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Arillius
2010-06-29, 04:05 PM
A friend of mine is starting up a 4e campaign soon and invited me to join. This will be my second campaign, my first 4e.

I was thinking an offensive paladin or a fighter. Now I have played fighters before in a few of those one shot games, 3.5 or pathfinder, so I was hoping to try something different. I here paladins can make great offensive, but one or two of my friends say just to stick with fighter. Anyone play far enough or have enough experience with either or both classes in 4e who can tell me what they think?

subject42
2010-06-29, 04:12 PM
A friend of mine and I played a Paladin and Devout Fighter of Kord who both cursed a lot.

Some villagers thought it was pretty offensive.

AlterForm
2010-06-29, 04:18 PM
As you probably know, Paladin and Fighter are Defenders, and as such, are geared primarily towards defense. They can be specced for offense, but you'll get more efficient results from a Striker class. I suggest backing up for a moment and considering what you want your character theme to be.

Do you want an up-close-and-personal divine punisher who smites his foes with a weapon? Avenger (PHB2) will do well here.

Or a divine laser beast, firing his god's wrath left and right? Invoker (PHB2) imposes moderate damage combined with status effects from afar.

Ranger can fill in the Martial role of weapon-wielding arse-kicker, but a Tempest Fighter (Martial Power) can do the same to a certain extent.

If you're absolutely set on Paladin as a class, look in Divine Power. There's a feat that lets you add you STR bonus to Divine Challenge damage, and several nice STR-based powers. There are also STR powers in the PHB1; look for things with large #[W] counts, like Martyr's Retribution (I think that's it; spend a HS, deal 4[W])

Tempest Fighter, which I mentioned earlier, can also put out damage by stacking damage modifiers via multiple attacks. Great Weapon (aka 2 hand weapon) Fighter has large [W] dice. Fighters in general also have what is generally considered the most punishing mark-retribution mechanic of all defenders, gaining a free attack with a bonus to the attack roll when an enemy violates their mark in a specific way.

Arillius
2010-06-29, 04:22 PM
Class wise the campaign is limited to the first players handbook, hes making a sci-fi game and while he's not changing anything but names and reasons for being there it will be easier for him if there's only so many classes he has to work over to fit into the genre so I didn't want to argue.

I had thought that the defenders and strikers and whatnot were more suggestions, as in both PHB1 and the Divine there's options for offensive builds. Most of my experience with 4e comes from the Penny Arcade/pvp/will wheaten pod casts and the recent purchase of several books.

AlterForm
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Class wise the campaign is limited to the first players handbook, hes making a sci-fi game and while hes not changing the mechanics of the classes he still has to change some of it.

I had thought that the defenders and strikers and whatnot were more suggestions, as in both PHB1 and the Divine there's options for offensive builds. Most of my experience with 4e comes from the Penny Arcade/pvp/will wheaten pod casts and the recent purchase of several books.

Indeed, you can go "off-role" to a certain extent, more easily with some classes than others.

If you're limited to PHB1, ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it'll be awkward with either class. I suspect the difference will be in whether you want to offensive by leading the team (STR/WIS Paladin) or by buffing yourself (Great Weapon Fighter).

Do you have any idea how high of level the campaign will reach?

Dogmantra
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
While defenders can do damage, it's a lot easier to make a striker do a lot of damage because that's their thing. However, I'm in a 4e game at the moment, playing a fighter. Even taking the lowest damaging powers, I still have an okay damage output.

Thajocoth
2010-06-29, 04:27 PM
Paladins are very defensive. Fighters are better at defending their allies than a Paladin, while a Paladin has higher defenses (and is therefore harder to hit) and can heal themselves or others a few times per day. Fighters are almost as good at dealing damage as the classes that are meant to deal damage.

Paladins & Fighters are both Defenders primarily. This means that their main job is to make the enemies attack them instead of their allies.

If you want a really offensive Defender, I recommend a Fighter with the Tempest Technique class feature. Str/Dex build. Oddly enough, a pair of Short Swords are a great choice. Since they're offhand weapons, you'll get extra bonuses from your class feature. Wear Hide Armor instead of Scale, since you'll have the Dex for it, and that gives you more bonuses from your class feature. All together, this is a +1 shield bonus to AC & Reflex, +1 to hit, +2 to damage from your class feature. Then take lots of powers that require you to be wielding a weapon in each hand. I can recommend a lot of feats and stuff for this build.

If you can choose the magic you get on your weapons, Hestavar and Rhythm Blade are good choices. The Hestavar will give you a bonus to your Opportunity & Combat Challenge attacks while the Rhythm Blade will increase your defenses.

EDIT: Are you limitted to the PHB1 just for classes? Or for feats and features and everything else too? It seems really weird to restrict anything to me...

Yakk
2010-06-29, 04:30 PM
Offensive Paladins really took off in Divine Power -- basically it completes the Str-only build (as well as shoring up the Cha-only build).

Fighters are interesting in that most of their offence also boosts their defencel especially in PHB1 land. The only real choice is a two-handed weapon or a one handed weapon (1 damage per [W] vs 2 AC from the shield). The lack of superior two-handed weapons in PHB1 then leads to issues... (as the bastard sword is a match for any PHB1 two-handed weapon).

Arillius
2010-06-29, 04:33 PM
I was thinking proactive, with a smite first ask questions later. I have a cleric who fights a lot in the other campaign and I've learned that being able to heal oneself is quite a useful thing, so the lay on hands only makes me think about tit more. The high defense is also what gets me, a paladin be able to take the hits and then deal them back.

Admittedly I had first thought of Paladin because I was hoping for some kinda tech summoned mount, but I've learned better about the 4e ones after some reading.

I actually already have builds written up with ideas for progression depending on what we face, I was just curious as to any actual experience.

Kylarra
2010-06-29, 04:33 PM
In PHB1 land you'll definitely want to go with the fighter as your offensive defender.

Tengu_temp
2010-06-29, 04:34 PM
If you have access to Divine Power, a paladin will deal more damage, at the cost of hurting himself in the process. Just take the alternate class feature from DP, invest in strength first and wisdom second, and use a strong two-handed weapon or a bastard sword. If you don't have access to Divine Power, a fighter will be better.

Arillius
2010-06-29, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure about others. He said he'll be making home brewed races, though the idea of a minotaur with a laser cannon intrigued him. That suggests he might be open to feats and such from other books as well.

Vitruviansquid
2010-06-29, 05:12 PM
While it's true that you shouldn't expect a fighter to do as much damage as an actual striker...

Let me just say that either landing or whiffing a Brute Strike (ask if your GM will you let upgrade to Lasting Threat from Martial Power) is very satisfying.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-29, 05:52 PM
While it's true that you shouldn't expect a fighter to do as much damage as an actual striker...
Ah, but they come very close.

Paladin has as its secondary ability healing people. Fighter has as its secondary ability smacking down enemies pretty hard. Plus they have the cool ability that if you opportunity attack anything, it must stop moving.

Incidentally, Paladin is generally considered underwhelming unless the Divine Power sourcebook is allowed.

Arillius
2010-06-30, 03:48 PM
Alright, so he is allowing most of the Divine Power things. I realize I won't be doing striker damage, but then again I'll be able to take mores hits and ultimately Ill end up ont he front lines with either build.

So the campaign is a 3rd level one, with the +1, 0, and -1 magic item rule for the characters wealth. I'm not really sure I understand this. Does that mean I can only get a lvl 4 rated item, a level 3, and a level 2?

NecroRebel
2010-06-30, 04:09 PM
So the campaign is a 3rd level one, with the +1, 0, and -1 magic item rule for the characters wealth. I'm not really sure I understand this. Does that mean I can only get a lvl 4 rated item, a level 3, and a level 2?

Technically, the level 3 starting wealth is 1 level 4 or less item, 1 level 3 or less item, 1 level 2 or less item, enough gold to buy a level 2 item, and all the nonmagical items you might desire.

I'd recommend you spend your magic items on 1 magic weapon, a suit of magic armor, and a magic neck slot item. Then, since they're free at this point, take a mundane shield if you expect to use one, a mundane ranged weapon like a longbow or crossbow (always nice to have some option to attack at range, as even if you suck at it, a 5% chance of dealing piddly damage is better than nothing), and standard adventuring gear like ropes, pitons, rations, and an Everburning Torch (they're technically mundane adventurer's gear, even if they're supposedly magical). Your gold should probably go for another minor magic item, though since you can cover the major parts (attack, AC, and NADs) with your "required" items it's sometimes difficult to find anything useful at such low levels. Go for Magic Chalk or somesuch if nothing else; you'll never know when such a thing might be useful.

Arillius
2010-06-30, 04:15 PM
Ahh, thank you very much. And thank you all for your help as well.

Arillius
2010-06-30, 05:49 PM
Oh, I've found mention of Ancestral Weapons that level with a character. Is that something that cann be found in a 4e book?

erikun
2010-06-30, 05:54 PM
Actually, I believe there was a 4e Fighter build which out-damaged any other striker builds when the new edition first came out. It was one of the main reasons for removing the Oversized ability from all PC races.

Still, it could work for you. Focusing on STR/CON, using a two-handed Maul and the Hammer Rythym feat, you'll be doing quite a bit of damage on a hit or a miss. Unusually handy with those Reliable powers, in case you miss. If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX. If not, Scale Mail works just as well, and you have access to it from first level. A Barbarian would probably be more practical, though.

I believe Tempest Fighter (Martial Power 1?) is a nice option for wielding two weapons. I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.

I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.


Oh, I've found mention of Ancestral Weapons that level with a character. Is that something that cann be found in a 4e book?
I haven't heard about that one, but there is a Transfer Enchantment ritual which will take the enchantment off a weapon you find (destroying it) and put it on any other weapon you have available. You can easily keep your "ancestral" weapons and armor while still getting new enchantments this way.

Excession
2010-06-30, 07:16 PM
If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX.

Hide Armor Expertise was deservedly nerfed in an update, it's now: "While wearing hide armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC instead of using your Dex or Int modifier." Pre-req is 15 Con and a primal class. Now it just lets Barbs dump Dex without making them extra squishy or forcing them into chain.


I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Daggermaster was also nerfed to only work on Rogue powers. It's useless for other classes now. There was much complaining.



Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.


With Divine Power, Str/Wis can be effective damage dealing defenders, especially if you swap Lay on Hands for Ardent Vow. They have a 3[W] encounter and 4[W] daily at level 1, though they both have a nasty backlash.



I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.


Rangers only get a companion using the build option in Martial Power. I've heard it's a bit weak, though I haven't seen it play. The same round of updates changed mounts so that small characters can now ride medium mounts, rather than requiring large. That would, it seems, let a halfling ranger ride their companion. I'm not sure how the mount and companion rules would interact when it comes to combat, might be a DM call.

Arillius
2010-06-30, 07:59 PM
Yeah, and the Dm is going to allow a few things with the Divine power like that.

ShaggyMarco
2010-06-30, 08:38 PM
Str/Cha build Paladin with Mighty Challenge and a polearm can turn your paladin into something of a striker, using your divine challenge as your striker "damage add" rather than as a real defender mark.

Basically, challenge an enemy and then be where the marked enemy can't get to you, but you can keep knocking them around. They'll be forced to attack other party members and thus, take lots of extra damage.

I'm currently playing a hybrid Barbarian/Paladin that combines barbarian mobility with just this Paladin tactic. I can step up and be the defender if I need to, but frequently I just play hard to get while smacking from a distance.

Incidentally, my party also has a Strikery Fighter. He wields an Executioner's Axe and takes as many high-dice powers as he can. He deals crazy damage.

Meta
2010-06-30, 09:38 PM
Actually, I believe there was a 4e Fighter build which out-damaged any other striker builds when the new edition first came out. It was one of the main reasons for removing the Oversized ability from all PC races.

Still, it could work for you. Focusing on STR/CON, using a two-handed Maul and the Hammer Rythym feat, you'll be doing quite a bit of damage on a hit or a miss. Unusually handy with those Reliable powers, in case you miss. If you have access to Primal Power, I believe there is a feat that allows primal classes - including multiclassed ones - to add CON to your AC instead of DEX. If not, Scale Mail works just as well, and you have access to it from first level. A Barbarian would probably be more practical, though.

I believe Tempest Fighter (Martial Power 1?) is a nice option for wielding two weapons. I seem to recall the Daggermaster (Rogue) paragon path to be a very nice option for crit focusing, although I don't recall if Tempest requires one-handed weapons or will allow still grant bonuses to daggers.

Paladin is more defensively minded, so I'm not sure how damage-focused you can make it. They do have a lot of marking abilities, especially in Divine Power, and a CHA-Paladin could multiclass well with Warlock for a couple of invisibility powers. However, Paladins are mostly known for marking several targets and tossing healing around as secondary effects of their attacks. You're welcome to give the damage-adin a try, as the worst that can happen is that you'll be retraining after a few levels. Heck, I made an INT/CHA socialite/re-roller Paladin, so can attest that the class is rather versatile.

I believe Rangers can ride their animal companions, although I think you need Martial Power for the rules on that.


I haven't heard about that one, but there is a Transfer Enchantment ritual which will take the enchantment off a weapon you find (destroying it) and put it on any other weapon you have available. You can easily keep your "ancestral" weapons and armor while still getting new enchantments this way.

Sorta right on the fighter out damaging all comment. Fighters had one of the best damage paragon paths called Pit Fighter and Rangers would multiclass into fighter for it. although their equivalent, the stormwarden was no slouch in the powerhouse PHB1 pps

edited for spelling

Arillius
2010-06-30, 10:03 PM
I was thinking of doing that second thing, using things like ardent vow and a +1 Inescable Maul.

So they just got rid of a paragon path?

Also, there's this feat that lets you choose what ability score you can hit melee with, is there any such thing for ranged?

erikun
2010-06-30, 10:13 PM
That feat (Melee Training) only applies to basic melee attacks. A fighter with Melee Training will still need STR to hit with his fighter powers.

Heavy Thrown weapons use STR to hit, Light Thrown and other ranged weapons use DEX. I don't think there is a "Ranged Training" feat, although it should be easy for the DM to make one (or allow Melee Training to apply to basic ranged attacks as well).

Arillius
2010-06-30, 10:17 PM
if its that much trouble I won't bother, I got some feats for melee attacks to get first anyway.

Anyone know what the carrying capacity is in 4e?

Meta
2010-06-30, 11:11 PM
if its that much trouble I won't bother, I got some feats for melee attacks to get first anyway.

Anyone know what the carrying capacity is in 4e?

10X str is light load, 20X is heavy load and 50X is how much you can drag i believe

Excession
2010-06-30, 11:31 PM
As a Fighter or high-Str Paladin a javelin is likely to be your best choice for ranged attacks, but how often you need it depends on the encounters that your DM throws at you. You might encounter flying enemies, or ranged enemies that you can't get to easily. You might have a large enough starting distance that you can't get to the enemies in a move+charge, or you want to draw them back to your choice of combat area.

A plain +1 Javelin may be a useful magic item to get, because all magic items in 4e have the returning property. Later on there are other useful enchantments for ranged weapons, like Skyrender if your DM turns out to like flyers.

Arillius
2010-06-30, 11:47 PM
I actually completely missed javelins, lol I feel silly.

What is the returning property? Is it as simple as it sounds?

Mando Knight
2010-07-01, 12:15 AM
Yes, it's as simple as it sounds. Any magic throwing weapon will automatically return to the user's hand after the attack, and can be used even for multiple-attack ranged powers without using extra ammunition.

Here's how the thrown weapons break down:
Heavy Thrown:
Javelin: Simple, fairly long range (for heavy thrown, anyway), spear.
Handaxe: Military, short range, off-hand, axe.
Throwing Hammer: Handaxe, but hammer.
Trident: Military, very short range, spear, more damage, versatile. AV1.
Tratnyr (aka Wingspear): Superior, Javelin range, spear, more damage, versatile. AV1.
Drow Long Knife: Superior, Hand Axe range, heavy blade, +3 proficiency, off-hand. Eberron Player's Guide.

Light Thrown:
Dagger: Simple, hand axe range, low damage, +3 proficiency, light blade, off-hand. +1 to-hit if Rogue.
Shuriken: Superior, thrown only, slightly longer range than handaxe, low damage unless Rogue, +3 proficiency, light blade.
Talenta Boomerang: Superior, thrown only, javelin range, low damage, light blade. Auto-return even if nonmagical. Eberron Player's Guide.
Xen'drik Boomerang: Superior, thrown only, Shuriken range, light blade. Auto-return even if nonmagical. Eberron Player's Guide.

Arillius
2010-07-01, 12:17 AM
Ahh, cool.

Well since my paladins getting weapon focus and weapon expertise in hammers, you think it might be worth it to get a +1 Distance Weapon Throwing hammer instead of a Javelin? It will have the same range and cost the same as a normal +1, and my feats will give it a boost when using it.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-01, 04:22 AM
Rangers only get a companion using the build option in Martial Power. I've heard it's a bit weak,

Yes. While the character will be as strong as any other ranger, the animal companion simply doesn't do all that much. This is because the powers that use the animal tend to be unimpressive, so the common strategy is to use your companion for a free flank, while you use regular ranger powers.

Excession
2010-07-01, 06:12 AM
Ahh, cool.

Well since my paladins getting weapon focus and weapon expertise in hammers, you think it might be worth it to get a +1 Distance Weapon Throwing hammer instead of a Javelin? It will have the same range and cost the same as a normal +1, and my feats will give it a boost when using it.

That would be sensible in the long run. I'm not sure I'd recommend it right from level 3, just because even a +1 weapon is pretty expensive at that point. With throwing hammers more so than javelins, you can reasonably carry a few mundane ones for the hopefully rare times you need one.

It's hard to predict the future, but it's easily possible that you won't use that ranged weapon more than once in your next couple of levels. A couple more healing potions, or resistance or gravespawn potions if you want to make a bet on damage type, might be the difference in surviving those levels or not.

Arillius
2010-07-01, 03:19 PM
Its going to be a jungle setting, so there's no telling what he's going to throw at us. Since archers are unlikely with us being the first fully sentient life on the planet, I expect flier minions by the dozen's.

Arillius
2010-07-01, 03:37 PM
Are there tower shields in 4e?

HMS Invincible
2010-07-01, 04:12 PM
No, you need to burn feats or magic items to get something like a tower shield.

Excession
2010-07-01, 04:13 PM
Are there tower shields in 4e?

No, heavy shield is the best one. There might be a shield enchantment that recaptures some of the 3.5 feel somewhere, but probably not at level 3.

To me, a jungle setting would mean lots of poisons and diseases. Sounds like a job for Gravespawn Potions, and training endurance and heal.

There aren't too many flying monsters at low levels, even less flying minions, but it's pretty easy for your DM to homebrew them. Glueing wings onto monkeys is a time-honored tradition after all. :smallwink:

Arillius
2010-07-08, 05:23 PM
So the level is 3, and he's doing the -1 level, level, +1 level magic item thing for starting out. He's got something like the warforged going so I was thinking of getting the Adamantine plate, but if I'm going offensive and change lay on hands to ardent vow, the dwarven armor offers an extra heal a day. What do you guys think would be more useful?

tbarrie
2010-07-08, 08:11 PM
Actually, I believe there was a 4e Fighter build which out-damaged any other striker builds when the new edition first came out. It was one of the main reasons for removing the Oversized ability from all PC races.

This was a simple procedure, as no PC race ever had it.:)


I was thinking of doing that second thing, using things like ardent vow and a +1 Inescable Maul.

I like Inescapable weapons. But I heartily recommend that you refer to it with the adjective after the noun; "The Maul Inescapable" just sounds way cooler than "an Inescapable Maul". Possibly substitute "The Hammer Inescapable", depending on how much you dread/want jokes about inescapable malls.

Arillius
2010-07-08, 08:29 PM
I like that idea. Its a sci-fi campaign though so its not so mch magic as tech.

Like my divine challenge is a laser cannon on my bionic suits shoulder.

Any suggestions for sciency names?

NecroRebel
2010-07-08, 08:32 PM
So the level is 3, and he's doing the -1 level, level, +1 level magic item thing for starting out. He's got something like the warforged going so I was thinking of getting the Adamantine plate, but if I'm going offensive and change lay on hands to ardent vow, the dwarven armor offers an extra heal a day. What do you guys think would be more useful?

Well, if you're going to go for an offensive build, you might as well go for offensive-boosting items as well. Of course, most armor isn't very good at offensive boosts, so that isn't exactly helpful.

For myself, I greatly dislike daily-use item powers (I'm bad with resource management like that, so I value constant properties and at-will/encounter powers far more), so given the choice of those two items, I'd probably go for the adamantine plating. On the other hand, a free-action healing power like the Dwarven Armor's is quite powerful, particularly for a Paladin who already has lots of surges.

In my case, I'd avoid using the Dwarven Armor's daily power unless and until "absolutely necessary," which actually wouldn't come up in most adventuring days, making the Dwarven Armor much less appealing. If you're like me in that regard, take the Adamantine Plate. If you're better at judging when limited-use things like that are useful enough to warrant using than I am, I'd recommend the Dwarven Armor.


This was a simple procedure, as no PC race ever had it.:)

There were races that had in in MM1, and as they've been updated as "PC" races (even if somewhat monstrous ones, like Minotaurs), and Oversized was often considered valuable enough that losing racial feat choices was totally worthwhile.

Arillius
2010-07-08, 08:44 PM
Cool. I like the adamantine property to. I don't think the dwarven armor spends on your surges, iit just says your healed as if you spent one.

So I narrowed my weapon choices down to two. Vanguard and Reckless.

One offers more to my charge, there's a feat he made I can take that will allow me to knock prone anyone whom I hit on a succesfulk charge. Add that to the berserkers Badge for my level 2 item and I'm a charging machine.

The second I could stack with the Power attack feat instead and do five extra damage for some penalties. I've been warned by others that power attack isn't all its cracked up to be though, so I wanted to get your opinions.

NecroRebel
2010-07-08, 09:13 PM
Cool. I like the adamantine property to. I don't think the dwarven armor spends on your surges, iit just says your healed as if you spent one.

So it does. That just makes it more attractive if you think you'll not treat it as too awesome to use :smallsmile:


So I narrowed my weapon choices down to three. Vanguard and Reckless.

If you count those options, you'll notice that there's only two :smallwink:


One offers more to my charge, there's a feat he made I can take that will allow me to knock prone anyone whom I hit on a succesfulk charge. Add that to the berserkers Badge for my level 2 item and I'm a charging machine.

Um. Has the Vanguard Weapon been errata'ed? I'm not seeing any looking through myself, and if it hasn't been, that weapon type's power is actually completely unusable due to its action type. You can't use a minor action during a standard action, nor can you use one after a charge, so it simply cannot be activated.

If either I am incorrect in my reading and interpretation of that issue, or you can get your DM to fix the obvious mistake therein (it should be a free action, like every other similar effect), the Vanguard weapon is going to be better. A bonus to attack and damage rolls for the whole rest of your party, even once per day, is better than a bonus to damage rolls for just you, even once per day. Considering that the Vanguard weapon also adds damage when you charge, and you're already taking other feats and equipment to aid charges, it's the clear choice.


The second I could stack with the Power attack feat instead and do five extra damage for some penalties. I've been warned by others that power attack isn't all its cracked up to be though, so I wanted to get your opinions.

Power Attack, generally, is a trap. In 3.x, it was good to the point that practically every frontliner just had to take it, but no longer. Bonuses to attack rolls are relatively hard to come by in 4E, while bonuses to damage rolls are easy. Combined with the fact that you'll consistently hit on a 7 for easy targets or 14 on very hard targets, that -2 attack works out to a ~15-30% reduction in your adjusted chance to hit, and thus average damage. If you're dealing ~6-14 damage without Power Attack, depending on your original chance to hit, power attack reduces your actual average damage per round at heroic tier. Getting that much damage is not hard, thus Power Attack just generally isn't worth it.

The explanations behind this is somewhat more complicated, and I might be off on the actual numbers, but the fact remains that Power Attack is practically never worth it unless you can manage very, very high attack bonuses relative to enemy defenses.

tbarrie
2010-07-08, 09:47 PM
There were races that had [Oversized] in MM1, and as they've been updated as "PC" races (even if somewhat monstrous ones, like Minotaurs), and Oversized was often considered valuable enough that losing racial feat choices was totally worthwhile.

Yeah, I know that some of the NPC stat blocks in the Monster Manual had it, but Erikun explicitly mentioned remove it from PC races. And even when the same monster has been given both PC and NPC statblocks, the PC version has never had Oversized. The PC Minotaur published in the PHB had some changes from the original Dragon magazine version, but the original one didn't have Oversized either.

(And we are just talking about Minotaurs, right? As I recall, only Minotaurs and Bugbears had the ability in the first place, and Bugbears don't have a PC version.)


Um. Has the Vanguard Weapon been errata'ed? I'm not seeing any looking through myself, and if it hasn't been, that weapon type's power is actually completely unusable due to its action type. You can't use a minor action during a standard action, nor can you use one after a charge, so it simply cannot be activated.

If either I am incorrect in my reading and interpretation of that issue, or you can get your DM to fix the obvious mistake therein (it should be a free action, like every other similar effect), the Vanguard weapon is going to be better.

If I were DMing, I would read it that the minor action has to be spent immediately before you charge. But the item's power is certainly not going to be completely unusable, unless Arillius is faced with a bad case of ******* DM Syndrome. And if he is, a single unusable item power will be the least of his problems.:)

NecroRebel
2010-07-08, 09:56 PM
(And we are just talking about Minotaurs, right? As I recall, only Minotaurs and Bugbears had the ability in the first place, and Bugbears don't have a PC version.)

Yeah, pretty much. I had thought that there was some sort of update to Bugbears to disallow the larger-sized weapons on them, too, but I don't remember where, or if, I actually saw such a thing. Regardless, it's not much of an issue anymore.


If I were DMing, I would read it that the minor action has to be spent immediately before you charge. But the item's power is certainly not going to be completely unusable, unless Arillius is faced with a bad case of ******* DM Syndrome. And if he is, a single unusable item power will be the least of his problems.:)

If you use it before you charge, you're not using it "when you make a charge attack," so by strict RAW it doesn't work then, either. I do agree with you that it isn't an issue unless one is suffering from ******* DM Syndrome, though. I would rule that the word "minor" in the action type was a mistake and that it should be "free" instead.

Arillius
2010-07-08, 10:56 PM
I had three, but I edited one out because I remembered that it was a bit more limited then I had thought.

I'm not sure if its been Errated, but this is the same DM who let me and the ranger add a modified version of alchemists fire that acts as a flamethrower (no half on miss but those it hits get ongoing 5, turned it into a daily and added into my armor as), he's pretty cool so I'm sure it won't be a problem.

true_shinken
2010-07-09, 07:28 AM
Make a Human Tempest Fighter into Adroit Explorer wielding a pair of scourges.
Spam Rain of Blows like there is no tomorrow.

Arillius
2010-07-12, 08:15 PM
I met up with one fo the players who is going fighter and he decided to go with a greataxe. It got me thinking about his weapon choice and mine. Which is better, rolling a d12 or rolling 2d6? I understand that 2d6 guarantees at least 2 where the 1d12 doesn't, but is the 1d12 more likely to roll higher?

And for that matter, which do you think is preferable, going with the heavy blades and their higher PB for lower base damage or the hammers for their higher base dmg and lower PB. Is it better to hit more reliably or do more dmg when you do hit?

NecroRebel
2010-07-12, 10:08 PM
I met up with one fo the players who is going fighter and he decided to go with a greataxe. It got me thinking about his weapon choice and mine. Which is better, rolling a d12 or rolling 2d6? I understand that 2d6 guarantees at least 2 where the 1d12 doesn't, but is the 1d12 more likely to roll higher?

2d6 averages 7, 1d12 averages 6.5. So, going strictly by averages, 2d6 is better. However, 1d12 has a significantly higher chance of rolling an 11 or 12 than 2d6 (though also a much higher chance of a 1 or 2), so depending on application either can be better. For damage, though, 2d6 is preferable due to the higher average.


And for that matter, which do you think is preferable, going with the heavy blades and their higher PB for lower base damage or the hammers for their higher base dmg and lower PB. Is it better to hit more reliably or do more dmg when you do hit?

Heavy blades are better, IMO. On average, damage per round adjusted for to-hit% is roughly the same for every heavy weapon (though larger damage dice are favored more by multi[W] powers), heavy blades are more likely to give you any extra effects your powers have on a hit, and, perhaps most importantly of all, blades have the best feats available. Heavy Blade Opportunity, if you're getting into the Paragon tier and can qualify for it, is extremely good, as at-will powers are much superior to melee basic attacks.