seems to be least restrained/mature/intimidated enough to not stab party members (something that many adult players are not ) so he knows who's on "his side". Put him in a situation where everything they see (other than people at the table) is an enemy, no questions asked.

Slowly introduce him to the concept that yes, other people exist that aren't physically at the table that need respect. Perhaps there's a shopkeeper that mysteriously appears from time to time, that offers his wares for sale - and make sure most/all the loot he finds previously is in money, so that he needs the shopkeeper. Make it known that if he attempts to rob this blatant handout, all of his wares to explode and he will have gained nothing. Make it until he respects the waystations, of people directly supporting his cause. Add healers, scholars, random people with helpful advice - maybe even a few allies in a "defend the castle" situation. They're helping him win the good fight against the evil guys, right?

Once he's comfortable with the idea of imaginary people that aren't there to be killed, start introducing sympathetic neutrals, like a bunch of prisoners that the party stumbles upon. Then neutral-neutrals, people who don't care for him but don't want to hurt him either. Eventually, you might be able to mature him to the point where he accepts hostile-neutrals, people that won't actively go out of their way to hurt him but won't help him much either, and then into cases where the "enemy" might not actually be that, where a diplomatic solution is best.

Eventually, you can walk him outside in a full campaign world without breaking anything, and he will be a far more mature person than many adults, with full knowledge of how the world works, and how to make the system work for him, and generally how to be a good person.

... of course, this is assuming everything goes according to plan... which as we know, of mice and men... As well as this.

Kaulesh
2010-06-30, 11:46 AM
Quite epic comic there xD
Actually, a duo campaign might be quite fun. But the other one would be a DMPC, which isn't fun. And solo campaigns again aren't that fun.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but why not make both DMPCs? For non-serious games, I read something about how in a duo game, the two people would alternate DMing responsibilities. Sounds fun, if both can handle it.

Now that I've read the rest, I second the dungeon crawl idea.

ZeltArruin
2010-06-30, 01:27 PM
I have been playing dnd at least since I was 9, and I have never had characters as random and arbitrary as this kids, but to be fair, I have always been really responsible, reasonable and level headed, even when I was younger than nine years old.

The reason behind this? I was always treated maturely by people, which bred maturity and responsibility in me. If you treat children maturely, they will act as such. If you take retribution out on them, it will only make matters worse. Speaking to the child, not the brother, is the best course of action here, explain to him how the game functions, that there is a goal involved, that he is a big damned hero, and so on. If all he wants after this is his mindless, self indulgent violence, then the only thing to really do is either to give him the boot, or keep trying, the latter being the mature and responsible thing to do. Perhaps if all he does is wantonly attack everything, have the party face something that this does not work against?

tl;dr
Maturity begets maturity.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-30, 01:33 PM
tl;dr
Maturity begets maturity.

And of course, since the child already has nine years worth of influence by parents, friends, and whoever else made him into the person that he already is, it falls up to the DM to fix everything with one brief conversation and suddenly his maturity will rub off on the kid, who will become a mature person.

No, wait, he won't.

It's not the DM's responsibility to serve as a therapist or educator for his players, nor to provide long-term personality coaching. The DM's job is to provide a game. Sometimes, you just need to know when to give up on a player. Or at least give up on a player in the context of this campaign - you can still run dungeon crawls and such for him and his bro.

ZeltArruin
2010-07-02, 02:07 PM
And of course, since the child already has nine years worth of influence by parents, friends, and whoever else made him into the person that he already is, it falls up to the DM to fix everything with one brief conversation and suddenly his maturity will rub off on the kid, who will become a mature person.

No, wait, he won't.

It's not the DM's responsibility to serve as a therapist or educator for his players, nor to provide long-term personality coaching. The DM's job is to provide a game. Sometimes, you just need to know when to give up on a player. Or at least give up on a player in the context of this campaign - you can still run dungeon crawls and such for him and his bro.

So anytime you run into a player that has a personality clash with anyone else in the group, you should simply re-write the campaign or boot them? How will that resolve anything? Did you even read what I wrote? When did I say that everything will change in a brief exchange of words? Isn't it worth trying to help the kid learn how to play the game rather than just saying, "**** it?"

tl;dr
The first post meant, "Be mature, talk to him, and try to make it work."

Lin Bayaseda
2010-07-02, 02:14 PM
So anytime you run into a player that has a personality clash with anyone else in the group, you should simply re-write the campaign or boot them?Any time you run into a clash of personalities with an adult, you can resolve it maturely. Not sure what kind of experience you have with children, but doesn't quite work this way with the typical 9-year-old. Totally different kettle of fish.


Isn't it worth trying to help the kid learn how to play the game rather than just saying, "**** it?"
Not at the expense of everyone else. If you're feeling particularly educational, run a separate game for him, as was already suggested in this thread.

While I admire your willingless to serve as an educator, I will reiterate that this is not, normally, the job of the DM.


tl;dr
The first post meant, "Be mature, talk to him, and try to make it work." While mine means: "probably won't work, and it's not your job anyway".

ZeltArruin
2010-07-02, 02:23 PM
I suppose it is your and my differences in experiences. I have dealt with nine year olds this way and it has worked, though we were not playing dnd, perhaps you have not, which is obviously no fault of your own, or anyone elses for that matter. I feel that the dm is a sort of mediator, because that is their role in the game, and while I slighty extend that to out of game problems, perhaps I step beyond my bounds.

Hague
2010-07-02, 02:28 PM
If the PC does something in the game that's punishable in the game, punish the character. If the player does something outside the scope of in-character actions, then you punish the player. IC Actions = IC consequences. The age of the kid doesn't matter. Guards will kill, capture, or otherwise deal with a murderer. I would never shatter the verisimilitude of my game because a child that I didn't even want in it wants be stupid. Tell the kid that his character is being stupid and thus, gets punished for being stupid. If he believes you are picking on him as a player, then tell him that he can't play because he can't separate his character from himself and that he would only continue the sad trope that D&D players are disconnected from reality.