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View Full Version : Why I don't really like TWF (not to mention manyshot) [rant]



Darklord Xavez
2010-06-29, 01:40 PM
Just a rant here, but still:

Nobody actually fought with two weapons in real life. Well, nobody famous anyways. They got that idea (and also the idea that you can carry a bow strung) from LOTR, I know, but still. Seriously? I think the ranger should just get a fighter bonus feat at 2nd, 6th, and 11th levels. Also, firing two arrows at a time? Impossible. How, you ask? You nock and arrow so that it rests on the grip. To do that with two arrows, you would need a. for the two arrow's nocks to be in the same place; or b. for one of the arrows to be aimed further downwards than the other one, ensuring at least one miss. Or possibly to have two strings, which would mean an utterly tremendous draw weight. Manyshot shouldn't really work at all.

Actual, credible counterpoints are welcomed (i.e. people who ACTUALLY fought with two weapons), but please at least try to back up your answers.
Thanks,
Xavez (currently on a ranting spree)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 01:43 PM
Using small weapons designed to parry and take opportunity stabs is not unheard over the story of swordfighting.

Other than that...well, you come in here and say you don't like something. Being an entirely subjective experience, we can either agree or disagree with it, and discussing it is fruitless.

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-29, 01:44 PM
Using small weapons designed to parry and take opportunity stabs is not unheard over the story of swordfighting.

Oh yes! Forgot about the main-gauche and other similar things.


Other than that...well, you come in here and say you don't like something. Being an entirely subjective experience, we can either agree or disagree with it, and discussing it is fruitless.

I just wanted to write this stuff down somewhere to vent some anger.
-Xavez

lokoone
2010-06-29, 01:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Fax Celestis
2010-06-29, 01:46 PM
So you're okay with wizards being unrealistic by their very nature, but get miffed when a rogue tries to use two weapons at once?

You, sir, appear to be afflicted with Fantasist/Unfair Realism Syndrome (FURS).

hamishspence
2010-06-29, 01:46 PM
Nobody actually fought with two weapons in real life. Well, nobody famous anyways. They got that idea (and also the idea that you can carry a bow strung) from LOTR, I know, but still.


It's very common in pre-LoTR movies fiction.

I think there was a famous samurai who supposedly fought that way- Miyamoto Musashi ?

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-29, 01:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Touché. Or however you say that in Japanese.:smallbiggrin:

But I still prefer my katanas two-handed.
-Xavez
P.S.
So you're okay with wizards being unrealistic by their very nature, but get miffed when a rogue tries to use two weapons at once?

You, sir, appear to be afflicted with Fantasist/Unfair Realism Syndrome (FURS).

Actually, I'm just ranting because it's a good way to vent anger. Besides, it's the aesthetics I'm ranting about.

Saveducks
2010-06-29, 01:50 PM
Manyshot is not impossible I have seen it done it just requires a slight modifacation to the bow

Skaven
2010-06-29, 01:52 PM
Well, I don't think its too far flung an idea considering this is a setting where people can throw balls of fire from their hands.

Two weapon fighitng is a real thing though, people ofte used to use a parrying dagger such as a main gauche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger) in combat. It tended not to be used for attacking though, unless a real opportunity/opening presented itself.

You might also want to look at Niten Ichi-ryū (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nito-ryu).

Knaight
2010-06-29, 01:52 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

Not to mention an absurdly high number of civilian swordsmen in the late renaissance. One larger weapon, and one smaller one, which is what TWF uses by default for penalties.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-29, 01:54 PM
No, you're not ranting about aesthetics.


Nobody actually fought with two weapons in real life.

Nobody blew up buildings with their brainpower and fiddly hand gestures and a flick of the wrist either. And yet, you have no qualms merely accepting that a wizard does what he does.

Do not mistreat non-casting classes by consigning them into a not-proscribed-by-the-game label of "realistic".

Draz74
2010-06-29, 01:54 PM
Yeah, your rant has chronology issues, considering how many fantasy action heroes before LotR fought with two weapons (which isn't even very prominent in LotR) or carried a bow around strung. Ever played Warcraft 2, for example? :smallamused:


Also, firing two arrows at a time? Impossible. How, you ask? You nock and arrow so that it rests on the grip. To do that with two arrows, you would need a. for the two arrow's nocks to be in the same place; or b. for one of the arrows to be aimed further downwards than the other one, ensuring at least one miss. Or possibly to have two strings, which would mean an utterly tremendous draw weight. Manyshot shouldn't really work at all.

From my archery experience, I'm not seeing why the grip couldn't have two places for the arrow to rest (and the string have two places for the nocks), allowing two parallel arrows to be nocked at the same time. Granted, this does bring up the possibility that Manyshot should only be allowed with a modified bow.

Is Manyshot impractical in real life archery? Of course. Is it believable compared to many of the things superhuman fantasy action heroes pull off? IMHO, yes.

The two-string, tremendous-draw-weight idea is a fun one, though. I might have to use that on a Barbarian archer sometime.

Bagelz
2010-06-29, 01:55 PM
modern bows do not rest on the grip they have a dedicated rest (most look like a black sticker with a hook hanging off of it)
i can only assume that at one point in history there were no grips and the shaft just rested on the top of your hand. anyhow if you noch each arrow 1/2 inch apart then you just need to rest the front 1/2 inch apart (carve an additional rest in the bow) or its fantasy, you are just so good you can hold the arrows in place with no rest at all! or you shoot sidearm so they rest on the bow itself.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-29, 01:56 PM
It's a lot easier to fight with two swords in real life, than cast Magic Missile in real life. Believe me, I tried.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-29, 02:00 PM
Your complaining about fantasy styles of fighting in a fantasy style game?

As to duel wielding in RL
Well there is the Florentine style for duel wielding rapiers
Butterfly Swords were designed to be wielded in each hand as were the Japanese weapon the Sai was also designed to be duel wielded

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-29, 02:00 PM
I'm done here. Bye-bye!
-Xavez

Gorgondantess
2010-06-29, 02:00 PM
See, the point of two weapon fighting is to have something like a rapier/main gauche or broadsword/parrying dagger combo. Things tend to be fun when you can gut people with your "shield".:smallbiggrin:

As for manyshot, though, that's just silly. But this is fantasy we're talking about, where if, say, some average guy went up to a semi skilled warrior (let's say warrior 5) with a dagger and stabbed him with it, in the chest, while the warrior slept, the warrior wouldn't be even close to dying. I mean, come on, you stab someone in the chest, they're pretty much dead, but this'll do a max of 8 damage, and then the warrior would just have to make a little piddly fort save. Come on.:smallannoyed:

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 02:01 PM
Yeah, your rant has chronology issues, considering how many fantasy action heroes before LotR fought with two weapons (which isn't even very prominent in LotR) or carried a bow around strung. Ever played Warcraft 2, for example? :smallamused:

Your chronology issues have chronology issues. Lord of the Rings greatly pre-dates Warcraft 2. By like, decades.

NeoVid
2010-06-29, 02:02 PM
Keep your believability out of my game.

More helpfully, one good point about TWF for you: it's actually a trap in 3.x edition. So anyone who does use the thing you hate is gimping themselves.

Doug Lampert
2010-06-29, 02:07 PM
Not to mention an absurdly high number of civilian swordsmen in the late renaissance. One larger weapon, and one smaller one, which is what TWF uses by default for penalties.

TWF was popular for civilians because they couldn't carry a shield all the time, but could carry an offhand dagger or whatever.

Historically it did in fact mostly suck. But so what? In D&D land it does in fact mostly suck! Two handed weapon with power attack almost always comes out both more damaging and more accurate without needing 3 feats to work!

Fax Celestis
2010-06-29, 02:09 PM
I'm done here. Bye-bye!
-Xavez

You came, looking for an argument (and even asked for one!) and then at the first sign of looking a fool you run like the wind. Good show.

hamishspence
2010-06-29, 02:09 PM
Your chronology issues have chronology issues. Lord of the Rings greatly pre-dates Warcraft 2. By like, decades.

But we didn't see people using Manyshot or dual-wielding equal-sized weapons in the LoTR books, as far as I remember.

dextercorvia
2010-06-29, 02:10 PM
I'm done here. Bye-bye!
-Xavez

You have been doing this a lot lately.

What is Xavez?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-29, 02:12 PM
But we didn't see people using Manyshot or dual-wielding equal-sized weapons in the LoTR books, as far as I remember.

* shrug * :smallwink:

hamishspence
2010-06-29, 02:15 PM
I think that movies before LoTR did have trick archery stunts a bit like manyshot- to the point that it was getting parodied in Men In Tights.

So the point you raised is valid (WoW can't be blamed for everything)- but the LoTR books aren't connected to this.

Draz74
2010-06-29, 02:17 PM
But we didn't see people using Manyshot or dual-wielding equal-sized weapons in the LoTR books, as far as I remember.

Thank you hamishspence for defending what was, indeed, my (obvious) logical train of thought.

dextercorvia
2010-06-29, 02:18 PM
Men in Tights did it, because Costner did it in his Robin Hood. IIRC that was Greater Manyshot, he hit two targets.

Roland St. Jude
2010-06-29, 02:20 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: While the OP doesn't own a thread, where it appears the thread was merely a trolling attempt and the OP has fled the field, we might as well lock things.

SilveryCord
2010-06-29, 02:21 PM
But we didn't see people using Manyshot or dual-wielding equal-sized weapons in the LoTR books, as far as I remember.



UglyPanda: The 3.5 designers admitted once in an interview that they made Multishot after watching Lord of the Rings.


Either way, do you really think Tolkein would have wrote, "And then Legolas shoved three arrows onto his bow at once and said, 'Here we go, baby'"? :)