Low STR high CON

[Salbazier]

How do you describe a character with, say 8 STR and 20 CON? What kind of characteristic he/she has? Is there any archetype for comparison/example, like how the clueless professor is the image for low WIS high INT character?

[Mongoose87]

Can take any punch you throw at him, but he'll never throw a decent one back.

[Critical]

Um, very fat?

[Baidas Kebante]

Mick Foley?

[molten_dragon]

I'd probably picture it as something like a marathon runner. In great shape, able to run all day, very healthy, but not necessarily all that strong.

[gallagher]

i would say very lithe. as someone previously said, a runner is an excellent example, as would be some swimmers. no, they arent build, and they dont look like they could fight well, but that isnt their strategy. their goal is to be able to stay in the fight longer than you, because you will probably tire out first

[Amphetryon]

A good subset of endurance athletes might be seen as embodying this archetype, in many ways.

[lsfreak]

Long-distance running, modern dancing. Both have extreme strength in certain parts of the body, but the D&D definition of 'strength' fits much more to the type of strength found in football players, boxers, or weight trainers.

[drengnikrafe]

How is this person's dexterity? I feel like that will have a bearing in how they turn out too. Also, I have a hard time calling 8 STR "low". It's more on the lower side of average.

[balistafreak]

I know the inverse to be extremely common: those sports players who keep injuring themselves. And I'm not talking about on the field, I'm talking about tripping down a single step and breaking their leg. Like, seriously, epic fail.

No, these were not relatively isolated incidents. All of my sporty friends have suffered serious injury from some relatively trivial accident that should have let them literally bounce and laugh.

As for the actual example? ... probably me. I know I'm not strong, I can't run fast, my core stability sucks, and everyone outdoes me on the field. I push myself as fast as I know I can maintain but... yeah.

Yet at the end of the day, I'm still the guy standing on his feet, saying, "C'mon, one more round of basketball." Or am I just extremely tactical about managing my fatigue, thus making me have a high Int/Wis? :smallconfused:

Well, that, and I've gotten sick like twice in my life, whereas friends around me drop to everything from the common cold to pneumonia to allergies to chronic migraines to... you name it.

Disclaimer: this is all anecdotal and should be treated as such.

As to being merely very fat, you have to be very fat in a specific way. As in, very fat, but from healthy foods, so that you have all the vitamins/immune system strength to fight off an infection, and then again that's really not reliant on you being fat. Most of your energy is dealt with in terms of sugar through the glucose/glycogen (?) balance in your blood, that's actually mostly regulated through your liver. (This is why diabetes (more Type 1 than 2, but both regardless) is so serious, as opposed to "mere" weight gain.)

Disclaimer: I speak from random bits and pieces I may or may not have read about, and this is not sound medical advice from an educated doctor. Give me ten or so years, I'm working on that. :smalltongue:

I would measure Dexterity on fine motor skills, (physical) flexibility, and ability to respond to realization. Note that I did not say "reflexes". You can realize that you need to do something and yet be unable to act, and your body can react without you thinking. (This is why I've always glowered at Initiative and it's Dex-only bonus. It'd be nice to have a split in the surprise round, where people who make their Dex-check aren't flatfooted but only those who make their Int/Wis check (not sure which, maybe highest?) can act, and only those who make both can act/not be flatfooted.) Nothing to do with "speed". No seriously, look at Usian Bolt and deduce that he has the physical ability to play Chopin's Revolutionary Etude because he can run really fast. Not saying he's not able to, just saying that I find the latter two and "speed" to be completely segregated.

[Claudius Maximus]

Um, very fat?

Doesn't quite work, since a high Con character can run great distances and handle high temperatures with relative ease. Not so for fat people.

[Salbazier]

How is this person's dexterity? I feel like that will have a bearing in how they turn out too. Also, I have a hard time calling 8 STR "low". It's more on the lower side of average.

Well, it is 'low' compared to the CON. "Lower side of average STR high CON" is bit too long :smalltongue:

Let's say the DEX is between the STR and CON. So, 14.

[Mr.Moron]

I think they'd look something like Marathon Runner.

[fryplink]

I'd think a lean person

or the aforementioned distance runner (which is only sort of true, being a competitive distance runner myself, weight training really helps increase you endurance, but the archetype is probably closest to a distance runner)

[Tanuki Tales]

Doesn't quite work, since a high Con character can run great distances and handle high temperatures with relative ease. Not so for fat people.

Now they could be very large and thick. Like Wilson Fisk.

[drengnikrafe]

As a cross country runner myself, I'm regularly around people who are close to marathon runners. A lot of them get sick or injured almost randomly, and sit out for a month or more. I have a bit of a hard time thinking of the marathon runner as that high of a constitution. On the other hand, I can't think of anything that's closer to those stats than that.

[HunterOfJello]

An obese Gnome.

[Snake-Aes]

Con is often associated with physical health and associated beauty. It's a lean person, with great hair and skin(these would be brittle if the person was sickly or malnourished).

[Salbazier]

Well 20 is beyond normal human anyway. So, mythical level marathon runner?

[subject42]

Another alternative is the person who's so intense/crazy that he just won't lay down and properly die.

Take Rasputin as an example. You don't get poisoned, stabbed, shot, stabbed, beaten, stabbed, drowned, shot, poisoned again, boiled in oil, flayed, shot with arrows, stabbed again for good measure, and dropped into a cage full of rabid slow lorises without having a fairly high CON score.

[cupkeyk]

Uhhh, Wilson Fisk has a stregth of 4 in Marvel's range of 1 to 7. That is already pretty amazing considering he is human (not a mutant, alien, or altered human). Henry McCoy, Beast has strength 4.

+1 for the marathon runner/dancesport champion.

[Il_Vec]

Those south-american people who trail up frozen mountains and salt deserts? They can walk around all day long, in hazardous environments, and they feel OK. I don't know how well is their benchpress, but it looks like, as far as stereotypes go, that works.

[Salbazier]

Another alternative is the person who's so intense/crazy that he just won't lay down and properly die.

Take Rasputin as an example. You don't get poisoned, stabbed, shot, stabbed, beaten, stabbed, drowned, shot, poisoned again, boiled in oil, flayed, shot with arrows, stabbed again for good measure, and dropped into a cage full of rabid slow lorises without having a fairly high CON score.

Hey, that's a good example:smallbiggrin:I always like the story of Rasputin's death. Although... I think what you said is is *a bit* more that what actually happened

[Wonton]

I'm reminded of that Greek myth where a messenger had to deliver some urgent news, and he spent 3 days and 3 nights (or something) running non-stop, got where he needed, delivered the message, and died instantly.

[cupkeyk]

was his name marathion or is that the name of the city?

[subject42]

Those south-american people who trail up frozen mountains and salt deserts? They can walk around all day long, in hazardous environments, and they feel OK. I don't know how well is their benchpress, but it looks like, as far as stereotypes go, that works.

Having spent some time hiking around in Peru, you're not kidding about the endurance of some of the indigenous people.

When we were at Machu Picchu our guide was an ethnic Quechuan. She was probably about 4' 10" tall and fairly petite. At one point I was following her up a long grade of steps and started getting a bit winded by the time I reached the top.

She took a moment at the summit to turn around and continue her narrative about the ruins, but stopped in mid-sentence when she looked down the steps.

It turned out that I was the only person in the traveling party who actually made it up the steps. The rest of them were sprawled out on the stones, gasping for breath and trying not to pass out.

Later on she mentioned that she walked up those steps about 20 times a day.

[balistafreak]

It turned out that I was the only person in the traveling party who actually made it up the steps. The rest of them were sprawled out on the stones, gasping for breath and trying not to pass out.

Later on she mentioned that she walked up those steps about 20 times a day.

I blame American tourists. They have no Constitution. :smallwink:

Similarly, when I toured the Great Wall of China I was the only one of my family who wanted to keep going. And we're not talking the flat easy parts of the Great Wall that most tourists walk around and (pretend) to enjoy, we're talking the parts of the wall that scaled mountainsides. In straight lines. Because how else are you going to wall off a mountain?

So yeah, high Con.

[Salbazier]

was his name marathion or is that the name of the city?

Marathon is the site of battle. The message is "Rejoice, we are victorious" or something like that.


Having spent some time hiking around in Peru, you're not kidding about the endurance of some of the indigenous people.

When we were at Machu Picchu our guide was an ethnic Quechuan. She was probably about 4' 10" tall and fairly petite. At one point I was following her up a long grade of steps and started getting a bit winded by the time I reached the top.

She took a moment at the summit to turn around and continue her narrative about the ruins, but stopped in mid-sentence when she looked down the steps.

It turned out that I was the only person in the traveling party who actually made it up the steps. The rest of them were sprawled out on the stones, gasping for breath and trying not to pass out.

Later on she mentioned that she walked up those steps about 20 times a day.

Just ... wow.

[Wonton]

Marathon is the site of battle. The message is "Rejoice, we are victorious" or something like that.

The messenger's name is Pheidippides... man, those Greeks sure knew how to name people. :smallbiggrin:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Just a note on marathon runnings: it's what humans do best. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041123163757.htm) It just doesn't come up a lot in much of anything as it does take a bit of work to get to that, but, hey, train for a year or so and you can out run a deer.

[Runestar]

Possibly very fit (say they do a lot of exercises such as yoga and taichi), but very little body strength.

Say someone who runs very regularly but hardly does weights? :smalltongue:

[Dracons]

In 3.0, I had a dwarf sorcerer with a toad familar. Total con was 22 at level 1. It was awesome to play a wizard with 13 HP. (Took Toughness feat...).

I then multiclass to barbarian eventally. I went to like sorcerer 5, barbarian 10. Had like 34 con in the end with 197 HP in the end.

[Jorda75]

A stocky dwarf would be another example that might work. He's round and low to the ground and tough as stone, but his small arms (relatively) and general body shape make him ill suited to swinging a weapon or punching you in the face. He can walks for days on end but sudden bursts of strength (like Jump or the like) are beyond him.

[OracleofWuffing]

Think Kirby. I mean, the Kirby's Dreamland Kirby. The one where you couldn't copy abilities and whatnot, your best offense is you have to let your enemy attack and use that against them. Other than that, you're blowing air at your enemies and maybe sliding into them.

[AslanCross]

It takes me a lot of effort to bench 15kg, but my endurance is pretty good and I've never been sick enough to be hospitalized. I've taken some pretty bad falls with no more than a few scratches and my wounds heal pretty quickly. A guy with 20 Con will be something like that, just more extreme.

[Spiryt]

It takes me a lot of effort to bench 15kg

With two hands? Lying on the back, classic bench? :smallconfused:

Also, with D&D stats, 20 Con will also mean tremendous resistance to poison, wounds acid, fire, and tons of stuff, something that average "long distance runner" type doesn't seem like at all. Actual endurance is only small facet of 3.5 Constitution score.

So, like some people mentioned - someone not necessarily "runner like" just with extremal health, able liver, kidneys, heart, with vitality that simply keeps him alive.

So things that are not usually possible to spot with the eye.

Pretty small stature, to give 8 strength.

[Harperfan7]

They would be lightly built, as in, a skeleton wrapped in a thin amount of muscle. They would NOT be fat (low % of body fat). They would be very hard looking, like if you touched them their skin wouldn't give much at all (maybe like styrofoam or something). They would have clear muscle definition, but only from the lack of fat.

How big their skeleton and frame is depends on other factors, like HD size and base fortitude save. It can also vary depending on relative CON to HD size, where a d4 with 20 con will be more extreme looking (fatless, hard) than a d10 with 20 con (like a dwarf, who may have 5% body fat, which is still like 10 lbs. on the average dwarf. This would keep him from looking all that ripped despite being very solid under that fat.)

[Kiero]

I'd probably picture it as something like a marathon runner. In great shape, able to run all day, very healthy, but not necessarily all that strong.

This, simply put. Check out extreme endurance athletes, they're invariably built like sticks.

[Gorilla2038]

Ever see one of those old dudes, thats like 5 feet high and fought in more wars than you've even heard of, with tattoos and VD from each of those points? Thats the type, the type who gets cancer, then goes and smokes a pack of cig's for spite.

[Spiryt]

They would be lightly built, as in, a skeleton wrapped in a thin amount of muscle. They would NOT be fat (low % of body fat). They would be very hard looking, like if you touched them their skin wouldn't give much at all (maybe like styrofoam or something). They would have clear muscle definition, but only from the lack of fat.



Such type on the other hand would probably not be very resistant to poison and other things, due to low body mass...

With low body fat he won't be cold, famine, thirst resistant at all...

Many contradicting things, because body obviously cannot do all at the same high level.

That's the problem with D&D simplicity rather than concept in general though.

[Bharg]

Coordination is also important for the strength score!
Con means "Ha, I stopped your fist with my face. No problem!" and "I can run for two minutes before I collapse..."

STR 8 CON 20 leaves a lot space for imagination...

[Rainbownaga]

Agreeing with spiryt, endurance is such a small part of the equation that it seems irrellevent (in actual game terms, how often do you use constitution scores to determine long-distance-running as opposed to not-dying).

When I saw that I thought of homer simpson- virtually unkillable, but not really capable of fighting with any skill or competance (except as per plot).

The same is probably true of Xander from Buffy.

[Spiryt]

Now that I think about it "simplest" choice wouldn't have much to do with long distance runner - long distance runner would be specific feats and stuff to represent someone trained specifically to to low intensity activities for a long time - like marathon running.

Very high Con would be someone with actually quite large frame, quite a lot of fat - so he would have some mass to resist strikes, poisons, diseases, eating bad stuff. To have good energy reserves when he needs it.

With a solid muscles, but low twitch ones, and untrained rest, so he's not strong at all, quite opposite, but endurable, and pretty big framed.

With great cardio shape so he could carry that fat without problem. With some good sense what's good for him, so he's extremely vital, vital and vital.

Being ripped, fatless and skinny won't really be really healthy.

[hamishspence]

This kind of "plump but formidable" character is quite common in fiction. Sergeant Jackrum in Monstrous Regiment is one example of the trope.

[Spiryt]

I recall Jackrum being fat as uck, not "plump" :smallamused:

Anyway, one doesn't really have to search in fiction, somehow plump can be very good shape for human, it's modern culture that pictures ripped as super healthy.

http://lordn.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/6a00d8349f951869e201053685dd9f970c-320wi.jpg

Being overweight is bad indeed, but some fat here and there is just natural, especially if human large overaly.

[hamishspence]

True- but it didn't inconvenience Jackrum: "It's like having yer own armour" :smallbiggrin:

I.E.- extra hit points.

That said- winners of the World's Strongest Man competitions tend to have a similar shape (only slightly slimmer) so it can account for high STR as well as high CON.

[Spiryt]

But they cannot really go on very long for example - so it cannot be stated like that, 3.5 is simple, and really any system trying to represent things very accurately is going to be cluster... you know.


Anyway, I guess that TS character can be portrayed in many ways.

It's D&D, if 6'0 190 lbs human and 3'0 30 pounds halfling fighters can have easily the same 14 strength, then really big human having really poor strength doesn't seem so weird at all. :smalleek:

[Killer Angel]

Having spent some time hiking around in Peru, you're not kidding about the endurance of some of the indigenous people.

When we were at Machu Picchu our guide was an ethnic Quechuan. (snip)

This, which is valid also for Nepalese guides / Sherpa. Impressive endurance.
Also, this is even more true if you see the thing in a fantasy setting ala middle age: with no medicines, no antibiothics, etc., the average constitution (immunity system) was probably higher than what we could expect.

[Snake-Aes]

This, which is valid also for Nepalese guides / Sherpa. Impressive endurance.
Also, this is even more true if you see the thing in a fantasy setting ala middle age: with no medicines, no antibiothics, etc., the average constitution (immunity system) was probably higher than what we could expect.

Mostly people simply died more and reproduced about yearly from the age of 15 onwards.

[Spiryt]

This, which is valid also for Nepalese guides / Sherpa. Impressive endurance.
Also, this is even more true if you see the thing in a fantasy setting ala middle age: with no medicines, no antibiothics, etc., the average constitution (immunity system) was probably higher than what we could expect.

With no sugar, refined food, chemicals, toxicity, yes in many ways people would be much healthier, but middle age human was already pretty civilized one, so he would be exposed to many of bad stuff already.

Particularly like eating some bread and gruel all year around.

Well situated people could actually be very healthy indeed.

[Killer Angel]

Mostly people simply died more and reproduced about yearly from the age of 15 onwards.

Oh, that's true, but with no antidotes, and lots of diseases, plagues, lack of food, etc, the weak ones died, while the survivors were certainly stronger. Actually, with proper medicines, the natural selection don't work in this way.
So, probably, if now the standard Con is 10, in the past it was 11 or 12, 'cause with Con 8, you were doomed to die very quickly.

[subject42]

Particularly like eating some bread and grue all year around.

It is very dark (ages), you are likely to be eating a grue.

[Spiryt]

It was supposed to be gruel, wasn't it?:smalltongue:

[subject42]

It was supposed to be gruel, wasn't it?:smalltongue:

Yes, but I enjoy the image conjured up by your misspelling more than the correct spelling.

[Serpentine]

(sorry about ignoring the rest of the thread)

The image that comes to my mind is basically a Gandhi-like figure: a small, frail, wizened man who could barely crush a butterfly, but who is full of a quiet endurance and toughness, who would walk barefoot a mile though a desert in the middle of summer without breaking a sweat.

[Flyingzeke]

It was supposed to be gruel, wasn't it?:smalltongue:

No, he make a Zork reference. "It is very dark. You are likely to be eaten by a Grue."

[Spiryt]

(sorry about ignoring the rest of the thread)

The image that comes to my mind is basically a Gandhi-like figure: a small, frail, wizened man who could barely crush a butterfly, but who is full of a quiet endurance and toughness, who would walk barefoot a mile though a desert in the middle of summer without breaking a sweat.

That honestly looks more like mental resilience, likely high Wisdom and similar stuff in D&D terms.

Lacks many aspects of Con, like mentioned in the thread.

[Serpentine]

Add "tough as leather" somewhere in that description.

[hamishspence]

Sounds about right- while Con drops with age, a person who starts with a high Con could be the "hard as leather" old character.

[paddyfool]

This, which is valid also for Nepalese guides / Sherpa. Impressive endurance.
Also, this is even more true if you see the thing in a fantasy setting ala middle age: with no medicines, no antibiothics, etc., the average constitution (immunity system) was probably higher than what we could expect.

Sherpas also clearly have some feat/skill trick/class ability that allows them to base carrying capacity off Con, rather than Str, given their ability to hike up mountains all day carrying 200 to 300lb packs by a strap around their heads.


Coordination is also important for the strength score!
Con means "Ha, I stopped your fist with my face. No problem!" and "I can run for two minutes before I collapse..."

I think you mean "days", as in, what people do when they're running the trailwalker (a 63 mile race, done in hilly terrain at whatever time of year is harshest - competitors have 48 hours to complete it, and the full team of 4 must make it all the way or be disqualified; the Gurkhas thought it up).

[Serpentine]

Sounds about right- while Con drops with age, a person who starts with a high Con could be the "hard as leather" old character.Throw in "smokes like a chimney (or similar) without the slightest sign of bad effects", "has the body of a man half his age", "drinks like a horse" and "hasn't had so much as a sniffle in 20 years", too.

[AslanCross]

With two hands? Lying on the back, classic bench? :smallconfused:



Yes. I'm not that big. I'm sure I could do more, just that I don't particularly enjoy it enough to try. (And I typically don't have a spotter so I don't want to push it)

[KnightOfV]

I played a low level Wizard with 8 STR and 16 CON recently. I played off his high CON as high determination to push himself physically. Yea, he sucked in a sword fight and couldn't lift much, but he could stay up all night studying, march all day if need by to satisfy his curiosity about what was around the next ridge, and refused to lay down and die just because he took a sword wound or two. He could hold his breath longer, go without food longer, and even resist poison because he was just that determined to keep going. "I can't stop now! There's still more to learn!" was his personal mantra.

[BenInHB]

Ever see one of those old dudes, thats like 5 feet high and fought in more wars than you've even heard of, with tattoos and VD from each of those points? Thats the type, the type who gets cancer, then goes and smokes a pack of cig's for spite.

These are some of the hardest dudes on the planet and they are a dying breed. I remember my Grandpa at 80+ years old carrying a 50lbs bag of concrete and when my aunt to him to stop, that he was too old to do it you know what he did?? He grabbed a second bag!! That's 100lbs!! If you've ever lifted a sandbag you know how much more difficult it is than just grabbing a dumbell, the weight is awkward. He was only like 5'4 or 5'5 but tougher than nails.

These guys are a perfect example of a high CON score. They can work hard all day with no breaks and no complaints. As far as resistance to poison these are the type of guys who drink so hard that there organs are actually preserved instead of damaged by the alcohol. They epitomize that old school "rub some dirt on it and walk it off" attitude about getting hurt and have lived through actual battles and lived to tell about it.

I don't think our generation is built of the same stuff.