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subject42
2010-06-29, 04:11 PM
Hello All,
It's always nice to branch out a bit, and I thought that it would be nice to get a good suggestion list for non-core base classes that people could try if they felt like trying something new.

I have a quick list below. Does anyone have any ideas that I missed?

Barbarian: Warlock, Wilder, Crusader, Duskblade, Alchemist, Warblade

Bard: White Raven Crusader, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, Witch

Cleric: Spirit Shaman, Binder, Favored Soul, Shugenja, Ardent, Mystic, Archivist, Oracle, Healer

Druid: Spirit Shaman, Totemist, Shugenja, Summoner

Fighter: Warblade, Duskblade, Hexblade, Knight, Swashbuckler, Cavalier

Monk: Unarmed Swordsage, Psychic Warrior

Paladin: Incarnate, Crusader, Knight, Duskblade, Hexblade, Cavalier

Ranger: Swordsage, Duskblade, Hexblade, Scout, Warlock, Inquisitor

Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler, Scout, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, Lurk

Sorcerer: Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Binder, Psion, Dragonfire Adept, Wilder

Wizard: Wu Jen, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Artificer, Psion, Dragonfire Adept, Erudite, Archivist, Factotum

Curmudgeon
2010-06-29, 04:13 PM
Add Knight for both Fighter and Paladin.

Jorda75
2010-06-29, 04:16 PM
A character who likes to play Barbarians may find some fun in a surprising place, the Warlock. While they appear fundamentally different a Warlock is a great way to introduce a martial player into the arcane classes. Warlock powers are often very straight forward, he doesn't need to pick from a large list and most of the time the warlock is standing back, firing away. If even this is a bit much with a simple feat you can change the character around make them a melee warlock, charging in and bashing heads with magical punches.

Keld Denar
2010-06-29, 04:17 PM
Add in Dragonfire Adept for wizard or sorcerer. They fill the same role (AoE damage and control).

Duskblade and PsyWar for fighter. Heck. Duskblade and PsyWar would probably work for Ranger and Paladin as well.

Totemist for Ranger.

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-29, 04:17 PM
sorcerer-psion

The-Mage-King
2010-06-29, 04:18 PM
Wizard: Magic Swordsage.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 04:20 PM
Since I see you doubling some of the choices, Shugenja subs well for Druid as well as Cleric. Archivist can also sub for both.

- Swashbuckler and Duskblade can sub for Fighter
- Duskblade and Hexblade for Paladin
- Psion and Erudite sub well for Wizard, and Wilder for Sorcerer
- Wilder can also sub for Barbarian if you go with a gish build (in terms of filling the "get mad and break things" niche.)
- Ardent and Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) sub for Cleric.
- Scout, Warlock and Marksman (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/marksman) can sub for Ranger.
- Spellthief, Psychic Rogue and Lurk can sub for Rogue.

subject42
2010-06-29, 04:21 PM
Wizard: Magic Swordsage.

I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

The-Mage-King
2010-06-29, 04:22 PM
I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

I'm going to see if there's a Dm crazy enough to allow me to try it.

I imagine that it'd work about as well as a Warlock... Just more blasty.

mabriss lethe
2010-06-29, 04:23 PM
Put Factotum on the list for both Bard and Rogue....and anywhere else it seems appropriate

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 04:24 PM
I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?
Tried what? There's isn't an actual class by that name in the book - just a vague suggestion for a homebrewed adaptation you might make if you were interested in that feel. It's quite clearly not playable based solely on what's in the book; you'd have to write up a spell list, for one thing.

subject42
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
It's quite clearly not playable based solely on what's in the book; you'd have to write up a spell list, for one thing.

That's why I'm asking. I would want to know what the pitfalls were in previous attempts before I went and allowed/brewed it.

Keld Denar
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
I've always been hesitant about that one. Has anyone ever tried it in an actual game?

Saph played one in a high op RHoD game. Constant Blur and attacks with Belkar Claws was pretty slick. Too bad the game died. :smallfrown:

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 04:25 PM
Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler, Swordsage.

Zovc
2010-06-29, 04:28 PM
Barbarian: ???
Barbarian is fine, it just isn't an optimal class to take for 20 levels straight.


Bard: White Raven Crusader, Martial, Dragon Shaman
Bard is also fine. Bard just isn't a very strong class on its own, either. Bard does, incidentally, have a lot of great prestige class options.


Cleric: Spirit Shaman, Binder, Favored Soul, Shugenja
Cleric is an excellent class, and it's hard to find a more powerful replacement.

If you want to give a cleric a different playstyle, make them a Spontaneous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), Cliostered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). (This will be almost strictly better than a Favored Soul, and will play much more nicely with prestige classes.)


Druid: Spirit Shaman, Binder
There are a lot of interesting druid variants, poke around the SRD. There's also the Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger).


Fighter: Warblade, ???
Yes, the Warblade is an excellent replacement for the Fighter.


Monk: Unarmed Swordsage, Psychic Warrior
You're on the right track here.


Paladin: Incarnate, Crusader, Knight
You're mean enough to encourage someone to play an Incarnate?


Ranger: Swordsage, ???
Unfortunately, ToB didn't do much for ranged characters. I believe the Wildshape Ranger is the most popular ranger replacement.


Rogue: Factotum, Beguiler (?)
You're on the right track here.


Sorcerer: Warlock, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Binder

The Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) is almost a sorcerer in terms of casting power early on, but it does also get bonus feats. (...and you choose your casting stat, and you have A LOT more spells to pick from.) The Binder is not a good replacement for a Sorcerer, and the Warmage is often considered a very weak class. The Psion is also a good replacement for a Sorcerer.


Wizard: Wu Jen, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Artificer

I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a class that does casting better than a Wizard.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 04:32 PM
Zovc, I do not think the point is to find the Optimal choices at all, only similar, non-core ones...But I do agree that Warmage doesn't sub for Wizard in most cases.

Zovc
2010-06-29, 04:37 PM
Zovc, I do not think the point is to find the Optimal choices at all, only similar, non-core ones...But I do agree that Warmage doesn't sub for Wizard in most cases.

So what if I was trying to think of similar, better stuff? :P

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 04:43 PM
Nothing wrong at all, but since you didn't say that you were ignoring the original premisse of simply variety and tackling it from an optimization angle, it appeared you were trying to correct the OP.

molten_dragon
2010-06-29, 04:48 PM
Barbarian: Warlock, Wilder

These both seem like VERY odd suggestions for a barbarian. I would be more inclined to suggest things like the Warblade, Crusader, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, and other 'fighter type' classes as an alternative.

Critical
2010-06-29, 04:58 PM
Warblade for a Barbarian, also, Shifter race if the player's into some kind of "Berzerker's mode" condition for his character. :smalltongue:

Optimator
2010-06-29, 05:11 PM
I would recommend Duskblade for a Barbarian substitute. Duskblades are arcane Barbarians.

Douglas
2010-06-29, 05:13 PM
That's why I'm asking. I would want to know what the pitfalls were in previous attempts before I went and allowed/brewed it.
See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7918737&postcount=2) for my suggestion of how to handle arcane swordsage, though I haven't actually tried using it in game.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 05:14 PM
I would recommend Duskblade for a Barbarian substitute. Duskblades are arcane Barbarians.

I agree with this. Even if they are smart and don't rage.

CubeB
2010-06-29, 05:34 PM
These are Pathfinder Only, and they're still being playtested, but here.

The Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/oracle---final-playtest): A Spontaneous Divine Caster. Unlike the Favored Soul, an Oracle is more like a soothsayer. They get bonus class features based on their Mystery (which is similar to a domain), and their Curse (a disability, such as blindness or deafness, which can only be cured by a deity.) They're less durable than a cleric, however. If you like Sorcerers or Cleric, then you might want to look into the Oracle.

The Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/summoner-final-playtest-version): A spontaneous arcane caster who specializes in calling forth creatures from the various planes. The summoner's main class feature is the Eidolon, an unlimited duration customizable creature that acts as the Summoner's companion. They also (naturally) are adept at using Summon Monster to call for aid. You won't be as powerful as an Animal Companion Wizard, but the Flavor of being able to have a completely customizable creature as your bodyguard appeals to quite a few individuals. It's an alternative to Companion Oriented Druids and Rangers, or Summon Happy Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics. The choice here is mostly for flavor though.

The Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/witch---final-playtest-version): The Witch is an interesting class. They're learned spell casters, like a Wizard, who rely on a Familiar to gain their spells. However, they also have spontaneous abilities called "Hexes" that function like Warlock Invocations. Their spell selection isn't very big on offense, but they make fairly good support casters. At least on paper. I'd recommend them as a Bard Alternative, personally.

The Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/cavalier---final-playtest-version): This is the obligatory Melee Class. They're an interesting alternative for Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians, but the ToB Classes are a better choice. Still, if you like the flavor, it's worth looking into.

The Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/inquisitor---final-playtest-version): NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! This class is kind of like a blend between the Paladin and the Ranger, with an expanded spell list. (They go up to Caster Level 9, as opposed to the lower caster levels of the Pali and Ranger). They gain domains like a cleric, they have a special judgement ability that grants them additional powers, and they can imbue their weapons with the bane property. If you like the idea of hunting down the enemies of your church, but don't want to be a Paladin or Ranger, this class is worth a look.

The Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/alchemist): The Alchemist is kind of a Dr. Jekyll class. They specialize in mixing volatile chemicals to make spell effects, but they can't normally apply those spell effects to other people without an optional class feature. I haven't had a chance to see this in action, but I would guess that the average Alchemist would be sort of a Mr. Hyde type, buffing himself with his extracts and mutagens into a brute type, and relying on bombs when he's squishy.
As a result, I'd compare him to the barbarian.

But then again, I haven't tested these. What do you all think?

Math_Mage
2010-06-29, 05:36 PM
I remember hearing somewhere that Crusaders are at least as much like Barbarians as like Paladins. Just a thought.

term1nally s1ck
2010-06-29, 05:40 PM
Archivist in for Cleric, Bard, Wizard.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 05:54 PM
I believe the OA Shaman has Improved Unarmed Strike and (spontaneous?) spellcasting in the same class, along with some other random bonuses. Might be a good base class for a player who wants to be that mystical Eastern "monk" without... failing... a lot. Personally, I'd rather go Tashalatora/Monastic Training/Ardent or Psychic Warrior, but for the aesthetically inclined (in terms of character construction) it's one complete base class. That, and it uses Vancian casting, which while not really an advantage, might be comfortable for more people than Psionics.

I don't agree, but then again I haven't actually played the OA Shaman, so I can't say. Someone try it out and send me the news about it, eh? :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 07:03 PM
The Mystic from Dragonlance Campaign Setting can also sub for Clerics.

Draz74
2010-06-29, 07:07 PM
Many wizard-types in fantasy literature don't really cast too many spells per day, and more often are adept at finding clever nonmagical solutions to various problems. In that light, Factotum actually can make an excellent Wizard substitute (assuming at least a Level 3 game).

Also, I'm particularly fond of Psions substituting into the Cleric role.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 07:10 PM
Many wizard-types in fantasy literature don't really cast too many spells per day, and more often are adept at finding clever nonmagical solutions to various problems. In that light, Factotum actually can make an excellent Wizard substitute (assuming at least a Level 3 game).

While that is true, the ones that don't push themselves to their limits on a regular basis also tend not to be adventurers.

Draz74
2010-06-29, 07:14 PM
While that is true, the ones that don't push themselves to their limits on a regular basis also tend not to be adventurers.

Yes, but who's to say 4 spells per day (at mid-levels) isn't "pushing oneself to the limits" in some settings? Lower-magic worlds and all that. (I had adventuring wizards in mind, not stay-in-the-tower-and-do-research types.)

And naturally the Factotum-"wizard" will be using a fair amount of scrolls and wands.

subject42
2010-06-29, 07:19 PM
And naturally the Factotum-"wizard" will be using a fair amount of scrolls and wands.

I hesitate to put Factotum anywhere on this list, because once you've put it somewhere, you've opened the justification to put it everywhere.

Zombieboots
2010-06-29, 07:44 PM
Ranger - Soulbow

Soulbow is a PrC that a Mindblade can go into but getting into it at 3rd level it might as well be a base class.

Draz74
2010-06-29, 07:47 PM
I hesitate to put Factotum anywhere on this list, because once you've put it somewhere, you've opened the justification to put it everywhere.

Heh. I see your point.

Some classes certainly need to be "distorted" more than others to be covered by Factotum, though. Barbarian most of all ... I mean, really, you're trying to convince me that your savage, crude, tough warrior is effective because of his massive Intelligence score?

And a Factotum who takes over the role of a Cleric won't be a great healer, even if his Know(religion) skill is awesome and he has some cleric-themed spells. A Factotum who takes over the role of Druid isn't going to be a very good shapeshifter, even if he has the nature skills and the spellcasting covered. (Especially if he uses his spells for druid-like battlefield control rather than Polymorph effects.)

There's a spectrum of how well the Factotum can take over each role, and Wizard is, IMO, pretty high on it.

More to the point, a Factotum in the wizard role just has more of the feeling of a good old-fashioned quintessential Wizard than most of the classes you do have listed under Wizard. In fact, the only classes I'd say can compete with Factotum fluff-wise, in the "scholarly caster" role, are Wizard, Artificer, and Archivist. And if you want a "scholarly caster" type while avoiding Tier 1 classes ... Factotum's really it. (I love, for example, Psions ... but their spellcasting mechanics have a very different feel, to me, than the book-learning type that is the Wizard.)

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 07:49 PM
Wu Jen also use a spellbook, so they're pretty much just Eastern-flavor Wizards.

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-29, 07:59 PM
Hello All,

Barbarian: Artificer

Bard: Artificer

Cleric: Artificer

Druid: Artificer

Fighter: Artificer

Monk: Artificer

Paladin: Artificer

Ranger: Artificer

Rogue: Artificer

Sorcerer: Artificer

Wizard: Artificer

because jokes about the extreme versatility of a class never get old

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 08:01 PM
because jokes about the extreme versatility of a class never get old

:smallannoyed:

*smack*

:smallbiggrin:

Seriously, the LAST thing you want to recommend to a less-skilled player is Artificer. Yes, they can be freakin' gods, but it's simply way too easy to have them turn into black holes of fail.

And I think we'd like to at least try to stay within the same bounds of flavor.

subject42
2010-06-29, 08:11 PM
You put forth a cogent and respectable argument, Draz. I've included Factotum under Wizard.

No more than that, though, lest we open the floodgates to indescribable madness.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 08:18 PM
Madness?

It's!

A!

Factotum!

*Brains-over-Brawn bull-rush into a pit*

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 08:26 PM
No factotum-Rogue?

Ok, ok.

subject42
2010-06-29, 09:02 PM
No factotum-Rogue?

Ok, ok.

That was actually the first thing that I put on the Rogue list.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:06 PM
I missed it. Wisdom is a dump stat. Sorry. Damn sneaky things.

Zaq
2010-06-29, 09:12 PM
Monk - Divine Mind
What? They're about equally effective.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 09:13 PM
Actually... I think I might have to give that one to the Monk. The Divine Mind is awful, and not to mention blasphemy against everything Psionic ever.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 09:14 PM
Monk - Divine Mind
What? They're about equally effective.

That was bad, you are bad, and you should feel bad. :smallwink:

How about Sorcerer -----> Dragonfire Adept? Sorcerers who like blasting but hate their (admittedly greater than a Wizard's) endurance will squeal over an at-will breath weapon. Throw in some at-will invocations for variety and you're set.

EDIT: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! Could have sworn that wasn't there last time I looked.

But more seriously, anyone who wants to experiment with "casting" would do well to try a Dragonfire Adept. Consider it a step underneath a new "umbrella" instead of shuffling around your current one.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:16 PM
How about Sorcerer -----> Dragonfire Adept? Sorcerers who like blasting but hate their (admittedly greater than a Wizard's) endurance will squeal over an at-will breath weapon. Throw in some at-will invocations for variety and you're set.

It's there, already.

PId6
2010-06-29, 10:11 PM
And a Factotum who takes over the role of a Cleric won't be a great healer, even if his Know(religion) skill is awesome and he has some cleric-themed spells.
UMD's on his list, isn't it? If you've a Wand of Lesser Vigor, what more do you need? :smallwink:


And if you want a "scholarly caster" type while avoiding Tier 1 classes ... Factotum's really it.
Well technically, Truenamer is kind of scholarly...

Draz74
2010-06-29, 10:11 PM
DFA is such beautiful, elegant mechanics ... and while it's a shame that it's so limited in scope, the flavor that it's stuck with is so beautifully perfect for a certain breed of Sorcerer. I definitely approve that matchup.


You put forth a cogent and respectable argument, Draz. I've included Factotum under Wizard.

No more than that, though, lest we open the floodgates to indescribable madness.

Sweet, now I'll see how many more I can convince you to add Factotum to. :smallwink:

The ones I probably wouldn't try to imitate with a Factotum are Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer. Before today, I never thought of doing a Paladin type either, but now I'm seeing some interesting possibilities there ... might require some multiclassing though. Rogue, Fighter, Ranger, Wizard, Bard, and even Monk are pretty do-able though.


Well technically, Truenamer is kind of scholarly...

Actually yes, flavor-wise Truenamer is an excellent Wizard substitute IMHO. I don't think I need to explain why I left it out of my argument though. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 10:12 PM
Warblade makes for a perfect Barbarian. Much better hit than Crusader IMHO.

Draz74
2010-06-29, 10:13 PM
Warblade makes for a perfect Barbarian.

I would agree, if only it had a good way to access nature-type skills and bow proficiency. :smallfrown:

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 10:15 PM
Warblade makes for a perfect Barbarian. Much better hit than Crusader IMHO.

Many people will be against high-Int barbarians, but I find that Warblade is much closer to Barbarian than Crusader is.

PId6
2010-06-29, 10:18 PM
Many people will be against high-Int barbarians, but I find that Warblade is much closer to Barbarian than Crusader is.
You don't actually need Int on a Warblade. A few of their class features are based off of it, but it won't actually hurt all that much dumping it.

Renchard
2010-06-30, 07:57 AM
I believe the OA Shaman has Improved Unarmed Strike and (spontaneous?) spellcasting in the same class, along with some other random bonuses. Might be a good base class for a player who wants to be that mystical Eastern "monk" without... failing... a lot. Personally, I'd rather go Tashalatora/Monastic Training/Ardent or Psychic Warrior, but for the aesthetically inclined (in terms of character construction) it's one complete base class. That, and it uses Vancian casting, which while not really an advantage, might be comfortable for more people than Psionics.

I don't agree, but then again I haven't actually played the OA Shaman, so I can't say. Someone try it out and send me the news about it, eh? :smallwink:

OA Shaman is prepared, not spontaneous.

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 09:12 AM
Hello All,
I have some players that would like to branch out a bit, and I thought that it would be nice to get a good suggestion list for non-core base classes that people could try if they felt like trying something new.

I have a quick list below. Does anyone have any ideas that I missed?

Haven't read through the thread, but whatever. This might help or not.

Some that might be lacking as of yet:

Barbarian: Psychic Warrior (arguably)

Bard: White Raven-focused Warblade

Monk: Ninja (would need some changes)

Rogue: Beguiler, definitely; Ninja could work too, but would need changing as above (Sudden Strike should just be Sneak Attack, light armour wouldn't hurt either, especially if they'd still get Wis bonus to AC just like the Swordsage)

Sorcerer: Dragon Shaman for buff-focused Sorcerers, arguably (doesn't use spells or invocations, but the fluff fits)

Wizard: I don't really see what so many spontaneous casters are doing here.


EDIT: for the Cleric, the Healer could work too, but it is... a bit too healing-focused (durr). You might want to give it something extra. I'm fond of doing away with Clerics and giving Healers Turn Undead and domains, myself.

subject42
2010-06-30, 09:48 AM
The reason for the spontaneous casters is that it's close to a Wizard (Vancian casting, low BAB, etc), but is just different enough to make for an interesting set of new constraints.