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Tyger
2010-06-29, 06:39 PM
Seriously? Don't get me wrong, I understand that a telescope is a very specifically crafted item, with a high degree of skill involved, but 1000 GP??? You gotta be kidding me!?!?! What on earth could justify the cost of this item?

The Mentalist
2010-06-29, 06:41 PM
Call it a useless waste of 1000gp, there's no real mechanics reason for it to be so expensive. Maybe if it were +10 to spot or something. On the other hand it's very handy with those magic paints that make things (name escapes me) it can pay for itself if I recall.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-29, 06:43 PM
If memory serves, there are actually quite a few insanely priced items. Also, if you try to set a standard for what 1 gp is worth, you'll never find something that makes sense for all items.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 06:45 PM
No mechanical justification for it, but I think the designers logic behind this is that the spyglass has a very specific and hard-and-time-consuming-to-make precise convex and concave set of lenses.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-29, 06:47 PM
I've heard people using anything from $10 to $20 for the equivalent of 1 GP.

So a spyglass might rul anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000. Which makes perfect sense if it were made by Galileo himself in his lifetime. But the default technology level of D&D (up to 3.5) is usually later than that. So that price is insane. Maybe a good one would run 500 GP. But something in the 200 - 300 GP range seems more reasonable.

Of course, I always use a silver based system. :)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 06:48 PM
Lenses lenses lenses. Glass is a luxury for the nobility back in the 14th century.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-29, 06:53 PM
Economics. A product is worth whatever someone will pay for it. Adventurers with millions of gp will pay 1000 gp for a spyglass, therefore that's how much it costs.

tahu88810
2010-06-29, 06:53 PM
That particular list was made with the idea that glass was expensive in the world of D&D.
It has since clearly been decided that it is not, and is more like our modern day glass, by many players, but that doesn't change the original price of something involving glass.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-29, 06:55 PM
Economics. A product is worth whatever someone will pay for it. Adventurers with millions of gp will pay 1000 gp for a spyglass, therefore that's how much it costs.

Of course, PCs with millions of gold pieces don't make sense anyway. Which is another conversation...

Knaight
2010-06-29, 06:57 PM
Lenses lenses lenses. Glass is a luxury for the nobility back in the 14th century.

And lenses in particular might be needing importing, though not as late as the 14th century. The middle east had very good lenses, getting them during the crusades meant either going even further out for trade, or dealing with hostilities making prices rise. Of course, in D&D it makes no sense, but in D&D economics, nothing makes sense.

arguskos
2010-06-29, 06:57 PM
Call it a useless waste of 1000gp, there's no real mechanics reason for it to be so expensive. Maybe if it were +10 to spot or something. On the other hand it's very handy with those magic paints that make things (name escapes me) it can pay for itself if I recall.
Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments is the item you're thinking of. :smallamused:

Also, by the by, spyglasses, yeah, stupid pricing scheme. No, I've nothing new to add.

oxybe
2010-06-29, 07:09 PM
And lenses in particular might be needing importing, though not as late as the 14th century. The middle east had very good lenses, getting them during the crusades meant either going even further out for trade, or dealing with hostilities making prices rise. Of course, in D&D it makes no sense, but in D&D economics, nothing makes sense.

Wizard: why hello mister lenscrafter, i would like to purchase a lens for my telescopic device i call a "telescope"!

Lenscrafter: why yes, of course i can craft you one my dear weaver of the arts, for you, naught but 600 GP for a pair and a month's time or so!

Wizard: that price & time is ridiculous, i'll give you 10 GP for the broken ones on the ground then

Lenscrafter: what...? whatever you stingy old bat.

Wizard: LOL FABRICATE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)!
https://people.mozilla.com/~dolske/tmp/awesome.png

Lensy: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU~

Mushroom Ninja
2010-06-29, 07:15 PM
1000 GP... that's 50000 chickens. Yeah, I'd say it's overpriced.

The Mentalist
2010-06-29, 07:21 PM
1000 GP... that's 50000 chickens. Yeah, I'd say it's overpriced.

I can just imagine this interaction:

PC: I'll trade you this spyglass for 50 000 chickens.
Chicken farmer: What can I do with it?
PC: Watch me walk away with your chickens

Heliomance
2010-06-29, 07:25 PM
Call it a useless waste of 1000gp, there's no real mechanics reason for it to be so expensive. Maybe if it were +10 to spot or something. On the other hand it's very handy with those magic paints that make things (name escapes me) it can pay for itself if I recall.

a +10 to spot would be worth 10000, not 1000.

Salbazier
2010-06-29, 07:28 PM
Many things in PHB are overpriced anyway :smallsigh:. Seeing the list of prices often makes me want to change the conversion rate. Even if gold are plentiful and cheaper in DnD, paying a gold coin for a waterskin just doesn't feel right in my mind :smallsigh:

drengnikrafe
2010-06-29, 07:30 PM
@Heliomancer: What about only spot checks for things on the fringe of your possible vision?
@Mentalist: I've described buying magic items in terms of chickens to my PCs before, just for the laugh, but I never thought about anything beyond that. As a result, I find that quote hilarious.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 07:46 PM
@Heliomancer: What about only spot checks for things on the fringe of your possible vision?
@Mentalist: I've described buying magic items in terms of chickens to my PCs before, just for the laugh, but I never thought about anything beyond that. As a result, I find that quote hilarious.

Remember that distance penalties to spot are linear, and the spyglass is a multiplier. At 200 feet, the spyglass reduces a spot penalty from -20 to -10.

balistafreak
2010-06-29, 07:48 PM
@Mentalist: I've described buying magic items in terms of chickens to my PCs before, just for the laugh, but I never thought about anything beyond that. As a result, I find that quote hilarious.

Take Chicken-Infested and make the dream a reality. :smallwink:

Knaight
2010-06-29, 07:49 PM
Many things in PHB are overpriced anyway :smallsigh:. Seeing the list of prices often makes me want to change the conversion rate. Even if gold are plentiful and cheaper in DnD, paying a gold coin for a waterskin just doesn't feel right in my mind :smallsigh:

The easiest thing to do being to bump gold up to platinum, silver up to gold, copper up to silver, and introduce iron as copper.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-29, 07:59 PM
Well if you consider spot checks take a -1 penalty per 10ft of distance. Usually the skill is only used to counter a hide check and not something obvious.

Now a spyglass magnifies images to twice their size right? well one can easily infer from that. A creature 200ft away appears only 100ft away. Effectively halving the distance penalty.

Edit: Hmm I see Snake has already remembered.

Salbazier
2010-06-29, 08:04 PM
The easiest thing to do being to bump gold up to platinum, silver up to gold, copper up to silver, and introduce iron as copper.

I'm thinking something like 10000 cp = 100 sp = 1 gp. Not realistic either (If i'm not wrong gold used to be around 15 times price of silver then it became around 50 times) but feels more right (and reduce 'the million gold' problem ... at least fo a while)

Edited for stupid mistake

tahu88810
2010-06-29, 08:05 PM
I'm thinking something like 100 cp = 100 sp = 100 gp.
So...
1 cp = 1 sp = 1 gp
Why bother having the different coins, then?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-29, 08:06 PM
Might want to edit your post you basically said to make them all equal.
Did you mean to say
100cp=1sp
100sp=1gp
100gp=1pp?

Knaight
2010-06-29, 08:13 PM
I'm thinking something like 100 cp = 100 sp = 100 gp. Not realistic either (If i'm not wrong gold used to be around 15 times price of silver then it became around 50 times) but feels more right (and reduce 'the million gold' problem ... at least fo a while)

Gold and silver have varied highly. In ancient Egypt Silver was actually worth more for a while, and the recent spike has put a way larger difference on it than there usually actually was, 15 is certainly more reasonable than 50 in most cases.

Salbazier
2010-06-29, 08:19 PM
So...
1 cp = 1 sp = 1 gp
Why bother having the different coins, then?

Doh! >< Post edited

@knaight

Yes, it is not a reasonable/realistic solution in different way, but well... at least it makes the prices feels slightly more sensible to me.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-29, 10:38 PM
Lets remember something important, 3rd edition currency is designed to be simple and to facilitate the gameplay.
If they went with 25cp=1sp, 12sp=1gp 50gp=1pp and 1 Electrium=5sp.
How would that be fun?

And really when your tailing up your treasure do you really count every type of coin, and track it all separately or do you simply covert it all to gp for ease of use?



Wizard: that price & time is ridiculous, i'll give you 10 GP for the broken ones on the ground then

Lenscrafter: what...? whatever you stingy old bat.

Wizard: LOL [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells
.
Fabricate doesn't repair objects it takes raw material and makes it into an object. It cost 333.33gp in raw materials to fabricate a spyglass.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 10:44 PM
Fabricate doesn't repair objects it takes raw material and makes it into an object. It cost 333.33gp in raw materials to fabricate a spyglass.
You're right - that spell is Mending.

A Cantrip.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-29, 11:01 PM
Seriously? Don't get me wrong, I understand that a telescope is a very specifically crafted item, with a high degree of skill involved, but 1000 GP??? You gotta be kidding me!?!?! What on earth could justify the cost of this item?
Then you're not in the market for the masterwork 8x model, at 16,000 gp?

TheThan
2010-06-30, 12:05 AM
The problem with the spy glass’s cost, is not that its expensive. It’s that its expensive compared to a lot of the magic items you could buy. Just take a look at the minor magic items you could buy for the same price (or less) or all the spell scrolls you could buy for the same cost. It really makes the cost of the spyglass (an otherwise mundane item) look ridiculously expensive.

Hague
2010-06-30, 12:13 AM
Seriously, prices in 3.5 are messed right up. Go ahead and read Arms and Equipment (3.0, I know...) and compare it to the prices in PHB. A pound of salted meat is a laborer's salary for a week...

SethFahad
2010-06-30, 12:30 AM
I can just imagine this interaction:

PC: I'll trade you this spyglass for 50 000 chickens.
Chicken farmer: What can I do with it?
PC: Watch me walk away with your chickens

:smallbiggrin: I laughed my {gough} out!!! The best lines in the last 3 months!!! BRAVO! You are good!!!

pingcode20
2010-06-30, 12:35 AM
The reason a spyglass is so expensive is that if one were to craft a sufficiently long set of spyglasses of different sizes to put end to end, you might actually be able to spot the sun.

The 1000gp asking price is to discourage that.

kpenguin
2010-06-30, 12:41 AM
Which makes perfect sense if it were made by Galileo himself in his lifetime. But the default technology level of D&D (up to 3.5) is usually later than that.

...what?

As far as I can tell, D&D is not at a 17th century technology level. For one thing, we're not looking at guns and pikemen in combat.

Zombimode
2010-06-30, 04:00 AM
...what?

As far as I can tell, D&D is not at a 17th century technology level. For one thing, we're not looking at guns and pikemen in combat.

No. Instead we see Level 20 Wizards leading hordes of IKEA Tarasques into battle, which is indefinatly more advanced then pike&shot warfare :smalltongue:

Seriously: the technology level is setting depedent, so making general statements about it is meaningless.


The 1000 gp spyglass is a legacy thing. It had cost this much at least at early as 2e. It was just taken over without any further thought.
And yes, it was overpriced in 2e as well.

Zen Master
2010-06-30, 04:17 AM
No mechanical justification for it, but I think the designers logic behind this is that the spyglass has a very specific and hard-and-time-consuming-to-make precise convex and concave set of lenses.

'Tis funny tho, cause if the random commoner makes a silver a day, you could have a thousand commoners slaving on building your one spyglass for a week, and still sell it at a decent profit.

Eloel
2010-06-30, 04:29 AM
'Tis funny tho, cause if the random commoner makes a silver a day, you could have a thousand commoners slaving on building your one spyglass for a week, and still sell it at a decent profit.

Except you need to pay Experts, not commoners, to make a fine-crafted thing. Commoners have Profession, Experts have Craft.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-30, 04:42 AM
Commoners have Craft, too.

Xuc Xac
2010-06-30, 05:19 AM
...what?

As far as I can tell, D&D is not at a 17th century technology level. For one thing, we're not looking at guns and pikemen in combat.

D&D has full plate armor and two-handed swords. Those were invented a few hundred years after guns and pikemen. D&D has about 2000 years of weapons development in use at the same time instead of older weapons falling out of use. It's just weird and gunpowder is conspicuously absent.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 05:30 AM
The DMG has stats and prices for guns- though that's "renaissance level".

Still, rapiers and full plate fit that late time period.

Stormwrack has stats for cannon- "bombards"

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 05:36 AM
And pikemen are from around the 15th century, if not earlier.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 05:38 AM
I wonder if some of the Ancient Greek spears were long enough to qualify as pikes?

Arms & Equipment does have some very "high tech" things, like blimps or ironclads- but blimps tend to have magic propellers rather than oil-driven ones.

ijffdrie
2010-06-30, 06:02 AM
I don't think lenzes were made from glass in the rough equivalent historical time period of D&D (somewhere between 13th and 17th rl century), but that they were made of cheaper clear gemstones(like goshenite), which would explain the cost, since you'd need pretty big pieces of very high quality.

And valuable gems are also a nice way to keep the amount of coins kind of low. So common(goshenite, tigerseye) gems would be 2 gp per karat, uncommon(aquamarine, calcite) gems 10 gp per karat and rare gems(diamond, demantoid, ruby) 100 gp per karat gems.

that would make a million gold coins about 10.000 karat, so 2 kilo's of small diamonds.

It's still kinda ridiculous, but at least you can carry it all around.

edit: not to forget that there are also low-magic settings, where the availability of magic items is quite different.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 06:05 AM
I don't think lenzes were made from glass in the rough equivalent historical time period of D&D (somewhere between 13th and 17th rl century), but that they were made of cheaper clear gemstones(like goshenite), which would explain the cost, since you'd need pretty big pieces of very high quality.

And valuable gems are also a nice way to keep the amount of coins kind of low. So common(goshenite, tigerseye) gems would be 2 gp per karat, uncommon(aquamarine, calcite) gems 10 gp per karat and rare gems(diamond, demantoid, ruby) 100 gp per karat gems.

that would make a million gold coins about 10.000 karat, so 2 kilo's of small diamonds.

It's still kinda ridiculous, but at least you can carry it all around.

Poor Durkon.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 06:10 AM
Wasn't there a rule that gems weigh 1/10th as much as coins?

panaikhan
2010-06-30, 07:11 AM
I think the only justification for things like this (and the water clock) is to compare them to the magic they replace.
"How much is a spell, to do exactly the same thing, and how much does it cost?
Hey, here's a PERMANENT version, that even works in anti-magic fields!"

Ossian
2010-06-30, 11:45 AM
Has anyone posted this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) yet? (first panel, top left)
:smallsmile:

Doug Lampert
2010-06-30, 01:07 PM
I've heard people using anything from $10 to $20 for the equivalent of 1 GP.

If you BELIEVE that common laborers can earn 1 sp a day and survive then it has to be a LOT more than that. America on $1/day just doesn't work.

But lets pretend we know that the rules say that craft can be used UNTRAINED and give MUCH higher expected incomes for people doing that as work for hire than for untrained labor. (Don't ask why untrained craft pays far better than untrained labor when anyone able to do untrained labor can also do untrained craft.)

Untrained craft by an average human gets 5 GP/week. This is presumably the equivalent of STARTING pay at McDonalds, which arround here is roughly $320 minus taxes, uniform expenses, and the like; figure actual take home of $240 or so.

This gives us 1 GP = $48 for hiring.

Moderns have a MUCH higher standard of living than D&D land commoners are supposed to, so the GP should buy MUCH less than the labor rate indicates. Say 1 GP ~= $20 would work.


The reason a spyglass is so expensive is that if one were to craft a sufficiently long set of spyglasses of different sizes to put end to end, you might actually be able to spot the sun.

The 1000gp asking price is to discourage that.

You can't use spyglasses to spot the sun. The sun's diameter is 864,938 miles. Which makes it about 30 size classes up from medium. So there's already a +120 to spot it.

But it's roughly 93,000,000 miles away, which gives -49,104,000,000 to spot based on -1/10'.

One spyglass magnifies things to twice their size. As we can see, x2 size is +4 to spot (it very definitely is NOT the same as half the distance, if that were the rule then you wouldn't need a spyglass at all to spot the sun in the first place).

But then we have the D&D multiplication rule, x2 size twice ISN'T x4, it's x3. So two spyglasses lined up DOESN'T give +8 to spot, instead it gives x3 to size which gives +4 or +8 depending on whether it trips a size class boundary or not.

We need roughly +49,103,999,880 to spot, which means we need to increase size by roughly 2^12,275,999,970, which means we need to have roughly 2^12,275,999,970-1 spyglasses lined up, which, will extend far, far past the sun, so you can't see it no matter how many spyglasses you have!


I wonder if some of the Ancient Greek spears were long enough to qualify as pikes?

The Macedonian Sarissa ran 18' or so. Which puts it on the long side for a pike.

DougL

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:17 PM
The Awl Pike in Dragon Compendium is described as "almost 15 ft long" and grants the wielder 15 ft reach.

So even using the shorter estimates for a sarissa, we can say that the ancient Greeks had an equivalent of "pikes" as opposed to longspears.

The weapon used in the Scottish schiltrom might also qualify as a "pike-type" weapon.

Doug Lampert
2010-06-30, 01:29 PM
The Awl Pike in Dragon Compendium is described as "almost 15 ft long" and grants the wielder 15 ft reach.

So even using the shorter estimates for a sarissa, we can say that the ancient Greeks had an equivalent of "pikes" as opposed to longspears.

The weapon used in the Scottish schiltrom might also qualify as a "pike-type" weapon.

Huh? A pike doesn't give a reach longer than the pike's length. Most weapons do give extra reach because you have arms, but you have to hold a pike well forward of the end for the ballance to work (there is a counterwieght, but you still need some leverage). An 18' pike MIGHT have given an effective 15' reach, but not a 15' pike. That's crazy talk. (Yes, I know, D&D rules aren't reality, but still...)

About the second point. I'd say any close formation spear-block that fought without shields was likely using what D&D calls pikes, if it doesn't let multiple ranks fight effectively (i.e. give reach in D&D terms) then why not use a shorter spear and be able to hold a shield too? Real spear blocks probably don't benefit much from 2hd power attack.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 01:34 PM
If you BELIEVE that common laborers can earn 1 sp a day and survive then it has to be a LOT more than that. America on $1/day just doesn't work. Peasants don't even have a daily use for money in a feudal system. Outside of cities, life was supported by self-sufficient farms and bartering for whatever they couldn't produce, and the rest was given to the Lord. They could go on for years without seeing a single coin.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 01:36 PM
Yeah- maybe they gave a dubious figure for the length of the awl pike. Even stretching the arms as far forward as they'll go with a lunge, 15 ft reach might be stretching it with a 15 ft weapon.

Doug Lampert
2010-07-01, 12:04 PM
Peasants don't even have a daily use for money in a feudal system. Outside of cities, life was supported by self-sufficient farms and bartering for whatever they couldn't produce, and the rest was given to the Lord. They could go on for years without seeing a single coin.

So what? D&D doesn't HAVE a non-cash economy in the PHB rules. That 1 sp is ALL YOU GET, we know this because PCs can hire NPCs and don't provide the non-cash income that lets someone live with no cash income. We also know this because there are RULES for what you get, and they don't include the non-cash income that allowed a peasant to live.

In D&D land "profession farmer" doesn't give you a non-cash harvest once per year that you barter for goods and services and use to pay taxes. Instead it gives you GP every week! Those are the rules. And D&D land simply gives unskilled labor 1 sp/day, and gives untrained crafters 50 sp/week, and gives these two quite clearly in the SAME section of the rules.

And as an RPG having the rules converted to cash is GOOD, because a sufficiently developed barter system is indistinguishable from a cash economy, and the use of tally sticks and the like tells us that the peasants did in fact have a sufficiently developed barter system.

Now, if you think 1 SP/day is "reasonable" because real peasants used a non-cash economy for many things, regardless of the fact that the rules DON'T use a non-cash economy and that 1 SP/day isn't a living wage, then explain just what about untrained crafting makes it different from unskilled labor and worth over 7 times as much!

Unskilled laborers in D&D land all starve to death or die of exposure (their choice, they can just about afford one of food or clothing and shelter). 1 sp/day isn't a living wage, but that's all they get. Fortunately no one need die since any unskilled laborer can be an untrained crafter instead!

Gruffard
2010-07-01, 12:34 PM
You can't use spyglasses to spot the sun. The sun's diameter is 864,938 miles. Which makes it about 30 size classes up from medium. So there's already a +120 to spot it.

But it's roughly 93,000,000 miles away, which gives -49,104,000,000 to spot based on -1/10'.

One spyglass magnifies things to twice their size. As we can see, x2 size is +4 to spot (it very definitely is NOT the same as half the distance, if that were the rule then you wouldn't need a spyglass at all to spot the sun in the first place).

But then we have the D&D multiplication rule, x2 size twice ISN'T x4, it's x3. So two spyglasses lined up DOESN'T give +8 to spot, instead it gives x3 to size which gives +4 or +8 depending on whether it trips a size class boundary or not.

We need roughly +49,103,999,880 to spot, which means we need to increase size by roughly 2^12,275,999,970, which means we need to have roughly 2^12,275,999,970-1 spyglasses lined up, which, will extend far, far past the sun, so you can't see it no matter how many spyglasses you have!
DougL
Nice. Epicly done. Love the math.

Susano-wo
2010-07-01, 12:36 PM
Wizard: why hello mister lenscrafter, i would like to purchase a lens for my telescopic device i call a "telescope"!

Lenscrafter: why yes, of course i can craft you one my dear weaver of the arts, for you, naught but 600 GP for a pair and a month's time or so!

Wizard: that price & time is ridiculous, i'll give you 10 GP for the broken ones on the ground then

Lenscrafter: what...? whatever you stingy old bat.

Wizard: LOL FABRICATE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)!
https://people.mozilla.com/~dolske/tmp/awesome.png

Lensy: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU~




LOL

also: [quibble] something not as valuable, like tin, I think, would make a much more likely currency than wasting iron on coinage[/qubble]

EDIT: I'm pretty sure a spyglass would actually make something appear closer, and thus decrease distance penalty, not increase size bonus. Though I do love those figures :P
also, the Dnd Multiplication rules do not apply to real world dimensions, only to abstract numerical multipliers

Scorpions__
2010-07-01, 12:51 PM
Wasn't there a rule that gems weigh 1/10th as much as coins?

Ooh, I'm interested, where would this be?





DM[F]R

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 01:01 PM
I've figured out where I got the idea- it wasn't 3rd ed but 4th ed. Astral Diamonds (gems used as currency) weigh 1/10 as much as coins.

JonestheSpy
2010-07-01, 02:12 PM
Really, this is just another example of DnD's high magic/low magic schizophrenia.

In a low magic, medieval tech world, a spyglass would be very valuable (as would a high level monk's ability to speak any language, and lots of other things people regard as worthless is a 'standard' game). But when you can walk into a store and buy all sorts of nifty magic goodies for far less, it seems ridiculous - unless, I suppose, spyglasses were simply regarded as expensive toys for people with too much money, instead of practical equipment.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-01, 02:12 PM
One spyglass magnifies things to twice their size. As we can see, x2 size is +4 to spot (it very definitely is NOT the same as half the distance, if that were the rule then you wouldn't need a spyglass at all to spot the sun in the first place).

But then we have the D&D multiplication rule, x2 size twice ISN'T x4, it's x3.
It would help if you noticed this part of the multiplication rules:
When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. So a spyglass does effectively halve the distance. You still can't see the sun without a lot more magnification than 2x, though.

Another_Poet
2010-07-01, 03:13 PM
The assumption of the PHB seems to be that wizards and other magic-item-crafters are rare anomalies in an otherwise medieval world. (This, despite the huge section on crafting/pricing magic items and the potential for almost anyone to get rich by smacking a few kobolds around, leveling, and repeating.)

With that assumption at the base of a world, the difficulty of making the lenses and assembling the device to actually work seems to be worth a premium. In a world like Tippyverse or even just Eberron, not so much.

1,000 gp is the equivalent of 12 - 21 years' income for a family of 3rd level commoners (depending on whether you assume 3, 4, or 5 members of the family are old enough/able bodied enough to work at any given time). That is not unreasonable for how long it would have taken real world serfs in the 1200's to pay for such a lavish item, though in reality they never would consider buying it.

So, if your D&D world is Medieval France with 3 wizards and a dozen dungeons of lost magic items, the price is reasonable.

If you D&D world is any normal campaign setting then.... *shrug* tell your merchants good job on the price-fixing.

Doug Lampert
2010-07-01, 04:01 PM
It would help if you noticed this part of the multiplication rules: So a spyglass does effectively halve the distance. You still can't see the sun without a lot more magnification than 2x, though.

It still doesn't halve the distance! It doubles the size, and those are VERY different effects by the rules. Still, drat, eliminating that aspect means that we ONLY need 12,275,999,969 spyglasses (give or take quite a few depending on your base spot modifier and the like).

So you CAN spot the sun using lined up spyglasses, all you need is to stack 12 billion+ of them end to end. But even a 1 cp price per glass is FAR more than is needed to make it practically impossible for any level's listed wealth by level.

So to spot the sun you need to take the really obscure feat "spyglass infested" and then spend a lot of time lining things up.

Hague
2010-07-01, 04:14 PM
This argument is stupid. You can see the sun. Just because you have rules for spotting things doesn't mean everything needs to be spotted. You'd need a spot check to denote any detail on the sun, however. You can campfires, similarly far away, you just wouldn't be able to tell any details about it.

Only if your spot check is opposed by a hide check (even an involuntary one) does it really matter. Anything with cover or concealment can be involuntarily hidden. Since the sun doesn't have cover, it can be spotted regardless of your check or distance. Since forests and tall plains grant cover, you need to make spot checks for them. Likewise, shadowy illumination in dungeons make you require a spot check due to concealment. Since you can't hide in the open, your spot check succeeds.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-01, 04:46 PM
Cloud Cover....

Also, If I can't spot the sun then it can't spot me. SNEAK ATTAAACK!

balistafreak
2010-07-01, 04:48 PM
This argument is stupid. You can see the sun. Just because you have rules for spotting things doesn't mean everything needs to be spotted. You'd need a spot check to denote any detail on the sun, however. You can campfires, similarly far away, you just wouldn't be able to tell any details about it.

... dude, we're being completely facetious. :smalltongue:

I mean this is along the same lines as healing by drowning and Monks being nonproficent with Unarmed Strikes.

Stompy
2010-07-01, 05:40 PM
...am I the only person wanting to take craft(glassblowing) just to make insane income?

Fax Celestis
2010-07-01, 05:41 PM
...am I the only person wanting to take craft(glassblowing) just to make insane income?

You don't blow lenses. You grind them.

Susano-wo
2010-07-01, 06:09 PM
Am I missing something about the way the spyglass works? does it say it doubles the size? I think it just talks about magnification, right? So its up to a DM to decide what effect that is...the most simulatory effect would be making it look like it was closer than it was...thus reducing distance penalty.

again, though, its a rather funny set of figures in any case

Corporate M
2010-07-01, 06:13 PM
Economics. A product is worth whatever someone will pay for it. Adventurers with millions of gp will pay 1000 gp for a spyglass, therefore that's how much it costs.
By that logic everything is free cause I'd just throw poison at the shopkeep's face and say "cheese it!" and we all grab loot and run. lol!

Susano-wo
2010-07-01, 06:15 PM
By that logic everything is free cause I'd just throw poison at the shopkeep's face and say "cheese it!" and we all grab loot and run. lol!

Yeah, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Now the town guard/local merchant's guild, etc may stop you from doing it twice:smallyuk:

puppyavenger
2010-07-01, 06:20 PM
Yeah, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Now the town guard/local merchant's guild, etc may stop you from doing it twice:smallyuk:

not if you're high level and not playing in FR.

Kaun
2010-07-01, 06:26 PM
isnt this just a blow back from 2e? I remember there being a water clock on this gear list as well that was worth a small fortune.

Susano-wo
2010-07-01, 07:29 PM
not if you're high level and not playing in FR.

Hey, if you're willing to throw acid in the shopkeep's face over what amounts to pocket change at your level, what's to say the merchant's guild couldn't hire someone else of your calibur to hunt you? (or a couple of someone elses, just to make sure)

Cybren
2010-07-01, 07:44 PM
Lets remember something important, 3rd edition currency is designed to be simple and to facilitate the gameplay.
If they went with 25cp=1sp, 12sp=1gp 50gp=1pp and 1 Electrium=5sp.
How would that be fun?


OR D&D has a base unit "the silver" or something. All prices are listed in that. Value of coins is wholly flavor.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-01, 09:08 PM
You don't blow lenses. You grind them.
Actually you do both. The way you got a piece of glass of approximately even thickness started with blowing. You first get a globe, which becomes a cylinder by rolling on a table as you blow, then the cylinder is cut along its length and the still-soft glass is flattened on the table. Windows and lenses precede the widespread adoption of float glass.

BenInHB
2010-07-01, 09:09 PM
Yeah- maybe they gave a dubious figure for the length of the awl pike. Even stretching the arms as far forward as they'll go with a lunge, 15 ft reach might be stretching it with a 15 ft weapon.

A dagger has a 5ft reach...

Curmudgeon
2010-07-01, 09:13 PM
A dagger has a 5ft reach...
Nope; a dagger has no reach. The person wielding it may have some, though.

Another_Poet
2010-07-02, 02:13 PM
You don't blow lenses. You grind them.


Hey, what a man does with his lenses behind closed doors is his own business. Don't judge me!! :smallsmile:

jiriku
2010-07-02, 02:47 PM
If you BELIEVE that common laborers can earn 1 sp a day and survive then it has to be a LOT more than that. America on $1/day just doesn't work.

America on $1/day doesn't work, but the average person in quite a few other modern-day countries does make $1/day or even less. Most of Africa is in that range, and for many of the poorest countries in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, that's actually quite a believable figure.

Entirely apart from modern vs. medieval technology levels, the mere fact that nearly all Americans always have plenty of food and live under a roof that keeps out the rain is really an aberration, not the norm for the world.

tl;dr If it seems like 1 sp/day for the typical D&D commoner kept him right at the edge of starvation and/or destitution, that's probably because most commoners in subsistence countries (even in modern times) are right at the edge of starvation and/or destitution.

Doug Lampert
2010-07-05, 05:52 PM
Am I missing something about the way the spyglass works? does it say it doubles the size? I think it just talks about magnification, right? So its up to a DM to decide what effect that is...the most simulatory effect would be making it look like it was closer than it was...thus reducing distance penalty.

again, though, its a rather funny set of figures in any case

The SRD entry for Spyglass says "Spyglass: Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size."

That's the entire description of what it does. So yes, it does say twice their size, which means a +4 to spot.

And as for the feeble claim that you don't need to spot it because it's not hidden, that ignores completely the encounter distance rules in the DMG which quite clearly require spot rolls against non-hidding targets at long range. I'd say the sun CLEARLY qualifies as long range.

Additionally, yes, I don't take this seriously, but in fact this sort of analysis serves the useful purpose of reminding people that the rules can have errors and are often outright STUPID! The effects of x2 range and x2 size on things like spot should be identical, they are not, this is bad, it means that ANY long range spot will be totally broken on what you can or can't see and that in this particular application you can't trust the rules. That's an important thing to know.

Finally, people in 3rd world countries earning $1/day are almost always minor children getting most of their support from their parents if you look into it. That's actually not a living wage ANYWHERE, and if it is a living wage then somewhere then the $ to GP conversion used is broken in that location. The fact is that D&D incomes work well with the untrained craft level of income and the listed prices, and are totally broken with the unskilled labor rules. As above, the rules aren't perfect. In this case they wanted to say "PCs can't earn money without spending ranks in a skill" but they also wanted to allow unskilled craft, so they screwed up.

Susano-wo
2010-07-05, 07:08 PM
well, then, yeah, the Raw would be doubling the size. so, LOL :smallbiggrin:

(And yeah, I didn't think you were seriously arguing for adjudicating things that way. :P)

Morithias
2010-07-05, 10:58 PM
The way I see it. "Double the size" as per the spyglass's effect. In game play should basically translate to "treat spotted creature or object as one size larger".

Reason being is that the enlarge person spell is said to double the size of a creature and make it one size larger.

so if you were to use the spyglass to spot on a halfling hiding, it would give it a -4 penalty to it's hide check.

However I do find this very silly myself. Seeing how a magical item that gives you a +3 on ALL spot checks is only 900 gp.

Outside of using it to say...check the patrols of a fortress from a distance, I see little reason to use it.